I see a lot of arguments stemming from infantry using CQC AV nades against tanks. I wonder if answering these questions might help.

1. Is it that tankers job to stay with a squad?


2. Should infantry have the ability to take out straggling HAV's solo?


3. Will they be bringing in Proto HAV's? Is the balance issue Pro AV vs. STD HAV's?

Just my .02.

Because you can only have so many players on the battlefield at once. When you start seperating the anti-infantry in order to do anti-vehicle, infantry warfare can get easily get lopsided in favor of the team with the tank.

In essence, tankers want their tank to do as much damage and take as much damage as a full squadron of protos. All manned by only 1 guy with a fat wallet. With this logic, why be infantry at all? It'll be Tank 514.

We have assult dropships, they have a gun turrent, no doubt there will be other vehicals with driver weapons etc, it shouldnt be a problem, i dont see why it is, i think the only point i have on this is.. theres no benifit to driving a tank solo it doesnt need that kind of nerf, which is what it would be

i could image the tears and tanks nerfs that would follow if all tanks had 3 people shooting proto cannons at them lol although it does sound quite fun and im pretty sure mine might last a bit longer

As a Pilot & HAV driver, I can say honestly that I feel more-or-less balanced against AV. My only issue is the Assault Dropship being so unstable that ANYTHING knocks it into the ground. It should behave the same way my Myron does, but it falls over like its half the size. Any driver shouldn't get too upset by a proto FG taking you out cuz it's doing its job as AV. Just as any infantry (AV or not), shouldn't be bothered by an HAV killing them, because it too is doing its job. We cancel each other out, therefore balance is reached. The only thing that unbalances anything is who has more teamwork, that is not an imbalance.
That is all. Eriknaught out. END TRANSMISSION.

Im a tanker, heres my input

I think its hilarious when people call for an AV nerf, especially AV grenades, if they nerf AV nades, what happens to the Taxi's then. If you nerf something, it will obviously effect something else. I think in Chromosome the vehicle warfare was perfect.
Maybe CCP should just change a few things to the yellow Taxi since its the only thing killing people and making them come cry on forums.

Honestly I run proto AV- lai dai, those ***** are useless, unless you actually catch a well fitted tanker out of line. So currently vehicle warfare is decent. All I say, is fix pg on militia shield tanks and Gunnlogis. I can barely fit that much on them. And then again they nerf the speed of shield tanks, like they really needed a nerf. Then improved armor tanks, made them faster.

I have PRO turrets on my tanks. What do I get for that?

To the dudes that blatently want to solo a tank coz theres only one driver in it, yes Mcboso (i pray for the other dudes in that corp your not leader) and popwhatever im looking at you guys, forge gun, high tower where i cant see you, watch me drive around like a confused idiot while you single handedly murk my machine

Lol? Nobody has been spreading around Tank 514 or HAV 514. It's still AR 514.

Why should one person be able to solo a tank?

I agree on AV vs militia LAVs but not so much vs the Scout and Logi.

Also, PG is okay but honestly could use with some bonuses from skills rather than modules. You act as if LLAV drivers only use their PG to boost their survivability. We don't, not all of us anyway, because we're not all running Carmageddon games.

I use my PG to fascilitate loading up a CRU and Scanner... and there's no possibility of having an armor rep on there which is a HUGE detriment. It means I'm forced to use a vehicle spec rep gun rather than general or infantry specific rep tool when I'm gonna be driving my team anywhere, and it's still a joke trying to repair my vehicle. I'm better off recalling it and requesting a new one on the field at a later point.


The numbers you suggest actually imply a PG nerf which is definitely not needed by any LAV in any situation.

As for lowering armor HP to balance E-HP, this just seems like nonsense to me personally, particularly when armor takes massive damage from AV weaponry in comparison to shields. You're basically trying to kill off armor LAV tanking all together with the numbers you've suggested since it would mean someone with 400k SP and 3k isk in grenades could wipe out my 1.7mil SP and 250k isk LLAV solo in just 2-3 nades. Not even well tossed nades.

The issue is not having adv and pro tanks.

So, should a proto forge or swarm be able to solo a gunlogi or maddy - absolutely. the same way a proto ar with 3 dmage mods wrecks meta 1 shield modules.

however, scaled up, a proto tank will take 3 proto av to kill, the same as a gunlogi or maddy takes 3 std av to kill. this is good balance and giving us real good, expensive, worthwile death machines, is good. if it tanks any more than 3 or more proto av to kill proto tanks, then tanks are overpowered. any less, underpowered. we have the balance in the numbers, but more than half the vehicles are missing and av gear is all there.


my demands: give us adv and pro tanks while keeping av the same

Srry I didnt read the whole thread , my 2 cents (and its easy ) add another slot for nades. So medium suit can carry anti personnel and anti vehicle grenades.

That in itself should make the playing field more balanced . The problem comes when you have to split your squad to take down tanks with their av fits ....

Also make the top end av grenades more accessible by lowering their CPU & PG need . Its very difficult to bounce a nade of a tank without getting your head blown off and in the open almost impossible.

