First of covering the grenades.

I think flux and AV grenades need some tweaking currently the standard varients are very powerful. I would like to see them tweaked so the standard lose 300 damage overall and the advanced take a 200 damage nerf and have the proto will stay the same. This will teir these grenades to there counter parts of vehicles. Standard will work great at against millitant. Advanced against standard tanks and people will want to skill into proto to better handle proto tanks.
Reasonable, but I would like to make a different suggestion. Add militia AV grenades that do as damage as you say the standard grenades should, and let you carry two instead of three. The less educated and the more frugal will be drawn to these grenades, and you will see a significant decrease in people using the standard variant, giving tankers a chance and also not making AV people mad with a nerf.

Second for the grenades I do think there needs to be longer throw time between grenade tosses. This should not be something you use as a primary force to kill tanks It should be something you start off with to break down a little HP or something you use to finish a tank low on heallth. Currently I can use standard lvl AV grenades as my primary force in melting tanks I do not need swarms or forge I just run behind a wall through down nano hives and as the tank drives by start chucking and get a easy kill. This will make forges and swarms the primary force in AVing tanks as it should be.
Once again, this is a reasonable idea, but my own suggestion differs. Make a cooldown timer on earning grenades via supply depots and nanohives, not nerfing AV, but limiting their exploit of infinite grenade spamming.

Next AV advantages against shield or armor. Currently I think the only thing that is making armor tanks considered is the bonus is to high. I personally think swarms should only gain a 5% bonus against armor and have only a 93% effectiveness against shields. You gain effectiveness for using it against armor tanks but it is not to the point that it is over effective like swarms currently are. Same with any AV that comes out with bonus against shield tanks.
Yes.

Now onto forges and swarms.

I was talking to one of our forge users Kain Spero about his AVing experiences at the end right before the reset. And what he said was I never needed to use my proto forges why spend the money when I can do the same job with my advanced forge.

This statement really shows that running proto AV is not necesary you do not need to risk much to take out a fully pimped out proto tank. People should have to run proto AV if they want to effeciently take down proto HAVs LAVs and dropships.
Sure.

Now with that being said I think Millitant/standard swarms need to loose 250 and millitant/standard forges need to loose 300 damage Advanced swarms need to take a 200 damage nerf and advance forges need to take a 250 damage nerf. Proto can be left alone.
Disagree. Swarm launchers are by no means overpowered.

Also on forges they 315m range is a little high I think it needs to be ton down a little militant forges should be only hitting 140m standard 200m advanced 225m proto 250m.
I only agree to this if large railgun turrets also get this range nerf.

Militant swarms need to take 100m off there range. standard needs to loose 50m of there current range advanced should hold there current range and proto should gain another 50m on there range
No, no, no, please no. Swarm launchers are anti-air just as much as they are anti-tank, and a range nerf would ruin their ability to take out dropships.

This will teir out AV to there classes If someone wants to destroy proto vehicles effectively they will have to invest there skill points and isk for the job.

REWARDING AV for their efforts:
Yes to all of that.

I'm pretty happy with AV vs. vehicles right now. It doesn't seem too lopsided in either direction.

I'm pretty happy with AV vs. vehicles right now. It doesn't seem too lopsided in either direction.

AV grenades seem fine as-is. If infantry are able to get close enough to you to use grenades, you're doing it wrong. Tanks shouldn't feel like they can just drive around, solo, and expect to stomp the entire team. Powerful AV grenades are the reward for infantry who manage to get close to tanks, either because the tank has no infantry support, or because the tank drove into an area with a lot of cover for infantry to attack from. I'm totally cool with tanks being easy to take out if they fight unsupported. Team games should emphasize teamwork. Lone players ought to lose every time. That includes people driving around in a tank, heedless of what their allies are up to.

