DUST Search - Tank Driver calling ALL Vehicle players and ALL AV players together

EnglishSnake wrote:

Berserker007 wrote:

EnglishSnake wrote:

Forget balancing by pub matches

So what if i bring in a proto tank to stomp in a pub match its my choice to do so, whoever is on the other team has to deal with it and its not my problem

In PC its a different story, more organized teams, also more tanks most likely

It will take millions, the covert ops tanks required 4mil SP to use, if the proto tanks are split off into various types then it will require more SP and if mods are expanded to also basic/adv/proto then it mayeb more SP not too mention more mods and turrets with the new tanks

Your comparing basic hull to a proto suit, its no comparision but you can whack on a proto AV weapon to a milita suit anyways like you can use a proto turret on a milita tank

First, you NEED to have balance in pub matches. Yes im a hardcore player, but if you dont balance pub games you alienate most of your players who aren't doing PC & FW, which at this time is trash anyways; and when pub matches are balanced it also helps balane PC games, as PC players PLAY PUBS TOO (simple ex; TAR). So yes, unless your *dah* special, EVERY FPS game tries to balance in pub games as that's where 99% of people play. As i bet if pub games and mechanics were balanced there'd be more people playing Dust then there are now.

PC is a totally different beast, as you'll have tanks and AV to deal with. This is how AV corresponds w/ Vehicles, not Vehicle to Vehicle, as the biggest problem there is ow horrible shield tanking is. Those are 2 different topcs.

Also, i can compare a proto suit to a basic tank hull b/c both require SP. Unless the game has changed, i was referring to SP required. As it takes ~1.2M to get a basic proto suit; whereas a Basic tank hull costs ~250k. So they gives you almost an extra 1M SP to spend at your leisure. And you know what, your proto tank SHOULD cost a lot and time to get. Your proto hull and my racial hull will be similiar in the amount of SP required to get them, so yes, its fair and balaned then.

Also you can fit a proto AV weapon on a militia suit, but is is rather poor, and you wouldn't do it. The way you can fit it is:

Caldari Militia Suit, Wiki SL, Toxin, Complex & Enhanced damage mod, basic CPU upgrade, basic Nano. Now that ONLY works b/c of the amount of SP i have into my passive skills. Otherwise that doesn't work at all.

HOWEVER, you can fit a Proto Rail on a militia Tank, and still be effective W/O PUTTING ANY SKILLS INTO ANYTHING BUT YOUR TURRET !!!! You can use either Militia tank, and either throw on a militia CPU or PG upgrade, and can run a proto rail. Yes you may be a glass cannon, but if you are using a rail as it should be (via distance), you won't have to worry that much.

So yeah, go back to the drawing board Snake, and actually test what you preach. As just debunked your entire reasoning. Go back to MAG w/ =V= who got trashed on so many times.

Next in line plz

lol you think you done?

You dont balance a game with results from pub matches where it can be groups vs solo randoms - you do that and the entrie game will be broken even more than it is now, what is wrong with you? its as bad as trying to balance AV and vehicles from results in ambush its a bad idea and a stupid one at that

Its why PC is much better for stat collectiing and balancing because its organized teams in full proto going at each other

But whats better is having a testing room to see if everything working how it should be

We dont have proto vehicles so no you cant compare unless you can see into the future, for all we know a proto mauruader may be a 15x skill and cost more SP overall

The free suit with proto AV can work and does, try it with a milita tank where the turret alone costs 1mil and gives you 3 shots, if both went up against each other the AV would win easily

Im on the drawing board, you must be out of the classroom and in detention because them are some bad ideas and examples you better think of some better ones while you stay behind and write lines


