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CPM Topic : WTF is the CPM? March 3/3

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Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 351	Posted - 2013.03.05 19:49:00 - [61] - Quote next thread >.< updating!
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 773	Posted - 2013.03.05 20:00:00 - [62] - Quote I think you're getting ahead of yourself. Who's actually interested in and working on this project then other than yourself and iron Wolf?
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 351	Posted - 2013.03.05 20:17:00 - [63] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: I think you're getting ahead of yourself. Who's actually interested in and working on this project then other than yourself and iron Wolf? I'll name the people currently in the channel because these people either are for, against or have a vested interest, either way their opinion is helping shape it: me, kain, ironwolf, xplicitSoul, DeadEyesAnterie, Telc, nova, jenza, mavado, noc, rhapsodyy, Finnk (although offline, he was one of the first to join the channel) I'm hoping to get help from anyone and everyone on this so it gets done right. Rhapsodyy pointed out the CSM white paper which has some great documentation that I'm going over, and currently we are making a list of questions why we should and shouldn't as well as swot and pest analysis.
Deadeyes Anterie Crimson Ravens Talons RISE of LEGION 296	Posted - 2013.03.05 20:31:00 - [64] - Quote It seems like a lot of the community is really opposed to this idea, and I'm honestly not sure why. If you think we are plotting and scheming, or a closed group of people who think we are 'elite' join us in IRC and join our discussion. We are not leaving anyone out and want to hear as many voices as we can. Even if the group doesn't take off there is no real harm in talking about the community and game in a more focused manner. It seems like most people who are opposed to people having this discussion have no interest in the discussion themselves. They just want to make sure nobody is having it which to me seems like the less constructive path to take for the game. If your complaint is that it should happen on the forums it would be a disjointed and distracting conversation here. How long before the community who is not interested in the topics would start to just get pissed off at the 7-8 threads a week about the CPM and slightly different ideas for what the group should do ect...
XtoTheS Forgotten Militia 3	Posted - 2013.03.05 20:33:00 - [65] - Quote I can understand why some of you folks are against the idea or just do not understand. It took me a while to grasp the concept of the CPM. To start with, what other game developer has been so open armed in allowing their players to be involved in making the game better? To me it is a huge reason why Eve has been so successful for so long. This is a long term commitment and not a way to get problems fixed in a short time frame. Bringing the community together to work on issues and allowing them to be presented to CCP in an organized manner. IMO collecting issues and ideas and letting the community vote on which would be best for all of us in the long run. This is an open project and it can not be done with out hearing the negative and positives. Research can not be efficiently done wiith only hearing one side and agreeing to only one side. Compromise is always important too. In the future, trust and an unbiased opinion must be kept when making additions to the CSM white paper and wiki. The game will never be what you want it to be with out your help. The forums do provide a lot of information to the developers and a way to voice your opinion, but it is scattered. A lot of people post on the forums and posts can get pushed back a few pages in a matter of hours, lost for days, weeks if not forgotten all together. So with the CPM and you, the game can be improved on with greater contribution and accuracy.
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 773	Posted - 2013.03.05 20:42:00 - [66] - Quote CCP will come to you when they are ready. If they so much as look at using any version of your paper they will have IA causing them problems and will lose respect in the community and they know this, you are jyst wasting your time
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1150	Posted - 2013.03.05 20:45:00 - [67] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: CCP will come to you when they are ready. If they so much as look at using any version of your paper they will have IA causing them problems and will lose respect in the community and they know this, you are jyst wasting your time This. If ccp decides there is ever a need they will come up with a plan and come to the community with it. PS goons smell like old cheese
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 352	Posted - 2013.03.05 20:49:00 - [68] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: CCP will come to you when they are ready. If they so much as look at using any version of your paper they will have IA causing them problems and will lose respect in the community and they know this, you are jyst wasting your time I know CCP would come to us... I said so above, the paper I'm referring to is for me, you, everyone in the community to understand what we are trying to achieve. I didn't say it was for CCP and will always say CCP won't even take this seriously until we are something worth taking seriously. This is a video game - I thought it was all about wasting time ;) :D but on a more serious note, the oppertunity here is to create a rich platform for the community, it's not for CCP, it's for the players, and in that respect, I don't think it's time wasting for a second because I'm enjoying the opportunity to be a part of it.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2974	Posted - 2013.03.05 20:55:00 - [69] - Quote I would like to tank Captain Awsome for taking the time to post in a more consistent matter than I could have ever managed.
