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Oso Peresoso
RisingSuns
30
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Posted - 2013.06.27 21:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
Its pretty well understood that logi suits with stacked HP have ridiculous combat survivability, damage, and utility. Most notably the proto caldari logi with heavy-suit level EHP, decent armor, and Duvolle AR. To address this issue of logis not logibroing and generally being better than assault at assaulting, I propose a change in the logi weapon slot. Logis would get a single sidearm slot and NO light weapon. OFC, everyone will just spec into proto SMGs to much the same effect, but I think it would fix much of what is wrong.
I figure someone's had this idea already. Thoughts? |
darkiller240
INGLORIOUS-INQUISITION
19
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Posted - 2013.06.27 21:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
What is wrong with you Do you hate logis or something? |
Oso Peresoso
RisingSuns
31
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Posted - 2013.06.27 21:30:00 -
[3] - Quote
darkiller240 wrote:What is wrong with you Do you hate logis or something?
No, in fact I think logi gameplay is quite fun. Its just anything with very high utility and very high survivability should suffer some modest penalties in mobility or offensive capability. Logis right now don't particularly have either, making them flat out better for a number of roles intended for other suits. |
Godin Thekiller
Ghost Wolf Industries Alpha Wolf Pack
216
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Posted - 2013.06.27 21:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
No, make it to where, like LLV's, they get a damage nerf from their weapons. 20% or so.
Peace, Godin |
KOBLAKA1
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
100
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 22:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
i like godin's idea, i suggested this once before and got flamed pretty hard (surprise surprise) https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=877950#post877950 |
Draco Cerberus
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
165
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 22:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
Oso Peresoso wrote:Its pretty well understood that logi suits with stacked HP have ridiculous combat survivability, damage, and utility. Most notably the proto caldari logi with heavy-suit level EHP, decent armor, and Duvolle AR. To address this issue of logis not logibroing and generally being better than assault at assaulting, I propose a change in the logi weapon slot. Logis would get a single sidearm slot and NO light weapon. OFC, everyone will just spec into proto SMGs to much the same effect, but I think it would fix much of what is wrong.
I figure someone's had this idea already. Thoughts? My survivability as a LogiBro is just as high as an assault's or a heavy's. Often a lot lower due to the lack of a sidearm. I do both logibro activities as well as assault activities. If it's the lack of a nanite injector you are complaining about then read this very carefully...if your suit is worth more than mine (and I seriously doubt it is) then you should be more careful and step into one of my nanohives before you die, not expect me to be around to pick you up, if you are dead then so is my bullet shield and I now need to use my rifle not my nanite injector regardless of the fact that you standing in front of the bullets for another 15 seconds may save my bacon just to allow you one more death. Use an uplink, come back to the battle fully repped and supplied and in a suit better suited to the situation you are about to find yourself in sir.
Currently suffering penalties for movement and survivability like a champ. |
Justin Tymes
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
155
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 00:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
>Sees that Calogi is OP >Wants to nerf all Logibros because of it
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Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows
430
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 00:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
I personally agree with you that logi having only a Sidearm would bring them more in line with a Support role.
However, many others have cried bloody murder every time it gets brought up.
They're intended for Support, not Assault, they should have only secondary combat viability. |
Justin Tymes
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
155
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 00:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:I personally agree with you that logi having only a Sidearm would bring them more in line with a Support role.
However, many others have cried bloody murder every time it gets brought up.
They're intended for Support, not Assault, they should have only secondary combat viability.
This mentally that the Logi suit is just meant to stand there and rep people is the problem. If that was the case, CCP would have never created the Amarr suit. Logibro were clearly meant to be a utility unit, not a healing slave. I haven't seen a single reason yet to nerf the Logibro to Sidearms other than "Calogi is OP", which has nothing to do with the rest of the Logi suits. |
Cass Barr
Red Star. EoN.
384
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 01:15:00 -
[10] - Quote
Was a bad idea last week, and the week before that.
Still a bad idea.
Will continue to be a bad idea next week and the following one. |
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Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows
430
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 01:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
Justin Tymes wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:I personally agree with you that logi having only a Sidearm would bring them more in line with a Support role.
However, many others have cried bloody murder every time it gets brought up.