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 314	Posted - 2013.06.18 23:01:00 - [1] - Quote Void Echo wrote: . hmmm, ok where to start. Simply background so know im not just winging it; but ive ran as a specc'd AV (be SL, FG, AVN) player for over 1 year; and have daballed in tanking here and there before resets and alt characters. Here are my thoughts (though most will be based on the adv/proto levels, as that is where i think & see the problem is): AV-N : these work great on all vehicles, however are mostly affective against LAV's and real Armor Tanks (Std +, in my opinion). That said, at the PROTO level, they are quite effective against anything, yet im my opinion they need to be able to OHK starter & Militia LAV's , as they have no SP requirements to use; whereas the nades take 1.2M SP to skill into. In saying that, im NOT saying buff AVN's, but reduce the HP of starter/militia LAVs for sure; and even basic/logi as well (as even armor logi LAV's shouldnt take the same or more Lai Dai's then a tank). Reason for that, is atm Logi LAV's survive proto AVNs more effectively then tanks b/c of their passive skills buffs and effectiveness to outrun the tracking of AVN's, even if thrown infront of the LAV's so they run into its path. This is where tankers are weak in the sense they can't run away from them; though if you are getting hit by AVN's it may be your fault for getting into that situations as well. SL: Swarms are highly effective against starter/militia LAV's, and Militia Tanks, and highly effective against Armor tanks. I'd say this is probably one of the biggest disputed areas of the moment. At the moment Swarms makes armor tankers bend over and take it w/o lube. However, i have a bit a more more insight in this area b/c of my armor tanker alt (which only have 1.1M SP total). As it is, proto Swarms do ~2k damage per volley before anything is added to it. If you take into consideration some prof lv, damage mods and the effectiveness against armor (either 20o or 30% increase, dont remember which) you are looking at each volley doing ~3.2K damage. At the same time, SL users normally arent as "close" as say a FG user might be (b/c of the lock ability), so swams need to take travel time into account as a MASSIVE weakness of them, along w/ them begin mainly visible at launch. So if you are a skilled tanker (ill look to Noc, Caeli, Slap, etc), once they get hit by one volley they are running b/c they know what hit them. I won't lie, i've solo'd in 3-4 shots a Mady, but in doing so, that tank literally just stood in one place trying to take the swarms thinking they were militia or something. Also, armor tanks essentially can run a hardener all the time based on their how long the run & refresh time, so that is something that helps them against infantry, thus helps in survivability (compared to shield hardeners). In my opinion, the pwnage that proto swarms do against Armor tanks atm is justified, B/C a Mady is a STANDARD tank. Now, when they actually put in proto and adv tanks, i dont see this being as much of an issue; as figure a adv tank will probably take 4-6 shots, then proto 6+ meaning 2 people needed. In doing soe the SL user is require to reload or then chase the tanker, as if ANY tanker tries to sit through 4+ volleys of proto swarms i have no sympathy for destroying you tank FG: i haven't used the FG since last build, but i believe it had the effectiveness against shields of 120% and 80% on armor; the opposite of SL. That said, i strictly remember my FG being able to kill Mady as well simply b/c even though it has overall less damage, its DPS per second was quite high, plus it was harder for a tanker to"evade" in sense it was LOS (line of sight) shooting. FG is also more effective against dropships then SL (if disagree then you aren't a good DS pilot, the good ones will know why w/o me having to say anything). FG also have different variants that help you pending on the situation you want and tanks you are facing; along w/ having an officer variant. The FG also allows for effective AI usage that swarms dont, and PC just isnt used much. The use of the FG has went down for AV use b/c of the lack of shield tanks; though have been ripping apart shield LAVs, as they are "easier" to hit as they cant use the ground to evade like for swarms. The big stick people complain about is that the FG is more powerful then a rail gun. That may be true, however the railgun has oo ammo ; can be fired faster (in some cases), and has a longer range, and you have more ehp then a heavy does. Along w/ that the FG user needs to be weary of EVERYTHING, being tanks, lavs, DS, and infantry. If you're a tanker using a rail, more then likely you are worry about AV and other tanks, as small arms fire doesn't concern you. I think the FG damage is as intended atm, but may change pending on if/when shield tanks become a viable option