The problem with AV grenades is that they allow rock and scissors to become one. AV grenades are too powerful for what they give. Imagine a group of assaults simultaneously throwing basic AV grenades at a Madrugar. Those assaults sacrifice nothing and gain a strong AV advantage.

It's not only that people sometimes play the wrong role which is why they end up crying for nerfs, but the whole rock-paper-scissor thing is messed up.

Problem with this concept is that 90% of the players will be rock and nothing else, due to Dust's SP sinks and grind they won't be able to switch to paper or scissors. Thus the majority won't be able to effectively counter such tactics without sacrificing their specialization.

Everyone gets a free AV starter fit. I've used that to harass and kill dozens of vehicles.
Militia grade FGs are pretty good too and don't require much of a SP investment.

yep AV grenades are so powerful fully specced lav's can take 11 of them and keep on trucking >.>


I can fire my averagely specced swarm launchers all day and they don't even bother wiping the blood off their windshields to see what hit them.


seriously I get vehicle drivers never want their **** to die, but their is nothing wrong with av greandes, to any seriously specced vehicle driver they are a joke, that can easily be dodged but most decide to be stubborn about it and ty to tank 10+ of them.

Militia AV does **** against current LAV's.
My BPO LAV with BPO fittings and zero skills invested into vehicles doesn't get scratched by militia AV.

The problem is that in this case the paper is free, the scissors are not.

The problem is that in this case the paper is free, the scissors are not.

The problem with AV grenades is that they allow rock and scissors to become one. AV grenades are too powerful for what they give. Imagine a group of assaults simultaneously throwing basic AV grenades at a Madrugar. Those assaults sacrifice nothing and gain a strong AV advantage.

It's not only that people sometimes play the wrong role which is why they end up crying for nerfs, but the whole rock-paper-scissor thing is messed up.

Problem with this concept is that 90% of the players will be rock and nothing else, due to Dust's SP sinks and grind they won't be able to switch to paper or scissors. Thus the majority won't be able to effectively counter such tactics without sacrificing their specialization.

So a proto AV taking 3-4 hits on a limbus is scissors?
What about my Ishukone Watch Saga that is permanent that can take three?

Or the same vehicle taking two proto swarms shots with 3x damage mods? (Tested with my friend)

Before the LAV buff, road killing wasn't a big deal because one AV or one Swarm could take out the free LAV's.
Not anymore.


This is where your entire argument falls apart and this is why your post is bad.

The problem is that LAVs are more powerful than they should be while HAVs are not quite as resilient as they should be. I think if CCP makes LAVs take something like 100% bonus damage from explosive and kinetic damage due to their light frames would fix the death taxi problem.

Before the LAV buff, road killing wasn't a big deal because one AV or one Swarm could take out the free LAV's.

Before the LAV buff, the only people who ever rolled LAVs where new players who wanted to test a vehicle and didn't know how much they sucked.

I remember in beta I would hop in LAV's before I realised that 1 hit from a militia SL would take down all your shields and most your armor. That was unless you already had a bit of damage. Then you just straight up died.

So once I got that through my head I just stopped using them.

By extension AV was what you pulled if someone spawned a tank. With tanks being as expensive as they are you could go entire matches where nobody pulled a tank, and only 1-2 scrubs pull an LAV.

Now because people actually use vehicles, I can go entire matches in my AV suit. That is freaking awesome.

So what if someone who tanks their LAV can take a few hits? I use the terrain to my advantage so it isn't a big deal.

Now that I'm really getting into and starting to enjoy my AV roll. The rock crowd is crying "Take it back to rock, rock, rock!!!"

Screw that. Vehicles are a part of this game and people shouldn't be able to 1 shot them with weapons that lock on SUPER easy just because you don't like having to adapt.

Then make Plasma launchers a one shot against LAV's.

The problem with AV grenades is that they allow rock and scissors to become one. AV grenades are too powerful for what they give. Imagine a group of assaults simultaneously throwing basic AV grenades at a Madrugar. Those assaults sacrifice nothing and gain a strong AV advantage.

It's not only that people sometimes play the wrong role which is why they end up crying for nerfs, but the whole rock-paper-scissor thing is messed up.

The fit I'm mainly using is actually 75% rock 25% scissors.

Once I get the SP, I'll probably be able to do better AV

AV grenades have their place- losing a regular grenade can damage your AI potential

I know these two lovely girls that always ride HAV in every FPS game that has em. My "puma twins". heh. (Battlefield bad company 2 players would have probably played against them)

One drives the HAV. the other rides along. but carries AV and repair tool (if available). Both switch roles. They DON'T LOSE AGAINST OTHER HAV. It's takes a very concentrated effort to bring their HAV down.

