DUST Search - I'm lost. Why do people want Merc Pack refunds?

Altina McAlterson wrote:

I'm afraid you are missing what I'm saying. This isn't my opinion or how I think it should be, this is the law. When you bought the merc pack it said, for example, 30 Day Booster x 1. That is not what you were receiving at that time, that was what you agreed to purchase period.

I'm not exaggerating when I say there is no wiggle room at all in that. That is as legally binding as anything can possibly be.
So you have received exactly what you agreed to purchase. So you're trying to tell me that you looked at the list of contents and saw 30-Day Booster x 1 and thought you were going to get 2? And no implied product clause modifies jack. Those numbers are what you agree to purchase.

I'm serious about this, if you fail to understand this one single point I was assume you lack the mental capacity for productive dialogue and ignore your future posts. Those quantities of items are all you are entitled to receive unless explicitly stated somewhere that additional items will be delivered at a future date. By explicit I don't mean clear, I mean things like "At such date for such payment amount this certain quantity will be delivered". I don't see that anywhere.

And like I said before, "credited to your account" means to replace that which was lost. It is a term with a fixed meaning. You must first give something to someone else before you can receive "credit" for it. A credit can not increase the quantity of anything. A credit is merely a representation of something else. In fact, in a legal sense if you are credited something and yet you currently posses that item, therefor increasing what you posses from 1 to 2 of the whatever, you are required by law to return the credit immediately and will be held liable in court if you spend it.


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Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2176	Posted - 2013.03.28 20:56:00 - [1] - Quote Nobody's asking for a "refund" except when they're assuming CCP won't live up to what they offered those who purchased the Merc Pack under the old (still present in Gamestop) product description. And for Iron Wolf, a "notice" may not be legally binding everywhere in the world, but an official product description on the Playstation Store IS legally binding. The terms under which many Merc Packs were purchased specifically define that the contents of the Merc Pack will be "credited in full" to the account on Commercial Release. Everyone who purchased the Merc Pack under those terms - as set out when in the pre-purchase agreement - is legally entitled to receive everything they purchased. CCP, likewise, are entitled to reset ONLY those people who choose to ask for this reset of their Merc Packs, since that won't be a full reset, and since the legal issues surrounding Merc Packs can be seen as a significant enough hurdle to allow a reset. They're also entitled to, as a courtesy to those supportive players who don't want our progress to be wiped, be generous enough to let us pass on the Merc Pack reset, or to give us a good middle ground where they reset everything EXCEPT the boosters, so you get any OTHER Aurum purchases refunded, but if you earned bonus SP beyond your normal cap, then you don't get a refund of the Aurum you spent to do so - but you also don't lose the SP you would otherwise now be entitled to earn twice without legitimately paying for it.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2178	Posted - 2013.03.28 21:26:00 - [2] - Quote Altina McAlterson wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Everyone who purchased the Merc Pack under those terms - as set out when in the pre-purchase agreement - is legally entitled to receive everything they purchased. Which I pointed out in the other thread were listed by quantity at the time of purchase. So you got everything you were supposed to. GOT everything we WERE SUPPOSED to, but haven't YET received everything we WILL BE entitled to under the terms agreed upon purchase.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2179	Posted - 2013.03.28 22:02:00 - [3] - Quote Altina McAlterson wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Altina McAlterson wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Everyone who purchased the Merc Pack under those terms - as set out when in the pre-purchase agreement - is legally entitled to receive everything they purchased. Which I pointed out in the other thread were listed by quantity at the time of purchase. So you got everything you were supposed to. GOT everything we WERE SUPPOSED (past tense) to, but haven't YET (future tense) received everything we WILL BE (future tense) entitled to under the terms agreed upon purchase. What? You didn't get your items? Should have contacted Sony about that before now. Were they just missing or did the download fail or what? Added in explanations of how you're missing the point in parentheses. I hope that helps. The product description on the Merc Pack that was on the PS Store at the time many of us purchased them included events that haven't happened yet. We haven't received those parts of what we purchased yet because the event on which they depend has yet to occur. And as long as that clause was in the description of the product provided by the store at which the Merc Pack was purchased, it's a legally binding part of the purchase agreement, and is independent of the terms of use that CCP have the right to alter as set out when a player first starts up the beta.