@ Rei:

Your post sums up my entire point: there is no viable recon fitting available to scouts.

what the hell am I suposed to do when I get to the recon point? Sit there and jerk it while the enemy hack the objective? Watch the enemy finish steam rolling the friendlies? Let them simply push through to a stratigic point? Recon is about more than just giving intel and any Army Ranger would be glad to tell you that. They don't give those guys guns for nothing you know.

{edit>>> I do what I can until reinforcements arive. And my 5% reduction in speed still puts me well above the speed of any assault out there especially when you consider that almost every assault is wearing at least one plate anyway. It does a hell of a lot better than what you are suggesting and that is experience talking.

And what the hell are you doing runing around in a vk with that kind of sh!t EHP? That sh!t would never fly in a corp battle against any one worth their salt

I'm living in a wonderful, magical dreamworld where VIDEOGAMES AREN'T REAL LIFE AND DON'T FOLLOW THE SAME RULES. Maybe you should try it sometime?

If you're arriving at the point of an attack with more than a few seconds to spare, either your teammates are taking too long or you forgot to help them out in a couple of fights along the way. Real-world recon involves a lot of elements that are impractical, impossible or just not fun to simulate. Real-world recon requires set-up time and lots of waiting around and "not contributing" before anything happens.

And if you suck at recon in DUST, you die lots. If you're good at it, the enemy rarely even sees you.

Higher-tier Logi suits with Stamina skills/mods.

You sacrifice some stealth, and only have one gun, but if you can make that work, you can have your speed-focused combat suit.

But that's not a Recon suit, which is what Ignoble is CLAIMING to want, in spite of apparent evidence tot he contrary.

Hay some body's got to escort the fat boy and the medic them things don't escort themselves across the battle field you know.

And I never stick around after we break the enemy line. That's what the fat boy is for.

All i read from you is that you want Recon AND be able to take care of the enemies on your own.

Basically you want to be a Cloaked Assault Recon....



There are more usefull mods then just stacking MAX HP, armor plates are used on a VK0 not a VK1 and having speed + ability to recharge my shields to maximum in 8-9s from 0 is worth more then just having more HP.

So say you stack 533 shields on a VK1, someone depletes those, then you sit there 4.8s before regen kicks in and gain 28 shields a second = 23 seconds thumb twiddling or at 15s mark jumping back out with 250 shields.

Or with my suit you have 401 shields back after just 8.6 seconds.

So that guy if he engages me again after he "depleted" my shields at the 9 second mark he has 100 shields back, while my suit has 401, ill eat the guy for dinner and any shields idd lose to the first guy will be back for the second and the third ...unless they flank me or engage all at once, but then again i got greater sprint speed then you have in my VK1.

It lets me chew trough those supposed teams you talk about, because each and every one of them stacks HP HP and more HP.

13ear even send me fan-mail, 12 of them after we raped his team, blew up his tank and killed him 4 times, ussually he quits a game after 2 deaths so it was a record by his standards. :)

My fits r fine and are specced for Lone Wolfing, yours are all "I wanna do everything all at once" witch in EVE does not work.

And why wouldn't I think this when it is almost certain that the odd are going to be severely stacked against me even with the maximum HP I can squeeze out of a scout suit. Is there really anything more important than survivabIlity?

*scratches head*

Uh ... maybe?

I can see the theory, but I've out zig-zagged too many of those (even with my frail defenses) to really have much confidence in their maneuverability.

Ignoble undercuts his own points by simultaneously waving his scout E-peen and complaining about how he's underpowered, with a side-order of offensive ad hominem, but ... there may be a place in the game for something with a scout's speed and a logi's defensive profile, probably balanced by having the electronics of an assault suit.

I'm not sure I'd play it. I'm damn sure I don't care to lose the scout we have for the ninja marauder he wants. But ... I can see why he'd want it.

Perhaps we'll get a tech 2 "assassin" scout suit somewhere down the line.

Since when is it the job of a recon to escort or guard personnel?

You want:
*Invisible
*Assault capabilities
*Recon
*Escort, Guard Duty
*Commando Lone wolfing

With your scout ?

thats the stuff you wanna do summed up in this thread, in your tights...suit..

Wrong suit choice, the Assault is better at all that, except Invisible & Recon but those are the parts you talk about only and never seem to actually be doing....


Would be cool, also expect it to have a Sidearm Slot only.

More important than survivability? No.
More important than EHP? Definitely.

Unlike EVE, there's more to survival than balancing EHP vs. DPS.