then (which i think is reason people complain so much about swarms, is b/c everyone runs armor tanks, and b/c you get the free SL starter fit). PC: unknown as only ever seen it used 2-3 times in a game. Only thing i can say is i feel is it massively underpowered. PM: Proxy mines need a "buff", in the sense that im not sure if anything changed from Chromosome to Uprising, but LAV's can run over them and take no damage (especially they logi and scout). It seems like Proxies went to a times explosion, where it should be an explosion on contact (like contact nades). I think that be another great way to hinder the massive LAV spam Vehicles: Can't fully say; but know thing i do believe is needed is the +5% PG bonus from the engy skill as i think that will allow tankers to change and alter their fits a bit more, and may change how AV affects them. Then for tanks, at least a bit more HP bonus to their respective area (shield -> shield, armor to armor). The only "negative" change i could think of atm is LAVs need a health &/or resistance
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 316	Posted - 2013.06.19 17:08:00 - [2] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: The issue is not having adv and pro tanks. So, should a proto forge or swarm be able to solo a gunlogi or maddy - absolutely. the same way a proto ar with 3 dmage mods wrecks meta 1 shield modules. however, scaled up, a proto tank will take 3 proto av to kill, the same as a gunlogi or maddy takes 3 std av to kill. this is good balance and giving us real good, expensive, worthwile death machines, is good. if it tanks any more than 3 or more proto av to kill proto tanks, then tanks are overpowered. any less, underpowered. we have the balance in the numbers, but more than half the vehicles are missing and av gear is all there. my demands: give us adv and pro tanks while keeping av the same wisdom in those words; as being on the AV side (and semi tank) side i couldn't agree. Only thing id "disagree" on is the amount of proto av vs proto tank of 3. Reason is since you compare 1 proto av to 3 basic; that mains 9 basic to 1 proto tank which is a bit to much; as thats over 50% of a team. I'd say 2 proto AV shoudl suffice against a proto tank; and 1-2 for an advanced tank. I'd also be interested in seeing what adv & proto tanks do; both stats and module wise.
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 317	Posted - 2013.06.19 18:14:00 - [3] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: Berserker007 wrote: Charlotte O'Dell wrote: The issue is not having adv and pro tanks. So, should a proto forge or swarm be able to solo a gunlogi or maddy - absolutely. the same way a proto ar with 3 dmage mods wrecks meta 1 shield modules. however, scaled up, a proto tank will take 3 proto av to kill, the same as a gunlogi or maddy takes 3 std av to kill. this is good balance and giving us real good, expensive, worthwile death machines, is good. if it tanks any more than 3 or more proto av to kill proto tanks, then tanks are overpowered. any less, underpowered. we have the balance in the numbers, but more than half the vehicles are missing and av gear is all there. my demands: give us adv and pro tanks while keeping av the same wisdom in those words; as being on the AV side (and semi tank) side i couldn't agree. Only thing id "disagree" on is the amount of proto av vs proto tank of 3. Reason is since you compare 1 proto av to 3 basic; that mains 9 basic to 1 proto tank which is a bit to much; as thats over 50% of a team. I'd say 2 proto AV shoudl suffice against a proto tank; and 1-2 for an advanced tank. I'd also be interested in seeing what adv & proto tanks do; both stats and module wise. Why shouldnt it be half the team to take out a proto tank At this rate to get proto vehicles it will require millions of SP for just 1 type of proto vehicle not too mention the massive ISK sink Enforcers milita grade tanks cost 1.2mil per hull, proto fully fitted will prob be closer to 10mil while proto AV is generally 500k if that and basic AV being less than 20k Damn right it should be at least half of the team trying to pound on it if they all milita/basic AV scrubs here is the thing, you are ONLY looking at this situation to benefit yourself making things harder on AV. If you look at the amount of people who actually spec AV in a match (not looking at PC at moment, though fi do, usually its 1-2 AV people plus a tank or 2), as for once ill look at pubs. I'd guess maybe 2-3 people have proto AV in a pub match. Maybe by your standing they'd be able to take out that tank. But if look that they dont have proto AV, you are saying its fair to require 1/2 a team to go AV to kill you which essentially entails them being ripped apart by your infantry. Essentially you are looking at people calling in proto tanks in pubs more often if they notice its random or non AV people