DUST Search - What can be done to "fix" the Scout suit?

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

The primary job of recon is to spot for your squadmates. Locate the enemies so the assault elements can move in with a better picture of what they're heading into.

They know where the enemies are, which direction they're facing, and how best to ambush them. If you hit a couple of guys with a quick spray of gunfire then disappear, that will divert their attention from where your main attack is about to hit. That means 2 - 3 enemies facing the wrong way, which can be enough to turn the tide. Sometimes you'll be able to draw more than just a couple of eyes your way without significant risk. You only fired a handful of shots, and didn't stay visible for long enough to even take fire, let alone get killed like you would if you entered combat, but you draw enemy attention away from the threat, and give your teammates an edge they could never have without you. The high speed and low profile mean that as soon as you turn the corner, you're invisible. The scanning modules (backed by relevant skills) mean the same DOESN'T hold true for your enemies, who remain lit up as long as they're anywhere near you.


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Tarquin Markel Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 89	Posted - 2013.04.09 05:41:00 - [1] - Quote Icy TIG3R wrote: SCOUTS HAVE NO STEALTH BONUS. IF SOMEONE LOOKS UP. THEY SEE ME. AND THEN, SAID SCOUT IS DEAD IN 2 SECONDS. Hit detection is not my f****** problem. That was one incident in Moejoe's video, and hit detection is not game mechanics. Look around in a match once, how many Assaults, Logos, and Heavy's do you see? Yet there's only 1-2 Scouts, 50% of the time snipers. Do snipers need speed? F* no. .... Shields? Better on Assault. Armor? Better on Assault. A slight speed boost, nearly useless when bullets can hit you around cover. Lower Scan? Useless, as soon as you walk into someone's fov, you're ******. Therefore, Scouts require a buff. Just making the cloak exclusive to Scout would help, but a lot of you bitches want it along with a tanked suit with damage mods. Heya, Icy. Interesting thoughts. Let me see if I can respond in a way that satisfies. The kind of role you seem to be imagining for a "strong" scout-- one capable of coming up even on war points-- is an attractive one, and probably one that some of my teammates (stateproperty07 comes to mind) would prefer I use. The scout setup I usually use is probably one of the weakest suits in a straight fight. If forced to fight head on, I whip out an SMG. The enemy gets an AR if I'm lucky, shotgun or (god forbid) HMG if I'm not. My best chance is to zig-zag like mad, try to focus my spray in roughly the right direction, and hope to God that I manage to bestow the required tally of hot lead before my defenses fold. I have to fight my every instinct and remember to zig-zag TOWARDS the goddamn assault suit, not away. If I'm lucky, I win. If not.... So why the hell would I spend most of my time running around in a scout suit? Aside from masochism, that is. The short answer is "situational awareness." The thing is, with a scout suit, every straight fight is a desperate fight. So, if I'm on my game, I don't fight straight.* Lurk behind cover, track enemy movements on radar, evade like crazy, call in support, flank, sucker-punch. If an assault suit is looking at me across open ground, he's either one plasma burst from death or I made a serious mistake. The scout suit excels in the attributes most neglected in the current build: electronics. Best sensors, best profile, and take it from me, it matters. Assault suits are fearsome in a conventional firefight, but less so if they don't see you slipping up behind. Shotgun scouts lose most of their power if you see them coming on the mini-map and twist away from wherever you were as they "snuck up on you" with a mid-ranged weapon ready to go. Even heavies are vulnerable-- not because they go down easy, but because they tend to be very focused on taking down what's in front before turning to face a new threat (believing, I presume, and probably correctly, that turning your flank to an AR assault is a bad idea). Currently, stealth in DUST has two layers: the RL (or Monty Python, if you prefer) -like Art of Not Being Seen and the electronics game. Anybody can do the former, though being able to bound over railings helps a bunch and I gather heavies don't do that. The electronics game, however, becomes important when the Art of Not Being Seen is being practiced successfully-- either because someone is proactively staying out of sight or because someone is staying out of sight and therefore has trouble tracking hostile movement visually. If you have your back to a shotgun scout, it's pretty damned important whether your sensors are good enough to pick it up. Likewise, if you're trying to bring an SMG to bare on the head of an assault suited hacker, it's best if your little orange dot isn't appearing on the mini map. If I'm in a firefight I just can't seem to escape, and sometimes that's exactly the way of it, then yes, I'll bring in an assault. I invested in decent assaults for just this reason. I prefer, however, to get myself lost while making sure others get found in compromising positions. For that, there's nothing like a scout. Dampening modules are out of fashion right now, but fashion can go kitten itself. Just because few take advantage doesn't mean the advantage doesn't exist.
