DUST Search - Who asked for the sharpshooter nerf??

KalOfTheRathi wrote:

Here is a game designer viewpoint. Not a Dev mind you, just a software guy.

First, let's look at what SS did. It added 5% per level for all light weapons. When proficiency is included that means the basic number is 40% more distance. However, the way EVE and DUST, as far as I can tell, works is that each bonus is multiplied one right after the other. That means the actual range is 27.6% at lvl 5 SS and 48% for lvl 5 Proficiency.

Now, image what you are doing is designing a ten year game. At least first few years will be building up the basic functionality of the character. So you include the Sharp Shooter Skill to adjust ranged based on how much benefit vs SP the players are willing to spend.

To get the balance right just enable SS for Light Weapons, Heavy Weapons and Sidearms. The Beta testers will get the benefit of the entire range. But that is not how you would want the Skill to actually work in the Release.

Each specific Weapon needs SP to be spent on it. Why? Because that is how EVE works and it requires the Most SP to be spent. Which means the player needs to be connected to DUST for longer to get those benefits for multiple weapons. Each weapon has specifics that will need to be addressed. That is very consistent with splitting Vehicles vs Drop Suits Skills. Doing that requires More SP to used, which means more SP will need to be generated, which means more AUR for more Boosters. Life is good.

Now we are getting two things Real Soon Now. First is May 6th, Uprising. That is a major update to the game. May 14th is something else. More maps, guns and might even be called a Release. It doesn't really matter. What does matter is that it will no longer be called Beta and new players will expect a more complete game. However, they will not come into the game with the preconceived ideas from the Beta testers regarding certain Skills. Because they are all gone and everything is new.

We no longer are going to be used to find bugs, test how fast SP should be generated per day/week/whatever and we won't be having the special bonuses we got because we were here first. We will have the SP advantage but a lot of it will be mitigated as the Sharpshooter Skill is evidence of. I wouldn't be surprise if everything costs more SP in the long run. We get to wade through the New Skill Tree and find a new balance for our character. Skilling LW SS to lvl 5 will not increase the range for multiple weapons. We will have to make the decision regard Which Specific Weapon we want to improve. Just like the Newest of the New Berries.

It's a new game.

