DUST Search - The vehicle "problem" is a matter of you failing at rock/paper/scissors

Cross Atu wrote:

Tharak Meuridiar wrote:

Let's break this down simply:

Regular infantry = rock: Your regular infantry come with weapons such as ARs, shotguns, nova knives, MDs, anti-infantry grenades etc. that are great for killing other infantry, including AV infantry who are not very good at killing you back, but are utter crap vs. vehicles.

Vehicles = paper: Vehicles can roam around the battlefield, either nearly immune to regular infantry weapons (tanks) or too agile for them to be effective unless you stand still (LAVs and Dropships). However Swarm launchers, AV grenades, forge guns, and other AV weapons are the bane of your existence.

AV infantry = scissors: You sacrifice regular infantry weapons that are great for killing other infantry to be able to easily take on vehicles much more easily. By taking cover in places that are hard for vehicles to reach and shooting them with your heavy damage weapons you really make their life hell. But you tend to get stomped all over when you come up against the AR toting masses.

The game has been so kind as to make it so ANYONE can play rock, paper, or scissors, by providing us with free AR and sniper suits, free AV suits, and the free LAV everyone keeps moaning about.

Let's apply what we've learned: Your team is getting pushed to the red line by 3 tanks and 2 LAVs. What do you spawn? Reg inf, AV inf, or vehicles? If you're my team from earlier today, then apparently your answer is regular infantry! Congrats! You lost a game elementary schoolers are able to comprehend!

The vehicle "problem" isn't an issue of balance. It's an issue of idiots playing rock every single time and wondering why the matches are starting to fill up with paper.

I (and many in my corp) are thrilled when we see "paper" in match because most of the time it means extra points and a higher ISK payout. We all have some form of AV fit (even if it's free) and will happily respawn/depot swap into AV when needed. This week I played a few matches with my corp where we used free LAVs to blitz into the redline and take out hostile HAVs hiding behind cover there.

Have I been run over in a LAV or shot by a HAV this week? Sure. But more often than not a fully loaded LAV means I get 3 kills and a bonus 40 WP for one nade toss, while a fully loaded HAV means I get 3 kills and a bonus 150 WP for the use of three nades. And for those who don't use/want to use AV nades? Climb up on something high with a militia forge or swarms and aim at the weak spot on vehicles, it works wonders.

Oh and a closing note, I'm doing all of this without proto anything (including damage mods or tank) on my AV fits.
Specifically I have level 3 in swarm launcher and level 1 in grenadier. If memory serves that's an SP total investment of less than one week (tho I use boosters so it may be a bit over 1 week for those without).

0.02 ISK
Cross

ps ~ the current alteration to LAV physics may still need looked at, the total lack of momentum loss when running hostiles down seems a bit off.