They're intended for Support, not Assault, they should have only secondary combat viability. This mentally that the Logi suit is just meant to stand there and rep people is the problem. If that was the case, CCP would have never created the Amarr suit. Logibro were clearly meant to be a utility unit, not a healing slave. I haven't seen a single reason yet to nerf the Logibro to Sidearms other than "Calogi is OP", which has nothing to do with the rest of the Logi suits.
I have NEVER stated that the Logi is only meant to stand there and rep people. I wholeheartedly agree that that idea is utter garbage.
However, the belief that Logis need to be able to be some kind of "Rambo the Repper" is counter to the entire idea of the Logi IMHO. They need to be able to Support their squad/team though the strategic application of Equipment. I personally enjoy being more of a Ninja-Logi (no, I will not elaborate) than the Combat Medic there with my Heavy on a Reps Leash (I disagree with your healing slave statement, if anything the Heavy is the Logis DPS slave).
Either way, it isn't like Sidearms aren't intended to do the same thing as Light and Heavy Weapons (which is to say that they are all designed as murder tools). Focusing fire with squadmates/teammates is another method of Support. Sidearms are well more than sufficient for such a task. |
The dark cloud
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
1559
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 01:34:00 -
[12] - Quote
STOP TALKING ABOUT ALL LOGIS IF YOU ONLY MEAN THE CALDARI LOGI. |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
767
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 01:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
Oso Peresoso wrote:Its pretty well understood that logi suits with stacked HP have ridiculous combat survivability, damage, and utility. Most notably the proto caldari logi with heavy-suit level EHP, decent armor, and Duvolle AR. To address this issue of logis not logibroing and generally being better than assault at assaulting, I propose a change in the logi weapon slot. Logis would get a single sidearm slot and NO light weapon. OFC, everyone will just spec into proto SMGs to much the same effect, but I think it would fix much of what is wrong.
I figure someone's had this idea already. Thoughts?
Yeah, it's a bad idea.
The idea that somehow, Logi's should be nerfed because Assaults are mad is ludicrous.
Logis have guns. They should be able to use them.
Flux the damn caldaris if you can't out shoot them.
I swear, most of the people that post on these forums from an assault point of view have no sense of how to counter a tactic.
|
Draco Cerberus
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
167
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 01:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
While you may feel that the Caldari Logi is OP, there are several drawbacks all of which you have heard before. The idea that one suit is OP just because of a shield buff should have you thinking about skilling into it not nerfing it. The caldari logi suffers from 2 things that the mini and gallente ones do not. PG and CPU resrictions and one less equipment slot. These things combined make them more suited to be the other assault logi (the first being the amarr with 2 weapon slots). This means they are more focused on survivability to be the one able to rep you or pick you up and do play a support role in every match I have played with them. I prefer the assault logi role played in a slightly different way in that I prefer armor to shields and so do not enjoy the caldari logi. I also enjoy carring enough equipment to help the team more by bringing gear to the fight and so I excell in my role. If anything you should be asking yourself, why is it that the caldari logi isn't a better healer rather than a fighter. The answer is that they probably are a better healer and having dropped their nanohives and uplinks and are now searching for guys to pick up while you came along so they shoot you then pick up their team mate. |
Justin Tymes
Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation
160
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 01:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:Justin Tymes wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:I personally agree with you that logi having only a Sidearm would bring them more in line with a Support role.
However, many others have cried bloody murder every time it gets brought up.
They're intended for Support, not Assault, they should have only secondary combat viability. This mentally that the Logi suit is just meant to stand there and rep people is the problem. If that was the case, CCP would have never created the Amarr suit. Logibro were clearly meant to be a utility unit, not a healing slave. I haven't seen a single reason yet to nerf the Logibro to Sidearms other than "Calogi is OP", which has nothing to do with the rest of the Logi suits. I have NEVER stated that the Logi is only meant to stand there and rep people. I wholeheartedly agree that that idea is utter garbage. However, the belief that Logis need to be able to be some kind of "Rambo the Repper" is counter to the entire idea of the Logi IMHO. They need to be able to Support their squad/team though the strategic application of Equipment. I personally enjoy being more of a Ninja-Logi (no, I will not elaborate) than the Combat Medic there with my Heavy on a Reps Leash (I disagree with your healing slave statement, if anything the Heavy is the Logis DPS slave). Either way, it isn't like Sidearms aren't intended to do the same thing as Light and Heavy Weapons (which is to say that they are all designed as murder tools). Focusing fire with squadmates/teammates is another method of Support. Sidearms are well more than sufficient for such a task.