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The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 133	Posted - 2013.04.29 06:52:00 - [61] - Quote hooc roht wrote: Lavirac JR wrote: Everything is getting equally reduced basically, this means HP and defense are getting a buff... No. It is a lasers and snipers can now get right on top of you without fear of being shot buff. Not equal at all. You shouldn't be able to hit a laser or sniper at AR range.
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 133	Posted - 2013.04.29 06:54:00 - [62] - Quote Schalac 17 wrote: The nova knives are going to be the hardest hit by this nerf. They lost 3-5 inches off of their blades, that is the difference between penetrating a heavies armor or not. That's what she said
The Robot Devil BetaMax. CRONOS. 136	Posted - 2013.04.29 07:23:00 - [63] - Quote KalOfTheRathi wrote: Here is a game designer viewpoint. Not a Dev mind you, just a software guy. First, let's look at what SS did. It added 5% per level for all light weapons. When proficiency is included that means the basic number is 40% more distance. However, the way EVE and DUST, as far as I can tell, works is that each bonus is multiplied one right after the other. That means the actual range is 27.6% at lvl 5 SS and 48% for lvl 5 Proficiency. Now, image what you are doing is designing a ten year game. At least first few years will be building up the basic functionality of the character. So you include the Sharp Shooter Skill to adjust ranged based on how much benefit vs SP the players are willing to spend. To get the balance right just enable SS for Light Weapons, Heavy Weapons and Sidearms. The Beta testers will get the benefit of the entire range. But that is not how you would want the Skill to actually work in the Release. Each specific Weapon needs SP to be spent on it. Why? Because that is how EVE works and it requires the Most SP to be spent. Which means the player needs to be connected to DUST for longer to get those benefits for multiple weapons. Each weapon has specifics that will need to be addressed. That is very consistent with splitting Vehicles vs Drop Suits Skills. Doing that requires More SP to used, which means more SP will need to be generated, which means more AUR for more Boosters. Life is good. Now we are getting two things Real Soon Now. First is May 6th, Uprising. That is a major update to the game. May 14th is something else. More maps, guns and might even be called a Release. It doesn't really matter. What does matter is that it will no longer be called Beta and new players will expect a more complete game. However, they will not come into the game with the preconceived ideas from the Beta testers regarding certain Skills. Because they are all gone and everything is new. We no longer are going to be used to find bugs, test how fast SP should be generated per day/week/whatever and we won't be having the special bonuses we got because we were here first. We will have the SP advantage but a lot of it will be mitigated as the Sharpshooter Skill is evidence of. I wouldn't be surprise if everything costs more SP in the long run. We get to wade through the New Skill Tree and find a new balance for our character. Skilling LW SS to lvl 5 will not increase the range for multiple weapons. We will have to make the decision regard Which Specific Weapon we want to improve. Just like the Newest of the New Berries. It's a new game. Sweet zombie Jesus! Someone got it. I could say it but it is hard for me to type out. You should be given 10 M ISK and a proto bpo of your choice. Everyone who posts or reads the forum should be made to read this and take a test on it. Beta means not done. Not done means anything can change at anytime for any reason. We are beta testers and we test ideas, balance, mechanics and stability. Every build has been an upgrade from the last and a completely new game. What we have and know now will be useful but at the same time will not be how the game works. Lots of things have changed and most have been to the better. We need take a deep breath and think for a second. Relax. Weapons need to fit into the roles that they are intended to play, by this I mean a heavy should not be fighting much past the start to the medium range when using a hmg. There are more weapons still to be deployed and each has a range and damage that has fit into a role from the eyes of the merc and from lore. Let's let CCP drop the build, we test for a few weeks and give feedback in a positive way and with open minds. We should do our job then enjoy our game.
