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Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.10.22 14:01:00 - [1] - Quote Disclaimer: Been here 3 builds, I know its a beta, I hang out in IRC alot and know what the devs are up to well before most of the community is and actually hated for it, my interest in game development is extremely high and I have done alot of 'research' to approach philosophy of designing games. I have spent 3 weeks researching why my will to play has been waning, its not the bugs, lack of balance, the short comings of an incomplete game, or lack of features, while this may not be the exact problem why I don't feel like playing I honestly beleve this is the most likely culprit. So onto the issue. Just like the soda you forgot about in the back of your car the fizzy is no longer there, the want to drink that soda is gone now. What do I mean? Where do I know? How does go? I'll explain. To help you out let me define flat term for you as I use it in this context and no it doesn't mean the maps are flat. So... what is a Flat game? A game that does not emphasize getting better gear simply because its not a possible option as 'better' weapons don't really exist because all weapons are balanced and its more about the situation or play preference. Some examples, Counter Strike, Halo, CoD1-2, Earlier Battlefields To call these games flat isn't a bad thing, the shift in focus from either being able to use one gun very well, or use the best gun for that situation. I would point out that Halo was probably the best example of this (though biased via endless hours of playing for nothing), there was absolutely no 'go-to' weapon in the game, every weapon was subject to drawbacks vulnerabilities and short sightedness for whatever advantage you can get out of it. A guy with a pistol can still easily kill a guy with a rocket launcher. Now onto flat games unsightly evil twin the Depth Game This is a non flat game emphasizes progression, or 'optional-ization' you way into bigger and better game play options, guns, add-ons, attributes ect ect ect. The game that dust 514 is trying to sell itself off as. Games like current battlefields and current call of duties, and just about all of your MMOs. The more you play the 'deeper' it gets in terms of things to do, ways to improve and of course ways to play. So you may be asking, what am I complaining about? I have gotten to the point in this game where I feel that its far to flat despite flaunting around the depth. Example in Module Slap on an armor plate? I still die just as fast as if I never had the armor plates. Usually in the current environment right now is that when I start dying I die so fast the HP bar cannot keep up so having armor doesn't seem to slow that down at all no matter how good it is. I rarely survive people shooting in current envrionments which doesnt really warrent the use of repairs, Shields are to thin seemingly vaporized near instatnly despite skill backing. The most anomolous or exmpetion to this feeling would be the deployable equipment. How about weapons? Other than getting to lvl 2 to unlock different types or the swarm launcher. I don't seem to kill faster with 'better' guns than previously before, Heavies still drop to my militia rifle nearly at the same rate to my Duvolle. The swarm launcher is the only anomalous weapon that has markedly vast gapping between meta levels. The point is, Skill Points, Meta-levels, and Isk has just about no value to me. There is no progression or at least no feel of it. If I have to spend 3 weeks of skilling and gearing just to feel marginal amounts of difference (which it doesn't) There is nearly no change in feeling on equipping modules either. It almost as if I am not getting rewarded for creating good fits and I certainly am not getting punished for making bad fits. In eve making bad fits is amazing transmitted clearly as a bad idea once you face something that melts your face off. Its actually its to the point I am getting PUNISHED for making good fits. because after all dying costs isk and good modules cost alot of isk. (thought that can be fixed and it will be soon) Now it wouldn't be so bad if and only if the flat game was good, Its not. There are so many unused modules, guns, and far to few many goto weapons resulting in most people copying each other on weapon usage. Gun handling is still bad, I had to go back and play halo to get and idea of smoothed out console based gun handling. While its not as bad as Kill Zone's torso on pegs, dust 514 does have the pegged torso feel to it, just extremely higher fidelity vs KZ but its enough to ** anyone off who has played halo a lot which doesn't feel pegged at all. While I have to side with the FPSers that having skills effect performance can be seen as a bad thing. When it comes to to weapons being advertised as being bigger and better and there is still no feeling of bigger oumph, something is entirely off. Overall I feel that the game has gone extremely flat the last few builds with all the skill level nerfs meta level refactoring and suit hp squashing, just overall its not been entirely helpful. It just feels if you where to give me a character with maxed out SP and lots of isk I still wouldn't be able to enjoy, notice the difference, and probably just go back to using militia suits. Less load lag that way. Either way I am not feeling it, playing dust 514 these days feels like pulling teeth. So I break I shall take. TL;DR** I feel this game has gotten to the point that I feel there is no difference between a militia suit with only a gun on it vs a full proto suit with proto modules and max SP, ergo no need to progress. IE ISK SP and Metalevel has no meaning anymore.