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 352	Posted - 2013.03.05 21:01:00 - [70] - Quote ? you said the truth in your op - that's plenty :) I got questions, opinions and a good debate out of it.

Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 352	Posted - 2013.03.05 21:54:00 - [71] - Quote I have to go in 5 minutes and don't have access to pc at home (still building it) so I will get back to you tomorrow if you have any more questions >.< I'll be in game though in about 40 minutes....
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 773	Posted - 2013.03.05 21:56:00 - [72] - Quote So it's for the community, who don't want it? Outside of of about 6 people that is.
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 352	Posted - 2013.03.05 22:04:00 - [73] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: So it's for the community, who don't want it? Outside of of about 6 people that is. a sick child doesn't like medicine, does that mean they should stop getting it? From the people in the chat room, everyone wants a cpm, but those against - say it is either too soon or want ccp (think there's a third reason but I forget out of bad memory) but non of the reasons really stood against the argument. There is no reason to wait, no reason not to try, people have said they want to run for csm / cpm / what ever - that's enough for me to help them.
Leither Yiltron KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 417	Posted - 2013.03.05 22:50:00 - [74] - Quote Captain-Awesome wrote: 5. public opinion of it is that it's a bunch of people that want a cool kids club I think if that ever happens to be true, it will fail. It is and it has. Your entire "endeavor" is the product of a group of people getting swelled heads and completely failing to understand the key issues with Dust's development at the moment from a community standpoint. If you want to create a fan site and an IRC channel that produces editorials and provides a place for conversation respectively, you're completely free to do so. We call that a "news site" (themittani.com) or a "community project" (#dust514). What you're not going to be able to do is create a "Council" of anything. It's nothing less than almost unanimous public opinion that the timing isn't right for CCP to launch a Dust equivalent of the CSM. Without a voting process, no "Council" has the public legitimacy to match that group's functionality in any capacity. Trying to do so is wasting your time. The real Dust community could use you Captain, and the others in that channel, down in the trenches working to get CCP to realize the real issues in Dust 514. Things like the lack of persistence, lack of content, the need for a market, expanded corporate management, and a suite of other things. Instead, you're just like The Black Jackel: wasting your time trying to do something that has no chance of succeeding its "aims". Why do you think Immobile Infantry, Subdreddit, Dust Uni, PRO, GAC, 843, and many other large Dust communities aren't represented in your project? I can answer: Because they're actually off accomplishing both in-game management and community management goals within their own organizations. With the people that they trust. That's what you should be doing as well. Look at that list of characters. 4 Imperfects guys. This is just an extension of IMP's persistent and barely constructive forum spam. If you want respect and you want to accomplish something in the community, go mobilize IMP's to do something worthwhile with their forum time, rather than constantly barfing onto the front page. Make a community site and post editorials and blogs. Do something actually constructive. But above all, deflate your ego and try to consult some of the facts. When Cerebral Wolf Jr is talking sense instead of of trolling and you're not seeing it, there's something deeply wrong with your core idea.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2979	Posted - 2013.03.05 23:43:00 - [75] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: Captain-Awesome wrote: 5. public opinion of it is that it's a bunch of people that want a cool kids club I think if that ever happens to be true, it will fail. It is and it has. Your entire "endeavor" is the product of a group of people getting swelled heads and completely failing to understand the key issues with Dust's development at the moment from a community standpoint. If you want to create a fan site and an IRC channel that produces editorials and provides a place for conversation respectively, you're completely free to do so. We call that a "news site" (themittani.com) or a "community project" (#dust514). What you're not going to be able to do is create a "Council" of anything. It's nothing less than almost unanimous public opinion that the timing isn't right for CCP to launch a Dust equivalent of the CSM. Without a voting process, no "Council" has the public legitimacy to match that group's functionality in any capacity. Trying to do so is wasting your time. The real Dust community could use you Captain, and the others in that channel, down in the trenches working to get CCP to realize the real issues in Dust 514. Things like the lack of persistence, lack of content, the need for a market, expanded corporate management, and a suite of other things. Instead, you're just like The Black Jackel: wasting your time trying to do something that has no chance of succeeding its "aims". Why do you think Immobile Infantry, Subdreddit, Dust Uni, PRO, GAC, 843, Zion, and many other large Dust communities aren't represented in your project? I can answer: Because they're actually off accomplishing both in-game management and community management goals within their own organizations. With the people that they trust. That's what you should be doing as well. Look at that list of characters. 