DUST Search - Corporation Tax

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:

Corporations are more like states instead of actual corporations. Corporations don't pay their members for their work, but now it seems like the employees will have to pay the corporation. The corp will benefit from its members without being obligated to give anything back in return. If members are to have an obligation to their corp, their corp needs to have an obligation to the members.

1.
It is not right to force obligation on members to their cop without giving the corp some sort of obligation to its members in return. I really understand how a tax is necessary for funding planetary conquest, but regular corp members need something in return. What do regular members get out of planetary conquest anyway?

2.
If you decide to add tax, then yes.

3.
NO

Its better for players to want to join a corporation because its a good group of mercs that they enjoy playing with. Players shouldn't be forced into joining corps just to escape a tax. Players need a positive about player corps to motivate them to join, not a "if you don't join one, your money will be stolen".

I would support if players have to option of not being in any corp at all. Players should have a choice on if they want to belong in something that drains their money, and currently there is no option to be a free agent (no NPC or player corp). No one asked to be part of their NPC corp.

This will confuse and anger players (and possibly reviewers), people will flood to the forum complaining that there is some bug that makes their ISK disappear because I'm certain you guys won't make it clear to them in the UI how it works (you didn't explain in the UI for when players hit the SP cap and people came to the forums complaining about the SP gains). Even if the UI did explain it, I doubt you're going to tell them "maybe if you join a player-corporation the tax might be lower".

Seriously consider the first point about rewards to members, and obligation of a corp to its members.

