...Mercenary Pack will be credited in full to your in-game DUST 514 account after each character reset AND for the commercial release

*emphasis added

Its a misreading of the terms of sale.

Terms goes something like this after boiled down very heavily.

You pay us this much
You get these items

Note:
If Reset
Then Reissue, No other refunds

It's not a "refund" DS.



That IS the Merc Pack. Whether you think that's an awesome deal or not can be discussed, but it's pretty clear language man. If it "doesn't make sense" to you, take it up with CCP, they wrote it not me, but don't get upset at me for wanting to receive what I paid for.

CCP included in the small print, when buying the merc pack in closed beta, that you'd get aurum back for each SP reset and before commercial release. As the game hasn't been commercially released yet, they want their Aurum back. But that would mean being able to buy SP boosters, and that means gaining two sets of SP boosters for basically the price of one.

CCP have categorically ruled out any SP reset, barring something dramatic.

Why are people asking for it now? There have been no solid official announcements of commercial release. Just speculation and a dev(?) that unofficial lot said it. Is that why there's such a backlash over it?

no, it says very clearly that at commercial release you get all the items credited to your account again. It's quoted above, simple language, nothing about requiring resets or refunds. You are the one "misreading" in this particular case.

Heck, the ones they sell at Gamestop STILL say this.

it's not "the small print" it's the main selling point of the Merc pack, and was hocked by CCP as such. Nor does it say anything about a "refund" or the commercial release having a "reset"
in fact, it specifically delineates between aSP resets and commercial release, implying that they are very separate things.

Well I just clear cut all the fancy words out. This is all what is left afterwards.

Secondly Notices are not legal binding.

...Mercenary Pack will be credited in full to your in-game DUST 514 account... for the commercial release

*emphasis added

INB4LOCK

Seriously people. There are already a bunch of threads on this.

CCP should present the choice: FULL reset on commercial release (SP and AUR included), or stay the course. That way people can't call them on this small SNAFU.

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=66280&find=unread

Already being discussed.

I think the players looking for a second FREE merc pack are far more greedier.

Everyone who purchased the Merc Pack under those terms - as set out when in the pre-purchase agreement - is legally entitled to receive everything they purchased.

Give those who want the option to get back their AUR and BPCs. In exchange they get reset as promised for the Commercial Release.

Which I pointed out in the other thread were listed by quantity at the time of purchase. So you got everything you were supposed to.

Sounds fair to me. Purchasers can petition to get their Merc Pack items / AUR refunded, and CCP will refund them after resetting their characters. It fulfills the contract. Anything more is just people being greedy.

There you go Baal, that work for you?

GOT everything we WERE SUPPOSED to, but haven't YET received everything we WILL BE entitled to under the terms agreed upon purchase.

What? You didn't get your items? Should have contacted Sony about that before now. Were they just missing or did the download fail or what?

We haven't hit commercial release yet. The Merc Pack is to be credited to the account at commercial release. I know you know this at this point, I've quoted the Merc Pack itself in response to you. At this point it must be assumed you are simply trolling.

What? You didn't get your items? Should have contacted Sony about that before now. Were they just missing or did the download fail or what?

No, absolutely not. That's disgusting. Why are you people so deadset on the people who bought a Merc Pack receiving the items they purchased? Why would the people who actually paid CCP real world money for those items need to have their progress in the game reset in order to recieve them? How does that make ANY sense whatsoever? Are you just jealous that you didn't buy a Merc Pack when they were still such an awesome deal? If that's the case, just go buy one from Game Stop, the deal is still going on there with that particular Merc Pack. Otherwise stop being so spiteful and let us get the items we bought without trying to figure out a way to screw your opponents out of their purchase.

We will gladly refund any Merc packs purchased by players before XX/XX/XXXX. However, we will be resetting those player's characters before applying the refund. This is to ensure that players who applied the Merc Pack to their characters before XX/XX/XXXX do not benefit from the items and AURUM twice. If you would like your Merc Pack refunded please contact CCP Customer Support at [email protected].

Either way the only way to fulfill the agreement would require RESETTING the game.

Which is considered the far greater evil of the two.

Added in explanations of how you're missing the point in parentheses. I hope that helps.

The product description on the Merc Pack that was on the PS Store at the time many of us purchased them included events that haven't happened yet. We haven't received those parts of what we purchased yet because the event on which they depend has yet to occur.

