AV guys I could use your feedback on the question of

"How many guys do you think it should take to take down a fully fit proto tank? using gear lvls please

Me with a standard forge + weaponry lvl 5 + a complex damager = 6-8 shots

With a friend that has a proto forge, it was 3-4 shots both of us.

And with 2 friends, one with proto (said above) and another with advanced one, it was 1 shot for both of us + another last shot from one of us to destroy it.

First of covering the grenades.

I think flux and AV grenades need some tweaking currently the standard varients are very powerful. I would like to see them tweaked so the standard lose 300 damage overall and the advanced take a 200 damage nerf and have the proto will stay the same. This will teir these grenades to there counter parts of vehicles. Standard will work great at against millitant. Advanced against standard tanks and people will want to skill into proto to better handle proto tanks.

Second for the grenades I do think there needs to be longer throw time between grenade tosses. This should not be something you use as a primary force to kill tanks It should be something you start off with to break down a little HP or something you use to finish a tank low on heallth. Currently I can use standard lvl AV grenades as my primary force in melting tanks I do not need swarms or forge I just run behind a wall through down nano hives and as the tank drives by start chucking and get a easy kill. This will make forges and swarms the primary force in AVing tanks as it should be.

Next AV advantages against shield or armor. Currently I think the only thing that is making armor tanks considered is the bonus is to high. I personally think swarms should only gain a 5% bonus against armor and have only a 93% effectiveness against shields. You gain effectiveness for using it against armor tanks but it is not to the point that it is over effective like swarms currently are. Same with any AV that comes out with bonus against shield tanks.

Now onto forges and swarms.

I was talking to one of our forge users Kain Spero about his AVing experiences at the end right before the reset. And what he said was I never needed to use my proto forges why spend the money when I can do the same job with my advanced forge.

This statement really shows that running proto AV is not necesary you do not need to risk much to take out a fully pimped out proto tank. People should have to run proto AV if they want to effeciently take down proto HAVs LAVs and dropships.

Now with that being said I think Millitant/standard swarms need to loose 250 and millitant/standard forges need to loose 300 damage Advanced swarms need to take a 200 damage nerf and advance forges need to take a 250 damage nerf. Proto can be left alone.

Also on forges they 315m range is a little high I think it needs to be ton down a little militant forges should be only hitting 140m standard 200m advanced 225m proto 250m.

Militant swarms need to take 100m off there range. standard needs to loose 50m of there current range advanced should hold there current range and proto should gain another 50m on there range

This will teir out AV to there classes If someone wants to destroy proto vehicles effectively they will have to invest there skill points and isk for the job.

REWARDING AV for ther efforts:

Now with this being said. AVing needs a better WP system and also a better reward base system for vehicle kills.

First off the person who puts out the most damage onto a vehicle should earn the kill warpoints. You can set it on a 30 second timer from the last time the person has dealt damage to the vehicle. so if I do the highest amount of hitpoints in damage but not the killing blow I still get the vehicle kill while the person who hits last gets vehicle assist and kill on the people inside the vehicle.

you also need to bring back the 25 point damage system that was here in E3 build giving a little bit more warpoints to those who choose to hunt vehicles and keep them on par with the killers in the game on warpoints they earn.

LAVs need to be worth 50 wp dropships need to be worth 100 wp and HAVs should be worth 175 wp.

Next on the line is isk pays outs. Currently for killing expensive vehicles you earn crap for isk. Really the person who gets the kill pull in 20% of its total cost meaning if you pop a sagaris that its total build cost 2.5m you are rewarded 500k isk. If you get a assist on that sagaris you should get 5% of the profits netting 125k more isk for you.

I also think there needs to be a leaderboard stat that gives stat on average the total cost of vehicles you destroy in a match.

This will give people a reason to specialize in AV all around first off because if they want to take on higher end tanks they will need proto AV to effectively perform that job. And also they are getting rewarded for the work they do aka isk earned and wps and if you suit a leaderboard to show of there vehicle killing they have a stat to brag.

The changes read fine and agree with them but also a couple of things you have missed out

1. FG should never do more damage than a vehicle mounted railgun

2. AV grenades need to lose the homing ability they have since you can be quite far away but still throw nades and know they will hit anyways because of the homing crap since the game makes up for the players bad positioning

In particular, AV grenades are fine. standard are pretty useless.

They are not causing OP problems on the field.

Also, Swarms are pretty broke - but presuming this is because shield tanking beats armour and swarms work best on armour. And Forge seems balanced to me. Wanted to go swarm with SMG but Swarms and SMG have been rubbish since the E3 build.
It was skiling into Forge when i realised swarms were pointless.

