DUST Search - CPM Topic : WTF is the CPM? March 3/3

Jaiden Longshot wrote:

Captain-Awesome wrote:

Jaiden Longshot wrote:

It sounds to me like you guys are already doing what you intended to do by getting together and discussing the game.

Why do you need a name if you don't have an agenda? Why not just keep meeting, theorycrafting and talking about the game without making a forum post annointing yourselves as a council?

If you think the forum signal to noise ration is too bad to get your point across then simply email the Dust 514 team with your ideas and concerns.

***The one thing you want to avoid, IMO, is insinuating that you represent the majority community opinion in some way.

it's more than just a bunch of people talking about community issues, we want to build a platform everyone will want to use.

take out of game user management for an example, or a corporation website that has statistics on every corp registered on the site, (without users having to manually enter that data), membership management, forums, a home for your corporation to visit when they aren't in game.

sure a CSM / CPM can go to ccp and ask them to make those tools... but CCP is giving us crest, something that lets us do it ourselves.

that's just some of the stuff we'll be doing. Talking about political issues or in game issues is part of what we want to do, but we want this project to be the central hub to all things outside of the game. Something a forum will never be able to provide.

it's not "us" and "them", it's just us. we are providing a service and tools to ourselves, to expand the metagame :) like I said in the very first post when I decided to do something about it "I have a set of skills that the community can use, so I'm going to support it as best as I can". I'm hoping the community will eventually feel the same way and expand upon itself.

Pretty sure EFT, EvEMon, Aura, etc.... all created by people who didn't need to attach a council name to themselves.

I get what you are doing but putting a council name to it seems unneccessary and what most of the contrarians are trying to get across to you.

Honestly it sounds like you want to run a fansite.....doesn't take an elected group or self titled group to do that. If your intentions are selfless and you provide a service to the community then please let us know when you have something other than a council name and I'm sure you will have all the support you could ever want.

