Its nice to see but i still think it's not an issue the community should be addressing. CCP will do it when the time is right and all this talk of multiple councils is just plain silly not to mention that a lot of this "CPM" was in place before the vast majority of the community was even aware of the CPM movement.

Unfortunately, hopefully the new direction will get you guys more involved. Maybe if we get enough posts we can convince Kain and others to stop trying to pre-electoral the group and focus more on the community.

That's a little unreasonable, I've spoken to Kain at length about this subject recently, quite a bit today too as i'm obviously kicking the hornets nest somewhat today but still, i don't get the impression that he's trying to pre-elect anything at all and i'm sure he'll say that himself and be able to prove it i hope.

I firmly believe that it's too early right now and that more than a single unified council is too much, why would we need 2 electoral bodys?

That's just utter bollocks. Even if there's more of us than EVE players if there's only a single seat or even 3 for Dust players we won't out number them or whatever, there won't ever be a situation where there's more Dust voices on the CSM than EVE, that's just silly and the actual chances of that are tiny.

Especially with the new STV system!

Not to mention what i posted in Hunter Blakes thread about their only being a very small percentage of the community that will be able to vote Dust side assuming you have to pay for the privilege let along an even smaller percentage of the community that gives a **** about the politics and what goes on forumside/metagaming.

Even being seen as a legit community body means nothing unless CCP take steps to even allow Dust to have it's own council which i highly doubt they will simply from a cost point of view.

To fly 7 people to shanghai for 3 weeks a year and keep them their and then send them to iceland to meet the CSM is a massive expense and will take a lot of merc packs sold to even make it viable. It's a long ways off.

So here is the truth of what this all is.

"lets create rules to get ourselves elected to it"

For us in the community to even think about taking you seriously you need to list everyone to participated. Then they need to come into this thread and tell us they are doing this to run for a position.

I know some people in it and they have every intention of running for a spot. Nothnig like writing the election laws to get yourself elected.

I read the OP and until you can be seen as legit in the eyes of the community this is pointless.

/thread

TL; DR

So here is the truth of what this all is.

"lets create rules to get ourselves elected to it"

For us in the community to even think about taking you seriously you need to list everyone to participated. Then they need to come into this thread and tell us they are doing this to run for a position.

I know some people in it and they have every intention of running for a spot. Nothnig like writing the election laws to get yourself elected.

I read the OP and until you can be seen as legit in the eyes of the community this is pointless.

/thread

Regardless of the intentions, anything resembling an advisory board should only be created by CCP when they feel the time is appropriate, if at all. If CCP felt that such an organization was necessary at this time, there already be one.

edit: whoops, put in an extra word

Regardless of the intentions, anything resembling an advisory board should only be created by CCP when they feel the time is appropriate, if at all. If CCP felt that such an organization was necessary at this time, there already be one.

edit: whoops, put in an extra word

This is kind of my view of the whole thing as well. I'd rather CCP dictate what they want the group to be and do, because the community "volunteers" who are spearheading this thing, I can't see doing it as more than trying to make it so they're included in the official one.

Can we plz to have a CPM whose political struggles (even to the point of naming specific parties but not others, which seems sloppily tactical) don't leak through into their introduction to the forum?

Having a schism in your organisation which can be expressed by Capitalised Titles and advertising the failure to agree on anything makes the DUST CPM seem about as much of a cohesive entity as the #dust514 channel.

By your intro post (was this the result of discussion with the rest of the group?) it seems less like an emergent discussion group and more like an attempt at asserting and advertising the positions of individual egos in the community (not to cast any aspersions on the membership, I'm sure some are involved because they're optimistic about the potential the idea has).

I'm interested because I'd like to be involved in discussions about the development of the game but I'm sceptical about the current function and future usefulness of this particular attempt.

That's a little unreasonable, I've spoken to Kain at length about this subject recently, quite a bit today too as i'm obviously kicking the hornets nest somewhat today but still, i don't get the impression that he's trying to pre-elect anything at all and i'm sure he'll say that himself and be able to prove it i hope.

I firmly believe that it's too early right now and that more than a single unified council is too much, why would we need 2 electoral bodys?