Any gun fight with a range over 10 meters makes the Logibro useless outside of being healing slave. And most gun fights will be, or at least start out that way. It would require the Logi to always be in CQC to support the team via coverfire, which goes against the purpose of supporting, since a dead Logi is a useless Logi. More importantly, the change would make the Amaar Logisuit useless since it lost its role, and the Gallente logisuit not worth using. As armor tankers they are both not fast enough to evade bullets, have less amount of chances to support in CQC due to slow recovery speed, and no where near fast enough to escape CQC without dying. Logibros already have an offensive nerf, as reload instantly makes them vulnerable(except for Amarr which again loses it's purpose), that goes double for MD users. They are still slower then the Assault and less bulky then the assault, outside of Calogi, which should be handled separately. |
ZDub 303
TeamPlayers EoN.
517
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 01:51:00 -
[16] - Quote
Cal Logis aren't OP.
Bring a cal logi to a PC match against good players, and with the lower move speed and lack of sidearm, it gets evaporated.
People keep crying bloody murder about the Cal Logi... but its not the suit thats OP, its shield tanking > armor tanking.
Buff armor, and redo the terrible racial bonuses on amarr and gallente suits... there is no need to nerf anything. |
Draco Cerberus
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
168
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 01:51:00 -
[17] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:Oso Peresoso wrote:Its pretty well understood that logi suits with stacked HP have ridiculous combat survivability, damage, and utility. Most notably the proto caldari logi with heavy-suit level EHP, decent armor, and Duvolle AR. To address this issue of logis not logibroing and generally being better than assault at assaulting, I propose a change in the logi weapon slot. Logis would get a single sidearm slot and NO light weapon. OFC, everyone will just spec into proto SMGs to much the same effect, but I think it would fix much of what is wrong.
I figure someone's had this idea already. Thoughts? Yeah, it's a bad idea. The idea that somehow, Logi's should be nerfed because Assaults are mad is ludicrous. Logis have guns. They should be able to use them. Flux the damn caldaris if you can't out shoot them. I swear, most of the people that post on these forums from an assault point of view have no sense of how to counter a tactic. Everyone should understand by now that this game is nothing like COD, not all suits are equal or equaly suited to the task at hand but the Caldari logi is perfectly suited to it's desired role, the assault logi, meaning bullets down the range healing when needed and god help the poor sod that thinks yellow means the guy's a runner. |
N311V
DUST University Ivy League
8
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 02:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
I use a Gallente Logistics suit and my K/D ratio is about 0.4. Restrict me to a sidearm only and I might as well not even carry a gun. |
Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows
430
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 02:55:00 -
[19] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:
However, many others have cried bloody murder every time it gets brought up.
Proven right, didn't take long for people to start with the "ZOMG!!!! I COULDN'T DO ANYTHING WITH JUST A SIDEARM!!"
Personally, w/e, I am done arguing about it.
However, I will continue to hold my belief that Sidearm Only Logis are viable, just too many scrub logis that think they're Little Brother Assault. |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
767
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 03:16:00 -
[20] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:
However, many others have cried bloody murder every time it gets brought up.
Proven right, didn't take long for people to start with the "ZOMG!!!! I COULDN'T DO ANYTHING WITH JUST A SIDEARM!!" Personally, w/e, I am done arguing about it. However, I will continue to hold my belief that Sidearm Only Logis are viable, just too many scrub logis that think they're Little Brother Assault.
They aren't Little Brother Assault. They are viable as Assault. Working as intended. Please go cry elsewhere. |
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Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows
430
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 03:56:00 -
[21] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:
However, many others have cried bloody murder every time it gets brought up.
Proven right, didn't take long for people to start with the "ZOMG!!!! I COULDN'T DO ANYTHING WITH JUST A SIDEARM!!" Personally, w/e, I am done arguing about it. However, I will continue to hold my belief that Sidearm Only Logis are viable, just too many scrub logis that think they're Little Brother Assault. You should be done arguing about it. It's not a good suggestion. They aren't Little Brother Assault. They are viable as Assault. Working as intended. Please go cry elsewhere.
