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Pilgrim Plymco Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 32	Posted - 2013.06.17 17:22:00 - [31] - Quote hackerzilla wrote: Shouper of BHD wrote: its starting to feel like DUST514 was made by Capcom where guns made for vehicles are fired from the hip, because FGs are as good as LARGE RAILGUNS aka anti tank tank guns, the large railgun has unlimited ammo and a faster fire rate true, but does less damage and considering its cost in ISK, AUR , PG and CPU and requirements this would be crazy to say its balanced, heavy weapons should be toe to toe with small turrets (the small rail guns need a buff btw) but feast your own eyes on the stats, do take inot mind I didn`t post the cost and power requirments so these stats are actually in favor of the FG and it is still obvious they are OP: Large railgun turret STD: DD 1106.9 SD 180 BR 2.3 FI 1.8 CUT 0.3 ADV: DD 1272.9 SD 207 BR 2.5 FI 1.8 CUT 0.3 PRO: DD 1438.9 SD 234 BR 2.5 FI 1.8 CUT 0.3 Large compressed railgun STD: DD 1383.6 SD 225 BR 2.5 FI 2.2 CUT 0.2 ADV: DD 1591.1 SD 258.8 BR 2.5 FI 2.2 CUT 0.2 PRO: DD 1798.7 SD 292.5 BR 2.5 FI 2.2 CUT 0.2 Assault FG stats: STD: no item. ADV: DD 1524.6 SD 254.1 BR 2.8 FI none CUT 2.5 PRO: DD 1663.2 SD 277.2 BR 3.0 FI none CUT 2.5 Breach FG stats: STD: DD 2310 SD 231 BR 1.2 FI none CUT 6.0 ADV: DD 2514 SD 254.1 BR 1.4 FI none CUT 6.0 PRO: DD 2777.2 SD 277.2 BR 1.5 FI none CUT 6.0 normal FG stats: STD: DD 1320 SD 232 BR 2.0 FI none CUT 3.5 ADV: DD 1452 SD 245.1 BR 2.8 FI none CUT 3.5 PRO: DD 1584 SD 277.2 BR 3.0 FI none CUT 3.5 normal small railguns: STD: DD 412.5 SD 90 BR 0.7 FI 1.4 ADV: DD 495 SD 108 BR 0.7 FI 1.4 PRO: DD 536.2 SD 117 BR 0.7 FI 1.4 Compressed small railguns: STD: DD 472.5 SD 90 BR 0.7 FI 1.4 ADV: DD 565 SD 108 BR 0.7 FI 1.4 PRO: DD 616.2 SD 117 BR 0.7 FI 1.4 This might just be a hunch, but I'm pretty sure that's why they are called "anti-armor". Whatever that may mean... Yeah but when you see the actual numbers something seems either Way OP about the hand-held anti-armor FG or way UP about the mounted ones for vehicles and placements.
Knight SoIaire Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 824	Posted - 2013.06.17 17:24:00 - [32] - Quote Can I replace my Large Turret with a Forge Gun, please?
Shouper of BHD Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 174	Posted - 2013.06.17 17:29:00 - [33] - Quote Knight SoIaire wrote: Can I replace my Large Turret with a Forge Gun, please? go with the PRO Breach, does 1k more damage then the compressed PRO large railgun and with the total of 8,400 HP damage per MAG reloading won`t be necessary since the tank would be dead!