Questions that randoms who come across this thread might have, which I don't feel have been fully covered in the OP.

• What does CPM stand for?
• Disregarding contested elements, what is the group's stated function?
• Things like discussions over corp roles in DUST. If you're not an officially recognised group, what are these discussions but the same sort of speculation as already takes place on the forums and in the main IRC?
• Why should any of you be trusted with the development of the future council?

I've been the the IRC often recently, and I really can't say that I have even the most remote idea of who is members of this "CPM", and honestly, the is fine by me since that means I have no biased pre-conceptions for or against any of you (not that I am not for neutrality even at my own expense). I do have to say one thing...

If you guys want to re-invent your little club, how about you start by giving yourselves a name that actually doesn't feel so constrained and unoriginal. CPM (Council of Planetary Management), to me sounds very much like a rip-off name, as if it didn't take 3 second to come up with based on the idea already established by its inspiring organization, the CSM. Once you get past that, your reinvention might actually have some meaning, because you would actually look to have a name that actually makes you feel like you put effort into coming up with.

So, you get yourselves called "CPM", but what happens if (when?) DUST mercs suddenly start going to battle outside of planets (there's a huge thread with ideas involving battling inside space ships, space stations, wormhole space, etc)? Suddenly your name's meaning is worth nothing. There's also the fact that CSM as it stands covers pretty much planet interaction.

I am pretty sure I've said this over at IRC, but I honestly feel that this needs repeating. More over, I'm not saying this just because I don't like the name and all that, I also say it because I'd like to think from a lore point of view, and "lore" names that are different are far easier to remember.

I remember mentioning that, instead of using initialisms for the DUST council, one could use Acronyms. One could use an acronym that can be read as a one-syllable word (PIE) or even two syllables (CONCORD). I remember mentioning a few of these, altho somewhat in jest, but also with more emphasis on the individual rather than the whole...

MACH (Military/Mercenary Association of Cloned Humans) - This name is all about the DUST clone, their rules of engagement and the standardization of their equipment, treatment among other things. It's also a pun on the speed measures unit, which was meant as a representation of how fast I envisioned this group to be in acting upon the needs of those they sought to represent. Finally, it's a one-syllable word that rolls off the tongue, simple and elegant.

But that's just an example, and not necessarily something that you should consider ultimately, but would actually earn my respect if you do...

As for the actual topic...

I really don't care if the CSM and this organization end up being one entity or if they end up being two separate ones. I just want to have CCP understand that when something is wrong or inapropriate, it needs to be changed for the better.

AS for matters of election... well... that's not really for you or me to decide I guess. I'm certain CCP can figure this one out thmselves. But I think there has to be at least some discussion in finding ways to prevent "alt stacking" for council votes on DUST positions.

Who the hell is Cpt Awesome anyway and why have i never heard of him?...

Heh the self appointed leaders of dust requirement to rule: know how to use IRC and slap people with trout.

It all resembles a pack of old church hags getting together and electing a president of the decoration committee, oh I do hope Martha's roses are ready for Berthas funeral this saturday.... oh I know.

Oh I know

I'm in this channel, but I don't consider myself a part of this. I'm just keeping an eye on things.

(Because I'm a total information monger)


Honestly? I think that the gun has been jumped on this thing time and again.

When you ask them why they are there and what they are doing, the 3-4 people directly involved will all give you completely different answers. As admirable as Ironwolf's efforts are to keep the forums up to speed.. There's really nothing to bring people up to speed with until you even know what your group is even about.

There's been a half dozen posts and threads mentioning the CPM before now, and pretty much all of them painted it in a completely different picture than the last.


I originally joined the channel because I was told the goal was to allow people who wanted to establish themselves in the community, to help them get known if they were to ever run for CSM or whatever and I was curious who'd show up even if I had my doubts about its success. (Also to log everything they say, because I'm an infomonger)

Later, it was being spread that the purpose was to actually eventually become the official CSM.

Also being said, was that is was just a place for serious talks without the usual banter/trolling of the standard IRC channel to give higher quality feedback.



I'm still not entirely convinced the people involved in this have agreed on what they're even doing, so IMO it's far too early to be making a post like this.