And as long as that clause was in the description of the product provided by the store at which the Merc Pack was purchased, it's a legally binding part of the purchase agreement, and is independent of the terms of use that CCP have the right to alter as set out when a player first starts up the beta.

I'm afraid you are missing what I'm saying. This isn't my opinion or how I think it should be, this is the law. When you bought the merc pack it said, for example, 30 Day Booster x 1. That is not what you were receiving at that time, that was what you agreed to purchase period.

I'm not exaggerating when I say there is no wiggle room at all in that. That is as legally binding as anything can possibly be.
So you have received exactly what you agreed to purchase. So you're trying to tell me that you looked at the list of contents and saw 30-Day Booster x 1 and thought you were going to get 2? And no implied product clause modifies jack. Those numbers are what you agree to purchase.

I'm serious about this, if you fail to understand this one single point I was assume you lack the mental capacity for productive dialogue and ignore your future posts. Those quantities of items are all you are entitled to receive unless explicitly stated somewhere that additional items will be delivered at a future date. By explicit I don't mean clear, I mean things like "At such date for such payment amount this certain quantity will be delivered". I don't see that anywhere.

And like I said before, "credited to your account" means to replace that which was lost. It is a term with a fixed meaning. You must first give something to someone else before you can receive "credit" for it. A credit can not increase the quantity of anything. A credit is merely a representation of something else. In fact, in a legal sense if you are credited something and yet you currently posses that item, therefor increasing what you posses from 1 to 2 of the whatever, you are required by law to return the credit immediately and will be held liable in court if you spend it.

What about the part that you can't be "credited in full" for something you currently posses? You know the part about none of the words on that page equal "get an additional one at no cost"?

EDIT:I'm sorry, I have to ask. Seriously. Real talk. When you bought the merc pack months and months ago you knew you were going to get two of them for the price of one?

What about the part that you can't be "credited in full" for something you currently posses? You know the part about none of the words on that page equal "get an additional one at no cost"?

EDIT:I'm sorry, I have to ask. Seriously. Real talk. When you bought the merc pack months and months ago you knew you were going to get two of them for the price of one?

correct, the wording is clear. One for the beta, and another at commercial release. This was verified and assured by CCP reps on a regular basis, and people arguing that this wouldn't be the case were ridiculed by other players and CCP reps.

the merc pack IS a fresh set of all items at commercial release. That was the entire point.

The only part where this gets messy is with Boosters, and as I've already said, there's a valid argument saying we still technically have those, and the difficulty of reclaiming them means it's reasonable for CCP to reset any Merc Pack content EXCEPT Boosters - and include Boosters purchased with Merc Pack Aurum in that.

There's no interpretation to be had here. The letter and the law is very clear cut here. We will be getting our merc packs refunded on commercial release as the terms of the contract stated when we made the purchase.

This is not rocket science kids.

The boosters can be substituted for something of equal value though, in this case the SP they got for using the booster in the first place. As long as they keep that, then the agreement would technically be fulfilled right?

EDIT: I asked Sony about this and the unofficial word from some random customer service rep (after she "researched" it for me) was that if CCP releases the game they will have to refund AUR since that what was explicitly stated.

Seems like the forums ate my post. Other people have already raised all my points but I just want to apologize to Garrett. Too many threads got blurry and I didn't realize you were the one saying to reimburse it all back to the original value only, my bad.

"Credited in full" upon release to me means - yes, the second of each: the AUR, booster and the other stuff.

I don't see how CCP can give you the uplinks and militia SG as part of this 'credited in full' but not the booster.

People who say that the extra SP that ppl carry around instead of the booster is an equivalent of the booster, therefore there should not be another booster given, would then have to extend their logic and accept that all those other consummable items are in fact still 'with the player' because they were used to play matches and resulted in accrued SP. And if so, nothing should be 'credited in full' upon release. The agreement, on the other hand, stipulates that the merc pack will be 'credited in full'

To people who say that Merc pack never promised 'the same thing being given tiwce' are wrong because I got my full merc pack already 3 times this beta with each reset. And the agreement clearly states that official release will be treated as a reset as far as Merc pack is concerned; so yes, the full pack much be given another time. So 4 total packs, in my case, with 2 of them having a lasting benefit.

i cant wait for CCP to pull the "Welcome to New eden" on these packs player already used,Their probably not going to do anything seeing as their dancing around the subject

Source? And show me another source where it says they would let you keep the Sp alongside the returned booster.