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1333	Posted - 2013.04.29 08:10:00 - [64] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: I don't understand why CCP is removing the range for the sharpshooter skill. They placed it in the game and I don't recall reading a lot of hate for the sharpshooter from the community. So, I don't understand why the devs would have placed it in the game.....and then remove it when there was no negative feedback about it. In fact, everyone I know loves the sharpshooter skill. And why the removal of the passive damage skill? I can't recall anyone having issues with these skills....so why are they being removed? If I am mistaken or misinformed, please let me know that as well I actually discussed that specific topic with Gavin Frankle at FanFest after the advancing the core presentation. The point here is to make weapons keep their very specialized field of expertise. People already mentionned shotguns having a way too long range but that goes for mostly every weapon. AR ended up with a mid-long range (120 max/55m optimal maxed out), actually pretty much the efficiency of a base laser rifle without any SS. Laser became very very long range weapons, same for HMGs and that were reaching even further than ARs etc... Without any Range skills, each weapon is kinda locked in its range area. Making having balance squads even more important than before. Also, it opens a vast array of racial weapon variants using the base range as a specific characteristic. => The Rail Rifle mentionned in the CCP presents keynote will probably be long range AR with less DPS output. Another advantage of the no range skill is that progressing through different weapon tier becomes more interesting as you get more and more range. Duvolle has 4 m more in optimal and that changes a lot. So overall, i'm pretty much liking this decision. But i think it may require some adjustments. Even though i played Uprising i cannot give you guys any of the new ranges and stuff as i didnt have enough time. I didnt even play that much actually. Anyway, optimal Range feels a little bit limited on some weapons. Max range is one thing but optimal is actually the thing that matters. So i think some weapons may need a slight buff on that part. Another important thing to know is that they are looking at changing the way damage falloff works. At the moment, it's pretty much I\O. Either the bullet hits you or it doesnt. A small step is enough to go from I to O. They'd like to smooth that part and same goes with the damage % reduction... Also, it would make sense to see some range modules down the line just like EVE has. Would actually give the possibility to trade Damage or Defense for Range. So there's some work planned there on the range matter. But overall i think it will make the game more interesting.
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1333	Posted - 2013.04.29 08:14:00 - [65] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Schalac 17 wrote: The nova knives are going to be the hardest hit by this nerf. They lost 3-5 inches off of their blades, that is the difference between penetrating a heavies armor or not. That's what she said Actually knives feel pretty good now
Aeon Amadi WarRavens 1214	Posted - 2013.04.29 08:14:00 - [66] - Quote Removal of Sharpshooter puts more emphasis on racial combat philosophy and forces you to specialize into something. Generalization is the death of any game, at the point a weapon like an assault rifle is better than another weapon which was designed for a specific purpose, such as the Laser Rifle, then there is a major power creep issue. If you want range, go Caldari - who specialize in long range engagements. Hence why they designed the Sniper Rifles and the soon-to-be-added Caldari Rail Rifles. But, with range comes a reduction in damage. There are always trade-offs. Until Uprising the Gallente Assault Rifle was King of All Trades and unnecessarily so as it's a Blaster, which in Eve Online has a notoriety for having the highest damage and lowest range. This is just the natural evolution of Dust 514 as it was meant to be.
Nelo Angel0 The Nommo Insurance Fraud. 30	Posted - 2013.04.29 08:19:00 - [67] - Quote reads titles Everyone who wasn't running assault. Seriously the skill was getting a bit beyond broken. Shotguns were effective in mid short range, ARs were basically more rapid snipers, HMGs were causing QQ, and the one weapon it truly broke the LRs had a seriously mean effective... no a better optimal range. *optimal range being not too far or too close to get the full DMG from the gun.
Jason Pearson Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 877	Posted - 2013.04.29 08:45:00 - [68] - Quote Sharpshooter broke the game.
Charlotte O'Dell Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 179	Posted - 2013.04.29 08:48:00 - [69] - Quote IRuby Heart wrote: Weapons in this game that absoulutely need to have our Current Sharpshooter brought back specifically for them~ - Forge Gun - Swarm launcher That is all. No. OP.
Wicked Glory Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 169	Posted - 2013.04.29 08:49:00 - [70] - Quote I asked for a sharpshooter nerf.

