DUST Search - Claymores

Banjo Hero wrote:

Why do you guys think we need claymore mines? Aside from the whole "Front Toward Enemy" thing, the birdshot, and the range (IIRC, they're effective to something like maybe fifty meters) the claymore is pretty much the same thing as this game's RE: a command-detonated anti-personnel explosive. The first two points, directionality and the metal bearings, can be disregarded - unless I'm mistaken, friendlies can sit on the damn things when you set them off, and, the shot, added to the real-life weapon to make it deadly, isn't necessary, because, sci-fi video game. The range might conceivably be a little more desirable in a deployable weapon, but I don't think it's really something worth making a cause of.

"Kill every red dot within this circle 3- or 5- (or whatever it is) meters in diameter" versus "kill every red dot within this 50-meter-long and 20-meter-wide at the base triangle"? Using my admittedly pulled-out-of-my-ass numbers, that makes the RE's area of effect somewhere in the 20m^2 neighborhood, and the claymore's would be like 500m^2. Even if the RE's radius were ten meters, you're still talking only 314m^2. I think it would take about a half-hour from them being put in the game for the forum to be swamped with "OMFG CLAYMOERZ R TEH OP" threads.

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Sir Petersen Valhalla Nord 116	Posted - 2013.04.16 15:59:00 - [1] - Quote Ok.. I spoke about this before the open demo and now I-¦ll do it again. How about bringing the classic Claymore into the game? http://jlz.com/USMC/USMC/ClaymoreMine.jpg
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 84	Posted - 2013.04.16 16:02:00 - [2] - Quote I've been thinking about this alot lately too. Using Proximity Mines as AV Mines just doesn't seem right to me, they were Anti-Infantry mines in Goldeneye and that is the last time I remember seeing "Proximity Mines" in an FPS. I am not saying that we shouldn't have AV Mines too, just where are my Anti-Personnel Mines?
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 68	Posted - 2013.04.16 16:05:00 - [3] - Quote Nah prox mines arent fun. Nobody has ever been like "OH MAN THAT PROX MINE JUST KILLED ME THIS IS FUN! THE GUY WHO PUT IT THERE IS GOOD!" The only way they would be acceptable is if they showed up on radar, or were very, very obvious. Remote mines are bad enough, prox mines are just remote mines without any skill involved at all.
WyrmHero1945 IMPSwarm Negative-Feedback 111	Posted - 2013.04.16 16:08:00 - [4] - Quote Yay for claymores. Why not???
Zyrus Amalomyn Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 92	Posted - 2013.04.16 16:09:00 - [5] - Quote Bones McGavins wrote: Remote mines are bad enough, prox mines are just remote mines without any skill involved at all. So you want ti make this game COD with the casual attitude?
Sir Petersen Valhalla Nord 116	Posted - 2013.04.16 16:10:00 - [6] - Quote Bones McGavins wrote: Nah prox mines arent fun. Nobody has ever been like "OH MAN THAT PROX MINE JUST KILLED ME THIS IS FUN! THE GUY WHO PUT IT THERE IS GOOD!" The only way they would be acceptable is if they showed up on radar, or were very, very obvious. Remote mines are bad enough, prox mines are just remote mines without any skill involved at all. Nonsense. Using claymores takes just as much skill as anything else. They are effective for sure and people would have to look around before running/jumping ahead but this is good yes? Bringing in the claymores would be awesome if done right.
Sir Petersen Valhalla Nord 116	Posted - 2013.04.16 16:12:00 - [7] - Quote Zyrus Amalomyn wrote: Bones McGavins wrote: Remote mines are bad enough, prox mines are just remote mines without any skill involved at all. So you want ti make this game COD with the casual attitude? Is this your casual attitude on this forum kid? And why would you think that? We find the same weapons in both game-¦s already don-¦t we?
Panoscape BurgezzE.T.F Orion Empire 125	Posted - 2013.04.16 16:12:00 - [8] - Quote I'd like popper mines, like in Resistance. When they pop up you have a chance to shoot them before they kill you. I always hated my instant deaths from claymores in MAG... but liked using them, it was an easy kill.
Panoscape BurgezzE.T.F Orion Empire 125	Posted - 2013.04.16 16:12:00 - [9] - Quote kitten, double post.
Sir Petersen Valhalla Nord 116	Posted - 2013.04.16 16:15:00 - [10] - Quote Panoscape wrote: I'd like popper mines, like in Resistance. When they pop up you have a chance to shoot them before they kill you. I always hated my instant deaths from claymores in MAG... but liked using them, it was an easy kill. And difficult is good? With claymores people need to think more rather than running around like headless chickens?

Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 68	Posted - 2013.04.16 16:23:00 - [11] - Quote claymores encourage camping. Camping is lame and not fun. COD has claymores and you can just secure a nifty sniper spot and use claymores to watch your make. Even if someone kills the claymore it still warns you of their approach, fun... Difficult IS good. Easy kills are lame. Claymores dont require skills to use. They rely on the other player making a mistake and not on you doing well. That type of gameplay is bad. Its not fun to be killed by a claymore/prox mine, and its not rewarding to get such a cheap kill. This game already encourages camping a ton. We dont need more.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2517	Posted - 2013.04.16 16:27:00 - [12] - Quote A few possible ways to make anti-personnel mines that work: 1. As suggested already in this thread, have "pop-up" mines that can be shot to disable them before the primary detonation. 2. Make the mine trigger when you step OFF, rather than when you step ONTO it. And make it possible for them to be defused by someone who isn't standing on them (defuse time determined by hack speed). Come up with some lore-based explanation why trying to hack the mine you're standing on will cause it to detonate anyway. There should preferably be an audio cue when you activate one of these mines, so you know not to move. 3. Make it a very tightly-contained explosion with either a tiny splash radius or minimal damage to anyone but the one who detonated the mine.
Soldier of Mawat Amat Al'Mawat Militia 40	Posted - 2013.04.16 16:28:00 - [13] - Quote I really hate claymores in games because of the "no skill/ set and forget" aspect but just because I hate them doesn't mean it shouldn't be in the game. Claymores can be very helpful in providing a line of defense from flanking attacks or just a way to thin the lines of attacking enemies. Claymores can be balanced easily because they are easily spotted if you are actively looking for them, and there could be skills that can delay the triggering of the explosion.
Justin Tymes Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 22	Posted - 2013.04.16 16:37:00 - [14] - Quote Bones McGavins wrote: Nah prox mines arent fun. Nobody has ever been like "OH MAN THAT PROX MINE JUST KILLED ME THIS IS FUN! THE GUY WHO PUT IT THERE IS GOOD!" The only way they would be acceptable is if they showed up on radar, or were very, very obvious. Remote mines are bad enough, prox mines are just remote mines without any skill involved at all. Lol at complaining about Remotes, it's called keep your eyes on the floor. Know the risk of climbing up a ladder before you do so. Lol at complaining about Proxy Mines, when they let out a noise when you're near(tankers get a damn handicap), so the only way you will catch a competent tanker with it is by making that tanker retreat to the mine regardless of the noise. And if you manage to do that, you were winning against that tank anyway.
Sir Petersen Valhalla Nord 116	Posted - 2013.04.16 16:37:00 - [15] - Quote Easy kill? no skill? Kind of reminds me of when I run around with my shotgun :) But seriously.. Good valid points mentioned here before. Still think the claymore could add value to the game if done correctly.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 68	Posted - 2013.04.16 16:42:00 - [16] - Quote There wasnt really a complaint about remotes in there. They are fine. Getting killed by one is annoying, but they are relatively fun and require some skill. My point is, prox mines are just remote mines without skill. And this discussion is about anti infantry prox mines, not anti tank. I dont think anyone really cares about anti tank prox mines because they are relatively useless. (mainly good for keeping lavs out of bases). Prox mines/claymores could have a role, but they would need to be more obvious than remote mines and/or provide means to escape. A delay explosion with a trigger sound, allowing you to find and shoot the mine would be perfect.
Sir Petersen Valhalla Nord 116	Posted - 2013.04.16 16:43:00 - [17] - Quote Also. It-¦s off target to talk about the claymore being easy to use when at the same time it can be tricky/difficult to deal with. And this goes both ways you see when one team plays against another. Those of you who have played against me know I move fast droplinking all over the place in my scoutsuit. Claymores would slow me down 4 sure but would at the same time secure my captured points. Nothing wrong with that.
Soldier of Mawat Amat Al'Mawat Militia 41	Posted - 2013.04.16 16:44:00 - [18] - Quote Sir Petersen wrote: Easy kill? no skill? Kind of reminds me of when I run around with my shotgun :) But seriously.. Good valid points mentioned here before. Still think the claymore could add value to the game if done correctly. Whoever says shotguns are easy kills and require no skill has obviously never realized what kind of situational awareness and map knowledge they require. The best place for a shotgunner to be shooting somebody is in the back and that doesn't happen by just charging straight at somebody.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 68	Posted - 2013.04.16 16:47:00 - [19] - Quote Yes, both sides get it, but the problem is: It encourages a type of gameplay I find to be boring and rewards camping and less agressive play and punishes agressive play and folks who actually drive the fight forward. Anything that encourages camping and discourages aggression needs to be thought about carefully, otherwise you make the game slower and usually less fun. Sniper fests are boring, dynamic skirmishes with both sides attacking and flanking are fun. prox mines empowers the former and handicaps the latter.
Sir Petersen Valhalla Nord 116	Posted - 2013.04.16 16:49:00 - [20] - Quote Soldier of Mawat wrote: Sir Petersen wrote: Easy kill? no skill? Kind of reminds me of when I run around with my shotgun :) But seriously.. Good valid points mentioned here before. Still think the claymore could add value to the game if done correctly. Whoever says shotguns are easy kills and require no skill has obviously never realized what kind of situational awareness and map knowledge they require. The best place for a shotgunner to be shooting somebody is in the back and that doesn't happen by just charging straight at somebody. What I am saying is that this is different between people. What comes easy to some might be more difficult for others. Most people can see this. Using the Shotgun has always bin pretty easy for me. Running around in a Scoutsuit with without any shields or armor for 6 months might have something to do with that. I recommend doing this 2 improve your skills.

Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. 84	Posted - 2013.04.16 16:49:00 - [21] - Quote Soldier of Mawat wrote: Sir Petersen wrote: Easy kill? no skill? Kind of reminds me of when I run around with my shotgun :) But seriously.. Good valid points mentioned here before. Still think the claymore could add value to the game if done correctly. Whoever says shotguns are easy kills and require no skill has obviously never realized what kind of situational awareness and map knowledge they require. The best place for a shotgunner to be shooting somebody is in the back and that doesn't happen by just charging straight at somebody. Why then do I see them charging me a lot? Not to mention the fact that the range on those damn things seems ridiculous, scout comes charging at me spamming his shotgun and I go down even though I've been dumping my SMG into his chest? How's that work?
Chris F2112 187. 43	Posted - 2013.04.16 16:49:00 - [22] - Quote How about mines that are more like a warning signal than an actual kill device? For example, a sniper could use a proximity mine in an entrance near him so it would act as a warning. The player who triggered the mine might only take 100 damage or so, but at least the sniper has a warning. Also, crouching past the mines should not set them off. If you are trying to be super stealthy, make that the way to get past them. If you really wanted to go overboard, there could even be a skill for hacking them/ disarming them. Great for enemy nanohives as well.
Justin Tymes Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2013.04.16 16:53:00 - [23] - Quote Bones McGavins wrote: Yes, both sides get it, but the problem is: It encourages a type of gameplay I find to be boring and rewards camping and less agressive play and punishes agressive play and folks who actually drive the fight forward. Anything that encourages camping and discourages aggression needs to be thought about carefully, otherwise you make the game slower and usually less fun. Sniper fests are boring, dynamic skirmishes with both sides attacking and flanking are fun. prox mines empowers the former and handicaps the latter. What wrong with defensive playing? You shouldn't be able to swarm without risk. And I'm sure Flux nades will take care of them.
Sir Petersen Valhalla Nord 116	Posted - 2013.04.16 16:53:00 - [24] - Quote Some of you about claymores=camping. Are you gonna start to camp if we get claymores? Not me.. Campers will always camp. With or without them and a couple of claymore won-¦t stop me from hunting them down if I need to. So what is the problem? :/
Banjo Hero BurgezzE.T.F Orion Empire 93	Posted - 2013.04.16 16:59:00 - [25] - Quote Why do you guys think we need claymore mines? Aside from the whole "Front Toward Enemy" thing, the birdshot, and the range (IIRC, they're effective to something like maybe fifty meters) the claymore is pretty much the same thing as this game's RE: a command-detonated anti-personnel explosive. The first two points, directionality and the metal bearings, can be disregarded - unless I'm mistaken, friendlies can sit on the damn things when you set them off, and, the shot, added to the real-life weapon to make it deadly, isn't necessary, because, sci-fi video game. The range might conceivably be a little more desirable in a deployable weapon, but I don't think it's really something worth making a cause of. "Kill every red dot within this circle 3- or 5- (or whatever it is) meters in diameter" versus "kill every red dot within this 50-meter-long and 20-meter-wide at the base triangle"? Using my admittedly pulled-out-of-my-ass numbers, that makes the RE's area of effect somewhere in the 20m^2 neighborhood, and the claymore's would be like 500m^2. Even if the RE's radius were ten meters, you're still talking only 314m^2. I think it would take about a half-hour from them being put in the game for the forum to be swamped with "OMFG CLAYMOERZ R TEH OP" threads.