SoLJae ZionTCD Legacy Rising 351	Posted - 2012.10.22 14:06:00 - [2] - Quote You're not stoked about the tournament starting this weekend, Iron? Everyone else is buzzing about it.
Sponge- Bob 40	Posted - 2012.10.22 14:09:00 - [3] - Quote Classic EVE THREAD I play more DUST then anyone else, so I should be 10x stronger then a new player. Its a FPS... Its called BALANCE DEAL WITH IT!
DUST Fiend Immobile Infantry 1902	Posted - 2012.10.22 14:10:00 - [4] - Quote Wow, literally could not have said it better myself. I for one think it really started at the nerf to suit HP. They should be using bigger numbers, not smaller. Things need to scale up a lot faster than they are right now, to keep the game constantly moving. Once they have their matchmaking system figured out, gear differences will become much less notable. When I upgrade my suit, I want to feel like I actually upgraded my suit >_<
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.10.22 14:11:00 - [5] - Quote Sponge- Bob wrote: Classic EVE THREAD I play more DUST then anyone else, so I should be 10x stronger then a new player. Its a FPS... Its called BALANCE DEAL WITH IT! Dude... I am the guy running around with militia gear with very few skill points killing players who now have about 20x more skill points than me now. What I am trying to say is that I can go out in a suit nekkid and armed with nothing but a gun and probably kill everyone I ran across cept a tank. You can't do that in eve online.
Specter RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 52	Posted - 2012.10.22 14:11:00 - [6] - Quote The fact is, when you use weapons of higher skill level they're not supposed to feel like you are Dominant over someone else because you've played longer. If someone has a Militia while you're running with a Duvolle Proto Assault Rifle its gonna go to whom has the most experience with the weapons and the necessary skill to make low end weapons work for them. The way CCP seems to be planning this is that even if you've played longer, you shouldn't have a overly huge edge over someone whom is a fresh clone. That doesn't mean that the weapons can't be stronger than the last, it just means that if you want that slight edge over someone, then go for it. No one ain't stopping you but its your loss if you die with something you can't afford to loose. As the old saying goes, Its not the weapon that kills people, its those who are handing the weapon. Otherwise, it would be just be another one of those games where if you played longer, you are immediately better than a new person. Edit: But in honesty, it seems that the overall "End Game" factor seems to be coming a bit too fast, which is what you are probably emphasizing over. As it stands now, the factor of "End game" seems to be far too little in a simple statement. And as expensive as these end game items are, they show no real worth if they can be beaten so easily from a new player.
Sponge- Bob 40	Posted - 2012.10.22 14:11:00 - [7] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Wow, literally could not have said it better myself. I for one think it really started at the nerf to suit HP. They should be using bigger numbers, not smaller. Things need to scale up a lot faster than they are right now, to keep the game constantly moving. Once they have their matchmaking system figured out, gear differences will become much less notable. When I upgrade my suit, I want to feel like I actually upgraded my suit >_< ITS IS PEOPLE LIKE THAT WILL KILL THIS GAME
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.10.22 14:14:00 - [8] - Quote Specter RND wrote: The fact is, when you use weapons of higher skill level they're not supposed to feel like you are Dominant over someone else because you've played longer. If someone has a Militia while you're running with a Duvolle Proto Assault Rifle its gonna go to whom has the most experience with the weapons and the necessary skill to make low end weapons work for them. The way CCP seems to be planning this is that even if you've played longer, you shouldn't have a overly huge edge over someone whom is a fresh clone. That doesn't mean that the weapons can't be stronger than the last, it just means that if you want that slight edge over someone, then go for it. No one ain't stopping you but its your loss if you die with something you can't afford to loose. As the old saying goes, Its not the weapon that kills people, its those who are handing the weapon. Otherwise, it would be just be another one of those games where if you played longer, you are immediately better than a new person. While I agree with most of the statement it just feels that stuff I am putting onto the suits has nearly no effect. Why put on armor plates? why shield extenders. You will answer more HP, and I answer back does the 100 more HP really matter?