The boosters can be substituted for something of equal value though, in this case the SP they got for using the booster in the first place. As long as they keep that, then the agreement would technically be fulfilled right?

assuming CCP actually bothered to speak up and respond about the issue.

10 years later... nope, gotta wait another 10 years.

They haven't explained at all how they intend to deal with the Merc Pack, that's the problem.

No, that's not the problem. Thinking you're entitled to a damn thing here is the problem. If you don't like it you can get mad. Write them and angry letter. Write a blog about how unfair it is.

Or you could make a big deal about it, generate some more bad press for the game before it's even released, divide the player base, demand the you get all kinds of stuff you didn't pay for, **** off the new players by demanding even more of an advantage, waste the DEV's time having to deal with this crap. Everybody complains about lack of content now so go ahead and dump a whole bunch of bullshit on their plate right before release because of some sloppy wording.

CCP didn't make you play the BETA. CCP didn't make you buy a Merc Pack. CCP never made you pay a single dime. That was your decision.

You know what CCP did actually make you do? Agree to a document that affirmed you understood that everything in the BETA is subject to change and CCP makes no promises that what they do today won't be undone tomorrow.

What they did say over and over again during closed beta is that we could be sure that we would recieve all of our AUR that we purchased back at launch because it's "ridiculous to charge players for items in a beta" and that the Merc Pack should be seen as a "prepurchase for goods players will recieve at launch"

Again...ridiculous if you're not going to delete it one day and not give it back after the final reset. And "Launch"? What difference does it make? Was the AUR I spent wasted because it wasn't "Launch"? My SP is getting boosted this week the same as it would after Launch.

Anyone who used their Merc Pack or regular AUR purchases between the start of the open beta and weeks later when they made this announcement were basically screwed.

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/74180

Posted Jan. 8. 2 days before reset.

Such short memories people seem to have.

Yes they do.

[quote=Sloth9230]

Most of the issue here is CCP's lack of response on this, and their apparent about face on the issue. Again, really this is an issue of trust and principle. My $20 Merc Pack itself isn't that big of a deal, but what this situation does (with the way CCP are FAILING to handle it) is makes many of us who bought a Merc Pack much less likely to trust CCP in the future. If I don't get a fair shake on this Merc Pack situation you can gaurantee I won't be buying any more products from CCP in the future. Basically, they have potential future customers hinging on how they deal with this situation.

Trust and principle? Yea, and the American Civil War was about State's rights. They have said along that plans will change. We signed legal documents stating we knew things would change. Then things changed and now everybody's all pissed off and demanding free stuff. What do you want them say about it? We all knew things would change. That merc pack was guaranteed to survive all the resets. You still have it, right? End of discussion. All this false indignation is because there's a possibility of free stuff due to careless language.-á

We get pissed when they don't tell us enough about what's going on. Then when they do tell us things, even though we promised that we understood it could all change at any time, we all get so outraged that they've violated out trust. Blow me. They were stupid for bringing real money in to this but we were all stupid for spending it.

Trust and principle? Yea, and the American Civil War was about State's rights. They have said along that plans will change. We signed legal documents stating we knew things would change. Then things changed and now everybody's all pissed off and demanding free stuff. What do you want them say about it? We all knew things would change. That merc pack was guaranteed to survive all the resets. You still have it, right? End of discussion. All this false indignation is because there's a possibility of free stuff due to careless language.

We get pissed when they don't tell us enough about what's going on. Then when they do tell us things, even though we promised that we understood it could all change at any time, we all get so outraged that they've violated out trust. Blow me. They were stupid for bringing real money in to this but we were all stupid for spending it.

I put all that hard work and effort into my post and all I got was one lousy like from you guys. No replies no pats on the back? I feel robbed.

Here, +2 just for being so long.

I put all that hard work and effort into my post and all I got was one lousy like from you guys. No replies no pats on the back? I feel robbed.

The way I see it is you bought and used a product that benefits you throughout the game. If you purchased skills with SP gained from the booster or Aurum weapons and suits knowing these are limited use items, why should you get a refund? You benefitted from the product as it was intended. Refunding the Merc Pack would essentially give you one for free, right? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Please enlighten me.