4 Imperfects guys. This is just an extension of IMP's persistent and barely constructive forum spam. If you want respect and you want to accomplish something in the community, go mobilize IMP's to do something worthwhile with their forum time, rather than constantly barfing onto the front page. Make a community site and post editorials and blogs. Do something actually constructive. But above all, deflate your ego and try to consult some of the facts. When Cerebral Wolf Jr is talking sense instead of of trolling and you're not seeing it, there's something deeply wrong with your core idea. Well what's stopping you from joining? just because they're imperfects does not mean you shouldn't join. If anything they should be the reason to join because you don't want their own voice to be over yours. As one person puts it, Evil Triumphs if good people do nothing... Democracy fails when voters do nothing to stop dictators... Your opinion goes unheard if you never speak... So either nut up or shut up.
Leither Yiltron KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 417	Posted - 2013.03.05 23:50:00 - [76] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: Captain-Awesome wrote: 5. public opinion of it is that it's a bunch of people that want a cool kids club I think if that ever happens to be true, it will fail. It is and it has. Your entire "endeavor" is the product of a group of people getting swelled heads and completely failing to understand the key issues with Dust's development at the moment from a community standpoint. If you want to create a fan site and an IRC channel that produces editorials and provides a place for conversation respectively, you're completely free to do so. We call that a "news site" (themittani.com) or a "community project" (#dust514). What you're not going to be able to do is create a "Council" of anything. It's nothing less than almost unanimous public opinion that the timing isn't right for CCP to launch a Dust equivalent of the CSM. Without a voting process, no "Council" has the public legitimacy to match that group's functionality in any capacity. Trying to do so is wasting your time. The real Dust community could use you Captain, and the others in that channel, down in the trenches working to get CCP to realize the real issues in Dust 514. Things like the lack of persistence, lack of content, the need for a market, expanded corporate management, and a suite of other things. Instead, you're just like The Black Jackel: wasting your time trying to do something that has no chance of succeeding its "aims". Why do you think Immobile Infantry, Subdreddit, Dust Uni, PRO, GAC, 843, Zion, and many other large Dust communities aren't represented in your project? I can answer: Because they're actually off accomplishing both in-game management and community management goals within their own organizations. With the people that they trust. That's what you should be doing as well. Look at that list of characters. 4 Imperfects guys. This is just an extension of IMP's persistent and barely constructive forum spam. If you want respect and you want to accomplish something in the community, go mobilize IMP's to do something worthwhile with their forum time, rather than constantly barfing onto the front page. Make a community site and post editorials and blogs. Do something actually constructive. But above all, deflate your ego and try to consult some of the facts. When Cerebral Wolf Jr is talking sense instead of of trolling and you're not seeing it, there's something deeply wrong with your core idea. Well what's stopping you from joining?. The same thing stopping all the rational people from joining - better things to do with my time. It's my sincere hope that you guys can go back to your constituent groups and mobilize their community efforts. Those guys trust and know you. That's the key to actually getting your opinions expressed and conveyed to CCP in a way that makes them realize that more than 3 guys have the same opinion.