Banjo Hero BurgezzE.T.F Orion Empire 93	Posted - 2013.04.16 17:04:00 - [26] - Quote Bones McGavins wrote: ... this discussion is about anti infantry prox mines ... I saw this after posting the thing I just posted, and now I'm confused... Um, anti-personnel proximity mines? I thought it was about claymores?
Sir Petersen Valhalla Nord 116	Posted - 2013.04.16 17:06:00 - [27] - Quote Banjo Hero wrote: Why do you guys think we need claymore mines? Aside from the whole "Front Toward Enemy" thing, the birdshot, and the range (IIRC, they're effective to something like maybe fifty meters) the claymore is pretty much the same thing as this game's RE: a command-detonated anti-personnel explosive. The first two points, directionality and the metal bearings, can be disregarded - unless I'm mistaken, friendlies can sit on the damn things when you set them off, and, the shot, added to the real-life weapon to make it deadly, isn't necessary, because, sci-fi video game. The range might conceivably be a little more desirable in a deployable weapon, but I don't think it's really something worth making a cause of. "Kill every red dot within this circle 3- or 5- (or whatever it is) meters in diameter" versus "kill every red dot within this 50-meter-long and 20-meter-wide at the base triangle"? Using my admittedly pulled-out-of-my-ass numbers, that makes the RE's area of effect somewhere in the 20m^2 neighborhood, and the claymore's would be like 500m^2. Even if the RE's radius were ten meters, you're still talking only 314m^2. I think it would take about a half-hour from them being put in the game for the forum to be swamped with "OMFG CLAYMOERZ R TEH OP" threads. Has there been a thread on this forum without a "OMFG CLAYMOERZ R TEH OP" discussion on any weapon in this game? :)
Banjo Hero BurgezzE.T.F Orion Empire 93	Posted - 2013.04.16 17:08:00 - [28] - Quote Sir Petersen wrote: Banjo Hero wrote: A bunch of crap. Has there been a thread on this forum without a "OMFG CLAYMOERZ R TEH OP" discussion on any weapon in this game? :) Oh, my, no! Not yet, at any rate. :D
Soldier of Mawat Amat Al'Mawat Militia 41	Posted - 2013.04.16 17:09:00 - [29] - Quote Quote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: Soldier of Mawat wrote: [quote=Sir Petersen]Easy kill? no skill? Kind of reminds me of when I run around with my shotgun :) But seriously.. Good valid points mentioned here before. Still think the claymore could add value to the game if done correctly. Whoever says shotguns are easy kills and require no skill has obviously never realized what kind of situational awareness and map knowledge they require. The best place for a shotgunner to be shooting somebody is in the back and that doesn't happen by just charging straight at somebody. Why then do I see them charging me a lot? Not to mention the fact that the range on those damn things seems ridiculous, scout comes charging at me spamming his shotgun and I go down even though I've been dumping my SMG into his chest? How's that work? I'll agree that the range on shotguns is pretty far, but it might be because we are so used to shotguns having fairly insignificant ranges in other shooters. Regarding the shotgunners who charge right at you, well some shotgunners play a little bit smarter than others.
Bones McGavins TacoCat Industries 74	Posted - 2013.04.16 17:11:00 - [30] - Quote Both. Someone else mentioned anti personal proximity mines. Aside from the effective area of the device, for gameplay mechanics they are pretty much identical. And maybe I would camp more with them in place. Also, the game, as it currently stands, does not have a lot of good mechanics for flushing the enemy out of a well defended area (see roof tops or some buildings, or hell whatever that map is with 2 NULL cannons outside a walled base and 3 inside. Imagine claymores there reducing the enemy ability to enter...). Making it even harder to attack a well defended location and easier to defend would not be a good thing for this game. There are already tons of times where a match is decided early on as one side takes an advantageous position, especially in ambush.



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