Washlee Not Guilty EoN. 168	Posted - 2013.06.17 17:56:00 - [34] - Quote Shouper of BHD wrote: its starting to feel like DUST514 was made by Capcom where guns made for vehicles are fired from the hip, because FGs are as good as LARGE RAILGUNS aka anti tank tank guns, the large railgun has unlimited ammo and a faster fire rate true, but does less damage and considering its cost in ISK, AUR , PG and CPU and requirements this would be crazy to say its balanced, heavy weapons should be toe to toe with small turrets (the small rail guns need a buff btw) but feast your own eyes on the stats, do take inot mind I didn`t post the cost and power requirments so these stats are actually in favor of the FG and it is still obvious they are OP: Large railgun turret STD: DD 1106.9 SD 180 BR 2.3 FI 1.8 CUT 0.3 ADV: DD 1272.9 SD 207 BR 2.5 FI 1.8 CUT 0.3 PRO: DD 1438.9 SD 234 BR 2.5 FI 1.8 CUT 0.3 Large compressed railgun STD: DD 1383.6 SD 225 BR 2.5 FI 2.2 CUT 0.2 ADV: DD 1591.1 SD 258.8 BR 2.5 FI 2.2 CUT 0.2 PRO: DD 1798.7 SD 292.5 BR 2.5 FI 2.2 CUT 0.2 Assault FG stats: STD: no item. ADV: DD 1524.6 SD 254.1 BR 2.8 FI none CUT 2.5 PRO: DD 1663.2 SD 277.2 BR 3.0 FI none CUT 2.5 Breach FG stats: STD: DD 2310 SD 231 BR 1.2 FI none CUT 6.0 ADV: DD 2514 SD 254.1 BR 1.4 FI none CUT 6.0 PRO: DD 2777.2 SD 277.2 BR 1.5 FI none CUT 6.0 normal FG stats: STD: DD 1320 SD 232 BR 2.0 FI none CUT 3.5 ADV: DD 1452 SD 245.1 BR 2.8 FI none CUT 3.5 PRO: DD 1584 SD 277.2 BR 3.0 FI none CUT 3.5 normal small railguns: STD: DD 412.5 SD 90 BR 0.7 FI 1.4 ADV: DD 495 SD 108 BR 0.7 FI 1.4 PRO: DD 536.2 SD 117 BR 0.7 FI 1.4 Compressed small railguns: STD: DD 472.5 SD 90 BR 0.7 FI 1.4 ADV: DD 565 SD 108 BR 0.7 FI 1.4 PRO: DD 616.2 SD 117 BR 0.7 FI 1.4 Agreed Proto FG does more damage than the Proto Railgun Doesn't make any sense
Devil Music Intara Direct Action Caldari State 25	Posted - 2013.06.17 18:06:00 - [35] - Quote Sir Meode wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Railguns get zoom, UNLIMITED ammo, less charge time. Railguns also can fire again like 4 times with half a second intervals without needing to charge again (more DPS). You can't balance properly if you only look at one aspect. My railgun wont kill a tank as fast as a proto forgegun will but your tank will live longer. you also have twice the range.
Devil Music Intara Direct Action Caldari State 25	Posted - 2013.06.17 18:08:00 - [36] - Quote Knight SoIaire wrote: Can I replace my Large Turret with a Forge Gun, please? you wont be able to red line any more. your shots wont reach anything
Shouper of BHD Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 175	Posted - 2013.06.17 18:09:00 - [37] - Quote Devil Music wrote: Sir Meode wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Railguns get zoom, UNLIMITED ammo, less charge time. Railguns also can fire again like 4 times with half a second intervals without needing to charge again (more DPS). You can't balance properly if you only look at one aspect. My railgun wont kill a tank as fast as a proto forgegun will but your tank will live longer. you also have twice the range. it also costs like 10x the cost if compared to a PRO FG? FGs don`t use like 1k PG and a ton of CPU, the FG`s cost was lowered but not the stats, what makes the FG beyond the HMG where the HMG got the hammer and nothing was taken away from the FG? even now the HMG isn`t as good as it once was because the cost was changed but not the FG, no the FG must be balanced to a tank`s cannon and be called balanced.
Knight SoIaire Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 827	Posted - 2013.06.17 18:10:00 - [38] - Quote Devil Music wrote: Knight SoIaire wrote: Can I replace my Large Turret with a Forge Gun, please? you wont be able to red line any more. your shots wont reach anything I wont have to, with so little PG/CPU being invested into my turrets I could focus on defence, meaning no one will be able to kill me. Problem solved.
Shouper of BHD Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 175	Posted - 2013.06.17 18:11:00 - [39] - Quote Devil Music wrote: Knight SoIaire wrote: Can I replace my Large Turret with a Forge Gun, please? you wont be able to red line any more. your shots wont reach anything I know knight, he has the balls to fight in a tank face to face so he's not the redline type, can the FGs on the towers say the same against the redline railgun tanks though? what is the difference between them and.. well sorry for redundancy but them?
Sgt Buttscratch G I A N T EoN. 161	Posted - 2013.06.17 18:13:00 - [40] - Quote Forge gunners are great for their job, but far from OP, they are easy sniper targets, have minimal fightback ability when closed down, leave as

Shouper of BHD Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 176	Posted - 2013.06.17 18:18:00 - [41] - Quote Sgt Buttscratch wrote: Forge gunners are great for their job, but far from OP, they are easy sniper targets, have minimal fightback ability when closed down, leave as good job bringing in anti infantry roles and bad moments in battle to justify a AV weapon vs AV weapon argument.
Telleth DUST University Ivy League 51	Posted - 2013.06.17 19:39:00 - [42] - Quote I think that game mechanics wise, the FG is a little OP at the moment, but ADV and PROTO tanks should fix that. On the other hand, lore and just plain common sense wise, it's rather messed up
iceyburnz Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 750	Posted - 2013.06.17 19:49:00 - [43] - Quote Remember kids, if you don't hit, damage is 0. In reference to the small vehicle turrets.