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2984	Posted - 2013.03.06 01:20:00 - [77] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Leither Yiltron wrote: Captain-Awesome wrote: 5. public opinion of it is that it's a bunch of people that want a cool kids club I think if that ever happens to be true, it will fail. It is and it has. Your entire "endeavor" is the product of a group of people getting swelled heads and completely failing to understand the key issues with Dust's development at the moment from a community standpoint. If you want to create a fan site and an IRC channel that produces editorials and provides a place for conversation respectively, you're completely free to do so. We call that a "news site" (themittani.com) or a "community project" (#dust514). What you're not going to be able to do is create a "Council" of anything. It's nothing less than almost unanimous public opinion that the timing isn't right for CCP to launch a Dust equivalent of the CSM. Without a voting process, no "Council" has the public legitimacy to match that group's functionality in any capacity. Trying to do so is wasting your time. The real Dust community could use you Captain, and the others in that channel, down in the trenches working to get CCP to realize the real issues in Dust 514. Things like the lack of persistence, lack of content, the need for a market, expanded corporate management, and a suite of other things. Instead, you're just like The Black Jackel: wasting your time trying to do something that has no chance of succeeding its "aims". Why do you think Immobile Infantry, Subdreddit, Dust Uni, PRO, GAC, 843, Zion, and many other large Dust communities aren't represented in your project? I can answer: Because they're actually off accomplishing both in-game management and community management goals within their own organizations. With the people that they trust. That's what you should be doing as well. Look at that list of characters. 4 Imperfects guys. This is just an extension of IMP's persistent and barely constructive forum spam. If you want respect and you want to accomplish something in the community, go mobilize IMP's to do something worthwhile with their forum time, rather than constantly barfing onto the front page. Make a community site and post editorials and blogs. Do something actually constructive. But above all, deflate your ego and try to consult some of the facts. When Cerebral Wolf Jr is talking sense instead of of trolling and you're not seeing it, there's something deeply wrong with your core idea. Well what's stopping you from joining?. The same thing stopping all the rational people from joining - better things to do with my time. It's my sincere hope that you guys can go back to your constituent groups and mobilize their community efforts. Those guys trust and know you. That's the key to actually getting your opinions expressed and conveyed to CCP in a way that makes them realize that more than 3 guys have the same opinion. ... Sorry but the people who know me the best are you forum posters... Betamax. just babysits me and gives me things to do and test and wish no ill will towards, don't make me join another corp I will burn it to the ground.
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 352	Posted - 2013.03.06 12:22:00 - [78] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: Captain-Awesome wrote: 5. public opinion of it is that it's a bunch of people that want a cool kids club I think if that ever happens to be true, it will fail. It is and it has. How can you say that when neither you nor cerebral wolf have heard of me? (like cerebral wolf) and this has nothing to do with me, I'm just the guy who came up with this project, Ironwolf (betamax - imperfect arch rivals) has been involved in this as much as everyone else in the list, there's no hierarchy, it's everyone gets an equal say. In the channel description it reads "attitudes are left at the door." no arguing, no off topic discussions, no pissing people off in the channel, no kicks or bans - if someone steps out of line, they get muted. (and by out of line I mean offensive) There is nothing "cool" about the people helping, the project itself is a great thing, but believe me, sitting here explaining myself over and over again, is not the fun part of this, but I'm happy to do it if people are willing to join to hear it out (Is that too much to ask?) - you can join the channel and be dead set against it, but we welcome that, we want to justify the project because we are constantly refining the objective. --- Your entire "endeavor" is the product of a group of people getting swelled heads and completely failing to understand the key issues with Dust's development at the moment from a community standpoint. --- at a community stand point (outside of the game) there are just forums. That's it. The IRC chanel is not ccp run, much like the eve channels are community driven. This group of people started with just me in the channel for 3 days, then it was 3, week later it was 7, and now this week there are 12 people in the channel. What ever you make of that, people have a vested interest in this. For / against is irrelevant because both sides agree SOMETHING is better than nothing. Now, later / by us by CCP, the common ground is that it should eventually exist. All we are doing, is taking a proactive approach, to a solution everyone says they would want in some shape or form, and I think being reactive to this is unnecessary when