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.10.22 14:17:00 - [9] - Quote SoLJae wrote: You're not stoked about the tournament starting this weekend, Iron? Everyone else is buzzing about it. what tournament?
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.10.22 14:21:00 - [10] - Quote Sponge- Bob wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Wow, literally could not have said it better myself. I for one think it really started at the nerf to suit HP. They should be using bigger numbers, not smaller. Things need to scale up a lot faster than they are right now, to keep the game constantly moving. Once they have their matchmaking system figured out, gear differences will become much less notable. When I upgrade my suit, I want to feel like I actually upgraded my suit >_< ITS IS PEOPLE LIKE THAT WILL KILL THIS GAME ^ This one needs to train reading comprehension to lvl 1

Specter RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 52	Posted - 2012.10.22 14:21:00 - [11] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Specter RND wrote: The fact is, when you use weapons of higher skill level they're not supposed to feel like you are Dominant over someone else because you've played longer. If someone has a Militia while you're running with a Duvolle Proto Assault Rifle its gonna go to whom has the most experience with the weapons and the necessary skill to make low end weapons work for them. The way CCP seems to be planning this is that even if you've played longer, you shouldn't have a overly huge edge over someone whom is a fresh clone. That doesn't mean that the weapons can't be stronger than the last, it just means that if you want that slight edge over someone, then go for it. No one ain't stopping you but its your loss if you die with something you can't afford to loose. As the old saying goes, Its not the weapon that kills people, its those who are handing the weapon. Otherwise, it would be just be another one of those games where if you played longer, you are immediately better than a new person. While I agree with most of the statement it just feels that stuff I am putting onto the suits has nearly no effect. Why put on armor plates? why shield extenders. You will answer more HP, and I answer back does the 100 more HP really matter? From what you're saying, I agree with completely. It seems like as if the little additions around in the games fundamentals seem to be too little in an overall statement. But, as I said earlier, they're only trying to keep things in balance for everyone to have fun playing while being serious about it at the same time. While, I too, find the overall usefulness of even going out and getting enhanced everything's in the marketplace being quite low, they still want to keep things in balance for a new player. Although, I do want some kind of significant buff over things for being a long time player for Dust514, its really up to CCP to decide such factors as this.
KryptixX Imperfects Negative-Feedback 320	Posted - 2012.10.22 14:28:00 - [12] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Specter RND wrote: The fact is, when you use weapons of higher skill level they're not supposed to feel like you are Dominant over someone else because you've played longer. If someone has a Militia while you're running with a Duvolle Proto Assault Rifle its gonna go to whom has the most experience with the weapons and the necessary skill to make low end weapons work for them. The way CCP seems to be planning this is that even if you've played longer, you shouldn't have a overly huge edge over someone whom is a fresh clone. That doesn't mean that the weapons can't be stronger than the last, it just means that if you want that slight edge over someone, then go for it. No one ain't stopping you but its your loss if you die with something you can't afford to loose. As the old saying goes, Its not the weapon that kills people, its those who are handing the weapon. Otherwise, it would be just be another one of those games where if you played longer, you are immediately better than a new person. While I agree with most of the statement it just feels that stuff I am putting onto the suits has nearly no effect. Why put on armor plates? why shield extenders. You will answer more HP, and I answer back does the 100 more HP really matter? I'm a heavy so i would say no. But going from regular HMG to broadside HMG (Prototype) and stacking 2 complex damage mods, that is a 50% damage increase and a clear noticeable difference between the two.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.10.22 14:28:00 - [13] - Quote I think one solution would be to increase the overall effect of meta level 0 items and shift all the other modules in line with it near current scale. That way when you slap on an armor plate you actually feel its effects. Vehicles I think are the only ones that don't suffer from this 'flat' effect. I have seen various LAVs that people have poured much more skill points into, a well fitted one will out survive a single stock of the my militia launcher which is also the only non flat weapon in the entire game where going between meta-levels changes the hell of a world of the difference in performance and its one of the few odd balls in the game that do so.