So all in all I think this might work from a infantry perspective .....

wisdom in those words; as being on the AV side (and semi tank) side i couldn't agree. Only thing id "disagree" on is the amount of proto av vs proto tank of 3. Reason is since you compare 1 proto av to 3 basic; that mains 9 basic to 1 proto tank which is a bit to much; as thats over 50% of a team. I'd say 2 proto AV shoudl suffice against a proto tank; and 1-2 for an advanced tank.

I'd also be interested in seeing what adv & proto tanks do; both stats and module wise.

wisdom in those words; as being on the AV side (and semi tank) side i couldn't agree. Only thing id "disagree" on is the amount of proto av vs proto tank of 3. Reason is since you compare 1 proto av to 3 basic; that mains 9 basic to 1 proto tank which is a bit to much; as thats over 50% of a team. I'd say 2 proto AV shoudl suffice against a proto tank; and 1-2 for an advanced tank.

I'd also be interested in seeing what adv & proto tanks do; both stats and module wise.

Why shouldnt it be half the team to take out a proto tank

At this rate to get proto vehicles it will require millions of SP for just 1 type of proto vehicle not too mention the massive ISK sink

Enforcers milita grade tanks cost 1.2mil per hull, proto fully fitted will prob be closer to 10mil while proto AV is generally 500k if that and basic AV being less than 20k

Damn right it should be at least half of the team trying to pound on it if they all milita/basic AV scrubs

The logic of an HAV needing 3 people of the same tier to destroy it is broken anyway- how many times are the 2 small turrets actually doing anything but farming assits?

Why shouldnt it be half the team to take out a proto tank

At this rate to get proto vehicles it will require millions of SP for just 1 type of proto vehicle not too mention the massive ISK sink

Enforcers milita grade tanks cost 1.2mil per hull, proto fully fitted will prob be closer to 10mil while proto AV is generally 500k if that and basic AV being less than 20k

Damn right it should be at least half of the team trying to pound on it if they all milita/basic AV scrubs

here is the thing, you are ONLY looking at this situation to benefit yourself making things harder on AV. If you look at the amount of people who actually spec AV in a match (not looking at PC at moment, though fi do, usually its 1-2 AV people plus a tank or 2), as for once ill look at pubs. I'd guess maybe 2-3 people have proto AV in a pub match. Maybe by your standing they'd be able to take out that tank. But if look that they dont have proto AV, you are saying its fair to require 1/2 a team to go AV to kill you which essentially entails them being ripped apart by your infantry.

Essentially you are looking at people calling in proto tanks in pubs more often if they notice its random or non AV people b/c they know there wont be any chance of it being destroyed. Now i am one for not balancing based on pubs; but pub play is part of the game so there needs to be some consideration toward it..

Also for the idea that proto tanks w/ require MILLIONS of SP is your assumption. CCP can easily alter where/how/what tank req will be. Personally i wouldnt mind seeing enforcers being removed completely or make those the advanced tanks and making them better. I'd say make the enforcer tank skill what the marauder skill was, but make it a 15x skill. By doing that, you can keep the skill it has, and maybe add something to it. Then have tanks fall under the race branch (ie Caldari, etc). In doing so you'd need to up the req to to get your tanks, in which id say goes to a 12x skill. By doing that, you have your Madi/Gung as your basic, make the enforcers the adv type ( but make them better), and readd the Sagaris & Surya class as proto. It also make tankers have to think on what they really need. As coming from an infantry, i lost a lot of variation b/c of certain skills, yes tankers somewhat had it "easier" in sense of CPU & PG skills, the ease to get your Mady/Gung as its now cheaper then it use to be, and you get an upgraded LAV as well.

In that scenario, it makes skilling into those HAV worthwhile and not a sink of 4 levels. By doing so, it makes the tankers "career" path longer, and more "worthwhile. As atm, it is easier to get your basic HAV hull (which all tanker use), then it is to get a proto suit, which is usually 'required" to run proto AV effectively.

So yeah, 2-3 specc'd AV should be able to take on a proto tank w/ proto AV. Something need to remember though is, those 2 would be your only real threats in that game, while they need to worry about all 16 players. 1-2 for an adv tank, as proto AV to adv tank, needs to give a semi edge to AV by level.

But yes, to my main point and what O'dell said, proto av works fine against your tanks atm, b/c they are basic. It is not to blame AV for being to good, but to blame CCP for not having in adv & proto tanks. When those are added things will start to balance out.

The logic of an HAV needing 3 people of the same tier to destroy it is broken anyway- how many times are the 2 small turrets actually doing anything but farming assits?