Tarquin Markel Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 94	Posted - 2013.04.11 16:10:00 - [2] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: The primary job of recon is to spot for your squadmates. Locate the enemies so the assault elements can move in with a better picture of what they're heading into. They know where the enemies are, which direction they're facing, and how best to ambush them. If you hit a couple of guys with a quick spray of gunfire then disappear, that will divert their attention from where your main attack is about to hit. That means 2 - 3 enemies facing the wrong way, which can be enough to turn the tide. Sometimes you'll be able to draw more than just a couple of eyes your way without significant risk. You only fired a handful of shots, and didn't stay visible for long enough to even take fire, let alone get killed like you would if you entered combat, but you draw enemy attention away from the threat, and give your teammates an edge they could never have without you. The high speed and low profile mean that as soon as you turn the corner, you're invisible. The scanning modules (backed by relevant skills) mean the same DOESN'T hold true for your enemies, who remain lit up as long as they're anywhere near you. I prefer to play it just the opposite-- wait until both sides are fully committed, then slip in behind and start hacking important stuff and shredding distracted personnel. Admittedly, your approach has the advantage of getting the battle started on the right foot, but I do my best work when nobody's trying to cut me down with a Duvolle's. EDIT: Seeing your edit ... Making sure that hardly anybody takes an interest in you is one reason to favor AR or SMG fire over shotgun. The moment hostiles hear a shotgun, they have a pretty good clue what's happening. Stick with the same sort of gunfire that's already going off on all sides, and they've got much less reason to turn around.
Tarquin Markel Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 94	Posted - 2013.04.11 16:23:00 - [3] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: I take that approach at times as well, check my edit. Also, it's funny that someone who keeps saying he wants a "recon" build thinks that EHP is a primary consideration for such a build. If you're looking at EHP over other stats, you're doing recon wrong. Saw your edit. Added my own. About Igonoble Son: I can see the angle, to play devil's advocate for a few seconds. The scout suit is almost well-suited to a highly mobile combat style, and I find myself doing just that (usually because I got spotted) often enough to make shield extenders worthwhile. Maps are currently small enough that it can be hard to find an unwatched path. There are mobile combat suits that do stealth just "okay" and highly-mobile stealth suits that do combat just "okay" ... and stealth is just a little bit gimped. There are no highly-mobile combat suits. That's what Ignoble Son, et al, seem to want.
Tarquin Markel Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 94	Posted - 2013.04.11 16:54:00 - [4] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Tarquin Markel wrote: There are no highly-mobile combat suits. That's what Ignoble Son, et al, seem to want. Higher-tier Logi suits with Stamina skills/mods. You sacrifice some stealth, and only have one gun, but if you can make that work, you can have your speed-focused combat suit. But that's not a Recon suit, which is what Ignoble is CLAIMING to want, in spite of apparent evidence tot he contrary. scratches head Uh ... maybe? I can see the theory, but I've out zig-zagged too many of those (even with my frail defenses) to really have much confidence in their maneuverability. Ignoble undercuts his own points by simultaneously waving his scout E-peen and complaining about how he's underpowered, with a side-order of offensive ad hominem, but ... there may be a place in the game for something with a scout's speed and a logi's defensive profile, probably balanced by having the electronics of an assault suit. I'm not sure I'd play it. I'm damn sure I don't care to lose the scout we have for the ninja marauder he wants. But ... I can see why he'd want it. Perhaps we'll get a tech 2 "assassin" scout suit somewhere down the line.
Tarquin Markel Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 94	Posted - 2013.04.11 17:26:00 - [5] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: B-Series Logi? Or vk.1? They're the ones with the speed buff that actually lets them match (or outpace) Scouts. They may not have the evasive abilities of a Scout during combat, but they have high sprint speed AND more fitting capacity, which means they can be more heavily tanked (with more HP to start with) while still getting a Stamina mod to help balance their shortage in that regard. Also, more equipment slots, which will mean room for a cloak when they show up - they're supposedly going to be equipment. I don't claim to be psychic, but I think it's largely the evasive qualities our abrasive friend is after. Dance like a butterfly, sting like a dude with a plasma assault rifle.