It's mostly because there's a faction of players who want the benefit of their Merc Packs for something like the third time in the history of the beta.

The whole idea is that people are greedy, and they'll come up with any reason to justify getting more stuff if they think they can get away with it.

Sadly people don't understand that with the beta legal binding contract we are all still under the "subject to chante" until the "Commercial Release", this can and will indeed change, unfortunately it did for the Merc Pack.

I'm sorry, but the beta terms of use "subject to change" clause doesn't apply to the purchase agreement under which the Merc Pack was bought, which is a totally separate agreement and specifies - WITHOUT any such "unless we decide not to" clause - that there will be a full credit of the contents of the Merc Pack on commercial release.

This argument doesn't apply here. And that fact has already been covered more than once in this thread.

It does when the terms within the beta contract claims rights to all within and if Dev so determine to change something, they can. I understand, it is bad practice to do such a thing with actual hard earned real world dollars are used, but this is the reality of things.

Point me to the Terms of Use of the Open Beta if you think I'm wrong, I will read it over and then apologize if I was in fact wrong.

Until then, in the games current stage, CCP reserves even the right to purchased "Packs".

Difference is, they can't take away the Aurum already provided, nore the items, since they were already provided. A reset though, since it was stated that it would happen with resets, must also imply that with a commercial release, there would be another reset. People just now was another 40k Aurum free.

Went all off the walls when they saw the "no more reset" and got their panties wet while thinking oh... free SP then in a twist when they started thinking about "what if" the Aurum reset was in order with an SP reset...

every reset including commercial release

I hope CCP has stats on each characters SP totals and how much SP was earned through boosters, that way if they have to do a AUR refund on Merc packs they can just respec each character and take away all 'booster SP'.

They can legally change anything that occurs WITHIN the beta.

They CAN'T change an agreement made on purchase of the Merc Pack that exists OUTSIDE of the beta conditions. That isn't subject to the terms of use that are relevant to content within the beta.

They're legally bound, regardless of anything agreed to within the beta's terms of use, to provide the product as agreed when we purchased the Merc Pack. Anything else is legally actionable as false advertising at the very least and could potentially be treated as a fraud case.

The purchase agreement made between CCP and the customers buying the Merc Pack before the change in wording is entirely independent of the beta terms of use, and they're legally required to honour that agreement, which includes the product description as it stood AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE.

EDIT: And in that agreement, it wasn't just stated that we'd get our gear credited back at every reset. It was every reset AND AT COMMERCIAL RELEASE. Not "every reset including commercial release" but "every reset AND commercial release".

What the Merc. Pack should have said.

I hope CCPs learned a valuable lesson.

Oh well, losing case. Doesn't matter what CCP does, or anyone say for that matter. I hope you find what you're searching for. You not feel complete without it. If CCP honors it regardless of standing, great, I feel happy for you all. I don't care either way, I just don't want my SP reset, especially if the reason is because of people who want "their" Aurum

Or, as people have also explained as an option, they could take the "or an equivalent item" portion and explain that the SP you've already boosted is still on your account, and they aren't required to credit you back something you still have.

Or, as people have also explained as an option, they could take the "or an equivalent item" portion and explain that the SP you've already boosted is still on your account, and they aren't required to credit you back something you still have.

You've obviously either skipped most of the thread, or only skim-read chunks of it.

I'm openly saying I DON'T want a forced SP reset for all players, and it's clear that neither does CCP, but I'm happy for anyone who demands their Boosters back to be told "you can have it if you opt in for a reset of your SP", and to explain that the booster-enhanced SP they already have is a suitable "equivalent" to the Booster they're entitled to. Any Boosters that were purchased with Merc Pack Aurum from this time period (or from a store which still uses the out-of-date product description) would also come under the same terms. You get back all your other Aurum from the Merc Pack, but lose any AUR-bought items you still have.

That would be fair, and would honour the intent of the agreement made between the players and CCP when we purchased the Merc Pack.

I highly doubt that this would hold up in court. As the literature clearly refers to the "Mercenary Pack" and "items" contained there in, and SP does not qualify as either and is most assuredly not "of the same value" when one considers that the consumer could have frivolously used them under the impression the they would be credited back to they account.

"DUST 514 Mercenary Pack will be credited in full to your in-game DUST 514 account after each character reset and for the commercial release. CCP cannot guarantee all items will be identical and reserves the right to substitute items of similar value. No other form of refund is permitted."

