wisdom in those words; as being on the AV side (and semi tank) side i couldn't agree. Only thing id "disagree" on is the amount of proto av vs proto tank of 3. Reason is since you compare 1 proto av to 3 basic; that mains 9 basic to 1 proto tank which is a bit to much; as thats over 50% of a team. I'd say 2 proto AV shoudl suffice against a proto tank; and 1-2 for an advanced tank.

I'd also be interested in seeing what adv & proto tanks do; both stats and module wise.

The logic of an HAV needing 3 people of the same tier to destroy it is broken anyway- how many times are the 2 small turrets actually doing anything but farming assits?

here is the thing, you are ONLY looking at this situation to benefit yourself making things harder on AV. If you look at the amount of people who actually spec AV in a match (not looking at PC at moment, though fi do, usually its 1-2 AV people plus a tank or 2), as for once ill look at pubs. I'd guess maybe 2-3 people have proto AV in a pub match. Maybe by your standing they'd be able to take out that tank. But if look that they dont have proto AV, you are saying its fair to require 1/2 a team to go AV to kill you which essentially entails them being ripped apart by your infantry.

Essentially you are looking at people calling in proto tanks in pubs more often if they notice its random or non AV people b/c they know there wont be any chance of it being destroyed. Now i am one for not balancing based on pubs; but pub play is part of the game so there needs to be some consideration toward it..

Also for the idea that proto tanks w/ require MILLIONS of SP is your assumption. CCP can easily alter where/how/what tank req will be. Personally i wouldnt mind seeing enforcers being removed completely or make those the advanced tanks and making them better. I'd say make the enforcer tank skill what the marauder skill was, but make it a 15x skill. By doing that, you can keep the skill it has, and maybe add something to it. Then have tanks fall under the race branch (ie Caldari, etc). In doing so you'd need to up the req to to get your tanks, in which id say goes to a 12x skill. By doing that, you have your Madi/Gung as your basic, make the enforcers the adv type ( but make them better), and readd the Sagaris & Surya class as proto. It also make tankers have to think on what they really need. As coming from an infantry, i lost a lot of variation b/c of certain skills, yes tankers somewhat had it "easier" in sense of CPU & PG skills, the ease to get your Mady/Gung as its now cheaper then it use to be, and you get an upgraded LAV as well.

In that scenario, it makes skilling into those HAV worthwhile and not a sink of 4 levels. By doing so, it makes the tankers "career" path longer, and more "worthwhile. As atm, it is easier to get your basic HAV hull (which all tanker use), then it is to get a proto suit, which is usually 'required" to run proto AV effectively.

So yeah, 2-3 specc'd AV should be able to take on a proto tank w/ proto AV. Something need to remember though is, those 2 would be your only real threats in that game, while they need to worry about all 16 players. 1-2 for an adv tank, as proto AV to adv tank, needs to give a semi edge to AV by level.

But yes, to my main point and what O'dell said, proto av works fine against your tanks atm, b/c they are basic. It is not to blame AV for being to good, but to blame CCP for not having in adv & proto tanks. When those are added things will start to balance out.

First, you NEED to have balance in pub matches. Yes im a hardcore player, but if you dont balance pub games you alienate most of your players who aren't doing PC & FW, which at this time is trash anyways; and when pub matches are balanced it also helps balane PC games, as PC players PLAY PUBS TOO (simple ex; TAR). So yes, unless your *dah* special, EVERY FPS game tries to balance in pub games as that's where 99% of people play. As i bet if pub games and mechanics were balanced there'd be more people playing Dust then there are now.

PC is a totally different beast, as you'll have tanks and AV to deal with. This is how AV corresponds w/ Vehicles, not Vehicle to Vehicle, as the biggest problem there is ow horrible shield tanking is. Those are 2 different topcs.

Also, i can compare a proto suit to a basic tank hull b/c both require SP. Unless the game has changed, i was referring to SP required. As it takes ~1.2M to get a basic proto suit; whereas a Basic tank hull costs ~250k. So they gives you almost an extra 1M SP to spend at your leisure. And you know what, your proto tank SHOULD cost a lot and time to get. Your proto hull and my racial hull will be similiar in the amount of SP required to get them, so yes, its fair and balaned then.

Also you can fit a proto AV weapon on a militia suit, but is is rather poor, and you wouldn't do it. The way you can fit it is:

Caldari Militia Suit, Wiki SL, Toxin, Complex & Enhanced damage mod, basic CPU upgrade, basic Nano. Now that ONLY works b/c of the amount of SP i have into my passive skills. Otherwise that doesn't work at all.

HOWEVER, you can fit a Proto Rail on a militia Tank, and still be effective W/O PUTTING ANY SKILLS INTO ANYTHING BUT YOUR TURRET !!!! You can use either Militia tank, and either throw on a militia CPU or PG upgrade, and can run a proto rail. Yes you may be a glass cannon, but if you are using a rail as it should be (via distance), you won't have to worry that much.

So yeah, go back to the drawing board Snake, and actually test what you preach. As just debunked your entire reasoning. Go back to MAG w/ =V= who got trashed on so many times.

Next in line plz

if you took the time to read my first post; i gave a possibility on how tank advanced could work; which is what i was basing the SP advancement on.

As to where to collect data; you need it from all sources. That includes PC and pubs alike. You need balance in them all; as if a pub isnt balance who will want to play then ?

As pub play is part of the game, so needs balance. What makes you so special that your tank should be an i win button in a pub match ? Anything should be have the chance to be destroyed; which means sometimes you need to cater to the less competent (which i cant believe im saying), but you should feel risk in calling out what would be a proto tank in a pub. If there is no fear that you'll be destroyed then there is something wrong with the game.

I will agree, we need a testing room or something; as anyone who has been here long enough knows CCP internal testing is trash, and should all be fired, as that salary should be used for a test server.

But overall, this game needs to be balance throughout, meaning PC/FW/Pub/Null ,everything. You need to have the same fear of taking out a proto suit in a pub as you do a PC match (only difference is you know ull die in a PC match more). Same goes w/ tanks. You should have fear of being destroyed in a pub, as you would in a PC, except you know it'd happen more in a PC match

Overall, im simply sick of the AV-Vehicle topic; as there are to many people who won't budge on whether there side is OP/UP/etc . There are select few i respect in this area (many of which aren't the ones posting here) for their beliefs and being able to see both sides of the coin. To many want one side of the coin to be useless so they have an easier time

New topic of discussion:

Should it take 2 average skill proto AV to kill 1 average skill proto tank? More? Less?

My vote is for 2 because if we say 'average skill', that's still 95% of the tanker population. The true diehard tankers will still take 3 or even 4 if they have good infantry. That seems very fair.