b/c they know there wont be any chance of it being destroyed. Now i am one for not balancing based on pubs; but pub play is part of the game so there needs to be some consideration toward it.. Also for the idea that proto tanks w/ require MILLIONS of SP is your assumption. CCP can easily alter where/how/what tank req will be. Personally i wouldnt mind seeing enforcers being removed completely or make those the advanced tanks and making them better. I'd say make the enforcer tank skill what the marauder skill was, but make it a 15x skill. By doing that, you can keep the skill it has, and maybe add something to it. Then have tanks fall under the race branch (ie Caldari, etc). In doing so you'd need to up the req to to get your tanks, in which id say goes to a 12x skill. By doing that, you have your Madi/Gung as your basic, make the enforcers the adv type ( but make them better), and readd the Sagaris & Surya class as proto. It also make tankers have to think on what they really need. As coming from an infantry, i lost a lot of variation b/c of certain skills, yes tankers somewhat had it "easier" in sense of CPU & PG skills, the ease to get your Mady/Gung as its now cheaper then it use to be, and you get an upgraded LAV as well. In that scenario, it makes skilling into those HAV worthwhile and not a sink of 4 levels. By doing so, it makes the tankers "career" path longer, and more "worthwhile. As atm, it is easier to get your basic HAV hull (which all tanker use), then it is to get a proto suit, which is usually 'required" to run proto AV effectively. So yeah, 2-3 specc'd AV should be able to take on a proto tank w/ proto AV. Something need to remember though is, those 2 would be your only real threats in that game, while they need to worry about all 16 players. 1-2 for an adv tank, as proto AV to adv tank, needs to give a semi edge to AV by level. But yes, to my main point and what O'dell said, proto av works fine against your tanks atm, b/c they are basic. It is not to blame AV for being to good, but to blame CCP for not having in adv & proto tanks. When those are added things will start to balance out.
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 317	Posted - 2013.06.19 21:28:00 - [4] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: Forget balancing by pub matches So what if i bring in a proto tank to stomp in a pub match its my choice to do so, whoever is on the other team has to deal with it and its not my problem In PC its a different story, more organized teams, also more tanks most likely It will take millions, the covert ops tanks required 4mil SP to use, if the proto tanks are split off into various types then it will require more SP and if mods are expanded to also basic/adv/proto then it mayeb more SP not too mention more mods and turrets with the new tanks Your comparing basic hull to a proto suit, its no comparision but you can whack on a proto AV weapon to a milita suit anyways like you can use a proto turret on a milita tank First, you NEED to have balance in pub matches. Yes im a hardcore player, but if you dont balance pub games you alienate most of your players who aren't doing PC & FW, which at this time is trash anyways; and when pub matches are balanced it also helps balane PC games, as PC players PLAY PUBS TOO (simple ex; TAR). So yes, unless your dah special, EVERY FPS game tries to balance in pub games as that's where 99% of people play. As i bet if pub games and mechanics were balanced there'd be more people playing Dust then there are now. PC is a totally different beast, as you'll have tanks and AV to deal with. This is how AV corresponds w/ Vehicles, not Vehicle to Vehicle, as the biggest problem there is ow horrible shield tanking is. Those are 2 different topcs. Also, i can compare a proto suit to a basic tank hull b/c both require SP. Unless the game has changed, i was referring to SP required. As it takes ~1.2M to get a basic proto suit; whereas a Basic tank hull costs ~250k. So they gives you almost an extra 1M SP to spend at your leisure. And you know what, your proto tank SHOULD cost a lot and time to get. Your proto hull and my racial hull will be similiar in the amount of SP required to get them, so yes, its fair and balaned then. Also you can fit a proto AV weapon on a militia suit, but is is rather poor, and you wouldn't do it. The way you can fit it is: Caldari Militia Suit, Wiki SL, Toxin, Complex & Enhanced damage mod, basic CPU upgrade, basic Nano. Now that ONLY works b/c of the amount of SP i have into my passive skills. Otherwise that doesn't work at all. HOWEVER, you can fit a Proto Rail on a militia Tank, and still be effective W/O PUTTING ANY SKILLS INTO ANYTHING BUT YOUR TURRET !!!! You can use either Militia tank, and either throw on a militia CPU or PG upgrade, and can run a proto rail. Yes you may be a glass cannon, but if you are using a rail as it should be (via distance), you won't have to worry that much. So yeah, go back to the drawing board Snake, and actually test what you preach. As just debunked your entire reasoning. Go back to MAG w/ =V= who got trashed on so many times. Next in line plz
