DUST Search - I'm lost. Why do people want Merc Pack refunds?

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

Ignoble Son wrote:

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

Rusticuls wrote:

I hope CCP has stats on each characters SP totals and how much SP was earned through boosters, that way if they have to do a AUR refund on Merc packs they can just respec each character and take away all 'booster SP'.

Or, as people have also explained as an option, they could take the "or an equivalent item" portion and explain that the SP you've already boosted is still on your account, and they aren't required to credit you back something you still have.

I highly doubt that this would hold up in court. As the literature clearly refers to the "Mercenary Pack" and "items" contained there in, and SP does not qualify as either and is most assuredly not "of the same value" when one considers that the consumer could have frivolously used them under the impression the they would be credited back to they account.

"DUST 514 Mercenary Pack will be credited in full to your in-game DUST 514 account after each character reset and for the commercial release. CCP cannot guarantee all items will be identical and reserves the right to substitute items of similar value. No other form of refund is permitted."

And for something whose only purpose and use is to increase your earned SP, then it logically follows that the already-boosted SP is equivalent to an item which ends up as no more than that extra SP you still have from using it. It's also fair, given the lack of definitive statements to the contrary, for CCP to offer a new 30-day Booster, but only if you opt in for a full SP reset to get it. They've said they don't intend to reset player SP except in a "catastrophe", which this Merc Pack issue has the potential to become.