Jack McReady DUST University Ivy League 109	Posted - 2013.04.29 09:02:00 - [71] - Quote Nelo Angel0 wrote: Shotguns were effective in mid short range your assumption is WRONG. highest range shotguns have 9 meter optimal range. add both sharpshooter skills and you get the range up to 12meters... wow big difference. the real reason why shotguns can be used up to 20 meters and still deal damage is because they have 30 meter fall off range thus still deal about 50% damage at 20 meters.
MacGoogles iS-me-name ThatsHott 6	Posted - 2013.04.29 09:11:00 - [72] - Quote Wicked Glory wrote: I asked for a sharpshooter nerf. i Disagree with this "Sharpshooter Nerf"... My sniper would be ultimately useless.
Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 207	Posted - 2013.04.29 09:24:00 - [73] - Quote ...... sharpshooter broke the game? because it was a 40% increase? WHAT? Are you clowns serious? You think bullets actually being able to reach the other side of a street is OP? Wow. It just dawned on me. You are all seriously terrible players and are probably the rejects of every other FPS out there. rofl. Man I hope CCP doesn't actually give you guys that much sway or this game is screwed beyond words.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens 187	Posted - 2013.04.29 09:53:00 - [74] - Quote Not going into large turrets on this. Just the man portable stuff. Maybe Scrambler Pistols will have their maximum effective range set to 50 meters. Maybe SMGs will have their maximum effective range set to 70 meters. Maybe Shotguns will have their maximum effective range set to 55 meters with a 4 meter spread at max range. Maybe Mass Drivers will have their maximum effective range set to 160 meters with an indiscriminate 6 meter blast radius. Indiscriminate means anyone, friend, foe, and self caught in the blast takes damage. Maybe add a 14 meter minimum arming range. Maybe Assault Rifles will keep their current damage and will have their maximum effective range set to 600 meters. Maybe Laser Rifles will have their maximum range set to line of sight with it's maximum effective zone between 750 meters and 850 meters. Maybe HMGs will get their damage boosted 20% (Still less base per round damage than ARs) will have their maximum effective range set to 1000 meters with a 3 meter bullet spread at 1000 meters. Maybe the Sniper Rifle will have their maximum effective range set to 1500 meters. Maybe the Swarm Launcher will have their maximum effective range set to 4800 meters. Maybe the Forge Gun will have their maximum effective range set to 10000 meters. Yeah, this will never happen. Know why? Because it makes sense and we all know that most FPS gamers don't like it when weapon functionality in games makes sense.
Aeon Amadi WarRavens 1215	Posted - 2013.04.29 09:56:00 - [75] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Are you clowns serious? You think bullets actually being able to reach the other side of a street is OP? Wow. 1 Meter = 3.2 Feet Average Street = 11 Feet Wide 100 meters (Assault Rifle can fire beyond this with lethal results) = 320 feet. Try firing across 29 streets and that's generally what's going on.
ANON Illuminati A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S. 17	Posted - 2013.04.29 10:11:00 - [76] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: I don't understand why CCP is removing the range for the sharpshooter skill. They placed it in the game and I don't recall reading a lot of hate for the sharpshooter from the community. So, I don't understand why the devs would have placed it in the game.....and then remove it when there was no negative feedback about it. In fact, everyone I know loves the sharpshooter skill. And why the removal of the passive damage skill? I can't recall anyone having issues with these skills....so why are they being removed? If I am mistaken or misinformed, please let me know that as well to be honest i think its because of all the Nerfhammer threads. eventually it will come to the removal and or reduction of mods and skills. ive seen countless nerf complaints on the forums most recent is the assault rifle. now nerfing the assault rifle would completely make a shortage in the frontline men so take away the next best thing. sharp shooter and proficiency. it blows and i think ccp should stop listening to the pc and newbies on here complaining about everything or everyone they cant kill and just make the game the way they intended to make it. because alot of player base ideas are slowly messing up the game. im not saying its all the players fault but if your going to remove or nerf something nerf or remove it because it truely has an issue not because of someone not being able to kill someone.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 187	Posted - 2013.04.29 10:12:00 - [77] - Quote This looks like a done deal. Well, as done as a screenshot taken from a private server of game sharing the same universe... you get the idea.
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries 1101	Posted - 2013.04.29 11:26:00 - [78] - Quote Sharpshooter broke the game? Really?
revived angel One-Armed Bandits Atrocitas 1	Posted - 2013.04.29 11:34:00 - [79] - Quote crazy space 1 wrote: BETA Why did you never listen!!!??!?!?!??!??!?!?! They arne't listening to you, they are using us to test while they produce the game. They have been listening to us, but balance changes are not going to happen until the game is more fleshed out. Everything is up for change. Nothing is being nerfed or buffed. Dropsuits started at x2 skill, then went x16, then x8 and now are x6. No one had to ask about that they are building the game and letting us play it while it's unfinished. they are supposed to listen to us , maybe not base entire decision on our opinion , but rather have our opinion ''shape'' the out come of certain things .
Tony Calif Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2065	Posted - 2013.04.29 12:05:00 - [80] - Quote Sharpshooter is the skill is Op. let's face it, you wouldn't let someone out of boot camp without it at prof 3. Seriously, my buddy wouldn't play after being out ranged with the same gear, 3-4 times in a row. It was BS, and all experienced players know SS is 100% vital. So SS only made new players suffer. Removal of SS, and reworking the max ranges is a GREAT move.