In response to OP's convo with a corp mate before the reset: I skilled into forge last build up to lvl 4 proficiency. I didnt use the proto because it was too expensive and I preferred breach. But against a properly fit tank and capable driver I needed to be part of an AV team to have a chance to take out a decent tank. This would be a mix of players with proto grenades and speced up foge gunners

Overall, we have hardly skilled in to anything due to the reset and you are calling for nerfs. There aren't any decent fit tanks on the field yet...

I am going to leave it here because this is just another nerf thread.

They NEED to nerf the militia and standard AV weapons to force people to actually spec into them if they want to hunt high end tanks. Having good militia and standard gear makes AV builds pointless if everyone can just switch to their av loadouts, kill the threat and then switch back. A true AV loadouts suffers a great deal when it comes to infantry ...so having someone deepening AV means they are all but useless against everything else...so if no tanks are called...it kind of sucks

They NEED to nerf the militia and standard AV weapons to force people to actually spec into them if they want to hunt high end tanks. Having good militia and standard gear makes AV builds pointless if everyone can just switch to their av loadouts, kill the threat and then switch back. A true AV loadouts suffers a great deal when it comes to infantry ...so having someone deepening AV means they are all but useless against everything else...so if no tanks are called...it kind of sucks

Then they need to nerf militia vehicles, or remove.

First of covering the grenades.

Next AV advantages against shield or armor.

Now onto forges and swarms.

REWARDING AV for their efforts:

Totally agree with this, why risk a 3-4 mill proto tank when the opposing team can all simply swap out at supply depot and **** ur face with risk free gear, I think there will be ppl on both sides of the fence, tank drivers....meh alt that loved it when there was 50-0 and AV dudes that wanna solo proto tanks, all I'm saying as input is there shouldn't be a free militia version to counter high end isk items, at least make it take level 1 something ffs. As for new players, I could see there being Av in starter fits but a very very nerfed version, militia should be nothing more then an idea of how you wanna play the game, not a viable solution to not needing skill points in that area, u wanna kill a tank, lav or dropship, train for it.

I am an AV guy...I honestly think it belittles my job when anyone can grab a free suit and do 75% of the damage my proto weapon can do...it makes me think what is the point?

Easy. A full team can't all switch to forge guns because then the infantry on the tank's side will mop them up. A team in pub battles has to hope that someone will take care of it while they keep the infantry busy.

I understand what you guys are saying here, but this would do nothing but imbalance things further. You guys know as well as anyone that a well specced tank with a good support team can dominate. If you don't want to worry about losing that ISK investment, then don't field the tank until you are in a battle where you are confident in your team.

So the general impression I'm getting is "if you call in a HAV in anything but a corp match, and use it for anything but hiding in the redline and sniping, you deserve to lose it."

If tanks take 3-4 people to kill they better be removed from pub matches, because whenever I squad with people few of us will have av fittings and its unlikely you could get anyone outside of your squad to coordinate with you.

Takes a team to keep a tank alive, should take a team to kill one.


.

It used to a few builds ago

Easy. A full team can't all switch to forge guns because then the infantry on the tank's side will mop them up. A team in pub battles has to hope that someone will take care of it while they keep the infantry busy.

I understand what you guys are saying here, but this would do nothing but imbalance things further. You guys know as well as anyone that a well specced tank with a good support team can dominate. If you don't want to worry about losing that ISK investment, then don't field the tank until you are in a battle where you are confident in your team.

Agreed.
The problem is we have folks using MILITIA "tanks" with NO SKILLS and expecting them to work??

Now if I had maxxed out armour boosting skills plus max shield regen plus max shield boost plus max PG and CPU boost and we take that militia tank and fit it with proto mods then yeah!! then its run!!! little fragile infantry rabbits!!

Theres some guides from Nano Debacle on how to fit them but the two things that tankers need to learn is :
No skills then no tank.
And.
If you stop your tank to see WHERE that funny BONG!! sound came from that just cut 1500 HP from your shield then hey then you deserve to have your tank be TOASTED!!

I have proto mods on my Sica fool, xXDust BunnyXx is alt, and yes I can tear up gunnlogis atm and yes my fit costs around 500k+ on a militia tank, and yes 2 free militia forge gunners with no skills will eat me while 4 other buddies go to supply depot swap for swarms then when I'm dead right back to ar while taking cover and firing from behind the supply depot. Uber balanced ****.



EDIT and when I get my gunnlogi, nothing will change but better buffer really.

it's an instant gratification thing. they want to be invulnerable NOW!

AV is fine. Tanks are not, nor should they be, sacrosanct. Kill them all.