Shouper of BHD Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 176	Posted - 2013.06.17 20:04:00 - [44] - Quote Telleth wrote: I think that game mechanics wise, the FG is a little OP at the moment, but ADV and PROTO tanks should fix that. On the other hand, lore and just plain common sense wise, it's rather messed up the argument isn`t HP the argument is that the large railgun has to compete with FGs, they should be that close in comparison and both sides of the argument know they are close and some even said even with in defense of FGs! the idiots weren`t realizing that THATS THE ISSUE (not saying you are 1 of them, just find it funny how they were supporting the OP). its that the FG is doing to much damage and should be as good as a small railgun, balance wise small railguns and FGs need to meet half way since FGs are OP and small railguns are UP.
Goric Rumis Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 173	Posted - 2013.06.17 21:21:00 - [45] - Quote Shouper of BHD wrote: Knight SoIaire wrote: Can I replace my Large Turret with a Forge Gun, please? go with the PRO Breach, does 1k more damage then the compressed PRO large railgun and with the total of 8,400 HP damage per MAG reloading won`t be necessary since the tank would be dead! Just be careful about firing it, because it takes 6 seconds to charge and you'll be a sitting duck while it charges. Then again, who can kill a tank in 6 seconds? The whole argument that the FG is overpowered is based on pretty shaky math and an adherence to a certain idea about how things work. It's like when people complain that each HMG bullet should do as much damage as an AR bullet. There are a ton of balancing factors that don't even have to do with the weapon itself, but with the roles that can equip the weapons, the other modules that can be equipped, the mobility of the respective bearers, armor/shield levels, susceptibility to other battlefield roles, etc. I realize this is all going to sound like gibberish to the person who says 2777 damage every 6.0 seconds is better than 1798 damage every 2.4 seconds, but there's a lot more that goes into balancing than just raw damage.
Sir Meode Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 670	Posted - 2013.06.17 21:30:00 - [46] - Quote Devil Music wrote: Sir Meode wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Railguns get zoom, UNLIMITED ammo, less charge time. Railguns also can fire again like 4 times with half a second intervals without needing to charge again (more DPS). You can't balance properly if you only look at one aspect. My railgun wont kill a tank as fast as a proto forgegun will but your tank will live longer. you also have twice the range. it will live longer than infantry yes, its a tank, whats your point? it has longer range yes maybe but not longer view distance, a forgegunner has the best view distance in game so its irrelivant how far you can shoot when you cant see an enemy to shoot at. Railgun view distance is less than forge gun range just so you know!
Shouper of BHD Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 176	Posted - 2013.06.18 18:03:00 - [47] - Quote Goric Rumis wrote: Shouper of BHD wrote: Knight SoIaire wrote: Can I replace my Large Turret with a Forge Gun, please? go with the PRO Breach, does 1k more damage then the compressed PRO large railgun and with the total of 8,400 HP damage per MAG reloading won`t be necessary since the tank would be dead! Just be careful about firing it, because it takes 6 seconds to charge and you'll be a sitting duck while it charges. Then again, who can kill a tank in 6 seconds? The whole argument that the FG is overpowered is based on pretty shaky math and an adherence to a certain idea about how things work. It's like when people complain that each HMG bullet should do as much damage as an AR bullet. There are a ton of balancing factors that don't even have to do with the weapon itself, but with the roles that can equip the weapons, the other modules that can be equipped, the mobility of the respective bearers, armor/shield levels, susceptibility to other battlefield roles, etc. I realize this is all going to sound like gibberish to the person who says 2777 damage every 6.0 seconds is better than 1798 damage every 2.4 seconds, but there's a lot more that goes into balancing than just raw damage. CCP can clear this up by showing us the top 10 vehicle killers in the game since they do have recorded stats, also all things considered the FG is OP because: its to close in comparison to the large railgun, no one can say exactly without doing a ton of math but we know it beyond what is should be. when the market prices changed the FG was left un touched while the HMG got hammered to adjust to its new cost and barely got recompisated for it, so the FG is WAY better then what its worth. this we know for fact.
martinofski Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 220	Posted - 2013.06.18 18:39:00 - [48] - Quote I guess they should allow you to but a breach on top of your tank, but bare in mind you will charge for 5+ seconds, while not being able to move at all. Did you quickly compared DPS by the way? Show us your results.