I find that naming yourselves after the CSM gives me an impression of feigned legitimacy which is hard to look past.

Your raison d'+¬tre appears to be "helping to establish an actual council in the future"; a goal which could be satisfied just as well without wearing the council costume or declaring yourselves pre-council.

Starting a thread to say "we've established a group but we can't agree on what our purpose is" suggests that you're doing things backwards. The correct order of activities is to find like-minded fellows who share your aims and THEN start a group...

Sustaining an organisation at the cost of that organisation's cause is already a trap which a group can fall into. This seems even more of a danger when that organisation exists for its own sake before it even has a cause.

The guy who corralled me and others into the channel, I don't think he plays much though due to his job, however so far hes building a website and is doing a decent job of it and you can basically call him the founder and one of the more reserved voices of the group.

Captain Awesome is probably going to skin me for this since its a work in progress and not done.

http://cpm.neweden.co/

This idea is so premature that it didn't even make it past small talk over coffee.

Dust hasn't even finished the early stages of development as a game yet. We need massive improvements in corp management, and the state of the community before we're ready to start discussing sending a unified voice to CCP; And they would be foolish to listen to us.

Keep your trousers on and let the game get out of Beta first.

I understand where you are coming from, but Beta may end this summer.

I would rather be proactive then have a t20 incident occur to force the issue. The FPS community moves far to fast to survive something like that.

The biggest impediment to a new T20 was CCP's changes to the Internal Affairs division, not the introduction of the CSM. A better example would be the Jump Bridge nerf since that was the kind of sweeping game design mistakes we're worried about. And I'll remind you that happened at the instigation of an immature, unrepresentative, and unprepared CSM.

I understand where you are coming from, but Beta may end this summer.

I would rather be proactive then have a t20 incident occur to force the issue. The FPS community moves far to fast to survive something like that.

Proof that a bad council can be just as bad as bad developer decisions.

I would rather be proactive then have a t20 incident occur to force the issue. The FPS community moves far to fast to survive something like that.

TBH, Another t20 issue wouldn't force anything. Contrary to what some people say... The Eve CSM isn't a watchdog organization. They're a crowdsourcing feedback method. The implication of the CSM as a watchdog agency is a token PR gesture at best in response to a situation they were not really prepared to deal with. The real watchdog is CCP Interal Affairs, who now perform audits on a regular basis of all employee's activity on their dev and personal characters.. Last I heard, they full on delete any personal characters of a CCP employee if it becomes known to players that they work for CCP. (Though I'm not certain of that)


Something like t20 simply could not happen, and even if it did, CCP has systems in place to make it a relative nonissue aside from the relatively brief forum drama during which CCP says "Yeah some stuff happened, and we took action and removed all assets/gains related to whatever it was that happened, and are looking into further actions if necessary"


A stakeholder isn't meant to be a watchdog, it's meant to be a party with a direct interest in the success of a product. Implying the need for a watchdog essentially implies that CCP needs to be (or is vulnerable to being) bullied into action.

Cpt awesome needs to come to this thread and explain his actions to the community if he's the instigator behind all this.

Where are you cpt awesome? Why the silence? Come and answer my questions.

Yeah the previous voter turnouts for the CSM say anything only 10% seem to care about it at all. Most feel that its a useless organization.

There is of course the large number of alts that could suck with the population amount though however if one votes usually all the alts vote.

And this movement is laying the foundation for a bad council. Though I'm not terribly worried because CCP will ignore it for all the reasons my corpmate so eloquently stated above.

CPM is both from IRC and an ego fest and i wasnt invited in ?

Jerks !

he entire group's agenda

The entire group seems to disagree on whether it even exists and, if it does, what its agenda is.

That's true too.

Cpt awesome needs to come to this thread and explain his actions to the community if he's the instigator behind all this.

Where are you cpt awesome? Why the silence? Come and answer my questions.

ok I'm here, I'm also on IRC if you would rather talk there, but I assume here so everyone sees?

what would you like to know?

edit - still here (and on irc)

I think you're getting ahead of yourself. Who's actually interested in and working on this project then other than yourself and iron Wolf?