EDIT: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=67811&find=unread I discuss ways to make the corporation/member relationship mutualistic, and incentivize corp membership.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Bucktooth Badger Buck's Intergalactic Pawn Shop 67	Posted - 2013.04.07 12:22:00 - [91] - Quote Yes to everything - same reasons as everyone else who has said yes Also for NPC corps - 15%, to get people used to paying tax, but also that they get something out of it as well. Free militia kit each month? ISK bonus? NPC corp battles? Also, it would be good for the CEO of a corp to see information on who is paying what etc. If a corp is planning some sort of profit sharing scheme (like me) then it would be good to see who is active & deserves it. Rather than a character just sitting there earning nothing for the corp but taking an equ slice of the pie.
Guilbert 515 United Pwnage Service RISE of LEGION 1	Posted - 2013.04.07 12:27:00 - [92] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: US PWWN wrote: slypie11 wrote: i'd say make it a tax on income, if anything. I don't play very often, so I don't have a lot of money, and anything I make goes into restocking lost fits. What would happen if I did't have any more money left. Would taxes be taken out of my account while I was offline. I would have no time to remake the money until the weekend. So personally, i'm against mandatory taxing. If they taxed it like they taxed EVE it would be a income tax. Example 1 - So if you go offline with 2,325,123,671 ISK in your account there would be 2,325,123,671 ISK in your account when you log back in (no matter how long you were gone). Example 2 - If you played a Pub match and made 271,350 ISK in reward, while your corp had a 10% tax rate, then 27,135 ISK would be deposited in your corps wallet and 244,215 ISK would be deposited in your personal wallet. Yes this is how it would work. 1) yes 2) CEO 3) 10-15
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 881	Posted - 2013.04.07 18:13:00 - [93] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: There has been a bit of discussion about corporation taxes after our dev blog update to Planetary Conquest so I wanted to start a thread specifically on that. 1. Are you in favour of having a corporation tax system, allowing directors to specify a % percentage of all income earned by mercenaries to be taxed and delivered to the corporation wallet? 2. Should this be the same tax value that is used in EVE for mixed corporations? 3. Should we set tax on NPC corporations as well to encourage players to find player corporations that may have a cheaper tax rate? What would the default tax rate be? Cheers- 1. Yes, further the tax should be customizable to any % from 0 to 100 and should be linked to battle types so that Corps don't have to use one blanket rate for Instant Battles, PC, FW et al (it should be based purely on ISK not salvage, in case that's at all in question). 2. Yes. 3. Yes, as to how much based on what I've heard from various Corps 15% would put most player Corps at a lower tax bracket than the NPC Corps. 0.02 ISK Cross
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 881	Posted - 2013.04.07 18:31:00 - [94] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Corporations are more like states instead of actual corporations. Corporations don't pay their members for their work, but now it seems like the employees will have to pay the corporation. The corp will benefit from its members without being obligated to give anything back in return. If members are to have an obligation to their corp, their corp needs to have an obligation to the members. 1. It is not right to force obligation on members to their cop without giving the corp some sort of obligation to its members in return. I really understand how a tax is necessary for funding planetary conquest, but regular corp members need something in return. What do regular members get out of planetary conquest anyway? 2. If you decide to add tax, then yes. 3. NO Its better for players to want to join a corporation because its a good group of mercs that they enjoy playing with. Players shouldn't be forced into joining corps just to escape a tax. Players need a positive about player corps to motivate them to join, not a "if you don't join one, your money will be stolen". I would support if players have to option of not being in any corp at all. Players should have a choice on if they want to belong in something that drains their money, and currently there is no option to be a free agent (no NPC or player corp). No one asked to be part of their NPC corp. This will confuse and anger players (and possibly reviewers), people will flood to the forum complaining that there is some bug that makes their ISK disappear because I'm certain you guys won't make it clear to them in the UI how it works (you didn't explain in the UI for when players hit the SP cap and people came to the forums complaining about the SP gains). Even if the UI did explain it, I doubt you're going to tell them "maybe if you join a player-corporation the tax might be lower". Seriously consider the first point about rewards to members, and obligation of a corp to its members. EDIT: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=67811&find=unread I discuss ways to make the corporation/member relationship mutualistic, and incentivize corp membership. A few quick responses 1. I agree in principal but that's an internal corp matter, which Corps provide the proper balance between tax rates and benefits returned to members will define the ascendency or collapse of many Corps out there. This allows for more internal culture and player choice, being in a Corp now becomes more mechanically meaningful than having an extra "lfs" lobby to chat in (some Corps already do more than this of course but their efforts are hampered by the lack of tools within the game to enact more sophisticated policies). In short if your Corp isn't giving you a worthwhile return on the tax rate it's imposing then find/create a new corp and do it