The balance between swarms/forge guns and tanks is a harder thing to discuss. I believe it's more a mathematical equation than something you can talk about anecdotally with any sort of authority. I'll leave it in CCP's hands, in that case. Whatever their data shows as far as the effectiveness of these weapons against tanks, I'll go with. But for what it's worth, I don't think it was such a major imbalance last build, and it won't be much different this one once people get rolling with the proto tanks.

also from a logic aspect I find the damage forgeguns compared to railguns laughable, how does a handheld weapon do more damage then a vehicle mounted weapon?

And +1 to you post Caeli

LAVs need to be worth 65 wp, dropships need to be worth 90 wp and HAVs should be worth 175 wp.

The changes read fine and agree with them but also a couple of things you have missed out

1. FG should never do more damage than a vehicle mounted railgun

2. AV grenades need to lose the homing ability they have since you can be quite far away but still throw nades and know they will hit anyways because of the homing crap since the game makes up for the players bad positioning

1. Equally mounted rail guns shouldn't have scopes because forge guns don't also they should make the vehicle there slow or stop while firing because that what forge guns do. also tanks with rail guns shouldn't move faster than a heavy with a forge gun.

2. tanks shouldn't be able to move and fire. firing should totally disable movement for a few seconds.

AV vs. vehicles is currently lopsided in the direction of AV. At the end of last build a proto forge could 3 shot a proto sagaris. To me that is imbalanced.

What you need to ask your self is how many people should it take to take down a well fit tank? To me it should take 4 or more guys to take down a proto tank if they are using militia or standard av, 3 guys using advanced, and 2 guys rocking proto.

also from a logic aspect I find the damage forgeguns compared to railguns laughable, how does a handheld weapon do more damage then a vehicle mounted weapon?

And +1 to you post Caeli

I am glad that I am getting good response.

Hope ccp can take some of this in consideration. Make AV a actual career choice but reward them correctly for it.

Zdogg also brought up a good thing. Lately everyone has been talking about tanks need to be a team effort that is why you are getting killed. AV also needs to be a team effort and currently it is not one. Soloing vehicles is very possible as a AV person. And they need that to be team effort also.

Forge guns need their range increased and accuracy improved. Hitting a tank at 200m can be difficult because of the inaccuracy, especially when you have to worry about avoiding all infantry and the tank itself. Stack that on the fact that the round has travel time, you may need to move to keep with your target, and the target can hide the majority of itself while still able to easily hit the AV.

I would gladly trade 10-20% of my forgegun damage for improved range and accuracy (Also a scope would be helpful).

I support the OP's message. if anyone really thinks av vs vehicles are balanced. please drive a tank and find out for yourself.

+1

AV is ridiculous, especially its range and people defending its range just want to keep their GETRIDOFTHEVEHICLE Button.
Since this new spawn system for ambuh happened, everyone has decided to sit on the red line firing swarms at the Dropship with no consequence, we can't snipe them due to them being hidden away, we cannot use infantry because of how far into the redzone they are and we cannot fly over to kill them because the **** deals 1200 damage. So then we're pinned at our Red line having to fly further into the redzone just to escape it because we can't even tank the damage lol.

(Just my point on range, most people forget about the other vehicles "BUT MY FORGE GUN CANT KILL THE TANK!" but you can certainly two shot my Dropship no matter what mods are on it)

It should take a squad of dudes to kill ur tank worth 2 million isk and what like 3 million Skill points about (i never had Proto) its probably like 3 million for the tank and mods/turrets and 4 million worth of SP. +1 +1+1 to anything that brings tanks to the level they should be at.

AV guys I could use your feedback on the question of

"How many guys do you think it should take to take down a fully fit proto tank? using gear lvls please

Me with a standard forge + weaponry lvl 5 + a complex damager = 6-8 shots

With a friend that has a proto forge, it was 3-4 shots both of us.

And with 2 friends, one with proto (said above) and another with advanced one, it was 1 shot for both of us + another last shot from one of us to destroy it.

First of covering the grenades.

I think flux and AV grenades need some tweaking currently the standard varients are very powerful. I would like to see them tweaked so the standard lose 300 damage overall and the advanced take a 200 damage nerf and have the proto will stay the same. This will teir these grenades to there counter parts of vehicles. Standard will work great at against millitant. Advanced against standard tanks and people will want to skill into proto to better handle proto tanks.