Tarquin Markel Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 95	Posted - 2013.04.11 18:02:00 - [6] - Quote Ignoble Son wrote: Lol I am quite sorry if it appears that I am intentionally atempting to personally insult anyone my written debate stile was cultivated in a highly scientific atmosphere, and scientific debates can become very authoritative/heated very quickly. So I apologize if I have offended anyone. It was honestly not my intent. All good. One of my housemates is a dedicated, rationalist techie who shows some of the same qualities, so I'm familiar with the phenomenon (though I appreciate the context). Of course, I also was not one of those receiving the brunt of your wrath. It's ironic that discussions among people engaged in what is meant to be a pure exercise of reason (the hard sciences, not DUST) get heated easily. Ah, well ... we're all human, after all. Do I have your desire for "scout as agile combatant" down correctly? It's a perspective, as I've mentioned, I can understand and respect even if I don't agree with it-- or at least with the need for the current scout to be transformed into it. The scout as it presently stands doesn't seem particularly underpowered to me, though I've admittedly been using it in public matches (corp matches want the best, and I'm certainly not the best the PFBHz have to offer). My setup isn't high-end, but I survive well enough and can do a lot of mischief in a short time. Just ... not so much of it while looking down the sights of a gun. I defend myself or pick off easy kills, but otherwise I'm busy hacking the CRU or objective while my squad is fighting (works surprisingly well even if there are shots zinging past my ears-- people usually hunt the hacker only after they're not getting shot at) , or setting traps to blow up later. So far, the best weapons I've had as a scout are AV grenades and remote explosives. I spring for Advanced on both, the only hi gear I usually carry. That seems like a perfectly acceptable scouting role, to me: use electronics, hacking, traps, and the occasional seeking grenade. Provide good intel, take shameless advantage of chaos, make yourself a confounded nuisance, and try to provide that little bit of "edge" that wins the match. An agile attacker seems like a worthwhile, and arguably unfilled, role, but it's not my role, at least not right now. I like my role. It suits me. I expect it to suit me even better when the maps are twenty times their current size. I can understand what you want, and why, but I don't feel I should need to give up what I have for you to obtain it.
Tarquin Markel Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 95	Posted - 2013.04.11 18:42:00 - [7] - Quote Ignoble Son wrote: The only reason I can't use e-wear is because I can't otherwise make a servivable scout. E-wear is not a viable replacement for HP. It's viable if, and only if, you can avoid getting spotted. Not easy. Possible, though. It may be that Garrett, Rei, and I are just more optimistic about our chances, there. An analogy: snipers in DUST tend to prosper best when they find someplace odd to hang out. On Manus Peak, "sniper mountain" and the big mountain are viable sniper perches only so long as you can suppress all counter-sniping that bypasses the terrain modeling (the real nature of the "head glitch"). If there's a more creative sniper out there with an unimpeded angle on your position, you're toast. Tactical sniper double-tap. Correspondingly, snipers in areas with narrower fields of fire (hence harder to spot) or positioned in rarely-used locations can last all game, with or without hostile snipers on the field. Sneaking in DUST is like that whether you're sniping or not. Stay physically out of sight, and damps are worth using. To stay physically out of sight, you have to use routes that people do not usually use. This also means that any route that is routinely used by people trying to stay out of sight is a bad route. Hence my complaint about small maps: it can be tricky, sometimes verging on impossible, to find the road less traveled. It takes skill, and probably a good bit of luck. I do my share of dying. Succeeding, however, is highly rewarding.
Tarquin Markel Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz Noir. Mercenary Group 95	Posted - 2013.04.11 19:10:00 - [8] - Quote Ignoble Son wrote: Yet you already know that the tactics I am talking about have nothing to with the tactic you are talking about now, nor are they applicable to what I am attempting to attchive by employing said tactics. Well ... hm. Let me think. Giving you a little more defense would allow you to pursue your preferred tactics more easily. Clear enough. Just tweaking that doesn't really cost us anything ... assuming that's all that happens. I suppose what we're concerned about is that this shift would come at the expense of our preferred tactics-- that the scout suit would become less-frequently used for straight-up stealth. The suit doesn't seem underpowered to us, so what you suggest seems like it would be more of a change of role than an improvement on an existing one. We're kind of the conservatives in this discussion: "It's fine as is. Just leave it alone!" Of course, if it were used for attack more often, that could actually make sneaking easier. One concern, though: the shotgun scout only avoids being flavor of the month by virtue of that title having been given to the laser assaults already. Are you sure this change of yours wouldn't just result in scout suits taking over for assault as the most-used, with ravening packs of well-defended scouts overrunning everything in sight with their creaky-gate weaponry? I mean, I kind of smile, right now, when a shotgun scout tries to sneak up on me (my Analysis skill is high enough that I see them coming), but I'm not sure I'd be smiling if they could take more hits than they currently can.