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Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 114	Posted - 2013.03.30 01:09:00 - [1] - Quote Alright... cracks nucleus ...amateur hour is over. Time to get down to brass tacks with this subject (this is truly a snafu of the first magnitude). Let's do some ethics (hope you packed a lunch): First, it is necessary is for us to CLEARLY define the terminology that was used, and is currently under debate now - in as far as, how it may have -ábeen defined by the consumer, as well as, how CCP may have intended it to be defined, both in light of the actual literal interpretations of said terms. -áTerms currently under debate: GÇó Mercenary Pack GÇó Credited in full GÇó Character reset GÇó Commercial release "...Mercenary Pack will be credited in full to your in-game DUST 514 account after each character reset AND for the commercial release." I am, of course, assuming that the above quote is accurate. "Mercenary pack" is easy. We all know what it is and what it contains. "Credited in full", like above, is also VERY clear. "Character reset", now here is we're we star to run into some problems. What exactly is a character reset (in as far as, both the paying customer and CCP may have defined it). "Commercial release", and again we run into the same problem as above: what exactly does a "commercial release" Intel? Let's explore the contested terms. 1. Character reset: As a consumer, there are two ways to interpret this phrase: 1. Singular: "my character will be reset". This excludes the necessity for the consumer to concern themselves with any other consumer who may have purchased the "Mercenary Pack". In essence, in this interpretation, the consumers purchase occurred in a vacuum. 2. Plural: "all consumers are subject (SUBJECT not entitled) to a reset when it occurs. In this interpretation, the consumer is buying the "Mercenary Pack" with the understanding that the affect, "character reset" insinuates, is as follows: when a character reset occurs, it will affect all consumers. So, which one is it? Before we delve any deeper into this, let's take the following scenario under consideration: During the last character reset (just prior to the open beta launch) if it had been optional, at that time (during that character reset) to opt out of the reset, would this have been desirable to anyone? Speaking from my own perspective, the answer is yes, and I am quite certain that there are many others out there who share sentiment. The reason for this is because I was quite satisfied with what I had, to that point, accomplished with my character. But would this have been fair to the other consumers that were not satisfied? As so many people are so fond of saying, this is a beta, and as such, "a work in progress", an unfinished product subject to change. Now can the consumer be held financial responsible for the purchase of a product that is subject to change? Take the following as an example: I walk into a grocery store to which it took me two months to drive to (the only grocery store on the planet infact). I take an apple from the shelf, and take it to the teller in order to purchase it. As the teller swipes the apple across the scanner, to ring up the sale, through some act of magic, the apple suddenly turns into an orange. Is it still my responsibility to purchase the orange? The answer is, most emphatically, no. Now let's say that there are ten people at the teller with me (all purcasing apples) yet mine is the only one that keeps tuning into an orange. Befuddled, I look around in bewilderment and by chance happen to spot a man in a dress shirt and tie waving a wand everytime the teller tries to scan the apple. He is wearing a name tag, it says: "CCP owner/manager". The man notices me noticing him and promptly approaches me, and the following conversation ensues: CCP: Hello sir. My name is CCP, I'm the owner. What seems to be the problem? Bob, the unsatisfied customer: Well, quite frankly I'm trying to buy an apply but it keeps turning into an orange. CCP: Ahh, i see. We have had this problem happen before. I am afraid that you will have to return to you're place of residence, obtaine a notarized afidavid stating that you have returned to your please of residence, and the return to CCP Mart, at which time, we here a CCP Mart garantees that the issue will be resolved. Bob, the unsatisfied customer: but it took me two months to drive to CCP Mart, what about the time and effort I spent to get here? CCP: I am quite sorry sir. That is CCP Mart policy. I'll leave it up to your imagination to figure out what bobs reaction is at that point. So, as we should all plainly be able to see, an option to opt out of a reset is not an ethical/fair one, because all of those satisfied with the game get to continue on being satisfied with the game while those who are not satisfied, loose an irreplaceable set of commodities: time and effort. Ok, that takes care of the first contested term. Let's move on to the next: 2. Commercial release: Legally speaking, this is VERY specific, as well as, VERY binding and for good reason: because it removes consumer responsibility to act responsibly with their purchases until CCP make the consumer aware the the property has been "commercially released" Regardless of what CCP had intended to mean by "commercial release" is irrelevant. The fact is that the two terms "commercial release" and reset are not connected in any way, no matter how much CCP or any one else, for that mater, wants them to be. By this term, CCP is legally obligated to credit the items in question to any consumer that purchased a Mercenary Pack. {continued>>>
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 114	Posted - 2013.03.30 01:10:00 - [2] - Quote The simple fact is that CCP should never have included "commercial if that is not what the were intending to do. it is miss leading in the extreme, and gives those who were mislead by it a valid argument: I was not responsible with my money because CCP assured me that I did not have to be until the "commercial release". There is, legally, only three options that CCP can pursue: 1. Reset all player accounts upon-ácommercial release This is an option that neither the majority of the player base nor CCP themselves want. I can tell you personall that, if my lifetime skill points is reset to zero again, I will no longer be playing this game, and I am sure that there are many others out there who would feel the same, which is the reason why CCP does not desire this option ether. 2. CCP can offer to reset the accounts of any one who wants a Mercenary Pack credit, however, this is entirely unethical toward those who were genuinely mislead by the language of the purchase contract. If this is the path CCP chooses, I will not choose to have my character reset, but neither will I be leaving the game. 3. CCP can take it on the chin like a real man, cut their losses and give out the credits to every one who bought a Mercinary Pack, as to HONOR the original agreement. I would actually consider it a reward to those who helped CCP develop their game in beta. This seems reasonable, and was, in all honesty, what I interpreted this thing to mean when CCP announced that there will be no further "character resets". And that's my 20 cents worth. Hope this all in some way helped this debacle to get resolved in a desirable fashion that is agreeable to all parties involved.