CCP will come to you when they are ready. If they so much as look at using any version of your paper they will have IA causing them problems and will lose respect in the community and they know this, you are jyst wasting your time

CCP will come to you when they are ready. If they so much as look at using any version of your paper they will have IA causing them problems and will lose respect in the community and they know this, you are jyst wasting your time

So it's for the community, who don't want it?

Outside of of about 6 people that is.

5. public opinion of it is that it's a bunch of people that want a cool kids club
I think if that ever happens to be true, it will fail.

It is and it has.


Your entire "endeavor" is the product of a group of people getting swelled heads and completely failing to understand the key issues with Dust's development at the moment from a community standpoint.

If you want to create a fan site and an IRC channel that produces editorials and provides a place for conversation respectively, you're completely free to do so. We call that a "news site" (themittani.com) or a "community project" (#dust514). What you're not going to be able to do is create a "Council" of anything.

It's nothing less than almost unanimous public opinion that the timing isn't right for CCP to launch a Dust equivalent of the CSM. Without a voting process, no "Council" has the public legitimacy to match that group's functionality in any capacity. Trying to do so is wasting your time.

The real Dust community could use you Captain, and the others in that channel, down in the trenches working to get CCP to realize the real issues in Dust 514. Things like the lack of persistence, lack of content, the need for a market, expanded corporate management, and a suite of other things. Instead, you're just like The Black Jackel: wasting your time trying to do something that has no chance of succeeding its "aims".


Why do you think Immobile Infantry, Subdreddit, Dust Uni, PRO, GAC, 843, Zion, and many other large Dust communities aren't represented in your project? I can answer: Because they're actually off accomplishing both in-game management and community management goals within their own organizations. With the people that they trust.


That's what you should be doing as well. Look at that list of characters. 4 Imperfects guys.


This is just an extension of IMP's persistent and barely constructive forum spam. If you want respect and you want to accomplish something in the community, go mobilize IMP's to do something worthwhile with their forum time, rather than constantly barfing onto the front page. Make a community site and post editorials and blogs. Do something actually constructive. But above all, deflate your ego and try to consult some of the facts.

When Cerebral Wolf Jr is talking sense instead of of trolling and you're not seeing it, there's something deeply wrong with your core idea.

Well what's stopping you from joining?.

The same thing stopping all the rational people from joining - better things to do with my time. It's my sincere hope that you guys can go back to your constituent groups and mobilize their community efforts. Those guys trust and know you. That's the key to actually getting your opinions expressed and conveyed to CCP in a way that makes them realize that more than 3 guys have the same opinion.

It is and it has.

I think its about time CCP weighed in on this...

Why? So you dont think their input or plans will impact your own?

If they say nothing will happen for 12 months we know, if they plan to use or ignore your 'help' you will know etc...

Or do you just plan to go ahead and do eveything even if ccp say they dont want your input?

If thats the aim why name yourself after the CSM? Is it to give the impression you've got affiliation with CCP then?

If thats all you plan to do you should rename yourself to dust home for people who think they are bitter vets.

That's probably for the best, anything with command or council etc in it will be taken as an attempt at trying to create something luke the csm.

It sounds to me like you guys are already doing what you intended to do by getting together and discussing the game.

Why do you need a name if you don't have an agenda? Why not just keep meeting, theorycrafting and talking about the game without making a forum post annointing yourselves as a council?


If you think the forum signal to noise ration is too bad to get your point across then simply email the Dust 514 team with your ideas and concerns.


***The one thing you want to avoid, IMO, is insinuating that you represent the majority community opinion in some way.

It sounds to me like you guys are already doing what you intended to do by getting together and discussing the game.

Why do you need a name if you don't have an agenda? Why not just keep meeting, theorycrafting and talking about the game without making a forum post annointing yourselves as a council?


If you think the forum signal to noise ration is too bad to get your point across then simply email the Dust 514 team with your ideas and concerns.


***The one thing you want to avoid, IMO, is insinuating that you represent the majority community opinion in some way.

I think its about time CCP weighed in on this...

It sounds to me like you guys are already doing what you intended to do by getting together and discussing the game.