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 317	Posted - 2013.06.19 22:17:00 - [5] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: Berserker007 wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: Forget balancing by pub matches So what if i bring in a proto tank to stomp in a pub match its my choice to do so, whoever is on the other team has to deal with it and its not my problem In PC its a different story, more organized teams, also more tanks most likely It will take millions, the covert ops tanks required 4mil SP to use, if the proto tanks are split off into various types then it will require more SP and if mods are expanded to also basic/adv/proto then it mayeb more SP not too mention more mods and turrets with the new tanks Your comparing basic hull to a proto suit, its no comparision but you can whack on a proto AV weapon to a milita suit anyways like you can use a proto turret on a milita tank First, you NEED to have balance in pub matches. Yes im a hardcore player, but if you dont balance pub games you alienate most of your players who aren't doing PC & FW, which at this time is trash anyways; and when pub matches are balanced it also helps balane PC games, as PC players PLAY PUBS TOO (simple ex; TAR). So yes, unless your dah special, EVERY FPS game tries to balance in pub games as that's where 99% of people play. As i bet if pub games and mechanics were balanced there'd be more people playing Dust then there are now. PC is a totally different beast, as you'll have tanks and AV to deal with. This is how AV corresponds w/ Vehicles, not Vehicle to Vehicle, as the biggest problem there is ow horrible shield tanking is. Those are 2 different topcs. Also, i can compare a proto suit to a basic tank hull b/c both require SP. Unless the game has changed, i was referring to SP required. As it takes ~1.2M to get a basic proto suit; whereas a Basic tank hull costs ~250k. So they gives you almost an extra 1M SP to spend at your leisure. And you know what, your proto tank SHOULD cost a lot and time to get. Your proto hull and my racial hull will be similiar in the amount of SP required to get them, so yes, its fair and balaned then. Also you can fit a proto AV weapon on a militia suit, but is is rather poor, and you wouldn't do it. The way you can fit it is: Caldari Militia Suit, Wiki SL, Toxin, Complex & Enhanced damage mod, basic CPU upgrade, basic Nano. Now that ONLY works b/c of the amount of SP i have into my passive skills. Otherwise that doesn't work at all. HOWEVER, you can fit a Proto Rail on a militia Tank, and still be effective W/O PUTTING ANY SKILLS INTO ANYTHING BUT YOUR TURRET !!!! You can use either Militia tank, and either throw on a militia CPU or PG upgrade, and can run a proto rail. Yes you may be a glass cannon, but if you are using a rail as it should be (via distance), you won't have to worry that much. So yeah, go back to the drawing board Snake, and actually test what you preach. As just debunked your entire reasoning. Go back to MAG w/ =V= who got trashed on so many times. Next in line plz lol you think you done? You dont balance a game with results from pub matches where it can be groups vs solo randoms - you do that and the entrie game will be broken even more than it is now, what is wrong with you? its as bad as trying to balance AV and vehicles from results in ambush its a bad idea and a stupid one at that Its why PC is much better for stat collectiing and balancing because its organized teams in full proto going at each other But whats better is having a testing room to see if everything working how it should be We dont have proto vehicles so no you cant compare unless you can see into the future, for all we know a proto mauruader may be a 15x skill and cost more SP overall The free suit with proto AV can work and does, try it with a milita tank where the turret alone costs 1mil and gives you 3 shots, if both went up against each other the AV would win easily Im on the drawing board, you must be out of the classroom and in detention because them are some bad ideas and examples you better think of some better ones while you stay behind and write lines if you took the time to read my first post; i gave a possibility on how tank advanced could work; which is what i was basing the SP advancement on. As to where to collect data; you need it from all sources. That includes PC and pubs alike. You need balance in them all; as if a pub isnt balance who will want to play then ? As pub play is part of the game, so needs balance. What makes you so special that your tank should be an i win button in a pub match ? Anything should