Second for the grenades I do think there needs to be longer throw time between grenade tosses. This should not be something you use as a primary force to kill tanks It should be something you start off with to break down a little HP or something you use to finish a tank low on heallth. Currently I can use standard lvl AV grenades as my primary force in melting tanks I do not need swarms or forge I just run behind a wall through down nano hives and as the tank drives by start chucking and get a easy kill. This will make forges and swarms the primary force in AVing tanks as it should be.

Next AV advantages against shield or armor. Currently I think the only thing that is making armor tanks considered is the bonus is to high. I personally think swarms should only gain a 5% bonus against armor and have only a 93% effectiveness against shields. You gain effectiveness for using it against armor tanks but it is not to the point that it is over effective like swarms currently are. Same with any AV that comes out with bonus against shield tanks.

Now onto forges and swarms.

I was talking to one of our forge users Kain Spero about his AVing experiences at the end right before the reset. And what he said was I never needed to use my proto forges why spend the money when I can do the same job with my advanced forge.

This statement really shows that running proto AV is not necesary you do not need to risk much to take out a fully pimped out proto tank. People should have to run proto AV if they want to effeciently take down proto HAVs LAVs and dropships.

Now with that being said I think Millitant/standard swarms need to loose 250 and millitant/standard forges need to loose 300 damage Advanced swarms need to take a 200 damage nerf and advance forges need to take a 250 damage nerf. Proto can be left alone.

Also on forges they 315m range is a little high I think it needs to be ton down a little militant forges should be only hitting 140m standard 200m advanced 225m proto 250m.

Militant swarms need to take 100m off there range. standard needs to loose 50m of there current range advanced should hold there current range and proto should gain another 50m on there range

This will teir out AV to there classes If someone wants to destroy proto vehicles effectively they will have to invest there skill points and isk for the job.

REWARDING AV for ther efforts:

Now with this being said. AVing needs a better WP system and also a better reward base system for vehicle kills.

First off the person who puts out the most damage onto a vehicle should earn the kill warpoints. You can set it on a 30 second timer from the last time the person has dealt damage to the vehicle. so if I do the highest amount of hitpoints in damage but not the killing blow I still get the vehicle kill while the person who hits last gets vehicle assist and kill on the people inside the vehicle.

you also need to bring back the 25 point damage system that was here in E3 build giving a little bit more warpoints to those who choose to hunt vehicles and keep them on par with the killers in the game on warpoints they earn.

LAVs need to be worth 50 wp dropships need to be worth 100 wp and HAVs should be worth 175 wp.

Next on the line is isk pays outs. Currently for killing expensive vehicles you earn crap for isk. Really the person who gets the kill pull in 20% of its total cost meaning if you pop a sagaris that its total build cost 2.5m you are rewarded 500k isk. If you get a assist on that sagaris you should get 5% of the profits netting 125k more isk for you.

I also think there needs to be a leaderboard stat that gives stat on average the total cost of vehicles you destroy in a match.

This will give people a reason to specialize in AV all around first off because if they want to take on higher end tanks they will need proto AV to effectively perform that job. And also they are getting rewarded for the work they do aka isk earned and wps and if you suit a leaderboard to show of there vehicle killing they have a stat to brag.

The changes read fine and agree with them but also a couple of things you have missed out

1. FG should never do more damage than a vehicle mounted railgun

2. AV grenades need to lose the homing ability they have since you can be quite far away but still throw nades and know they will hit anyways because of the homing crap since the game makes up for the players bad positioning

In particular, AV grenades are fine. standard are pretty useless.

They are not causing OP problems on the field.

Also, Swarms are pretty broke - but presuming this is because shield tanking beats armour and swarms work best on armour. And Forge seems balanced to me. Wanted to go swarm with SMG but Swarms and SMG have been rubbish since the E3 build.
It was skiling into Forge when i realised swarms were pointless.