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.10.22 14:30:00 - [14] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Sponge- Bob wrote: Classic EVE THREAD I play more DUST then anyone else, so I should be 10x stronger then a new player. Its a FPS... Its called BALANCE DEAL WITH IT! Dude... I am the guy running around with militia gear with very few skill points killing players who now have about 20x more skill points than me now. What I am trying to say is that I can go out in a suit nekkid and armed with nothing but a gun and probably kill everyone I ran across cept a tank. You can't do that in eve online. 20x more ? Not possible in Dust at the moment. And is it that bad ? No. Would you rather have no chance just because you have no gear ? I know i feel a lot of difference between having a damager or not having one. I feel a difference between having a militia suit or my A-series fitted with two complex shield extender. I feel the difference between my low grade grenade and my brand new flux grenade. Yet and FORTUNATELY i can still get killed by militia guy running around the battlefield ! => Also, you're talking about minor change ? but did you do some math ? => 30 HP damage for militia rifle without skill => 30 HP damage militia AR + 10 % (weaponry V) + 10% (assault rifle op lvl2) => 36 = basic duvolle. => 36 HP duvolle + 10% + 10% (same) + 10% damage through better suit. => 47 HP per bullet Add to this difference in damage, the difference in HP of the suit you use. Militia suit Assaut-A serie suit. Same base HP + 2 shield extender => 122 more HP. Now, tell me there's no difference between a guy doing 47 HP per bullet on 750 ROF weapons with 122 HP more than the guy with same skills and militia rifle and suit and i'd say you're a fool. it's not about one "minor" improvement, it's about "minor" ImprovementS. And it comes down to who is good enough to overcome those difference and who's good enough to use them wisely and efficiently.
Specter RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 52	Posted - 2012.10.22 14:31:00 - [15] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I think one solution would be to increase the overall effect of meta level 0 items and shift all the other modules in line with it near current scale. That way when you slap on an armor plate you actually feel its effects. Vehicles I think are the only ones that don't suffer from this 'flat' effect. I have seen various LAVs that people have poured much more skill points into, a well fitted one will out survive a single stock of the my militia launcher which is also the only non flat weapon in the entire game where going between meta-levels changes the hell of a world of the difference in performance and its one of the few odd balls in the game that do so. So what you mean is, buff ALL of the core dynamics by a core principle multiplier of "x" to actually feel some sort of difference while excluding some "non-flat" items? Sounds like a good idea to me but might cause problems.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.10.22 14:33:00 - [16] - Quote KryptixX wrote: But going from regular HMG to broadside HMG (Prototype) and stacking 2 complex damage mods, that is a 50% damage increase and a clear noticeable difference between the two. The thing is the HMG imo is overkill when I trigger down on someone and after some self measurements my average kill per stock is about the same between the Proto and regular.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.10.22 14:35:00 - [17] - Quote Specter RND wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I think one solution would be to increase the overall effect of meta level 0 items and shift all the other modules in line with it near current scale. That way when you slap on an armor plate you actually feel its effects. Vehicles I think are the only ones that don't suffer from this 'flat' effect. I have seen various LAVs that people have poured much more skill points into, a well fitted one will out survive a single stock of the my militia launcher which is also the only non flat weapon in the entire game where going between meta-levels changes the hell of a world of the difference in performance and its one of the few odd balls in the game that do so. So what you mean is, buff ALL of the core dynamics by a core principle multiplier of "x" to actually feel some sort of difference while excluding some "non-flat" items? Sounds like a good idea to me but might cause problems. It might, but I want to feel the difference between a nekkid suit and a suit with something slapped on it on both self and the things Im shooting. Like if i shot a heavy suit with armor plate I want to feel that instead of dropping him with one clip from my militia AR. This would at least encourage going out and getting SP to able use items.