better 2. no further comment here 3. Players hanging out in NPC corps shouldn't get an inherent advantage (lower tax rate) this will discourage forming corps in the first place (especially with the current dearth of management tools in game). Further not having some motive mechanical to move into a player corp leads to issues such as there are in EVE where players use NPC corp membership to game the system doing things like running protection rackets in high sec without fear of a war dec because they're in an NPC corp (as one example). It also brakes immersion to have NPC corps (the largest in game corps lore wise) be tax free while other corps are not. There is an option for "no corp" just start your own corp and for a (rather low) one time fee and a single rank in one skill you can be tax free forever. What's more if you have a lot of friends who want to be tax free they can join your new tax free corp with no additional ISK fee being incurred. This could even be a way to meet new players and gain squad mates you otherwise wouldn't have, but even if it doesn't form any new social bonds it's still an opt out method already in game which costs less than a Proto fit. I fully agree that the UI must clearly report to the player both the % and the raw amount of ISK being taxed on a per battle basis. Further the in game tutorials should cover this subject clearly and explicitly, including a statement that player corps often have lower tax rates. Furthermore the corp tax rate for all player and NPC corps should be clearly displayed on the main corp info page and the tax rates of any corp you are in (NPC or Player) should be listed on your character sheet. Cheers, Cross
charlesnette dalari Creative Killers 176	Posted - 2013.04.07 18:39:00 - [95] - Quote I am a CEO 1 yes 2 no should be configured seperately since economies not yet balanced 3 yes same as eve We also desperately need better tools for paying our mercs employees and the ability to override the tax rates on an individual basis. Most importantly wee need transactional info for the wallet as well to include how much in taxes, donations and outgoing payments to individuals have been made with the corp wallet.
Hecarim Van Hohen The Tritan Industries 17	Posted - 2013.04.07 18:47:00 - [96] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: There has been a bit of discussion about corporation taxes after our dev blog update to Planetary Conquest so I wanted to start a thread specifically on that. 1. Are you in favour of having a corporation tax system, allowing directors to specify a % percentage of all income earned by mercenaries to be taxed and delivered to the corporation wallet? 2. Should this be the same tax value that is used in EVE for mixed corporations? 3. Should we set tax on NPC corporations as well to encourage players to find player corporations that may have a cheaper tax rate? What would the default tax rate be? Cheers- 1. Yes. 2. Yes. 3. Follow NPC corporation taxes from EVE (tax-rate at 11%)
Michael221987 Lost-Legion Orion Empire 6	Posted - 2013.04.07 18:52:00 - [97] - Quote If Corps are going to have to pay for the MCC's that get blown up and pay for planetary bases and stations then the corps are going to have to have a tax in order to have money to do stuff everyone is greedy with there money so having an auto tax set by the CEO and directors with a set percentage taken out of every battle is a good idea in eve right the CEO and directors and myself have agreed to be taxed 20% of anything over either 100,000 ISK or 200,000 ISK can't remember which one, and so far its workinga I think we should apply this method on DUST514 as well. I would like to have it to where this taxing would apply for both dust and eve but make it some how far since there are loop holes in what I just said or the eve side. Are we going to have one wallet for both eve and dust and are you going to combine both of the wallets? As for the NPC I wouldn't tax them cause most of them are Newbies and majority of them start in NPC's to get the hang of things and then they jump in corps once they find out why they should be in one.
DreadPirate Robertson Pirate Bay Tax Haven 0	Posted - 2013.04.07 19:55:00 - [98] - Quote Michael221987 mentioned being taxed on amounts exceeding either 100k or 200k Isk. If it were possible to set a personal allowance below which you are not taxed would be a very useful tool. As a new character, cloned today, I spent almost all of it dying a lot, and my earning fell between 110k and 200k per game with as many as 7 deaths. As such I need as much financial support as possible if I am to afford better than militia equipment.
Schalac 17 D3LTA FORC3 Orion Empire 11	Posted - 2013.04.07 20:18:00 - [99] - Quote I say leave tax out of DUST.
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 199	Posted - 2013.04.07 21:13:00 - [100] - Quote Why do so many people want the EVE tax to be the same as the dust tax, and not let CEOs decide? IMO CCP should wait until ISK can be transferred between EVE and DUST before they make the tax the same. If they do not, I'm going to bet that a few corps will split up into DUST side and EVE side corps. That way CEOs can manage the DUST side and the EVE side separately. Forcing CEOs to make the same choice for both sides on tax does not make EVE and DUST closer. Let's say a corporation's DUST wallet needs more $, and the CEO wants to raise the tax to raise money for the DUST side of things. He wants a 25% tax, and the EVE normal rate is 10%. Now the CEO is forced to make the EVE players pay 25% too. Same thing for DUST. EVE side might need $, but the DUST side might be fine. Now DUST mercs have to pay more, even though the corp does not need or want the $. Plus, from my understanding, EVE players can trade items and money and need **** crafted. If DUST gets stuff like that, I'd be happier about it. I have a bunch of stuff I can donate/trade with other players, so if corporations can use the tax to get those (officer) tier gear that cannot be purchased on the market, there would be additional benefits to a tax.