Vrain Matari ZionTCD Unclaimed. 486	Posted - 2013.04.29 12:16:00 - [81] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: Sharpshooter broke the game? Really? It's sad that it comes to this. I loved what sharpshooter added to the game. Loved having to distract or flank Lasers. Loved getting surprised by the range on Icy Tiger's Ishukone smg. Didn't love getting my 900+ hp heavy one-shotted by shotguns, but that's a dispersion problem in my books. It removes a variable from the game and makes it simpler. Currently if you see a laser or AR looking at you and you need to cross open ground, a little testing is called for. Run out, check his tracers, check his damage, then make the sprint/flank decision. Without sharpshooter, once we get the ranges of the weapons dialed in, it becomes a trivial process of estimation. I'd like to see a better solution.
Himiko Kuronaga SyNergy Gaming EoN. 210	Posted - 2013.04.29 12:19:00 - [82] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Are you clowns serious? You think bullets actually being able to reach the other side of a street is OP? Wow. 1 Meter = 3.2 Feet Average Street = 11 Feet Wide 100 meters (Assault Rifle can fire beyond this with lethal results) = 320 feet. Try firing across 29 streets and that's generally what's going on. Edit: And before we get any bull**** arguments comparing it to real life examples of military assault rifles, please - for the love of god - remember a few points: This is a game, this rifle is shooting PLASMA, those rifles have recoil (something the Dust 514 assault rifle doesn't have at level 5 Operation) and when tested at those ranges they're generally not dishing out 12.5 rounds per second. Yea, except it isnt whats going on. The units of measurement in this game are beyond broken. An untrained HMG user cannot fire across the road in skid junction if he's sitting behind the cover. It's been tested. I don't care if the weapon is accurate or not, it's MY JOB to compensate for it being an innaccurate piece of trash. It's not CCP's job to go and say "yo dawg, we don't like you firing from here, so we taking yo bullets away". To hell with that. That is by far the laziest most BS way to balance an FPS.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 772	Posted - 2013.04.29 13:12:00 - [83] - Quote Without reading this entire thread... Sharpshooter had to go. Gave players the most obvious advantage that you could get with the old skill system. But never really made sense. "I am so good at shooting my bullets travel twice as far as yours do!" No. If they add anything like a range increase it should be for specific guns.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 772	Posted - 2013.04.29 13:15:00 - [84] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Ydubbs81 RND wrote: Sharpshooter broke the game? Really? It's sad that it comes to this. I loved what sharpshooter added to the game. Loved having to distract or flank Lasers. Loved getting surprised by the range on Icy Tiger's Ishukone smg. Didn't love getting my 900+ hp heavy one-shotted by shotguns, but that's a dispersion problem in my books. It removes a variable from the game and makes it simpler. Currently if you see a laser or AR looking at you and you need to cross open ground, a little testing is called for. Run out, check his tracers, check his damage, then make the sprint/flank decision. Without sharpshooter, once we get the ranges of the weapons dialed in, it becomes a trivial process of estimation. I'd like to see a better solution. Just make it weapon specific. Then it becomes more important to gather intel on your opponent. Figure out their load out.
GeneralButtNaked ZionTCD Unclaimed. 383	Posted - 2013.04.29 13:24:00 - [85] - Quote Weapon range should be fixed to the weapon. It is nonsense that a skill could somehow make your range increase. The bigger issue is if they have balanced the weapons correctly.
Wu-master Rebelles A Quebec Orion Empire 8	Posted - 2013.04.29 14:09:00 - [86] - Quote Ok so now if iam assault rifle where is my skills againts Heavy machine gun,sniper,laser,mass driver and The shotgun .Everything was good and balance now i just see another change for worst.I spend money in my style to play investe in my dropsuite and you want to change the rule .Man this game some time
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 105	Posted - 2013.04.29 14:10:00 - [87] - Quote Sharpshooter is a pretty silly mechanic anyway. Its a must have skill right now, so its pretty much a useless SP dump until everyone is on even footing, and then makes the game frustrating for newer players. In a competitive game (which hopefully dust is) you want the players to be on even-ish footing. Obviously SP and ISK and AUR break this mold, which is cool, but only if that advantages to the player are reasonable and/or easily communicated. I can tell what weapon someone is using when they fire, I can tell what their armor and shield is when I aim at them. These things allow me to know what the situation is and respond. Sharpshooter doesnt have those tells, and is far more "game breaking" than damage boost, or reduced kickback. Simply being unable to hit someone who can hit me due to range when we have the same gun does not make for a fun experience. And since everyone who plays regularly knows this, and pumps up sharpshooter, it becomes pointless.
Knarf Black Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 609	Posted - 2013.04.29 14:21:00 - [88] - Quote The fighting is more interesting at closer ranges, and maybe the game will closer resemble CCP's screenshots and trailers now. Sharpshooter was pushing us apart, man.
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 711	Posted - 2013.04.29 14:38:00 - [89] - Quote GeneralButtNaked wrote: Weapon range should be fixed to the weapon. It is nonsense that a skill could somehow make your range increase. The bigger issue is if they have balanced the weapons correctly. Using your logic no skill would increase CPU or pg, no skill to increase damage, and no skill to reduce a weapon's cpu and pg needs
Happy Violentime OMFGZOMBIESRUN 25	Posted - 2013.04.29 14:45:00 - [90] - Quote I can understand the removal of sharpshooter, having a skill that makes your gun shoot further is stupid - either your gun can shoot to a particular range or it can't. But having said that, all AR's need to have a base max range = to their current base + sharpshooter lvl 5 and sharpshooter prof lvl 5 - at the most this gives a max range on AR to 120m - think that's too far? Most AR's in current real-world usage have a range 500m + Also as I've mentioned before in feedback, all weapons need to have their ranges viewable on the info screen.



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