KryptixX Imperfects Negative-Feedback 320	Posted - 2012.10.22 14:38:00 - [18] - Quote It's not so much CQC, because yeah any HMG will just chop someone up. but from medium-longer range is where i notice the difference.
Tony Calif Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2002	Posted - 2012.10.22 14:44:00 - [19] - Quote Difficult situation... I liked it the first few days of precursor where we were restricted by suit lvl. I.E. you can't use advanced suits in a standard/militia level battle. Sandbox be damned. Some cat will only poop in the sandbox. Quite a few of us just stayed in the proto server. Others kept in the militia. It WORKED :D Things are far too flat in comparison to Replication. That's for certain.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.10.22 14:46:00 - [20] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Sponge- Bob wrote: Classic EVE THREAD I play more DUST then anyone else, so I should be 10x stronger then a new player. Its a FPS... Its called BALANCE DEAL WITH IT! Dude... I am the guy running around with militia gear with very few skill points killing players who now have about 20x more skill points than me now. What I am trying to say is that I can go out in a suit nekkid and armed with nothing but a gun and probably kill everyone I ran across cept a tank. You can't do that in eve online. 20x more ? Not possible in Dust at the moment. And is it that bad ? No. Would you rather have no chance just because you have no gear ? I know i feel a lot of difference between having a damager or not having one. I feel a difference between having a militia suit or my A-series fitted with two complex shield extender. I feel the difference between my low grade grenade and my brand new flux grenade. Yet and FORTUNATELY i can still get killed by militia guy running around the battlefield ! => Also, you're talking about minor change ? but did you do some math ? => 30 HP damage for militia rifle without skill => 30 HP damage militia AR + 10 % (weaponry V) + 10% (assault rifle op lvl2) => 36 = basic duvolle. => 36 HP duvolle + 10% + 10% (same) + 10% damage through better suit. => 47 HP per bullet Add to this difference in damage, the difference in HP of the suit you use. Militia suit Assaut-A serie suit. Same base HP + 2 shield extender => 122 more HP. Now, tell me there's no difference between a guy doing 47 HP per bullet on 750 ROF weapons with 122 HP more than the guy with same skills and militia rifle and suit and i'd say you're a fool. it's not about one "minor" improvement, it's about "minor" ImprovementS. And it comes down to who is good enough to overcome those difference and who's good enough to use them wisely and efficiently. You only need 10 million sp to have 20x more effective over one of my characters. Its quite possible at this moment. I rather get reminded that running out there without some sort of tank is a bad idea. I would like to get reminded that stacking too much of one module is also a bad idea, I would like to get reminded that there is such thing as a bad fit instead of running out in the open nekkid. Also you have no idea how much hate mail my noob alt gets, people get pissed when they get slaughtered by some one in militia only. 122 more hp drops in what? 0.5 seconds at most? oh I know 0.001 of a tank shell or a grenade my most common killers.

Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.10.22 14:47:00 - [21] - Quote KryptixX wrote: It's not so much CQC, because yeah any HMG will just chop someone up. but from medium-longer range is where i notice the difference. Yeah I mostly use the HMG as a shotgun...