Forget balancing by pub matches

So what if i bring in a proto tank to stomp in a pub match its my choice to do so, whoever is on the other team has to deal with it and its not my problem

In PC its a different story, more organized teams, also more tanks most likely

It will take millions, the covert ops tanks required 4mil SP to use, if the proto tanks are split off into various types then it will require more SP and if mods are expanded to also basic/adv/proto then it mayeb more SP not too mention more mods and turrets with the new tanks

Your comparing basic hull to a proto suit, its no comparision but you can whack on a proto AV weapon to a milita suit anyways like you can use a proto turret on a milita tank

First, you NEED to have balance in pub matches. Yes im a hardcore player, but if you dont balance pub games you alienate most of your players who aren't doing PC & FW, which at this time is trash anyways; and when pub matches are balanced it also helps balane PC games, as PC players PLAY PUBS TOO (simple ex; TAR). So yes, unless your *dah* special, EVERY FPS game tries to balance in pub games as that's where 99% of people play. As i bet if pub games and mechanics were balanced there'd be more people playing Dust then there are now.

PC is a totally different beast, as you'll have tanks and AV to deal with. This is how AV corresponds w/ Vehicles, not Vehicle to Vehicle, as the biggest problem there is ow horrible shield tanking is. Those are 2 different topcs.

Also, i can compare a proto suit to a basic tank hull b/c both require SP. Unless the game has changed, i was referring to SP required. As it takes ~1.2M to get a basic proto suit; whereas a Basic tank hull costs ~250k. So they gives you almost an extra 1M SP to spend at your leisure. And you know what, your proto tank SHOULD cost a lot and time to get. Your proto hull and my racial hull will be similiar in the amount of SP required to get them, so yes, its fair and balaned then.

Also you can fit a proto AV weapon on a militia suit, but is is rather poor, and you wouldn't do it. The way you can fit it is:

Caldari Militia Suit, Wiki SL, Toxin, Complex & Enhanced damage mod, basic CPU upgrade, basic Nano. Now that ONLY works b/c of the amount of SP i have into my passive skills. Otherwise that doesn't work at all.

HOWEVER, you can fit a Proto Rail on a militia Tank, and still be effective W/O PUTTING ANY SKILLS INTO ANYTHING BUT YOUR TURRET !!!! You can use either Militia tank, and either throw on a militia CPU or PG upgrade, and can run a proto rail. Yes you may be a glass cannon, but if you are using a rail as it should be (via distance), you won't have to worry that much.

So yeah, go back to the drawing board Snake, and actually test what you preach. As just debunked your entire reasoning. Go back to MAG w/ =V= who got trashed on so many times.

Next in line plz

lol you think you done?

You dont balance a game with results from pub matches where it can be groups vs solo randoms - you do that and the entrie game will be broken even more than it is now, what is wrong with you? its as bad as trying to balance AV and vehicles from results in ambush its a bad idea and a stupid one at that

Its why PC is much better for stat collectiing and balancing because its organized teams in full proto going at each other

But whats better is having a testing room to see if everything working how it should be

We dont have proto vehicles so no you cant compare unless you can see into the future, for all we know a proto mauruader may be a 15x skill and cost more SP overall

The free suit with proto AV can work and does, try it with a milita tank where the turret alone costs 1mil and gives you 3 shots, if both went up against each other the AV would win easily

Im on the drawing board, you must be out of the classroom and in detention because them are some bad ideas and examples you better think of some better ones while you stay behind and write lines

if you took the time to read my first post; i gave a possibility on how tank advanced could work; which is what i was basing the SP advancement on.

As to where to collect data; you need it from all sources. That includes PC and pubs alike. You need balance in them all; as if a pub isnt balance who will want to play then ?

As pub play is part of the game, so needs balance. What makes you so special that your tank should be an i win button in a pub match ? Anything should be have the chance to be destroyed; which means sometimes you need to cater to the less competent (which i cant believe im saying), but you should feel risk in calling out what would be a proto tank in a pub. If there is no fear that you'll be destroyed then there is something wrong with the game.

I will agree, we need a testing room or something; as anyone who has been here long enough knows CCP internal testing is trash, and should all be fired, as that salary should be used for a test server.

But overall, this game needs to be balance throughout, meaning PC/FW/Pub/Null ,everything. You need to have the same fear of taking out a proto suit in a pub as you do a PC match (only difference is you know ull die in a PC match more). Same goes w/ tanks. You should have fear of being destroyed in a pub, as you would in a PC, except you know it'd happen more in a PC match

Overall, im simply sick of the AV-Vehicle topic; as there are to many people who won't budge on whether there side is OP/UP/etc . There are select few i respect in this area (many of which aren't the ones posting here) for their beliefs and being able to see both sides of the coin. To many want one side of the coin to be useless so they have an easier time

Never said i want it to be an i win button but its a tank it needs to be a tank espc at proto level which means it needs to stand up to proto at least but if im a pub match with a bunch of muppets and i bring out a proto tank and they only have milita/basic i will stomp on them most likely and my tank will survive and so it should, if they bring out proto then so be it

Pubs is pubs, random ppl in random matches and only way to balance is matchmaking or by basic/advanced/proto levels and also maybe soloplay and groups

But this is just 1 vehicle, the dropship is ****** right now and next to unusable anyways and that has a serious problem worse than the tank

Either way why should a give a **** CCP are adding a AA HAV for all the dropships which are plaguing the skies so much

The logic of an HAV needing 3 people of the same tier to destroy it is broken anyway- how many times are the 2 small turrets actually doing anything but farming assits?