Thrillhouse Van Houten DIOS EX. 57	Posted - 2013.04.07 21:57:00 - [101] - Quote Taxes aren't fixed in Eve. A CEO sets the Corps tax rate and the members pay into the Corp wallet out of the money they make. Nothing would force ANY CEO to adjust his tax rate the same in Eve as in Dust, to my understanding (I play both). The option to do so would be there, though, and bloody well should be. @ DreadPirate Robertson: The taxes would come out of your earnings at a percentage rate, not a static number. No CEO will be able to tax you "200k ISK per match" but rather "21% of income." So if you earn 200k ISK in a match, you will give 42k ISK to your Corp in taxes. If your tax rate is 2%, you'd give 4k ISK. If it was 80%, you'd be giving 160k ISK. The tax rate is up to your CEO...the choice to join the Corp with any given tax rate is up to you. People act like picking and staying in a Corp is a life-altering decision. It isn't. If you feel your tax dollars are being spent unwisely or unfairly...you can leave your current Corp in lieu of another one. Corp tax rates hardly restrict your freedom as you have unlimited freedom of choice (assuming your own standards aren't too stringent). Again, newbies receive basically free everything at the outset. Taking 11% out of the money they earn for free will introduce them to the likely scenario of being realistically taxed by any PC they join. A Corp that sets its tax rate too high will lose members or not attract new members or both. A Corp that sets its tax rate too low will likely have members flocking to it, but may not be able to fund its conquests. A newbie gaining 200k ISK per match versus 178k ISK per match is, in practice, insignificant. A person could go through dozens of games before even realizing that they are being taxed (if nothing says you are...but it should say you are). For a guy using free suits, the numbers are easy come, easy go. They aren't spending any money anyways. Starter fits should be unlimited, but there is no reason they need to be entirely "free" in the sense that you get as many free fits as you want as long as you pay your NPC taxes. Fair enough.
A'Real Fury D.A.R.K L.E.G.I.O.N 34	Posted - 2013.04.07 22:17:00 - [102] - Quote @Thrillhouse Van Houten. I think DreadPirate Robertson was trying to say is that it would be useful if it were possible for a Corp to be able to set a Personal Allowance level before any tax is deducted for example the corp sets the personal allowance at 150k Isk per battle. So the player earns 200k Isk for that battle and the tax rate is 10%. The first 150k is not taxable as this is the personal allowance set by the corp. Of the remaining 50k Isk (200 - 150) it is taxed at the 10% rate i.e the corp receives 5000 Isk from that player. I view it as the Mercs are independent contractors, not employees, and are entitled to tax deductions and in the UK a Personal Allowance. I do not know what tax structures exist elsewhere but I assume most people are able to claim some form of tax deduction.
KatanaPT Tech Guard 29	Posted - 2013.04.08 00:14:00 - [103] - Quote 1, Yes 2, Yes 3, Yes
SAU xD Grupo de Asalto Chacal CRONOS. 0	Posted - 2013.04.08 00:30:00 - [104] - Quote Yes to all
tastzlike chicken ROGUE SPADES 65	Posted - 2013.04.08 02:29:00 - [105] - Quote 1. Yes 2. Yes 3. 10%- 15%
Mark Crusader Much Crying Old Experts 9	Posted - 2013.04.08 02:53:00 - [106] - Quote This could be implemented with a server-side change only. Just copy the corp tax-rate from how it is set in Eve. Until the client receives the UI control, a Dust corp would have to have an Eve character set as a director.
Tim Rapp Tank Bros. 0	Posted - 2013.04.08 03:26:00 - [107] - Quote Mark Crusader wrote: This could be implemented with a server-side change only. Just copy the corp tax-rate from how it is set in Eve. Until the client receives the UI control, a Dust corp would have to have an Eve character set as a director. I don't like the idea of forcing the Ceo of a Corp to have a eve character as director. I like all 3 of the original ideas from the dev
BatKing Deltor Tank Bros. 1	Posted - 2013.04.08 03:42:00 - [108] - Quote 1.yes 2.yes 3.yes
falcon7478 Grupo de Asalto Chacal CRONOS. 8	Posted - 2013.04.08 08:08:00 - [109] - Quote 1. Yes 2. Yes 3. Yes. 15-20%
Flyingconejo KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 97	Posted - 2013.04.08 10:43:00 - [110] - Quote 1. yes 2. yes. 3. yes.