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2183	Posted - 2013.03.28 22:49:00 - [4] - Quote Altina McAlterson wrote: I'm afraid you are missing what I'm saying. This isn't my opinion or how I think it should be, this is the law. When you bought the merc pack it said, for example, 30 Day Booster x 1. That is not what you were receiving at that time, that was what you agreed to purchase period. I'm not exaggerating when I say there is no wiggle room at all in that. That is as legally binding as anything can possibly be. So you have received exactly what you agreed to purchase. So you're trying to tell me that you looked at the list of contents and saw 30-Day Booster x 1 and thought you were going to get 2? And no implied product clause modifies jack. Those numbers are what you agree to purchase. I'm serious about this, if you fail to understand this one single point I was assume you lack the mental capacity for productive dialogue and ignore your future posts. Those quantities of items are all you are entitled to receive unless explicitly stated somewhere that additional items will be delivered at a future date. By explicit I don't mean clear, I mean things like "At such date for such payment amount this certain quantity will be delivered". I don't see that anywhere. And like I said before, "credited to your account" means to replace that which was lost. It is a term with a fixed meaning. You must first give something to someone else before you can receive "credit" for it. A credit can not increase the quantity of anything. A credit is merely a representation of something else. In fact, in a legal sense if you are credited something and yet you currently posses that item, therefor increasing what you posses from 1 to 2 of the whatever, you are required by law to return the credit immediately and will be held liable in court if you spend it. I'm afraid YOU'RE missing what I'M saying, and definitely NOT the other way around. Yes, they stated clearly the exact content the Merc Pack came with. But they ALSO stated clearly the terms under which those items are given. Those terms as described are just as legally binding as the listing of the Merc Pack's content. Included in those terms was the line (possibly paraphrased - I don't have the exact wording in front of me) "at every character reset AND on commercial release". That wording clearly defines commercial release as not only being (potentially) distinct from a character reset, but ALSO as being - whether it's a reset or not - a point at which all Merc Pack gear is "credited in full". That being said, I agree with you for the most part on what you want to have happen. In essence, since anyone who's used their Merc Pack Booster still has the SP it provided, they arguably still have the Booster itself. It's a grey area, imo, and leaves some room for argument. I don't think the Booster should be given back unless the player is willing to have a character reset along with it. The same thing applies with Aurum purchases using the Merc Pack's provided Aurum. If you bought Boosters, you still have the Booster, therefore you still have the benefit provided by that Aurum's use. If you want that Aurum back, it's reasonable to see your character reset in order to do that. Any BPO Merc Pack items that were assigned to a character then deleted when the character was terminated should be credited back into the player's account to be assigned to a new character. Any BPC items that came with the Merc Pack should be credited back to the player up to the number included in the Merc Pack (or however many copies of the Merc Pack that player purchased). Any Aurum spent by the player on something OTHER than a Booster should be credited back to the player, and the AUR items the player purchased should be returned to the store (unless destroyed). If you want to use the Boosters you already used, go ahead. But you have to give up the SP that you earned with them. To me, that's a fair solution.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2185	Posted - 2013.03.28 23:31:00 - [5] - Quote Altina McAlterson wrote: What about the part that you can't be "credited in full" for something you currently posses? You know the part about none of the words on that page equal "get an additional one at no cost"? EDIT:I'm sorry, I have to ask. Seriously. Real talk. When you bought the merc pack months and months ago you knew you were going to get two of them for the price of one? So you're not reading what I'm saying? No, we don't get to keep the originally-issued Merc Pack gear (or what's left of it) AND get a new Merc Pack on top of that when the game goes live. But yes, we ARE entitled to have all the Merc Pack content credited in full, as specified at the time of purchase. If I still have my Dragonfly suit, I don't get 2. I either keep the one I already have, or I get it reset, losing the existing one in exchange for a new one (which would allow me to assign it to another character if I've changed my mind about which of my alts I want to use it with). If I terminated a character and deleted my Dragonfly, I should be issued a new one. If I still have all 50 of my HK4Ms, I don't now have 100, I either keep them on the character they're assigned to, or get them reset as with the Dragonfly. If I have 20 of them left, I get them reset back to 50. I don't have 70. The only part where this gets messy is with Boosters, and as I've already said, there's a valid argument saying we still technically have those, and the difficulty of reclaiming them means it's reasonable for CCP to reset any Merc Pack content EXCEPT Boosters - and include Boosters purchased with Merc Pack Aurum in that.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2190	Posted - 2013.03.29 00:48:00 - [6] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: The only part where this gets messy is with Boosters, and as I've already said, there's a valid argument saying we still technically have those, and the difficulty of reclaiming them means it's reasonable for CCP to reset any Merc Pack content EXCEPT Boosters - and include Boosters purchased with Merc Pack Aurum in that. The boosters can be substituted for something of equal value though, in this case the SP they got for using the booster in the first place. As long as they keep that, then the agreement would technically be fulfilled right? Actually, any item can be substituted for "an equivalent" item" on release or any reset. And yes, the SP is a reasonable equivalent. Well spotted! +1 I still think it's reasonable for people to expect their HK4Ms, etc. to be topped back up though. And for someone (even though it was stupid if they did) who deleted a character with the Toxin and/or Dragonfly to get those Blueprint items back.