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.10.22 14:49:00 - [22] - Quote Tony Calif wrote: Difficult situation... I liked it the first few days of precursor where we were restricted by suit lvl. I.E. you can't use advanced suits in a standard/militia level battle. Sandbox be damned. Some cat will only poop in the sandbox. Quite a few of us just stayed in the proto server. Others kept in the militia. It WORKED :D Things are far too flat in comparison to Replication. That's for certain. I know just there needs to be something... it took me this entire build to put my finger on why my will to play has been waning and I think its this issue alone. because if you fix all the bugs fix the major complaints add a few more features and the sort and I honestly think that fixes those aforementioned issues will not make me continue to play this game. Not even in the long run.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.10.22 14:56:00 - [23] - Quote So what i got from it is that milita is on the same level as proto stuff So the milita suit is the same as proto suit on shield and armor basics excluding skills but the only diff is number of slots but it seems he want it like it was back in the day where each suit had a bit more shield/armor aswell as slots Bit of a meh thread tbh
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.10.22 15:01:00 - [24] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: So what i got from it is that milita is on the same level as proto stuff So the milita suit is the same as proto suit on shield and armor basics excluding skills but the only diff is number of slots but it seems he want it like it was back in the day where each suit had a bit more shield/armor aswell as slots Bit of a meh thread tbh No just I don't feel the effects of having more slots being useful because I feel that the modules themselves are non-noncontributing to my overall soldier environment. Like I said earlier its a bit difficult for me to place a finger on the exact issue.
S Park Finner BetaMax. 89	Posted - 2012.10.22 15:02:00 - [25] - Quote One difference between EVE and DUST 514 is that in EVE you can, to a certain extent, pick your battles. As a result, the load-outs and skills in EVE can make a difference and the players can choose to take on a tough battle or to avoid it. In DUST 514 that's not possible. There are no enforced skill caps (or agreed upon skill measurements) for battles. Players get thrown into battles and get eaten alive or stuck with players that don't challenge them. The "flatness" the OP points out may be a response on CCP's part to a failing mechanism for matching skills in battles. I believe that CCP should try out... Publish, for each player, a skill level metric based in part on the equipment they are allowed to load-out. At least in the beta make the components of the skill metric known to players so it can be freely discussed. Use that metric as a cap for battles Let players choose the level battle they are willing to enter Make skills and load-outs have real impact on performance in the game
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2283	Posted - 2012.10.22 15:07:00 - [26] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Wow, literally could not have said it better myself. I for one think it really started at the nerf to suit HP. They should be using bigger numbers, not smaller. Things need to scale up a lot faster than they are right now, to keep the game constantly moving. Once they have their matchmaking system figured out, gear differences will become much less notable. When I upgrade my suit, I want to feel like I actually upgraded my suit >_< u do notice the difference in suit upgrades from previous tier if u fitted ur dropsuit properly ppl just want to be demigods small advantage > demigod status CCP has it right with the suit nerf Gear should only provide a decent/small advantage not make it so that an avg player can just sponge 5x as much shots as a new skilled fps player and win gunfights cuz of it
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.10.22 15:09:00 - [27] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Wow, literally could not have said it better myself. I for one think it really started at the nerf to suit HP. They should be using bigger numbers, not smaller. Things need to scale up a lot faster than they are right now, to keep the game constantly moving. Once they have their matchmaking system figured out, gear differences will become much less notable. When I upgrade my suit, I want to feel like I actually upgraded my suit >_< u do notice the difference in suit upgrades from previous tier if u fitted ur dropsuit properly ppl just want to be demigods small advantage > demigod status CCP has it right with the suit nerf Gear should only provide a decent/small advantage not make it so that an avg player can just sponge 5x as much shots as a new skilled fps player and win gunfights cuz of it I do not mind the HP squashing, CCP said they did it to shift focus to the modules. The problem with modules which I am declaring non-contributive. Also to that note, militia gear is OP and I am saying this as a heavy user of the damn things.