Daedric Lothar Onslaught Inc 123	Posted - 2013.04.08 11:23:00 - [111] - Quote This thread is funny, its all yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,. You have my 3 yes as well. 1. Yes 2. Yes 3. Yes Though I would like to see a balancing feature, corps need money to operate, but they also need people to defend and attack objectives, I'd like to see options for suit/weapon replacement put in where a corp can issue back gear easily when mercs lose them. OR, during a corp event the corp can place fittings that a merc can choose and use corp gear rather then personal gear. The taxes would b from player to corp, but I feel it needs the above to complete the circuit and allow corps and players to interact better.
Vaerana Myshtana Bojo's School of the Trades 652	Posted - 2013.04.08 14:03:00 - [112] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: There has been a bit of discussion about corporation taxes after our dev blog update to Planetary Conquest so I wanted to start a thread specifically on that. 1. Are you in favour of having a corporation tax system, allowing directors to specify a % percentage of all income earned by mercenaries to be taxed and delivered to the corporation wallet? 2. Should this be the same tax value that is used in EVE for mixed corporations? 3. Should we set tax on NPC corporations as well to encourage players to find player corporations that may have a cheaper tax rate? What would the default tax rate be? Cheers- 1. Yes, sorta- I would confine it to the same kinds of income that EVE does. I don't think that people should be taxed by their corp on stuff that they sell (market please!) as that can represent double taxation. If I already paid taxes on the money I used to buy a bunch of Type-II Scouts and then I decide I don't like them and want to sell off the rest, I shouldn't get taxed by my corp on that. 2. Yes. I think that's the easiest way to go. 3. Yes. Same as EVE. Also, it is vitally important that corp managers have a detailed wallet (like EVE) and that corps be able to buy and distribute equipment. That and player-based trading and selling.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2404	Posted - 2013.04.08 14:06:00 - [113] - Quote 1. Definitely. In fact, I'd prefer more options than just "X% of income" - Corps should be able to set tax in such a way that it encourages members to play regularly. If someone wants a highly-active Corp, they could set a fixed-rate periodic tax on members instead of (or possibly as well as) a % of your income. That way, if you're more active, the tax hurts less. Also, we could do with a "tax exempt" option for certain players - or at least certain roles. 2. As a default, yes. But I think it should be possible to tax both groups at different rates if the Corp chooses to do so. 3. I'd say yes, but it depends what you want to do with this. You don't want to force new players to create a wave of startup Corps that will never go anywhere, and setting the tax bar too high will make everyone start by creating their own Corp just to avoid being taxed. You also don't want to drop all the way down to 0 if the aim is to encourage players to move out of NPC Corps. I'd say probably 10% is a good level, some player Corps will use that as a "baseline" level, some will push for more on the grounds that "we're better Corpmates" and some will ask less to give people more incentive to join.
ChromeBreaker SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 354	Posted - 2013.04.08 14:31:00 - [114] - Quote 1) Yes 2) Yes 3) Yes
Kevall Longstride DUST University Ivy League 160	Posted - 2013.04.08 15:56:00 - [115] - Quote Bucktooth Badger wrote: Yes to everything - same reasons as everyone else who has said yes Also for NPC corps - 15%, to get people used to paying tax, but also that they get something out of it as well. Free militia kit each month? ISK bonus? NPC corp battles? Also, it would be good for the CEO of a corp to see information on who is paying what etc. If a corp is planning some sort of profit sharing scheme (like me) then it would be good to see who is active & deserves it. Rather than a character just sitting there earning nothing for the corp but taking an equ slice of the pie. +1
Ronan Elsword Dead Six Initiative 14	Posted - 2013.04.08 16:14:00 - [116] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: There has been a bit of discussion about corporation taxes after our dev blog update to Planetary Conquest so I wanted to start a thread specifically on that. 1. Are you in favour of having a corporation tax system, allowing directors to specify a % percentage of all income earned by mercenaries to be taxed and delivered to the corporation wallet? 2. Should this be the same tax value that is used in EVE for mixed corporations? 3. Should we set tax on NPC corporations as well to encourage players to find player corporations that may have a cheaper tax rate? What would the default tax rate be? Cheers- 1. Yes 2. No, allow settings for both. 3. Yes, allow people to not be in a corp.
KEROSIINI-TERO Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 286	Posted - 2013.04.08 16:39:00 - [117] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: [poll] 1) Yes, definately 2) No, again definately as income models are so different. Should be easy to do. 3) Yes. Not absolutely necessary but ok thing. 5% might do the trick.
Chinduko KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 26	Posted - 2013.04.08 16:45:00 - [118] - Quote CCP Nullarbor wrote: There has been a bit of discussion about corporation taxes after our dev blog update to Planetary Conquest so I wanted to start a thread specifically on that. 1. Are you in favour of having a corporation tax system, allowing directors to specify a % percentage of all income earned by mercenaries to be taxed and delivered to the corporation wallet? 2. Should this be the same tax value that is used in EVE for mixed corporations? 3. Should we set tax on NPC corporations as well to encourage players to find player corporations that may have a cheaper tax rate? What would the default tax rate be? Cheers- 1). Yes entirely 2). I don't play eve so I can't answer 3). Yes but NPC corporate members should have some benefit from it. Players (CEO) wanting to create their own single member corporation to avoid this tax should be taxed relative to the number of corporate members (i.e. high tax which gradually lowers as the corporation accepts more members to compensate this CEO tax). This would control for those players wanting to avoid NPC corporation taxes with bogus corporations).
Crazy Viper Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 0	Posted - 2013.04.08 16:53:00 - [119] - Quote 1. Yes 2. No. More options are always better. If the corps want to use the same tax rate, they can still do so. Let them decide. 3. No. It doesn't make sense to tax NPC corps in DUST. As others have indicated people will just create their own tax shelter corps and pay nothing. And what would be the point of that? It's different from EVE. If you are in a player corp in EVE, others can declare war on you, attack you and destroy your stuff. If you are in an NPC corp you are (more or less) safe and in exchange you pay the default tax. Creating your own corp is risk free in DUST and it'd always be profitable on the long run, if the NPC corp has >0 tax.
Caliban Xpresscius Jump Out Boys 5	Posted - 2013.04.08 18:47:00 - [120] - Quote 1. Yep 2. Really can't answer that since I'm just a Duster 3. Yes, range between 10-15%



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