people are blatantly willing to commit to the task at this stage. --- If you want to create a fan site and an IRC channel that produces editorials and provides a place for conversation respectively, you're completely free to do so. We call that a "news site" (themittani.com) or a "community project" (#dust514). What you're not going to be able to do is create a "Council" of anything. --- You linger on names that are of little importance to us right now. This "Council" / union / Community representatives - what ever you want to call it. Right now, knowing what it will do for the community is what's important. Yes the website will be a news site, it will also be a place for podcasts, community voting, a way to talk to the cpm channel over those relative topics, a wiki, a holding ground for documentation on the cpm.... it should be the HUB everyone goes to learn about the community representatives, or interact with them. It needs to be more than a news site, but as it stands, that's what it is until I've had time to develop it more. --- It's nothing less than almost unanimous public opinion that the timing isn't right for CCP to launch a Dust equivalent of the CSM. Without a voting process, no "Council" has the public legitimacy to match that group's functionality in any capacity. Trying to do so is wasting your time. --- ZionTCD, Betamax, Imperfects, Hellstorm - all had someone who wanted to be a community representative, but have no way of going about it other than posting on the forums and becoming "spacepopular" much like what happens in EVE. This isn't because they lack initiative, it's because there is no platform for them to speak up and get the attention of the community. ZionShad joined the mittani, Kain did OB events, Jenza did charity events - and even though none of this was to justify them running for a representative role, it shows that these people want to do something for the community, which is what a CPM/CSM should do. I completely agree, CCP should sort the CCP - CPM aspect of it all, but other than that, there is no reasaon to wait. you want --- The real Dust community could use you Captain, and the others in that channel, down in the trenches working to get CCP to realize the real issues in Dust 514. Things like the lack of persistence, lack of content, the need for a market, expanded corporate management, and a suite of other things. Instead, you're just like The Black Jackel: wasting your time trying to do something that has no chance of succeeding its "aims". --- We are helping the community get a more refined channel of communication between itself, eve and eventually (hopefully) CCP - we aren't doing this to QQ about HMG being op, scouts being slow and all that jazz. That's for the community to talk about, we are more interested in expanding the community and meta game, not the core game itself. As it stands, there is just as much wrong with this community as there is with the game, and we want to make the community a much more useful environment to the user as well as help the game come along. The primary objective for setting up this CPM is integrate the community more into the meta game. As it stands, we are just a bunch of individuals posting on a forum, with no real continuity, we should be looking at improving that and building upon it, not accepting it because that's what was put on the plate. The black jackel is wanting to be on the cpm, we are not - there's a difference. He's one of the people we're trying to help. Agree with him or not, the purpose is to make sure he has the tools get himself out there, and the tools to do it
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 352	Posted - 2013.03.06 12:23:00 - [79] - Quote continued post to come here
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1029	Posted - 2013.03.06 12:25:00 - [80] - Quote The only issue I have is if you want a player elected body then you are going to have involve CCP from the ground up. Whether elected player representation takes the form of a separate council or an expansion of the CSM to include Dust specific seats elected by Dusters I don't know. I think both could work. Personally, I feel that anyone involved in the creation of the CPM or expanded CSM should not run for elections in the first year. I think this would stamp out the feeling that people are trying to create a position for themselves to fill. I find it more important to create an avenue for a Dusters to have a community stakeholder position over time, so, while I want that representation to exist, I will not be seeking any office. I ask that the others involved is this effort do the same. Whatever we end up with needs to be an institution that last for as long as Eve has been running. A Draft Brief established over the last few days in the channel regarding player representation and community goals: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aUvFe8BSwwx-NVc3N_U1dXh_vyloWY1MTYPW7E5TTsY/edit?usp=sharing

Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 774	Posted - 2013.03.06 12:47:00 - [81] - Quote I think its about time CCP weighed in on this...