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 116	Posted - 2013.03.30 01:56:00 - [3] - Quote Altina McAlterson wrote: Trust and principle? Yea, and the American Civil War was about State's rights. They have said along that plans will change. We signed legal documents stating we knew things would change. Then things changed and now everybody's all pissed off and demanding free stuff. What do you want them say about it? We all knew things would change. That merc pack was guaranteed to survive all the resets. You still have it, right? End of discussion. All this false indignation is because there's a possibility of free stuff due to careless language.-á We get pissed when they don't tell us enough about what's going on. Then when they do tell us things, even though we promised that we understood it could all change at any time, we all get so outraged that they've violated out trust. Blow me. They were stupid for bringing real money in to this but we were all stupid for spending it. The "legally documents" that you are referring to have absolutely nothing to do with the contract we entered into when when we bought the Mercenary Pack. CCP is legally obligated to make a credit, to all of those who have purchased a Mercenary Pack, upon release. End of story. The question is: will they make an ethical choise or an unethical choise.
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 116	Posted - 2013.03.30 04:33:00 - [4] - Quote I put all that hard work and effort into my post and all I got was one lousy like from you guys. No replies no pats on the back? I feel robbed.
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 118	Posted - 2013.03.30 05:06:00 - [5] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Ignoble Son wrote: I put all that hard work and effort into my post and all I got was one lousy like from you guys. No replies no pats on the back? I feel robbed. Here, +2 just for being so long. Well at least somebody loves me.
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 118	Posted - 2013.03.30 08:07:00 - [6] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Rusticuls wrote: I hope CCP has stats on each characters SP totals and how much SP was earned through boosters, that way if they have to do a AUR refund on Merc packs they can just respec each character and take away all 'booster SP'. Or, as people have also explained as an option, they could take the "or an equivalent item" portion and explain that the SP you've already boosted is still on your account, and they aren't required to credit you back something you still have. I highly doubt that this would hold up in court. As the literature clearly refers to the "Mercenary Pack" and "items" contained there in, and SP does not qualify as either and is most assuredly of "of the same value" when one considers that the consumer could have frivolously used them under the impression the they would be credited back to they account. "DUST 514 Mercenary Pack will be credited in full to your in-game DUST 514 account after each character reset and for the commercial release. CCP cannot guarantee all items will be identical and reserves the right to substitute items of similar value. No other form of refund is permitted."
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 119	Posted - 2013.03.30 08:35:00 - [7] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Ignoble Son wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Rusticuls wrote: I hope CCP has stats on each characters SP totals and how much SP was earned through boosters, that way if they have to do a AUR refund on Merc packs they can just respec each character and take away all 'booster SP'. Or, as people have also explained as an option, they could take the "or an equivalent item" portion and explain that the SP you've already boosted is still on your account, and they aren't required to credit you back something you still have. I highly doubt that this would hold up in court. As the literature clearly refers to the "Mercenary Pack" and "items" contained there in, and SP does not qualify as either and is most assuredly not "of the same value" when one considers that the consumer could have frivolously used them under the impression the they would be credited back to they account. "DUST 514 Mercenary Pack will be credited in full to your in-game DUST 514 account after each character reset and for the commercial release. CCP cannot guarantee all items will be identical and reserves the right to substitute items of similar value. No other form of refund is permitted." And for something whose only purpose and use is to increase your earned SP, then it logically follows that the already-boosted SP is equivalent to an item which ends up as no more than that extra SP you still have from using it. It's also fair, given the lack of definitive statements to the contrary, for CCP to offer a new 30-day Booster, but only if you opt in for a full SP reset to get it. They've said they don't intend to reset player SP except in a "catastrophe", which this Merc Pack issue has the potential to become. As I said, the issue her is the potential frivolous use of the items under the impression that the items would be credited back. The consumer may have been expecting to keep them as collector items, or may have been planing to sell them on the open market, at an enormous increase in value equivalent in ISK, which would mean that the potential SP gained from the the items in the Merc Pack could in fact have been much greater, and this includes the auram as well. It could just as easily been frivolously spent.
Ignoble Son 3dge of D4rkness SoulWing Alliance 119	Posted - 2013.03.30 08:50:00 - [8] - Quote The only way for CCP to move forward with this mater and get what they "may" have intended to obtain is to offer an option to opt out of a reset, with the condition that anyone who opts out sign a waver releasing them from the terms and conditions of the Mercenary Pack. But as I have said before this is highly unethical.