be have the chance to be destroyed; which means sometimes you need to cater to the less competent (which i cant believe im saying), but you should feel risk in calling out what would be a proto tank in a pub. If there is no fear that you'll be destroyed then there is something wrong with the game. I will agree, we need a testing room or something; as anyone who has been here long enough knows CCP internal testing is trash, and should all be fired, as that salary should be used for a test server. But overall, this game needs to be balance throughout, meaning PC/FW/Pub/Null ,everything. You need to have the same fear of taking out a proto suit in a pub as you do a PC match (only difference is you know ull die in a PC match more). Same goes w/ tanks. You should have fear of being destroyed in a pub, as you would in a PC, except you know it'd happen more in a PC match Overall, im simply sick of the AV-Vehicle topic; as there are to many people who won't budge on whether there side is OP/UP/etc . There are select few i respect in this area (many of which aren't the ones posting here) for their beliefs and being able to see both sides of the coin. To many want one side of the coin to be useless so they have an easier time
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 317	Posted - 2013.06.19 23:04:00 - [6] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: Never said i want it to be an i win button but its a tank it needs to be a tank espc at proto level which means it needs to stand up to proto at least but if im a pub match with a bunch of muppets and i bring out a proto tank and they only have milita/basic i will stomp on them most likely and my tank will survive and so it should, if they bring out proto then so be it Pubs is pubs, random ppl in random matches and only way to balance is matchmaking or by basic/advanced/proto levels and also maybe soloplay and groups But this is just 1 vehicle, the dropship is **** right now and next to unusable anyways and that has a serious problem worse than the tank Either way why should a give a ** CCP are adding a AA HAV for all the dropships which are plaguing the skies so much Know you didnt say you wanted an i win button; but idk how long you've been playig; but back in E3/Codex days; the Sagaris & Suryas, they took 3+ people w/ AV to kill them, and even then it was just iffy if you'd get the kill. I understand tankers opinion more from my alt; but at same time, being AV im nervous people want to go back down that road, where 3-4 proto AV wouldn't kill a tank. Yes, i think 2-3 for a proto tank, pending on type and what is being used and setups is fine, but 3+ is to much. Either way, only CCP can really fix this and it isn't in buffing or nerfing AV or vehicles, its simply ad
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 317	Posted - 2013.06.20 01:20:00 - [7] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: New topic of discussion: Should it take 2 average skill proto AV to kill 1 average skill proto tank? More? Less? My vote is for 2 because if we say 'average skill', that's still 95% of the tanker population. The true diehard tankers will still take 3 or even 4 if they have good infantry. That seems very fair. I agree, 2 avg proto AV against 1 avg proto tank is about fair. Plus the AV'ers may have dffer setups etc, so things may be faster or slower for the kill. I know even now against the good tankers, my usually 3-4 never works; it always hit 1-2 then they withdraw so never get the kill. My most proud kill in any AV sense was when i solo'd Noc's Sagaris back in Chromo . Made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside
Berserker007 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 317	Posted - 2013.06.20 01:23:00 - [8] - Quote Charlotte O'Dell wrote: Commander Tuna wrote: Charlotte O'Dell wrote: Commander Tuna wrote: One man using proto avs should not be able to take out a proto tank, and in fact they cannot unless the tanker is real stupid thoughI have never seen this happen. All the proto tanks I have seen have been just that, tanks. This thread is just about people getting mad when they lose big money on tanks. What proto tanks? My bad I meant the racial enforcers. So here is my question: Should the average tanker (think about the average tanker you see in a game that dies in the first 5 minutes of deploying his tank - 95% of all tanks) require 2 or 3 average av players to kill him with a 90% success rate averaged out over every possible scenario? or more? or less? what AV level are the people using? as that is a big determinant. Personally, i say if is in regards to proto, then NO. 1 should suffice, b/c by being destroyed teaches the tanker something about knowing his abilities, his surroundings, and makes you a better player. Sometimes you need that one person on the other team to make you think twice about what you want to do