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 352	Posted - 2013.03.06 13:58:00 - [82] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: I think its about time CCP weighed in on this... why?
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 774	Posted - 2013.03.06 14:57:00 - [83] - Quote Why? So you dont think their input or plans will impact your own? If they say nothing will happen for 12 months we know, if they plan to use or ignore your 'help' you will know etc... Or do you just plan to go ahead and do eveything even if ccp say they dont want your input?
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1036	Posted - 2013.03.06 15:10:00 - [84] - Quote My personal opinion is that there is no hope of Dust elected player representation without CCP being involved from the ground up.
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 352	Posted - 2013.03.06 15:11:00 - [85] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: Why? So you dont think their input or plans will impact your own? If they say nothing will happen for 12 months we know, if they plan to use or ignore your 'help' you will know etc... Or do you just plan to go ahead and do eveything even if ccp say they dont want your input? we're not doing this to give input to ccp, so it doesn't matter if they want a connection / be affiliated or anything of the sort :) some of the things we are talking about we want these community representatives to do: Micro / Macro Improvement (How to, tutorials, wiki articles and more) Stimulating community participation (Help setup events, competitions, podcasts and more) Voicing opinions (Giving constructive feedback to debates) Giving questions and answers (polls, forum posts, q&a sessions) An unbiased third party in transactions between players (inventory, planet contracts and more) no need for ccp interaction in that :)
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 776	Posted - 2013.03.07 12:55:00 - [86] - Quote If thats the aim why name yourself after the CSM? Is it to give the impression you've got affiliation with CCP then? If thats all you plan to do you should rename yourself to dust home for people who think they are bitter vets.
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 355	Posted - 2013.03.07 13:06:00 - [87] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: If thats the aim why name yourself after the CSM? Is it to give the impression you've got affiliation with CCP then? If thats all you plan to do you should rename yourself to dust home for people who think they are bitter vets. there was no name for it to begin with, but because we said we want to provide the community and those who want to stand out with tools, people just said we are trying to be a cool kids club, trying to copy / be the csm, which then confused other people because the csm at the time is/was doing elections, then people said we were trying to run for a seat on eve csm (we're not)... so we just picked a temporary name to seperate ourselves from it - we know it's unoriginal, we went through 2 names already (MCC - Mercenary Community Coucil, Current name, then CPM - Community of Planetary Management) but no matter what we changed it to - the actions we want to take are what define us and people would just say "oh - copying cool kids csm club!" so I decided to just let people call it what they want and actually get on with it. but from those in the room we talk with, they are also saying to change the name - "Council" does sound like a cool kids club, and as much as I can go on about it not being that - there's blatantly confusion coming from it so we're looking for another name :p (as much as I don't want to waste time making a new logo, a new sub domain and work on stuff to push forward and not to the side) brb developer meeting :)
Cerebral Wolf Jr Immobile Infantry 776	Posted - 2013.03.07 14:58:00 - [88] - Quote That's probably for the best, anything with command or council etc in it will be taken as an attempt at trying to create something luke the csm.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 3022	Posted - 2013.03.07 15:01:00 - [89] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: That's probably for the best, anything with command or council etc in it will be taken as an attempt at trying to create something luke the csm. luke? lurk? lark? like?
Jaiden Longshot Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 227	Posted - 2013.03.07 15:13:00 - [90] - Quote It sounds to me like you guys are already doing what you intended to do by getting together and discussing the game. Why do you need a name if you don't have an agenda? Why not just keep meeting, theorycrafting and talking about the game without making a forum post annointing yourselves as a council? If you think the forum signal to noise ration is too bad to get your point across then simply email the Dust 514 team with your ideas and concerns. ***The one thing you want to avoid, IMO, is insinuating that you represent the majority community opinion in some way.



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