B-Series Logi? Or vk.1? They're the ones with the speed buff that actually lets them match (or outpace) Scouts. They may not have the evasive abilities of a Scout during combat, but they have high sprint speed AND more fitting capacity, which means they can be more heavily tanked (with more HP to start with) while still getting a Stamina mod to help balance their shortage in that regard. Also, more equipment slots, which will mean room for a cloak when they show up - they're supposedly going to be equipment.

B-Series Logi? Or vk.1? They're the ones with the speed buff that actually lets them match (or outpace) Scouts. They may not have the evasive abilities of a Scout during combat, but they have high sprint speed AND more fitting capacity, which means they can be more heavily tanked (with more HP to start with) while still getting a Stamina mod to help balance their shortage in that regard. Also, more equipment slots, which will mean room for a cloak when they show up - they're supposedly going to be equipment.

Your tactics are based around you running with half a squad all the time, and your constant lack of support. As an assault with over 500 shield running in a tight squad you should very rarely be running into situations where you are getting you shields depleted. But your not your off doing every thing lone wolf stile with mad.

I don't claim to be psychic, but I think it's largely the evasive qualities our abrasive friend is after.

Dance like a butterfly, sting like a dude with a plasma assault rifle.

And the tactics you want to use are based around you running off completely unsupported instead of having at least half a squad working together like the guy you're complaining about, in a suit that's NOT built for direct combat, and complaining that you can't go into straight-up fights against enemies who outnumber you and have more EHP because you're built for speed and stealth more than durability.

If you're running a Scout and actually providing recon for a squad, you should rarely even be getting shot at, let alone taking hits, but you're not, you're off doing everything lone wolf style completely alone.

Maybe you should think about the fact that your own arguments are countering one another before trying to make them?

I never complained about any of the stuff you say I have complained about. In fact, I am perfectly fine with the EHP disadvantage of the scout. What I am not ok with is not being able to use e-wear, which is infact what I did complain about.

Get your facts strait.

Ok, lets assume they fix the scout the way you like it,

You arrive at the coordinates before your team like in your post and encounter multiple assaults, you then proceed with engaging them like you say, you dont twiddle thumbs while waiting for backup and kill them all...

Lol

I am quite sorry if it appears that I am intentionally atempting to personally insult anyone my written debate stile was cultivated in a highly scientific atmosphere, and scientific debates can become very authoritative/heated very quickly.

So I apologize if I have offended anyone. It was honestly not my intent.

The only reason you can't use e-war is because you're focusing on EHP instead, when you shouldn't be as concerned with that on a Scout because your goal is to not be getting shot. Maybe a Shield Extender, maybe an Armour Repper or Triage Nanohive (because you're usually out of reach of Repair Tools), then pile on the e-war gear. Dampeners, Precision/Range Amps, etc. Load yourself up for scanning and/or stealth, with only a little bit of tank in case the plan falls apart. Pick off stragglers from the group. Chip away at people who are already taking fire. Hit someone as a DISTRACTION rather than a direct attack.

It may not be the best source of WP, but it makes you more of a benefit to the team.

And yes, if you're spotted, you go *splat* really fast, but if you do the job well, that's the exception rather than the rule. Active Scanners will change this up a little, and so will cloaking. But neither will have a huge impact on the role of such a suit, only its performance in that role.

All good. One of my housemates is a dedicated, rationalist techie who shows some of the same qualities, so I'm familiar with the phenomenon (though I appreciate the context). Of course, I also was not one of those receiving the brunt of your wrath.

It's ironic that discussions among people engaged in what is meant to be a pure exercise of reason (the hard sciences, not DUST) get heated easily. Ah, well ... we're all human, after all.

Do I have your desire for "scout as agile combatant" down correctly? It's a perspective, as I've mentioned, I can understand and respect even if I don't agree with it-- or at least with the need for the current scout to be transformed into it.

The scout as it presently stands doesn't seem particularly underpowered to me, though I've admittedly been using it in public matches (corp matches want the best, and I'm certainly not the best the PFBHz have to offer). My setup isn't high-end, but I survive well enough and can do a lot of mischief in a short time.

Just ... not so much of it while looking down the sights of a gun. I defend myself or pick off easy kills, but otherwise I'm busy hacking the CRU or objective while my squad is fighting (works surprisingly well even if there are shots zinging past my ears-- people usually hunt the hacker only after they're not getting shot at) , or setting traps to blow up later.

So far, the best weapons I've had as a scout are AV grenades and remote explosives. I spring for Advanced on both, the only higher-quality gear I usually carry.