Best of luck o7


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Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 351	Posted - 2013.03.05 17:47:00 - [1] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: Cpt awesome needs to come to this thread and explain his actions to the community if he's the instigator behind all this. Where are you cpt awesome? Why the silence? Come and answer my questions. hi cerebral, I'll post in about 15 mins (working at the moment :) but I'll be as helpful as I can. but er - you guys I do play quite a bit.... I mean, 2am is pretty late to play dust when you have work at 9:30 the following day - come on now.
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 351	Posted - 2013.03.05 18:04:00 - [2] - Quote ok I'm here, I'm also on IRC if you would rather talk there, but I assume here so everyone sees? what would you like to know?
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 351	Posted - 2013.03.05 19:49:00 - [3] - Quote note: if too long, just read the bold lines :) thought you'd say that so here I go :) this is going to be a tldr post so, sorry people well much like the cpm, I don't have anything to say (contrary to the reems of text below ;) )... I agree with what the majority here have said: 1. a cpm is far too soon It most certainly is! I created the channel back when zionshad and a couple others wanted to run for csm... I figured they would use the channel for some sort of Q&A thing :) ... after seeing a couple of people show their enthusiasm for the game, show a willingness to help (in their own eyes) only to get shot down by the forum in a way it would scare anyone from trying... I decided that I would offer my services to anyone who wanted to do anything. in this forum post. I completely agree, finding, electing and putting someone in post is by far much too soon. Nobody in this game is ready to run, nobody in this game is ready to accept, and nobody on both sides knows what they would even do! but this doesn't mean I can't help those who want to help have a platform to stand up and show their support. Beers wants to complain about something, Kain wants to do something Ironwolf wants to pass on community ideas but all we have are forums, irc and in game chat. the forums you get flamed, irc is unconstructive and forgotten, and in game chat is just inappropriate. but I digress and will come to this later. 2. the community doesn't trust itself to elect a panel it would be happy with (not a community issue) It definitely doesn't and why should it!? EVE has the mindset: "trust no-one" and as a lot of eve players have come across, so has the mindset. But nobody is there hoping a cpm is built by the next weekend. We know it's going to take months to years before the community can believe in the idea let alone an actual panel, then there's the evolution of the cpm and the community to boot. This strengthens point 1, but with time, planning, structure, the community can believe in a solid idea that it created for itself. It'll take a long, long time, but it's possible and that's what's important - whether it's official, unofficial, tied to ccp or not, the fact that it is there to give the community a better meta game, is more than enough for it's existence to start being built now. (I'll speak about why I mentioned meta game later.) 3. nobody can decide on what the cpm is for That is how early into the process it really is, and more reason for us to call out to the forum to talk about it - nobody is saying you MUST be on IRC, heck the forums are linked on the site for a reason! :) IRC is good for instant discussions only - if you have a sudden idea and need instant answers, we still need to post those IRC logs at the end of every week to the website, to the forums so people can read and talk about them, but we haven't even started doing that (until today) because we are still in that stage of setting up shop. At the moment we are making a brief, to explain to the community everything about this idea, so when people ask "what's the cpm?" people don't say "a bunch of selfish kids who want to be something" they say "a bunch of players we elected from the community to help improve the game, here's some more info", this alone will take months as we gather everybodies opinions 4. the cpm seems like a rushed idea I'm trying to make this go as slow as possible. Building the website takes some time for me and this is just the filler site until the real one is ready, the chat room is mainly where the problem lies as people get ahead of themselves, decide to change something not easily changeable (change the name is a common one). But I think the most damage is coming from people with different ideas on what the CPM should actually do... not only does it create confusion for the community, it also makes us have to reiterate what the community are there to do ontop of making more work for us to convince the rest of the community to help, I'm hoping that as we build this brief, it will help clear a lot of confusion and for those for and against it - but I wouldn't be surprised if it takes more than a google doc to change the minds of many! 5. public opinion of it is that it's a bunch of people that want a cool kids club I think if that ever happens to be true, it will fail. I never want(ed) this to be for a minority, it would never work, serve no purpose and be general fail. I suppose you could say it's one of the reasons I'm glad the IRC channel is there because those who oppose the idea are there to keep those who are for the idea on the ground. Everyone there agrees, another form of communication with ccp would be nice, but that's not what I want the cpm to be for. My idea of a council of representatives is meta game. This community, the website, the irc chats - all meta game. I enjoy seeing the discussions unfold, ideas being generated, when I first heard of the eve csm I was told "it's a council of elected players who represent the community" - I love that idea and think it adds a whole new dimension to the meta game. What does meta game have to do with CCP? absolutely nothing. So I don't see why people both for and against it make a fuss about something that isn't even the primary goal ,more to come >.< also caz, I said in the channel we need a french man! ^_^
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 351	Posted - 2013.03.05 19:49:00 - [4] - Quote next thread >.< updating!
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 351	Posted - 2013.03.05 20:17:00 - [5] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: I think you're getting ahead of yourself. Who's actually interested in and working on this project then other than yourself and iron Wolf? I'll name the people currently in the channel because these people either are for, against or have a vested interest, either way their opinion is helping shape it: me, kain, ironwolf, xplicitSoul, DeadEyesAnterie, Telc, nova, jenza, mavado, noc, rhapsodyy, Finnk (although offline, he was one of the first to join the channel) I'm hoping to get help from anyone and everyone on this so it gets done right. Rhapsodyy pointed out the CSM white paper which has some great documentation that I'm going over, and currently we are making a list of questions why we should and shouldn't as well as swot and pest analysis.