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2193	Posted - 2013.03.29 01:02:00 - [7] - Quote Altina McAlterson wrote: Seems like the forums ate my post. Other people have already raised all my points but I just want to apologize to Garrett. Too many threads got blurry and I didn't realize you were the one saying to reimburse it all back to the original value only, my bad. No worries. With all the threads about this, it's a bit of a confusing mess to try and follow. I've agreed with a lot of what you're saying, and I get that some of what I said wasn't as clear as it should have been. Also, thank you for spelling my name right. Most people forget the second "t"
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2204	Posted - 2013.03.29 19:50:00 - [8] - Quote Ludvig Enraga wrote: "Credited in full" upon release to me means - yes, the second of each: the AUR, booster and the other stuff. I don't see how CCP can give you the uplinks and militia SG as part of this 'credited in full' but not the booster. People who say that the extra SP that ppl carry around instead of the booster is an equivalent of the booster, therefore there should not be another booster given, would then have to extend their logic and accept that all those other consummable items are in fact still 'with the player' because they were used to play matches and resulted in accrued SP. And if so, nothing should be 'credited in full' upon release. The agreement, on the other hand, stipulates that the merc pack will be 'credited in full' To people who say that Merc pack never promised 'the same thing being given tiwce' are wrong because I got my full merc pack already 3 times this beta with each reset. And the agreement clearly states that official release will be treated as a reset as far as Merc pack is concerned; so yes, the full pack much be given another time. So 4 total packs, in my case, with 2 of them having a lasting benefit. It can be argued that CCP only promised the items OR AN EQUIVALENT when crediting you in full. So we MUST get something that's at least an approximation of the Dragonfly Scout, but maybe they will change it to be a Caldari small frame suit instead. And we MUST get 50 HK4M Shotguns, or something with equivalent capabilities. And we MUST get the 30-day Booster.... OR SOMETHING EQUIVALENT. Something equivalent to a 30 day booster like, for example, 30 days worth of boosted SP that we already have, so they don't need to re-credit that because we already have it. Crediting the Merc Pack in full on release means they have to replace anything that's gone, NOT that they have to give us more on top of what we still have left over. If you used the Booster, you still have the SP which is an appropriate equivalent to a Booster, so you're not actually losing something by not getting it credited back. If your HK4M Shotguns all got blown up, you DON'T still have them, AND you don't still have any equivalent to them. If you accidentally deleted your Dragonfly suit or Toxin with a character they were assigned to, then you DON'T still have those items or an equivalent of them
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2205	Posted - 2013.03.29 20:53:00 - [9] - Quote Johnny Guilt wrote: i cant wait for CCP to pull the "Welcome to New eden" on these packs player already used,Their probably not going to do anything seeing as their dancing around the subject Considering there's solid ground for a legal case to be brought against them if they do nothing, I'm pretty sure they're working on a solution. But at the same time, considering the "or an equivalent" part of the equation, there's still solid ground for them to refuse refunds of Boosters, including AUR Boosters (citing the argument that you still have the result of - and therefore the value of - the Booster purchased).
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2214	Posted - 2013.03.30 01:58:00 - [10] - Quote Altina McAlterson wrote: Trust and principle? Yea, and the American Civil War was about State's rights. They have said along that plans will change. We signed legal documents stating we knew things would change. Then things changed and now everybody's all pissed off and demanding free stuff. What do you want them say about it? We all knew things would change. That merc pack was guaranteed to survive all the resets. You still have it, right? End of discussion. All this false indignation is because there's a possibility of free stuff due to careless language. We get pissed when they don't tell us enough about what's going on. Then when they do tell us things, even though we promised that we understood it could all change at any time, we all get so outraged that they've violated out trust. Blow me. They were stupid for bringing real money in to this but we were all stupid for spending it. That Merc Pack was guaranteed to survive all resets AND Commercial Release, regardless of whether or not Commercial Release is another reset. And no, we don't all still have the ENTIRE contents of our Merc Packs. Plenty of us have used some of our HK4M Shotguns, or the Myofibril Stimulants, or Fused Locus Grenades. Some have even managed to - accidentally or with the full knowledge that they would be restored on Commercial Release - delete the Dragonfly or Toxin Blueprints. Unless CCP credit those back - AS AGREED - they aren't living up to their legal obligations. For my personal part, this isn't a huge issue, since I so rarely use these items anyway, but for those who do, and those who have deleted Blueprint items, it's important, and it needs to be addressed.

Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2220	Posted - 2013.03.30 05:27:00 - [11] - Quote Ignoble Son wrote: I put all that hard work and effort into my post and all I got was one lousy like from you guys. No replies no pats on the back? I feel robbed. I gave 2 likes, 1 on each post. And it's basically a better-worded version of about half what I've been saying across at least 4 threads on the topic, so I already agreed with you before you said it.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2221	Posted - 2013.03.30 06:27:00 - [12] - Quote Tyrin Tonious wrote: Sadly people don't understand that with the beta legal binding contract we are all still under the "subject to chante" until the "Commercial Release", this can and will indeed change, unfortunately it did for the Merc Pack. I'm sorry, but the beta terms of use "subject to change" clause doesn't apply to the purchase agreement under which the Merc Pack was bought, which is a totally separate agreement and specifies - WITHOUT any such "unless we decide not to" clause - that there will be a full credit of the contents of the Merc Pack on commercial release. This argument doesn't apply here. And that fact has already been covered more than once in this thread.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2222	Posted - 2013.03.30 07:08:00 - [13] - Quote Tyrin Tonious wrote: It does when the terms within the beta contract claims rights to all within and if Dev so determine to change something, they can. I understand, it is bad practice to do such a thing with actual hard earned real world dollars are used, but this is the reality of things. Point me to the Terms of Use of the Open Beta if you think I'm wrong, I will read it over and then apologize if I was in fact wrong. Until then, in the games current stage, CCP reserves even the right to purchased "Packs". Difference is, they can't take away the Aurum already provided, nore the items, since they were already provided. A reset though, since it was stated that it would happen with resets, must also imply that with a commercial release, there would be another reset. People just now was another 40k Aurum free. Went all off the walls when they saw the "no more reset" and got their panties wet while thinking oh... free SP then in a twist when they started thinking about "what if" the Aurum reset was in order with an SP reset... They can legally change anything that occurs WITHIN the beta. They CAN'T change an agreement made on purchase of the Merc Pack that exists OUTSIDE of the beta conditions. That isn't subject to the terms of use that are relevant to content within the beta. They're legally bound, regardless of anything agreed to within the beta's terms of use, to provide the product as agreed when we purchased the Merc Pack. Anything else is legally actionable as false advertising at the very least and could potentially be treated as a fraud case. The purchase agreement made between CCP and the customers buying the Merc Pack before the change in wording is entirely independent of the beta terms of use, and they're legally required to honour that agreement, which includes the product description as it stood AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE. EDIT: And in that agreement, it wasn't just stated that we'd get our gear credited back at every reset. It was every reset AND AT COMMERCIAL RELEASE. Not "every reset including commercial release" but "every reset AND commercial release".