Shouper of BHD Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 176	Posted - 2013.06.18 18:55:00 - [49] - Quote martinofski wrote: I guess they should allow you to but a breach on top of your tank, but bare in mind you will charge for 5+ seconds, while not being able to move at all. Did you quickly compared DPS by the way? Show us your results. sorry I forgot what DPS was..... Direct splash damage is all I can think of and if that's it, DD = Direct damage SD = splash damage...
Knight SoIaire Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 838	Posted - 2013.06.18 22:21:00 - [50] - Quote Goric Rumis wrote: Shouper of BHD wrote: Knight SoIaire wrote: Can I replace my Large Turret with a Forge Gun, please? go with the PRO Breach, does 1k more damage then the compressed PRO large railgun and with the total of 8,400 HP damage per MAG reloading won`t be necessary since the tank would be dead! Just be careful about firing it, because it takes 6 seconds to charge and you'll be a sitting duck while it charges. Then again, who can kill a tank in 6 seconds? The whole argument that the FG is overpowered is based on pretty shaky math and an adherence to a certain idea about how things work. It's like when people complain that each HMG bullet should do as much damage as an AR bullet. There are a ton of balancing factors that don't even have to do with the weapon itself, but with the roles that can equip the weapons, the other modules that can be equipped, the mobility of the respective bearers, armor/shield levels, susceptibility to other battlefield roles, etc. I realize this is all going to sound like gibberish to the person who says 2777 damage every 6.0 seconds is better than 1798 damage every 2.4 seconds, but there's a lot more that goes into balancing than just raw damage. Means it only takes two smart heavies to coordinate and synchronize their shots to take out a tank that wont even have the chance to fight back. Breach/Basic Forge Guns should lose accuracy for each second they hold their charge.

Yeva Kalsani Reckoners 147	Posted - 2013.06.18 22:22:00 - [51] - Quote Shouper of BHD wrote: martinofski wrote: I guess they should allow you to but a breach on top of your tank, but bare in mind you will charge for 5+ seconds, while not being able to move at all. Did you quickly compared DPS by the way? Show us your results. sorry I forgot what DPS was..... Direct splash damage is all I can think of and if that's it, DD = Direct damage SD = splash damage... DPS = damage per second
RuckingFetard Better Hide R Die D.E.F.I.A.N.C.E 200	Posted - 2013.06.19 04:28:00 - [52] - Quote Most aren't considering the fact that Heavies turn slower than rail guns....
TheAmazing FlyingPig Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 1021	Posted - 2013.06.19 04:37:00 - [53] - Quote Raw numbers mean everything. Raw numbers are all that matter. Take nothing outside of math into consideration. Math is king. Math is omnipitent. If a number is greater than another number, the greater number should be reduced to the smaller number in the name of balance. Ignore the fact that a rail tank gets to fire while keeping all of his speed, has unlimited ammo, never needs to reload, is nearly immune to all forms of non-AV weaponry, and makes children have nightmares of metal monsters drilling holes through their homes. Ignore the fact that a forge gunner must deal with full damage from every weapon type, takes at least two seconds to fire, loses most of his already non-existant mobility while charging (or becomes immobile if you're using Breach), has a very limited clip, and can only watch in dismay as his prey leaves his sight with no hope of ever catching up to him. But one number is bigger than the other, so forge is OP and should be nerfed. EDIT: I should add that I'm a dedicated Gunnlogi pilot, and I beleive forges are fine.
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES Eternal Syndicate 312	Posted - 2013.06.19 06:47:00 - [54] - Quote Sgt Buttscratch wrote: Forge gunners are great for their job, but far from OP, they are easy sniper targets, have minimal fightback ability when closed down, leave as Speak for yourself. Snipers are an annoyance. I get a lot of kills with my forge gun fit. My toxin is the only gun that pulls its weight though. I wish i could find out how many kills i have with it.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens League of Infamy 222	Posted - 2013.06.19 06:52:00 - [55] - Quote TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote: Raw numbers mean everything. Raw numbers are all that matter. Take nothing outside of math into consideration. Math is king. Math is omnipitent. If a number is greater than another number, the greater number should be reduced to the smaller number in the name of balance. Ignore the fact that a rail tank gets to fire while keeping all of his speed, has unlimited ammo, never needs to reload, is nearly immune to all forms of non-AV weaponry, and makes children have nightmares of metal monsters drilling holes through their homes. Ignore the fact that a forge gunner must deal with full damage from every weapon type, takes at least two seconds to fire, loses most of his already non-existant mobility while charging (or becomes immobile if you're using Breach), has a very limited clip, and can only watch in dismay as his prey leaves his sight with no hope of ever catching up to him. But one number is bigger than the other, so forge is OP and should be nerfed. I see what you did there and I like it. You provided the details on the drawbacks of being a Forge Gunner that QQing tanker jocks always brush off as inconsequential. However, I must add mention that the rail turret has twice the range of the Forge Gun and that rail turrets OHK any infantry, including heavies, that it hits.