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 352	Posted - 2013.03.05 20:49:00 - [6] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: CCP will come to you when they are ready. If they so much as look at using any version of your paper they will have IA causing them problems and will lose respect in the community and they know this, you are jyst wasting your time I know CCP would come to us... I said so above, the paper I'm referring to is for me, you, everyone in the community to understand what we are trying to achieve. I didn't say it was for CCP and will always say CCP won't even take this seriously until we are something worth taking seriously. This is a video game - I thought it was all about wasting time ;) :D but on a more serious note, the oppertunity here is to create a rich platform for the community, it's not for CCP, it's for the players, and in that respect, I don't think it's time wasting for a second because I'm enjoying the opportunity to be a part of it.
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 352	Posted - 2013.03.05 21:01:00 - [7] - Quote ? you said the truth in your op - that's plenty :) I got questions, opinions and a good debate out of it.
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 352	Posted - 2013.03.05 21:54:00 - [8] - Quote I have to go in 5 minutes and don't have access to pc at home (still building it) so I will get back to you tomorrow if you have any more questions >.< I'll be in game though in about 40 minutes....
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 352	Posted - 2013.03.05 22:04:00 - [9] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: So it's for the community, who don't want it? Outside of of about 6 people that is. a sick child doesn't like medicine, does that mean they should stop getting it? From the people in the chat room, everyone wants a cpm, but those against - say it is either too soon or want ccp (think there's a third reason but I forget out of bad memory) but non of the reasons really stood against the argument. There is no reason to wait, no reason not to try, people have said they want to run for csm / cpm / what ever - that's enough for me to help them.
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 352	Posted - 2013.03.06 12:22:00 - [10] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: Captain-Awesome wrote: 5. public opinion of it is that it's a bunch of people that want a cool kids club I think if that ever happens to be true, it will fail. It is and it has. How can you say that when neither you nor cerebral wolf have heard of me? (like cerebral wolf) and this has nothing to do with me, I'm just the guy who came up with this project, Ironwolf (betamax - imperfect arch rivals) has been involved in this as much as everyone else in the list, there's no hierarchy, it's everyone gets an equal say. In the channel description it reads "attitudes are left at the door." no arguing, no off topic discussions, no pissing people off in the channel, no kicks or bans - if someone steps out of line, they get muted. (and by out of line I mean offensive) There is nothing "cool" about the people helping, the project itself is a great thing, but believe me, sitting here explaining myself over and over again, is not the fun part of this, but I'm happy to do it if people are willing to join to hear it out (Is that too much to ask?) - you can join the channel and be dead set against it, but we welcome that, we want to justify the project because we are constantly refining the objective. --- Your entire "endeavor" is the product of a group of people getting swelled heads and completely failing to understand the key issues with Dust's development at the moment from a community standpoint. --- at a community stand point (outside of the game) there are just forums. That's it. The IRC chanel is not ccp run, much like the eve channels are community driven. This group of people started with just me in the channel for 3 days, then it was 3, week later it was 7, and now this week there are 12 people in the channel. What ever you make of that, people have a vested interest in this. For / against is irrelevant because both sides agree SOMETHING is better than nothing. Now, later / by us by CCP, the common ground is that it should eventually exist. All we are doing, is taking a proactive approach, to a solution everyone says they would want in some shape or form, and I think being reactive to this is unnecessary when people are blatantly willing to commit to the task at this stage. --- If you want to create a fan site and an IRC channel that produces editorials and provides a place for conversation respectively, you're completely free to do so. We call that a "news site" (themittani.com) or a "community project" (#dust514). What you're not going to be able to do is create a "Council" of anything. --- You linger on names that are of little importance to us right now. This "Council" / union / Community representatives - what ever you want to call it. Right now, knowing what it will do for the community is what's important. Yes the website will be a news site, it will also be a place for podcasts, community voting, a way to talk to the cpm channel over those relative topics, a wiki, a holding ground for documentation on the cpm.... it should be the HUB everyone goes to learn about the community representatives, or interact with them. It needs to be more than a news site, but as it stands, that's what it is until I've had time to develop it more. --- It's nothing less than almost unanimous public opinion that the timing isn't right for CCP to launch a Dust equivalent of the CSM. Without a voting process, no "Council" has the public legitimacy to match that group's functionality in any capacity. Trying to do so is wasting your time. --- ZionTCD, Betamax, Imperfects, Hellstorm - all had someone who wanted to be a community representative, but have no way of going about it other than posting on the forums and becoming "spacepopular" much like what happens in EVE. This isn't because they lack initiative, it's because there is no platform for them to speak up and get the attention of the community. ZionShad joined the mittani, Kain did OB events, Jenza did charity events - and even though none of this was to justify them running for a representative role, it shows that these people want to do something for the community, which is what a CPM/CSM should do. I completely agree, CCP should sort the CCP - CPM aspect of it all, but other than that, there is no reasaon to wait. you want --- The real Dust community could use you Captain, and the others in that channel, down in the trenches working to get CCP to realize the real issues in Dust 514. Things like the lack of persistence, lack of content, the need for a market, expanded corporate management, and a suite of other things. Instead, you're just like The Black Jackel: wasting your time trying to do something that has no chance of succeeding its "aims". --- We are helping the community get a more refined channel of communication between itself, eve and eventually (hopefully) CCP - we aren't doing this to QQ about HMG being op, scouts being slow and all that jazz. That's for the community to talk about, we are more interested in expanding the community and meta game, not the core game itself. As it stands, there is just as much wrong with this community as there is with the game, and we want to make the community a much more useful environment to the user as well as help the game come along. The primary objective for setting up this CPM is integrate the community more into the meta game. As it stands, we are just a bunch of individuals posting on a forum, with no real continuity, we should be looking at improving that and building upon it, not accepting it because that's what was put on the plate. The black jackel is wanting to be on the cpm, we are not - there's a difference. He's one of the people we're trying to help. Agree with him or not, the purpose is to make sure he has the tools get himself out there, and the tools to do it

Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 352	Posted - 2013.03.06 12:23:00 - [11] - Quote continued post to come here
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 352	Posted - 2013.03.06 13:58:00 - [12] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: I think its about time CCP weighed in on this... why?
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 352	Posted - 2013.03.06 15:11:00 - [13] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: Why? So you dont think their input or plans will impact your own? If they say nothing will happen for 12 months we know, if they plan to use or ignore your 'help' you will know etc... Or do you just plan to go ahead and do eveything even if ccp say they dont want your input? we're not doing this to give input to ccp, so it doesn't matter if they want a connection / be affiliated or anything of the sort :) some of the things we are talking about we want these community representatives to do: Micro / Macro Improvement (How to, tutorials, wiki articles and more) Stimulating community participation (Help setup events, competitions, podcasts and more) Voicing opinions (Giving constructive feedback to debates) Giving questions and answers (polls, forum posts, q&a sessions) An unbiased third party in transactions between players (inventory, planet contracts and more) no need for ccp interaction in that :)
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 355	Posted - 2013.03.07 13:06:00 - [14] - Quote Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: If thats the aim why name yourself after the CSM? Is it to give the impression you've got affiliation with CCP then? If thats all you plan to do you should rename yourself to dust home for people who think they are bitter vets. there was no name for it to begin with, but because we said we want to provide the community and those who want to stand out with tools, people just said we are trying to be a cool kids club, trying to copy / be the csm, which then confused other people because the csm at the time is/was doing elections, then people said we were trying to run for a seat on eve csm (we're not)... so we just picked a temporary name to seperate ourselves from it - we know it's unoriginal, we went through 2 names already (MCC - Mercenary Community Coucil, Current name, then CPM - Community of Planetary Management) but no matter what we changed it to - the actions we want to take are what define us and people would just say "oh - copying cool kids csm club!" so I decided to just let people call it what they want and actually get on with it. but from those in the room we talk with, they are also saying to change the name - "Council" does sound like a cool kids club, and as much as I can go on about it not being that - there's blatantly confusion coming from it so we're looking for another name :p (as much as I don't want to waste time making a new logo, a new sub domain and work on stuff to push forward and not to the side) brb developer meeting :)
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 355	Posted - 2013.03.07 15:23:00 - [15] - Quote Jaiden Longshot wrote: It sounds to me like you guys are already doing what you intended to do by getting together and discussing the game. Why do you need a name if you don't have an agenda? Why not just keep meeting, theorycrafting and talking about the game without making a forum post annointing yourselves as a council? If you think the forum signal to noise ration is too bad to get your point across then simply email the Dust 514 team with your ideas and concerns. ***The one thing you want to avoid, IMO, is insinuating that you represent the majority community opinion in some way. it's more than just a bunch of people talking about community issues, we want to build a platform everyone will want to use. take out of game user management for an example, or a corporation website that has statistics on every corp registered on the site, (without users having to manually enter that data), membership management, forums, a home for your corporation to visit when they aren't in game. sure a CSM / CPM can go to ccp and ask them to make those tools... but CCP is giving us crest, something that lets us do it ourselves. that's just some of the stuff we'll be doing. Talking about political issues or in game issues is part of what we want to do, but we want this project to be the central hub to all things outside of the game. Something a forum will never be able to provide. it's not "us" and "them", it's just us. we are providing a service and tools to ourselves, to expand the metagame :) like I said in the very first post when I decided to do something about it "I have a set of skills that the community can use, so I'm going to support it as best as I can". I'm hoping the community will eventually feel the same way and expand upon itself.