ROCK, paper, scissors. Yes.

but if you hold the rock and paper. then that's a plus.

Rock, Paper, Scissor, Lizard, Spock.

So a proto AV taking 3-4 hits on a limbus is scissors?
What about my Ishukone Watch Saga that is permanent that can take three?

Or the same vehicle taking two proto swarms shots with 3x damage mods? (Tested with my friend)

Before the LAV buff, road killing wasn't a big deal because one AV or one Swarm could take out the free LAV's.
Not anymore.


This is where your entire argument falls apart and this is why your post is bad.

its ok i get you're reference lol i forget what beats what though

The rules


I agree that dedicated AV can be kind of boring; once people realize there is a good forgegunner on the field the LAV's disappear, and the blaster tanks get replaced with hill-sniping-railguns. This does mean that the few dedicated AV guys have a game changing impact on the match... kind of cool no?

And besides there's nothing keeping them from hitting up a supply depot to change fits, untill the vehicles come back

The rules


I agree that dedicated AV can be kind of boring; once people realize there is a good forgegunner on the field the LAV's disappear, and the blaster tanks get replaced with hill-sniping-railguns. This does mean that the few dedicated AV guys have a game changing impact on the match... kind of cool no?

And besides there's nothing keeping them from hitting up a supply depot to change fits, untill the vehicles come back

Heres the problem. You chose Rock to start, you see paper out there, you run to supply depot to grab scissors and then the paper drives across the map and you are stuck sitting around hoping he comes back while trying not to get crushed by rocks. If paper comes back then yay, you can cut him up, but otherwise its boring as hell for most of the time.

The problem with this format is it relies not on fun fights between two forces able to hurt eachother, but simply on hoping the other team fields nothing that can hurt you. Its so all or nothing right now, and your rps analogy shows exactly that. Vehicles are only effective when the other side chooses to field no AV, but once a couple dedicated AV are in, the vehicles become instantly useless.

The only reason vehicles are successful now is because AV is so boring to play, nobody does.

A better game would be one in which everyone can have a fun fight against everyone, with certain roles have advantages. Instead its balanced on "you win against this type, you lose against this." which isnt exactly a good foundation.

Smart vehicles take out supply depots first thing to make life hard on AV. So then you are forced to actually run dedicated AV just in case they come back, which is super boring. Luckily Im good at popping heads with my scrambler pistol (actually better with it than most weapons) so I can still have a bit of fun.

The rules


I agree that dedicated AV can be kind of boring; once people realize there is a good forgegunner on the field the LAV's disappear, and the blaster tanks get replaced with hill-sniping-railguns. This does mean that the few dedicated AV guys have a game changing impact on the match... kind of cool no?

And besides there's nothing keeping them from hitting up a supply depot to change fits, untill the vehicles come back

Dedicated AV here. i blow sh it up from start to finish. i hate it if anything survives. i am top on the score board most times.

for those pesky firefights i rely on the toxin. its OP in the right hands. plus a forge gun makes people run. i aim for the protos first, my squad can pick em off once they have no sheilds. pretty soon those assault suits stop engaging and run. tac ars must be expensive.

PS. I have 0 points in vehicle command. I play AV, and can confirm you are full of crap.



Funny. When I hit LAV's with my standard and before that militia AV they didn't seem to be not taking a scratch or wiping it off their windshield. Then mainly seemed to be blowing the hell up.

The problem with AV grenades is that they allow rock and scissors to become one. AV grenades are too powerful for what they give. Imagine a group of assaults simultaneously throwing basic AV grenades at a Madrugar. Those assaults sacrifice nothing and gain a strong AV advantage.

It's not only that people sometimes play the wrong role which is why they end up crying for nerfs, but the whole rock-paper-scissor thing is messed up.

Then make Plasma launchers a one shot against LAV's.

I haven't even playing all that long so I don't know what LAVs were like before but I can say they're pretty damn annoying now. From the sounds of things it's not an easy vehicle to balance, make them weaker and they're useless for what I assume is they're intended purpose, troop transport. Regardless I hope CCP come up with a fix soon as at the moment around 50% of my deaths are from being hit by a buggy, quite a frustrating way to die in an FPS game.

What a narrow minded point of view. What a lot of people forget here is that you are rarely 1v1.

I'm fully aware of it. You seem to be the one forgetting it. You are talking about how you personally can't counter vehicles. Don't. Find a buddy who is good with AV and squad with him. Someone who runs SL and SMG or Flaylock can be dedicated AV and still help you out a bit in-between vehicles.