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2222	Posted - 2013.03.30 07:42:00 - [14] - Quote Rusticuls wrote: I hope CCP has stats on each characters SP totals and how much SP was earned through boosters, that way if they have to do a AUR refund on Merc packs they can just respec each character and take away all 'booster SP'. Or, as people have also explained as an option, they could take the "or an equivalent item" portion and explain that the SP you've already boosted is still on your account, and they aren't required to credit you back something you still have.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2223	Posted - 2013.03.30 08:06:00 - [15] - Quote Tyrin Tonious wrote: Oh well, losing case. Doesn't matter what CCP does, or anyone say for that matter. I hope you find what you're searching for. You not feel complete without it. If CCP honors it regardless of standing, great, I feel happy for you all. I don't care either way, I just don't want my SP reset, especially if the reason is because of people who want "their" Aurum You've obviously either skipped most of the thread, or only skim-read chunks of it. I'm openly saying I DON'T want a forced SP reset for all players, and it's clear that neither does CCP, but I'm happy for anyone who demands their Boosters back to be told "you can have it if you opt in for a reset of your SP", and to explain that the booster-enhanced SP they already have is a suitable "equivalent" to the Booster they're entitled to. Any Boosters that were purchased with Merc Pack Aurum from this time period (or from a store which still uses the out-of-date product description) would also come under the same terms. You get back all your other Aurum from the Merc Pack, but lose any AUR-bought items you still have. That would be fair, and would honour the intent of the agreement made between the players and CCP when we purchased the Merc Pack.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2223	Posted - 2013.03.30 08:14:00 - [16] - Quote Ignoble Son wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Rusticuls wrote: I hope CCP has stats on each characters SP totals and how much SP was earned through boosters, that way if they have to do a AUR refund on Merc packs they can just respec each character and take away all 'booster SP'. Or, as people have also explained as an option, they could take the "or an equivalent item" portion and explain that the SP you've already boosted is still on your account, and they aren't required to credit you back something you still have. I highly doubt that this would hold up in court. As the literature clearly refers to the "Mercenary Pack" and "items" contained there in, and SP does not qualify as either and is most assuredly not "of the same value" when one considers that the consumer could have frivolously used them under the impression the they would be credited back to they account. "DUST 514 Mercenary Pack will be credited in full to your in-game DUST 514 account after each character reset and for the commercial release. CCP cannot guarantee all items will be identical and reserves the right to substitute items of similar value. No other form of refund is permitted." Thanks for someone finally providing the exact wording of that part here. I don't have it on hand myself. And for something whose only purpose and use is to increase your earned SP, then it logically follows that the already-boosted SP is equivalent to an item which ends up as no more than that extra SP you still have from using it. It's also fair, given the lack of definitive statements to the contrary, for CCP to offer a new 30-day Booster, but only if you opt in for a full SP reset to get it. They've said they don't intend to reset player SP except in a "catastrophe", which this Merc Pack issue has the potential to become.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2223	Posted - 2013.03.30 08:33:00 - [17] - Quote Tyrin Tonious wrote: Ignoble Son wrote: I highly doubt that this would hold up in court. As the literature clearly refers to the "Mercenary Pack" and "items" contained there in, and SP does not qualify as either and is most assuredly not "of the same value"when one considers that the consumer could have frivolously used them under the impression the they would be credited back to their account. "DUST 514 Mercenary Pack will be credited in full to your in-game DUST 514 account after each character reset and for the commercial release.CCP cannot guarantee all items will be identical and reserves the right to substitute items of similar value. No other form of refund is permitted." There's your answer Garret, yes, I can see how it can be confusing though. But as I read this, I look at it as for every character reset and commercial release (another reset). However, through this, it is telling me that if there is ever a reset, that it will be refunded, the final reset being the Commercial Release. Yes, maybe it could have been worded differently, but still... It specifically says "after each character reset AND commercial release". Like I said earlier, it SHOULD have been "including commercial release" so that the reset of Merc Pack content is only dependent on a reset, and if one isn't happening on commercial release, that condition is negated. Because of the wording chosen, it means that the Merc Pack contents must be credited back - OR an appropriate equivalent provided - on commercial release, whether that commercial release includes a character reset or not. EDIT: Also, Garrett. Double "t". Please?
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2223	Posted - 2013.03.30 08:58:00 - [18] - Quote Ignoble Son wrote: The only way for CCP to move forward with this mater and get what they "may" have intended to obtain is to offer an option to opt out of a reset, with the condition that anyone who opts out sign a waver releasing them from the terms and conditions of the Mercenary Pack. But as I have said before this is highly unethical. Unless you consider the possibilities of resetting SP fully or partially, or a reset of everything except Boosters, with maybe the option of an "opt out" where you just keep what you currently have if you're fine with that current state of your Merc Pack content.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2246	Posted - 2013.03.31 00:16:00 - [19] - Quote Altina McAlterson wrote: And CCP hasn't broken any promises about the Merc Pack. +1 to you (I've been doing that on a lot of your posts on this topic), but this part needs looking at. CCP hasn't broken any promises about the Merc Pack. But - and it's a big "but" - there's plenty of reason to believe they WILL break promises that are made about the Merc Pack. Many people with the Pack have spammed the use of gear included in the pack under the understanding that it'll be reset on commercial release. Those people are entitled, legally, to a reset of their Merc Pack as promised. Some people may have basically thrown away their Booster by using it and only really taking advantage for the first week, and thought it was fine because they'll get it reset on commercial release. Those people are also entitled to a reset of their Merc Pack as promised.