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 355	Posted - 2013.03.07 15:48:00 - [16] - Quote Jaiden Longshot wrote: Captain-Awesome wrote: Jaiden Longshot wrote: It sounds to me like you guys are already doing what you intended to do by getting together and discussing the game. Why do you need a name if you don't have an agenda? Why not just keep meeting, theorycrafting and talking about the game without making a forum post annointing yourselves as a council? If you think the forum signal to noise ration is too bad to get your point across then simply email the Dust 514 team with your ideas and concerns. ***The one thing you want to avoid, IMO, is insinuating that you represent the majority community opinion in some way. it's more than just a bunch of people talking about community issues, we want to build a platform everyone will want to use. take out of game user management for an example, or a corporation website that has statistics on every corp registered on the site, (without users having to manually enter that data), membership management, forums, a home for your corporation to visit when they aren't in game. sure a CSM / CPM can go to ccp and ask them to make those tools... but CCP is giving us crest, something that lets us do it ourselves. that's just some of the stuff we'll be doing. Talking about political issues or in game issues is part of what we want to do, but we want this project to be the central hub to all things outside of the game. Something a forum will never be able to provide. it's not "us" and "them", it's just us. we are providing a service and tools to ourselves, to expand the metagame :) like I said in the very first post when I decided to do something about it "I have a set of skills that the community can use, so I'm going to support it as best as I can". I'm hoping the community will eventually feel the same way and expand upon itself. Pretty sure EFT, EvEMon, Aura, etc.... all created by people who didn't need to attach a council name to themselves. I get what you are doing but putting a council name to it seems unneccessary and what most of the contrarians are trying to get across to you. Honestly it sounds like you want to run a fansite.....doesn't take an elected group or self titled group to do that. If your intentions are selfless and you provide a service to the community then please let us know when you have something other than a council name and I'm sure you will have all the support you could ever want. Best of luck o7 yeah the name isn't important which is why I don't want to dwell on it too long, I'll change it for the last time tonight (make logo changes/subdomain etc) and hopefully be done with it. I think initially you can call it a fansite, functionality will be basic, structure will be basic, but as we build and build upon it, the community will want to use the tools, the structure more and that's when the interesting stuff comes in :)
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 355	Posted - 2013.03.07 16:00:00 - [17] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Free Beers wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: it was posted a page or two back captain awsome listed all the current people in channel. There is no password and anyone reasonable is allowed in. Just give it up now. You theory crafting from a few will never be accepted by the community. Beers perfect the example of a fan boy elitist. Its his views or nobody's views. it's people like beers who will keep our feet on the ground :) the more resistance, the more we learn :)
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 355	Posted - 2013.03.07 16:02:00 - [18] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote: I think its about time CCP weighed in on this... Until CCP says anything on this matter the whole 'CPM' is a pipe dream As it is now the 'CPM' in my eyes is made up of ppl who mainly want more power and to change DUST to suit them and the corps that they represent They may yap about things in the IRC with devs and say 'we are helping the game' when in fact it was proved that the IRC is run by an individual for ther own gain and to inflate that ego a bit more with the promise of more power later on like a seat on the CPM Have a different view in the IRC and you get banned, or they just mute everyone so only certain questions are asked so you might aswell be banned, you have no voice if you are outside of the club We dont even have the list of representatives in this 'CPM' No one knows who they really are and what they stand for, they are hoping that when CCP finally decide to get involved that the 'CPM' looks organized and official enough that they all get places at the table As it is now CCP would be best to leave it and deal with it themselves at a later date it was posted a page or two back captain awsome listed all the current people in channel. There is no password and anyone reasonable is allowed in. Hm yea i dont believe you If you dont agree with the club you get kicked and banned from the clubhouse and its happened already a few times Also half of that list is in some way associated with IMPS, other half is ppl i have never heard of at all and why is that? its because they dont post on the official CCP forums and a couple of other ppl are only ther to inflate ther ego and get something for themselves So a 'Council' which happens to be run by one alliance with maybe a few ppl who are also in it for themselves with a few other names that no one has ever heard of The 'CPM' needs shutting down and for CCP to take control of it you are grossly misunderstanding what's happening, read the page not just that one post, it'll clear up a lot of what you just stated.
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 355	Posted - 2013.03.07 16:21:00 - [19] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: All i needed was a list of names, that list just showed what the 'CPM' really is a list? nobody is allowed to be banned from the channel :) so I'd like to know how you came to your conclusions on how people get banned, lists get cleared etc? in the channel heading it states "attitudes are left at the door" (like I said in the page you should have read) if people even go off topic, they get told to move chat to #dust514. if people get abusive - they just get muted until they've cooled down. No bans, no drama, everyone still gets to see what was said.