That seems like a perfectly acceptable scouting role, to me: use electronics, hacking, traps, and the occasional seeking grenade. Provide good intel, take shameless advantage of chaos, make yourself a confounded nuisance, and try to provide that little bit of "edge" that wins the match.

An agile attacker seems like a worthwhile, and arguably unfilled, role, but it's not my role, at least not right now. I like my role. It suits me. I expect it to suit me even better when the maps are twenty times their current size.

I can understand what you want, and why, but I don't feel I should need to give up what I have for you to obtain it.

The only reason I can't use e-wear is because I can't otherwise make a servivable scout. E-wear is not a viable replacement for HP.

Yet you already know that the tactics I am talking about have nothing to with the tactic you are talking about now, nor are they applicable to what I am attempting to attchive by employing said tactics.

Ok, lets assume they fix the scout the way you like it,

You arrive at the coordinates before your team like in your post and encounter multiple assaults, you then proceed with engaging them like you say, you dont twiddle thumbs while waiting for backup and kill them all...

30s later the assaults get there, with ....nothing to assault, you again use your speed to get to another place on the map ahead of your assault team mates, they arrive again with the enemy team mobbed up and packaged ready for transit.

But wait the Assault pulls out a gun! Did he see an enemy you did not see ???

Nah.... The assault pulls out his barcode register gun and prints our a barcode for on the Crate to ship them to a biomass vat because your suits sensors are better then theirs so its impossible to have missed any....

You then tell your squadmates to rendezvous at Delta, and while giving them a handshake you make make sure to tell them to make sure theres enough rounds left in those barcode guns!

Cant have my shipment of clones not covered for freight next day delivery!


Anything wrong here, where does the Assault come in, like doing his job assaulting??

Well ... hm. Let me think.

Giving you a little more defense would allow you to pursue your preferred tactics more easily. Clear enough. Just tweaking that doesn't really cost us anything ... assuming that's all that happens.

I suppose what we're concerned about is that this shift would come at the expense of our preferred tactics-- that the scout suit would become less-frequently used for straight-up stealth. The suit doesn't seem underpowered to us, so what you suggest seems like it would be more of a change of role than an improvement on an existing one.

We're kind of the conservatives in this discussion: "It's fine as is. Just leave it alone!"

Of course, if it were used for attack more often, that could actually make sneaking easier.

One concern, though: the shotgun scout only avoids being flavor of the month by virtue of that title having been given to the laser assaults already. Are you sure this change of yours wouldn't just result in scout suits taking over for assault as the most-used, with ravening packs of well-defended scouts overrunning everything in sight with their creaky-gate weaponry?

I mean, I kind of smile, right now, when a shotgun scout tries to sneak up on me (my Analysis skill is high enough that I see them coming), but I'm not sure I'd be smiling if they could take more hits than they currently can.

Well ... hm. Let me think.

Giving you a little more defense would allow you to pursue your preferred tactics more easily. Clear enough. Just tweaking that doesn't really cost us anything ... assuming that's all that happens.

I suppose what we're concerned about is that this shift would come at the expense of our preferred tactics-- that the scout suit would become less-frequently used for straight-up stealth. The suit doesn't seem underpowered to us, so what you suggest seems like it would be more of a change of role than an improvement on an existing one.

We're kind of the conservatives in this discussion: "It's fine as is. Just leave it alone!"

Of course, if it were used for attack more often, that could actually make sneaking easier.

One concern, though: the shotgun scout only avoids being flavor of the month by virtue of that title having been given to the laser assaults already. Are you sure this change of yours wouldn't just result in scout suits taking over for assault as the most-used, with ravening packs of well-defended scouts overrunning everything in sight with their creaky-gate weaponry?

I mean, I kind of smile, right now, when a shotgun scout tries to sneak up on me (my Analysis skill is high enough that I see them coming), but I'm not sure I'd be smiling if they could take more hits than they currently can.

See this is where you're wrong. A Scout doesn't have that much speed in any way to manage to get to objectives substantially faster than an Assault.

I'm a scout....


more cpu would be nice

could care less about stealth module as I never plan to sit still as sitting still means death for a scout.

I think the shot gun is ridiculous and most 'fixes' seem to be geared toward the shotgun mentality imo

I think a slight CPU upgrade would be wonderful


Circuitry 5
Light Weapon Upgrade Pro 2 or 3
Shield upgrades 5 (yup 310K SP spent to get a 3% CPU reduction on shield extenders)
any other skill that would reduce CPU usage of any module or piece of equipment I carry

and CPU upgrades 3, cause when I actually do put on my proto scout suit I actually need to use a low slot for one, and its the VK.1 because I need the extra CPU it provides