In response to OP's convo with a corp mate before the reset: I skilled into forge last build up to lvl 4 proficiency. I didnt use the proto because it was too expensive and I preferred breach. But against a properly fit tank and capable driver I needed to be part of an AV team to have a chance to take out a decent tank. This would be a mix of players with proto grenades and speced up foge gunners

Overall, we have hardly skilled in to anything due to the reset and you are calling for nerfs. There aren't any decent fit tanks on the field yet...

I am going to leave it here because this is just another nerf thread.

They NEED to nerf the militia and standard AV weapons to force people to actually spec into them if they want to hunt high end tanks. Having good militia and standard gear makes AV builds pointless if everyone can just switch to their av loadouts, kill the threat and then switch back. A true AV loadouts suffers a great deal when it comes to infantry ...so having someone deepening AV means they are all but useless against everything else...so if no tanks are called...it kind of sucks

They NEED to nerf the militia and standard AV weapons to force people to actually spec into them if they want to hunt high end tanks. Having good militia and standard gear makes AV builds pointless if everyone can just switch to their av loadouts, kill the threat and then switch back. A true AV loadouts suffers a great deal when it comes to infantry ...so having someone deepening AV means they are all but useless against everything else...so if no tanks are called...it kind of sucks

Then they need to nerf militia vehicles, or remove.

First of covering the grenades.

Next AV advantages against shield or armor.

Now onto forges and swarms.

REWARDING AV for their efforts:

Totally agree with this, why risk a 3-4 mill proto tank when the opposing team can all simply swap out at supply depot and **** ur face with risk free gear, I think there will be ppl on both sides of the fence, tank drivers....meh alt that loved it when there was 50-0 and AV dudes that wanna solo proto tanks, all I'm saying as input is there shouldn't be a free militia version to counter high end isk items, at least make it take level 1 something ffs. As for new players, I could see there being Av in starter fits but a very very nerfed version, militia should be nothing more then an idea of how you wanna play the game, not a viable solution to not needing skill points in that area, u wanna kill a tank, lav or dropship, train for it.

I am an AV guy...I honestly think it belittles my job when anyone can grab a free suit and do 75% of the damage my proto weapon can do...it makes me think what is the point?

Easy. A full team can't all switch to forge guns because then the infantry on the tank's side will mop them up. A team in pub battles has to hope that someone will take care of it while they keep the infantry busy.

I understand what you guys are saying here, but this would do nothing but imbalance things further. You guys know as well as anyone that a well specced tank with a good support team can dominate. If you don't want to worry about losing that ISK investment, then don't field the tank until you are in a battle where you are confident in your team.

So the general impression I'm getting is "if you call in a HAV in anything but a corp match, and use it for anything but hiding in the redline and sniping, you deserve to lose it."

If tanks take 3-4 people to kill they better be removed from pub matches, because whenever I squad with people few of us will have av fittings and its unlikely you could get anyone outside of your squad to coordinate with you.

Takes a team to keep a tank alive, should take a team to kill one.


.

It used to a few builds ago

Easy. A full team can't all switch to forge guns because then the infantry on the tank's side will mop them up. A team in pub battles has to hope that someone will take care of it while they keep the infantry busy.

I understand what you guys are saying here, but this would do nothing but imbalance things further. You guys know as well as anyone that a well specced tank with a good support team can dominate. If you don't want to worry about losing that ISK investment, then don't field the tank until you are in a battle where you are confident in your team.

Agreed.
The problem is we have folks using MILITIA "tanks" with NO SKILLS and expecting them to work??

Now if I had maxxed out armour boosting skills plus max shield regen plus max shield boost plus max PG and CPU boost and we take that militia tank and fit it with proto mods then yeah!! then its run!!! little fragile infantry rabbits!!

Theres some guides from Nano Debacle on how to fit them but the two things that tankers need to learn is :
No skills then no tank.
And.
If you stop your tank to see WHERE that funny BONG!! sound came from that just cut 1500 HP from your shield then hey then you deserve to have your tank be TOASTED!!