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RINON114 B.S.A.A. General Tso's Alliance 209	Posted - 2013.06.08 08:37:00 - [1] - Quote What a narrow minded point of view. What a lot of people forget here is that you are rarely 1v1. Sure, I can pack AV grenades and take on the first LAV that comes my way, but the militia LAV I just destroyed that required 3 packed AV nades has a raspberry friend who called in another death taxi and guess what? I'm all out of nades. Carry a nanohive? I do, and it's rarely enough when there are five LAV's just burning around the battlefield like a gang of angry post-apocalyptians. There is a problem, and it's that the LAV hp balance was totally unnecessary, especially for the militia LAV's. The logistics LAV is also a complete joke, even against coordinated AV those things don't die.
RINON114 B.S.A.A. General Tso's Alliance 209	Posted - 2013.06.08 09:00:00 - [2] - Quote Tharak Meuridiar wrote: RINON114 wrote: What a narrow minded point of view. What a lot of people forget here is that you are rarely 1v1. I'm fully aware of it. You seem to be the one forgetting it. You are talking about how you personally can't counter vehicles. Don't. Find a buddy who is good with AV and squad with him. Someone who runs SL and SMG or Flaylock can be dedicated AV and still help you out a bit in-between vehicles. And spare me the narrow minded crap. You aren't any more open minded than I am. I regret to inform you that I very well may be. I told you the point of view on this matter was narrow minded, not you yourself (yes there is a difference). All I have read in this discussion is that you can counter vehicles, of course you can but what people are saying is that the disparity between countering vehicles and countering infantry is too big. As I mentioned previously, you can take on one LAV (if you're good or lucky), and that's it and you have to restock. As for squadding with other's: I do and we encounter similar problems just with a diminished effect. Personally I find that the reason people use LAV's is because the aiming controls are junk and it's easier to hit people with a car.
RINON114 B.S.A.A. General Tso's Alliance 209	Posted - 2013.06.08 09:56:00 - [3] - Quote Tharak Meuridiar wrote: RINON114 wrote: As I mentioned previously, you can take on one LAV (if you're good or lucky), and that's it and you have to restock. Only if you are relying in AV nades to fill you AV role. AV nades are... grenades... not a primary weapon. As such they have weaknesses compared to SLs and forge guns which are the primary weapons of the players who use them. Do you really think people should have access to assault rifles and AV as good as SL's and forges on the same dropsuit? Those are both good for multiple LAVs in the hands of semi accurate user. I mean really, a SL can take down most tanks if the user lives / maintains line of sight long enough to do it solo. A forgegun EASILY can. That's before speccing into increased ammo or equipping a nanohive. Thanks for glancing over the important part of the post, the one where I told you not to be so presumptuous. Manners cost nothing. As for your reply, it doesn't make sense. Yes I can spec into whatever I want but that's the catch, I have to spec into it. I shouldn't have to spec into anything to effectively take out militia LAV's. Taking out anything else on the other hand, is fine. Before you tell me that GÇ£You don't, it's called militia AVGÇ¥ - Militia LAV's take 3 packed AV grenades to kill, and at least two militia swarms (which means you can hardly fight infantry at all). I have no problem with your arguments against strong vehicles, if I want to take out GÇ£logilavsGÇ¥ then I should spec into better AV.
RINON114 B.S.A.A. General Tso's Alliance 209	Posted - 2013.06.09 01:50:00 - [4] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Tharak Meuridiar wrote: Let's break this down simply: Regular infantry = rock: Your regular infantry come with weapons such as ARs, shotguns, nova knives, MDs, anti-infantry grenades etc. that are great for killing other infantry, including AV infantry who are not very good at killing you back, but are utter crap vs. vehicles. Vehicles = paper: Vehicles can roam around the battlefield, either nearly immune to regular infantry weapons (tanks) or too agile for them to be effective unless you stand still (LAVs and Dropships). However Swarm launchers, AV grenades, forge guns, and other AV weapons are the bane of your existence. AV infantry = scissors: You sacrifice regular infantry weapons that are great for killing other infantry to be able to easily take on vehicles much more easily. By taking cover in places that are hard for vehicles to reach and shooting them with your heavy damage weapons you really make their life hell. But you tend to get stomped all over when you come up against the AR toting masses. The game has been so kind as to make it so ANYONE can play rock, paper, or scissors, by providing us with free AR and sniper suits, free AV suits, and the free LAV everyone keeps moaning about. Let's apply what we've learned: Your team is getting pushed to the red line by 3 tanks and 2 LAVs. What do you spawn? Reg inf, AV inf, or vehicles? If you're my team from earlier today, then apparently your answer is regular infantry! Congrats! You lost a game elementary schoolers are able to comprehend! The vehicle "problem" isn't an issue of balance. It's an issue of idiots playing rock every single time and wondering why the matches are starting to fill up with paper. I (and many in my corp) are thrilled when we see "paper" in match because most of the time it means extra points and a higher ISK payout. We all have some form of AV fit (even if it's free) and will happily respawn/depot swap into AV when needed. This week I played a few matches with my corp where we used free LAVs to blitz into the redline and take out hostile HAVs hiding behind cover there. Have I been run over in a LAV or shot by a HAV this week? Sure. But more often than not a fully loaded LAV means I get 3 kills and a bonus 40 WP for one nade toss, while a fully loaded HAV means I get 3 kills and a bonus 150 WP for the use of three nades. And for those who don't use/want to use AV nades? Climb up on something high with a militia forge or swarms and aim at the weak spot on vehicles, it works wonders. Oh and a closing note, I'm doing all of this without proto anything (including damage mods or tank) on my AV fits. Specifically I have level 3 in swarm launcher and level 1 in grenadier. If memory serves that's an SP total investment of less than one week (tho I use boosters so it may be a bit over 1 week for those without). 0.02 ISK Cross ps ~ the current alteration to LAV physics may still need looked at, the total lack of momentum loss when running hostiles down seems a bit off. I find that there most often is a lack of momentum when I hit people, especially heavies. I hit one yesterday and I pretty much barrelled off into the sunset. As for this whole debate, my issue is simply with AV's ineffectiveness vs militia LAV's (and maybe shield tanked logistics ones as flux grenades seem to do nothing). The other problem is probably not with LAV's at all, but when I am being stomped by prototypes using officer gear and superior skill, then call out an LAV that cost me nothing and start mowing them down then I think something is wrong. I wouldn't mind if my LAV cost some cash to call in, that could work.