The first two sentences of your post are pure opinion and you present them as fact.
Fact: I made a convert while I was gone.
They shouldn't be viable as Assault, they should be Support. I do not believe that is working as intended, otherwise why would CCP have given us both an Assault and a Logi? Both of them existing as roles within the same frame != mean that they should be wholly interchangeable. If you think that it does, then pass me some of what you're smoking cause you're either high or stupid (giving you the benefit of the doubt).
I'm not the one crying here. The guys who're stating definitively that they lose all Support viability are the ones crying here and look at you just bandwagoning on their sacks. |
Paran Tadec
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1140
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 04:16:00 -
[22] - Quote
another day, another fail "nerf all logis" topic.
Skill into min logi, then tell me how OP they are. Scrubs. |
Doshneil Antaro
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
68
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 04:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
Oso Peresoso wrote:Its pretty well understood that logi suits with stacked HP have ridiculous combat survivability, damage, and utility. Most notably the proto caldari logi with heavy-suit level EHP, decent armor, and Duvolle AR. To address this issue of logis not logibroing and generally being better than assault at assaulting, I propose a change in the logi weapon slot. Logis would get a single sidearm slot and NO light weapon. OFC, everyone will just spec into proto SMGs to much the same effect, but I think it would fix much of what is wrong.
I figure someone's had this idea already. Thoughts? Your ignorance, is it bliss? In all combat, no matter if your a medic, engineer, truck driver, etc, your first and foremost job when you are in combat is to kill your enemy. In the military, no matter what job you do, you will be proficient with the assault rifle. Some jobs do require you to also to use other weapons, like pistols, but that is just an extra requirement on top of knowing the AR. Even a combat mission in the heat of battle is to kill everything he sees first, save lives second. He saves more lives by killing, than to become a causality himself just rushing in. You cannot argue to me that it makes even some scrap of sense, in real life or in game, as I have 15 years real experience in combat zones and probally 20 years of fps experience. |
Buster Friently
Rosen Association
769
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 05:19:00 -
[24] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:Buster Friently wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:Alaika Arbosa wrote:
However, many others have cried bloody murder every time it gets brought up.
Proven right, didn't take long for people to start with the "ZOMG!!!! I COULDN'T DO ANYTHING WITH JUST A SIDEARM!!" Personally, w/e, I am done arguing about it. However, I will continue to hold my belief that Sidearm Only Logis are viable, just too many scrub logis that think they're Little Brother Assault. You should be done arguing about it. It's not a good suggestion. They aren't Little Brother Assault. They are viable as Assault. Working as intended. Please go cry elsewhere. The first two sentences of your post are pure opinion and you present them as fact. Fact: I made a convert while I was gone. They shouldn't be viable as Assault, they should be Support. I do not believe that is working as intended, otherwise why would CCP have given us both an Assault and a Logi? Both of them existing as roles within the same frame != mean that they should be wholly interchangeable. If you think that it does, then pass me some of what you're smoking cause you're either high or stupid (giving you the benefit of the doubt). I'm not the one crying here. The guys who're stating definitively that they lose all Support viability are the ones crying here and look at you just bandwagoning on their sacks.
Actually, I'm just flat out telling you that you're wrong. As is the OP.
In Eve, there are many ships with overlapping capabilities. The fact that the Logistics suits and Assault suits have some overlap, while maintaining distinctness, I think, Is exactly working as designed. This comes from my Eve experience.
Also, support does not mean can't kill. This pretty well kills all of the ideas from single spec Assault players who, for some reason, don't want Logis to be able to kill anything.
So, to be clear, what I'm saying is that you are wrong in your efforts to designate Logistic suits as "support" meaning can't kill. Dust, like Eve, is meant to be a sandbox. This means that CCP provides the framework, and we players build the details as we see fit.
The only reason CCP should nerf anything is if CCP thinks that diversity is being negatively impacted by a specific item that's OP/UP. In this case, this would mean that there are so many Logis on the field, that no one, or virtually no one, goes Assault. I, for one, don't see this while on the battlefield, therefore a call to nerf is unfounded. Take for example, the counter argument of a valid nerf, being the Tac AR, because anyone with the SP went to this weapon to the exclusion of all others. |
Cass Barr
Red Star. EoN.