[quote=Garrett Blacknova][quote=Rusticuls]
I highly doubt that this would hold up in court. As the literature clearly refers to the "Mercenary Pack" and "items" contained there in, and SP does not qualify as either and is most assuredly not "of the same value"when one considers that the consumer could have frivolously used them under the impression the they would be credited back to their account.

"DUST 514 Mercenary Pack will be credited in full to your in-game DUST 514 account after each character reset and for the commercial release.CCP cannot guarantee all items will be identical and reserves the right to substitute items of similar value. No other form of refund is permitted."

only if you opt in for a full SP reset to get it. They've said they don't intend to reset player SP except in a "catastrophe", which this Merc Pack issue has the potential to become.

There's your answer Garret, yes, I can see how it can be confusing though. But as I read this, I look at it as for every character reset and commercial release (another reset). However, through this, it is telling me that if there is ever a reset, that it will be refunded, the final reset being the Commercial Release.

Yes, maybe it could have been worded differently, but still...

And for something whose only purpose and use is to increase your earned SP, then it logically follows that the already-boosted SP is equivalent to an item which ends up as no more than that extra SP you still have from using it. It's also fair, given the lack of definitive statements to the contrary, for CCP to offer a new 30-day Booster, but only if you opt in for a full SP reset to get it. They've said they don't intend to reset player SP except in a "catastrophe", which this Merc Pack issue has the potential to become.

The only way for CCP to move forward with this mater and get what they "may" have intended to obtain is to offer an option to opt out of a reset, with the condition that anyone who opts out sign a waver releasing them from the terms and conditions of the Mercenary Pack. But as I have said before this is highly unethical.

I see no reason for a complete reset. CCP just said they wouldn't put people back at the SP level of a starting character, so SP cuts are fair game. 380,800 is the amount of boosted SP you can gain if you hit the cap for 4 weeks (I'd say is 28 days is close enough to 30).

So really I think players should be allowed to choose either of these options

1. Get back booster back, lose 380,800 SP (basically 2 weeks worth of fully capped SP)
2. Don't get booster back, keep SP as is.

Either would fulfill the agreement.

Edit: and give everyone a free 3-day booster just to get them to shut up lol

As I said, the issue here is the potential frivolous use of the items under the impression that the items would be credited back. The consumer may have been expecting to keep them as collector items, or may have been planing to sell them on the open market, at an enormous increase in value equivalent in ISK, which would mean that the potential SP gained from the the items in the Merc Pack could in fact have been much greater, and this includes the auram as well, it could just as easily have been frivolously spent.

Would you care to explain why player's should lose sp to have the booster refunded as it didn't say anywhere in the merc pack description to receive your booster back upon commercial release you must give up sp. I am only referring to CB pack's before the wording was changed

What the Merc. Pack should have said.

I hope CCPs learned a valuable lesson.

It's true that it doesn't say players must give up a portion of SP, but nowhere on the merc pack does it say that CCP can't take a portion of your SP; therefore, it's perfectly acceptable.


380.8 might be a bit too much for those who didn't try to maximize SP gains (however unlikely that might be), but if CCP doesn't have an exact way of knowing how much boosted SP someone gained, then I think 308,800 would be a reasonable enough amount. Keep in mind that that number doesn't include any SP that might have been after hitting a weekly cap. If someone feels they would lose more SP then they had actually gained, then they can always choose option 2. If someone feels they can make up for what they lose by grinding, then they can choose option 1. Honestly though, I doubt anyone who used the booster didn't try to maximize SP gains, so I see very few people choosing option 1.

Thanks for the response but it still didn't answer my question as to why player's should lose sp

Okay, but if they get the booster back then why should they be allowed to keep the SP from having used the booster in the first place? I'm just saying they should only get to keep the SP that they would have normally had, the unboosted Sp.

And CCP hasn't broken any promises about the Merc Pack.

Why shouldn't they be able to keep it your just basically dodging the question I asked which is your reason you think they should lose the sp.

Honestly why do you care if they get to keep the sp earned with the booster unless your compelling reason is you don't want them to get something your not.

Why shouldn't they be able to keep it your just basically dodging the question I asked which is your reason you think they should lose the sp.

Honestly why do you care if they get to keep the sp earned with the booster unless your compelling reason is you don't want them to get something your not.