Ignatius Crumwald IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 585	Posted - 2013.06.19 07:21:00 - [56] - Quote Sorry dude, but railguns are on a tank that has resistance to small arms and moves at 20x the speed and 10 times the health of a heavy suit. The DPS on a railgun is way higher, it fires twice as fast, has longer range, can zoom, and the cooldown is faster than the reload on a Forge. Tanks die way faster to other tanks than they do a forge. This thread is dildos.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 649	Posted - 2013.06.19 07:21:00 - [57] - Quote martinofski wrote: I guess they should allow you to but a breach on top of your tank, but bare in mind you will charge for 5+ seconds, while not being able to move at all. Did you quickly compared DPS by the way? Show us your results. sure... large standard proto rail 798 large compressed proto 817 assault FG proto w/ reduced CUT 886 standard FG proto w/ reduce CUT 603 breach FG proto w/ reduce CUT 617 as you can see the assault forge wins the dps race and this is before damage related skill bonuses but the numbers still holds up. only compared proto because really do the lower tiers matter? on all the forge I added in the skill to reduce the charge up timer. there is no skill for it in rail turrets or any skill that has an equal for rails so it is for more true comparison of raw numbers.
Ignatius Crumwald IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 585	Posted - 2013.06.19 07:23:00 - [58] - Quote ladwar wrote: martinofski wrote: I guess they should allow you to but a breach on top of your tank, but bare in mind you will charge for 5+ seconds, while not being able to move at all. Did you quickly compared DPS by the way? Show us your results. sure... large standard proto rail 798 large compressed proto 817 assault FG proto w/ reduced CUT 886 standard FG proto w/ reduce CUT 603 breach FG proto w/ reduce CUT 617 as you can see the assault forge wins the dps race and this is before damage related skill bonuses but the numbers still holds up. dildos.
ladwar Dead Six Initiative Lokun Listamenn 649	Posted - 2013.06.19 07:33:00 - [59] - Quote Ignatius Crumwald wrote: ladwar wrote: martinofski wrote: I guess they should allow you to but a breach on top of your tank, but bare in mind you will charge for 5+ seconds, while not being able to move at all. Did you quickly compared DPS by the way? Show us your results. sure... large standard proto rail 798 large compressed proto 817 assault FG proto w/ reduced CUT 886 standard FG proto w/ reduce CUT 603 breach FG proto w/ reduce CUT 617 as you can see the assault forge wins the dps race and this is before damage related skill bonuses but the numbers still holds up. dildos. I take it you don't like to see your point go wrong Ignatius Crumwald wrote: The DPS on a railgun is way higher, it fires twice as fast, point in question^ I just shown the DPS so now for the RoF. the RoF on rails is a hard 1.8 for standard and 2.2 for compressed while there is no RoF but a charge up timer and the charge up timer for the assault forge after its skill (5% per level reduce) bring it down to 1.875. if you want to say something have a real point to bring up rather then one sided guesses.
Ignatius Crumwald IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 586	Posted - 2013.06.19 07:56:00 - [60] - Quote ladwar wrote: Ignatius Crumwald wrote: ladwar wrote: martinofski wrote: I guess they should allow you to but a breach on top of your tank, but bare in mind you will charge for 5+ seconds, while not being able to move at all. Did you quickly compared DPS by the way? Show us your results. sure... large standard proto rail 798 large compressed proto 817 assault FG proto w/ reduced CUT 886 standard FG proto w/ reduce CUT 603 breach FG proto w/ reduce CUT 617 as you can see the assault forge wins the dps race and this is before damage related skill bonuses but the numbers still holds up. dildos. I take it you don't like to see your point go wrong Ignatius Crumwald wrote: The DPS on a railgun is way higher, it fires twice as fast, point in question^ I just shown the DPS so now for the RoF. the RoF on rails is a hard 1.8 for standard and 2.2 for compressed while there is no RoF but a charge up timer and the charge up timer for the assault forge after its skill (5% per level reduce) bring it down to 1.875. if you want to say something have a real point to bring up rather then one sided guesses. You are talking about the first shot, once a railgun is charged it fires faster than an assault forge and can move aroud at full speed zooming in while doing it. Honestly, this is the stupidest thread I have ever laid eyes on. Everyone whining about a few hundred damage difference on their 10,000+ HP tank should maybe just take their PS3 and leave it under the rear wheel of a city bus.



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