I have proto mods on my Sica fool, xXDust BunnyXx is alt, and yes I can tear up gunnlogis atm and yes my fit costs around 500k+ on a militia tank, and yes 2 free militia forge gunners with no skills will eat me while 4 other buddies go to supply depot swap for swarms then when I'm dead right back to ar while taking cover and firing from behind the supply depot. Uber balanced ****.



EDIT and when I get my gunnlogi, nothing will change but better buffer really.

it's an instant gratification thing. they want to be invulnerable NOW!

AV is fine. Tanks are not, nor should they be, sacrosanct. Kill them all.

Why do I even bother?
I saw your "tank" and you do not have shield regen maxxed plus shield boost maxxed along with the other skills as it takes over two million SP and we are at what? 1 M sp?/
LOL.

If they widen the gap between tanks, they can then widen the gap between AV gear, but at the current rates it's not very doable without breaking something worse than it already is.


Apart from that, I thought you ran pistols? Did you decide to change up for the open beta? I like dodging your pistols.... =(

It used to a few builds ago

Why do I even bother?
I saw your "tank" and you do not have shield regen maxxed plus shield boost maxxed along with the other skills as it takes over two million SP and we are at what? 1 M sp?/
LOL.

Lol what team, u know last night of my like 12 man team, 9 we're snipers.......like I said, risk free crap is kinda the name of the game atm.

Very well fitted tanks should be able to hold up to FG/SL if they are milita/basic for at least a few seconds and be able to tank damage instead of getting hit and having to retreat at the 1st site of AV

AV ppl should have to specialize into advanced and proto just like tanker have to because milita sucks and every milita tank ive come accross has died quickly either by my hand or maybe a couple of us, even gunlogis die quickly atm just to 2 guys and milita or even 1

Garbage AV fits versus garbage "tanks"= tossup.
Garbage AV fits versus REAL TANKS= DEAD infantry.
Proto AV fits versus garbage "tanks"=dead garbage tanks.
Proto TANKS versus garbage AV fits= DEAD infantry.

Working as intended.

Get some skills yo.

I assure you, the militia forge is weak by comparison.

I have proto mods on my Sica fool, xXDust BunnyXx is alt.

AV vs. vehicles is currently lopsided in the direction of AV. At the end of last build a proto forge could 3 shot a proto sagaris. To me that is imbalanced.

What you need to ask your self is how many people should it take to take down a well fit tank? To me it should take 4 or more guys to take down a proto tank if they are using militia or standard av, 3 guys using advanced, and 2 guys rocking proto.

also from a logic aspect I find the damage forgeguns compared to railguns laughable, how does a handheld weapon do more damage then a vehicle mounted weapon?

And +1 to you post Caeli

It's simple. The Forge Gun is made for AV, so it does more damage to vehicles. They don't want to do something stupidly overcomplicated and add a multiplier for vehicle damage, so they just make the damage higher because in that range, it doesn't matter anymore.

But it still OHKs all but the most expensive LAVs

First off Proto AV vs Proto tank pimped to the max. Proto AV wins anyday. Some proto forge set ups can currently 3 shot fully tanked sagaris. Sorry it is a broken system

Which brings me to this question:

Whose brilliant idea was it to put an oversized battery pack behind a Caldari tank for all to see and shoot?

Which brings me to this question:

Whose brilliant idea was it to put an oversized battery pack behind a Caldari tank for all to see and shoot?

Takes a team to keep a tank alive, should take a team to kill one.

how many av guys should it take to take down a proto fit tank?

AV vs vehicle is ******* broken, One goddamn AV guy can solo a ******* tank. The to top it off a ******* forge gun is better at splash then a ******* missile launcher. All of you AV qq;'s succsfully are turning this ******* game into COD514. Buff missiles back to where they were. Buff Rails back to where they were.

Or mongoloid CCP will just listen to the COD scrubs and nerf tanks some more while buffing ******* retards.

Oh and whos ******* ******** Idea was it to put in a shoot here box and do a ton of damage to the back of tanks.

MONGOLOID BALANCING CCP