And spare me the narrow minded crap. You aren't any more open minded than I am.

As I mentioned previously, you can take on one LAV (if you're good or lucky), and that's it and you have to restock.

Only if you are relying in AV nades to fill you AV role. AV nades are... grenades... not a primary weapon. As such they have weaknesses compared to SLs and forge guns which are the primary weapons of the players who use them. Do you really think people should have access to assault rifles and AV as good as SL's and forges on the same dropsuit?

Those are both good for multiple LAVs in the hands of semi accurate user. I mean really, a SL can take down most tanks if the user lives / maintains line of sight long enough to do it solo. A forgegun EASILY can. That's before speccing into increased ammo or equipping a nanohive.

As for your reply, it doesn't make sense. Yes I can spec into whatever I want but that's the catch, I have to spec into it. I shouldn't have to spec into anything to effectively take out militia LAV's. Taking out anything else on the other hand, is fine.

Before you tell me that GÇ£You don't, it's called militia AVGÇ¥ - Militia LAV's take 3 packed AV grenades to kill, and at least two militia swarms (which means you can hardly fight infantry at all). I have no problem with your arguments against strong vehicles, if I want to take out GÇ£logilavsGÇ¥ then I should spec into better AV.

Let's break this down simply:

Regular infantry = rock: Your regular infantry come with weapons such as ARs, shotguns, nova knives, MDs, anti-infantry grenades etc. that are great for killing other infantry, including AV infantry who are not very good at killing you back, but are utter crap vs. vehicles.

Vehicles = paper: Vehicles can roam around the battlefield, either nearly immune to regular infantry weapons (tanks) or too agile for them to be effective unless you stand still (LAVs and Dropships). However Swarm launchers, AV grenades, forge guns, and other AV weapons are the bane of your existence.

AV infantry = scissors: You sacrifice regular infantry weapons that are great for killing other infantry to be able to easily take on vehicles much more easily. By taking cover in places that are hard for vehicles to reach and shooting them with your heavy damage weapons you really make their life hell. But you tend to get stomped all over when you come up against the AR toting masses.

The game has been so kind as to make it so ANYONE can play rock, paper, or scissors, by providing us with free AR and sniper suits, free AV suits, and the free LAV everyone keeps moaning about.

Let's apply what we've learned: Your team is getting pushed to the red line by 3 tanks and 2 LAVs. What do you spawn? Reg inf, AV inf, or vehicles? If you're my team from earlier today, then apparently your answer is regular infantry! Congrats! You lost a game elementary schoolers are able to comprehend!

The vehicle "problem" isn't an issue of balance. It's an issue of idiots playing rock every single time and wondering why the matches are starting to fill up with paper.

ps ~ the current alteration to LAV physics may still need looked at, the total lack of momentum loss when running hostiles down seems a bit off.

I (and many in my corp) are thrilled when we see "paper" in match because most of the time it means extra points and a higher ISK payout. We all have some form of AV fit (even if it's free) and will happily respawn/depot swap into AV when needed. This week I played a few matches with my corp where we used free LAVs to blitz into the redline and take out hostile HAVs hiding behind cover there.

Have I been run over in a LAV or shot by a HAV this week? Sure. But more often than not a fully loaded LAV means I get 3 kills and a bonus 40 WP for one nade toss, while a fully loaded HAV means I get 3 kills and a bonus 150 WP for the use of three nades. And for those who don't use/want to use AV nades? Climb up on something high with a militia forge or swarms and aim at the weak spot on vehicles, it works wonders.

Oh and a closing note, I'm doing all of this without proto anything (including damage mods or tank) on my AV fits.
Specifically I have level 3 in swarm launcher and level 1 in grenadier. If memory serves that's an SP total investment of less than one week (tho I use boosters so it may be a bit over 1 week for those without).

0.02 ISK
Cross

ps ~ the current alteration to LAV physics may still need looked at, the total lack of momentum loss when running hostiles down seems a bit off.

I find that there most often is a lack of momentum when I hit people, especially heavies. I hit one yesterday and I pretty much barrelled off into the sunset.

As for this whole debate, my issue is simply with AV's ineffectiveness vs militia LAV's (and maybe shield tanked logistics ones as flux grenades seem to do nothing). The other problem is probably not with LAV's at all, but when I am being stomped by prototypes using officer gear and superior skill, then call out an LAV that cost me nothing and start mowing them down then I think something is wrong. I wouldn't mind if my LAV cost some cash to call in, that could work.