386
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 05:24:00 -
[25] - Quote
Is OP an assault? |
KOBLAKA1
Opus Arcana Covert Intervention
112
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 05:53:00 -
[26] - Quote
Doshneil Antaro wrote:Oso Peresoso wrote:Its pretty well understood that logi suits with stacked HP have ridiculous combat survivability, damage, and utility. Most notably the proto caldari logi with heavy-suit level EHP, decent armor, and Duvolle AR. To address this issue of logis not logibroing and generally being better than assault at assaulting, I propose a change in the logi weapon slot. Logis would get a single sidearm slot and NO light weapon. OFC, everyone will just spec into proto SMGs to much the same effect, but I think it would fix much of what is wrong.
I figure someone's had this idea already. Thoughts? Your ignorance, is it bliss? In all combat, no matter if your a medic, engineer, truck driver, etc, your first and foremost job when you are in combat is to kill your enemy. In the military, no matter what job you do, you will be proficient with the assault rifle. Some jobs do require you to also to use other weapons, like pistols, but that is just an extra requirement on top of knowing the AR. Even a combat mission in the heat of battle is to kill everything he sees first, save lives second. He saves more lives by killing, than to become a causality himself just rushing in. You cannot argue to me that it makes even some scrap of sense, in real life or in game, as I have 15 years real experience in combat zones and probally 20 years of fps experience.
I am a medic...while this is essentially true I was never allowed to bust doors down or be a main push during an attack on a position because "im a force multiplier and joe over there can't save youif you go down" we also do a lot of hanging out at the CCP (casualty collection point). Medics also don't carry anything more than the base m4, a 9mm if they are lucky. So yes they help kill people but they aren't your first choice. The fact that the calogi is greater than or equal to abn assault therefore makes no sense. You may have 15 years but I have actual medic experience, so you could be a general but in medical situations I outrank you. |
KEROSIINI-TERO
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
503
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 09:04:00 -
[27] - Quote
Of all Caldari Logi balancing ideas, forcing light wep -> sidearm is absolutely the worst.
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Oso Peresoso
RisingSuns
34
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 13:15:00 -
[28] - Quote
OP here
Thanks for your replies all, I don't mean to present myself as an expert on the topic by any means, and you've raised some good points that I hadn't considered. The light weapon -> sidearm nerf for all logis is probably a bit too extreme to address the issue. After all, if you're in a proto suit with a proto weapon, you should be a killing machine regardless of if its a logi. The specific concerns about caldari logi HP are probably best served with adjustments to the CPU, or if this is insufficient, removing a hislot, as well as a general look at logi/assault skill bonuses. I also don't think all suits across the same class should be completely homogenized (this is certainly not the case in Eve, and it isn't even the case in Dust right now). |
Jastad
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
36
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Posted - 2013.06.28 14:04:00 -
[29] - Quote
Starting Again with this story?
for the sake of (insert your favorite god here) stop thinking ENDGAME balance based on PUBSCRUB MATCH. That's what CCP did with the Heavy and we all see it's result.
I'm tired of do COPY / PASTE every time a NON logi player tell a Logi how to play.
Let's try to explain (another time)
Logi is meant to support : In dust we have 3 ways of support, REPP, RESS and HIVE&UPlink
RePP: tell me, if i cant deal dmg to how can i only REPP you, because every useful weapon in DUST outclass the most powerfull repper. Also a logi is slow, so he come late, and than DIE a Death logi is worthless.
RESS: if you need a ress you died, because SOMEONE SHOOT at you !!! How can i support you if i cant come close to ress you? What have to fear an enemy that is outside my range? he just have to wait that i ress you and then kill you again (and kill me, of course) Also people dont take in account that, with UPRISIN 1,2 we won't have "hard cap" on weap range anymore , so a duvalle can shoot and dmg me outside of his range, while i cant hit him ( anyone thinking SS and SSpro vets vs standard people? )
HIVE&UPLINK: With the change you have thank, the only thing a logi can do. Fine for me, but only if we remove ALL equip slot from other suit. Let's watch the Assboys melee theirself to death if a logi is not in the match.
STONEAGE 514 |
Jastad
D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E
36
|
Posted - 2013.06.28 14:05:00 -
[30] - Quote
ps :
We all know that Cal.Logi need to be look at. The more simple thing to do is to switch the Cal.AS and CAl.logi bonus |
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