Why do you need a name if you don't have an agenda? Why not just keep meeting, theorycrafting and talking about the game without making a forum post annointing yourselves as a council?


If you think the forum signal to noise ration is too bad to get your point across then simply email the Dust 514 team with your ideas and concerns.


***The one thing you want to avoid, IMO, is insinuating that you represent the majority community opinion in some way.

it's more than just a bunch of people talking about community issues, we want to build a platform everyone will want to use.

take out of game user management for an example, or a corporation website that has statistics on every corp registered on the site, (without users having to manually enter that data), membership management, forums, a home for your corporation to visit when they aren't in game.

sure a CSM / CPM can go to ccp and ask them to make those tools... but CCP is giving us crest, something that lets us do it ourselves.

that's just some of the stuff we'll be doing. Talking about political issues or in game issues is part of what we want to do, but we want this project to be the central hub to all things outside of the game. Something a forum will never be able to provide.

it's not "us" and "them", it's just us. we are providing a service and tools to ourselves, to expand the metagame :) like I said in the very first post when I decided to do something about it "I have a set of skills that the community can use, so I'm going to support it as best as I can". I'm hoping the community will eventually feel the same way and expand upon itself.

Until CCP says anything on this matter the whole 'CPM' is a pipe dream

As it is now the 'CPM' in my eyes is made up of ppl who mainly want more power and to change DUST to suit them and the corps that they represent

They may yap about things in the IRC with devs and say 'we are helping the game' when in fact it was proved that the IRC is run by an individual for ther own gain and to inflate that ego a bit more with the promise of more power later on like a seat on the CPM

Have a different view in the IRC and you get banned, or they just mute everyone so only certain questions are asked so you might aswell be banned, you have no voice if you are outside of the club

We dont even have the list of representatives in this 'CPM'

No one knows who they really are and what they stand for, they are hoping that when CCP finally decide to get involved that the 'CPM' looks organized and official enough that they all get places at the table

As it is now CCP would be best to leave it and deal with it themselves at a later date

Pretty sure EFT, EvEMon, Aura, etc.... all created by people who didn't need to attach a council name to themselves.

I get what you are doing but putting a council name to it seems unneccessary and what most of the contrarians are trying to get across to you.

Honestly it sounds like you want to run a fansite.....doesn't take an elected group or self titled group to do that. If your intentions are selfless and you provide a service to the community then please let us know when you have something other than a council name and I'm sure you will have all the support you could ever want.


Best of luck o7

it was posted a page or two back captain awsome listed all the current people in channel. There is no password and anyone reasonable is allowed in.

Just give it up now. You theory crafting from a few will never be accepted by the community.

it was posted a page or two back captain awsome listed all the current people in channel. There is no password and anyone reasonable is allowed in.

Beers perfect the example of a fan boy elitist. Its his views or nobody's views.

Hm yea i dont believe you

If you dont agree with the club you get kicked and banned from the clubhouse and its happened already a few times

Also half of that list is in some way associated with IMPS, other half is ppl i have never heard of at all and why is that? its because they dont post on the official CCP forums and a couple of other ppl are only ther to inflate ther ego and get something for themselves

So a 'Council' which happens to be run by one alliance with maybe a few ppl who are also in it for themselves with a few other names that no one has ever heard of

The 'CPM' needs shutting down and for CCP to take control of it

Hm yea i dont believe you

If you dont agree with the club you get kicked and banned from the clubhouse and its happened already a few times

Also half of that list is in some way associated with IMPS, other half is ppl i have never heard of at all and why is that? its because they dont post on the official CCP forums and a couple of other ppl are only ther to inflate ther ego and get something for themselves

So a 'Council' which happens to be run by one alliance with maybe a few ppl who are also in it for themselves with a few other names that no one has ever heard of

The 'CPM' needs shutting down and for CCP to take control of it

Proof or STFU.
Current ban lists on #dust514 channel and #dustcpm channel are empty.

you are grossly misunderstanding what's happening, read the page not just that one post, it'll clear up a lot of what you just stated.

All i needed was a list of names, that list just showed what the 'CPM' really is

luke? lurk? lark? like?