Jariel Manton SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 210	Posted - 2012.10.22 15:11:00 - [28] - Quote I was orgianlly going to say something like o another one of those Dust is going to die threads but after reading the OP you make a good point. I agree that There is very very little difference achieved in the amount of time spent for skilling. The problem with this isnt that nothing changes its that your expenses skyrocket. Lets forget for a second that many players now have a huge sum of money to play with. Right now the only way to get isk is to play matches and if your running semi upgraded gear you may only be able to die less than 5 times to come out ahead. This wont matter to me when isk transfer is available, pve is introduced, an open market where our salvage can be sold and things like this are there to suppliment my income. TLDR You make a good point and i agree but only for now because i hate the isk system as it is and it will be fixed when other income options come into play.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.10.22 15:20:00 - [29] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: So what i got from it is that milita is on the same level as proto stuff So the milita suit is the same as proto suit on shield and armor basics excluding skills but the only diff is number of slots but it seems he want it like it was back in the day where each suit had a bit more shield/armor aswell as slots Bit of a meh thread tbh No just I don't feel the effects of having more slots being useful because I feel that the modules themselves are non-noncontributing to my overall soldier environment. Like I said earlier its a bit difficult for me to place a finger on the exact issue. Only because the suits are the same then you have to fit out your suit proper 2 builds ago on that 1 map we only got to play on with SP/ISK everywhere that protosuit and the gear i had = beast mode because i had so much health to begin with and my mods i had improved that and i could survive a hell of alot Now the weapons seem to kill faster but thats because each suit is kinda the same but having the right mods makes a difference But the major diff is proto doesnt = i win mode now
Zat Earthshatter Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 304	Posted - 2012.10.22 15:25:00 - [30] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Dude... I am the guy running around with militia gear with very few skill points killing players who now have about 20x more skill points than me now. What I am trying to say is that I can go out in a suit nekkid and armed with nothing but a gun and probably kill everyone I ran across cept a tank. You can't do that in eve online. That... probably has nothing to do with weapon balance, or the game being "flat"... But I do agree with your OP, to a degree. There really should be a difference between gear levels, with a possible maximum being Tech-2 level. The real noob protection absolutely has to be the system security status, not cubicle-grade homogenization. However, the real trick there is to figure out how the security level affects gameplay. On a basic level, you shouldn't be able to launch a DUST battalion in hi-sec unless you wardec the target corp. How it plays to in-match balance is difficult for a sandbox universe. The best bet for fixing that? an "ISK budget" with maximums set inverse to the security status. You could either launch 4 guys in a couple proto suits, or send down a massive force of militia people. Should cover the bases, while allowing for good sandboxing.

Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.10.22 15:34:00 - [31] - Quote Well putting things in eve perspective its highly possible for tech 2 to be defeated by tech 1.
xjumpman23 Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 262	Posted - 2012.10.22 15:40:00 - [32] - Quote Killzone 2 has the best gunplay of this generation. DUST could learn a few things about gunplay from killzone.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.10.22 15:42:00 - [33] - Quote xjumpman23 wrote: Killzone 2 has the best gunplay of this generation. DUST could learn a few things about gunplay from killzone. HELL NO, I DO NOT WANT THE PEGGED TORSO.
Conraire Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 52	Posted - 2012.10.22 16:28:00 - [34] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Well putting things in eve perspective its highly possible for tech 2 to be defeated by tech 1. Thats because in EVE Meta 4 Tech 1 named mods are usually fairly equal in stats tot heir tech 2 counterparts. The key differentiating factor being, they're usually also more expensive, due to being loot drop only. Which doesn't seem to be the case with this game. Though it makes me wonder how they'll handle that once the actual player market is active. But, Iron wolf is making a good point. There are times when using a scout or an assault suit that I get gunned down instantly, regardless of what I have fit. Thats with extenders, some times armor plates on the assault, etc. It literally doesn't feel like they have any real effect at all. When squaring off 1v1 a militia fit shouldn't be able to gun down someone with higher level fits without breaking a sweat. And that's literally what I've seen. It's one thing if you're using strategy and hunting or sneaking around behind someone. Its another when you come at someone straight on guns blazing, while they're shooting the hell out of you, and still manage to out ROF and damage them. The only mod I see that seems to have any effect is the armor repair mod, if you live long enough. And, what I'd like to see with match making would be High sec 1.0-0.7 would be militia only, call that game mode suppression or rebellion. The empires would be sending local militia's to suppress a rebellion for example. 0.6-0.5 Would be incursion style, standard level gear at max. These are pretty close to their fringe systems, so more likely to be unstable, due to lowered police and customs presence. 0.4-0.1 Would be what standard Ambush or Skirmish are, max gear level would be advanced gear. 0.0 would be open sandbox, with proto gear, high risk with high payout rewards.
Ayures II Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 103	Posted - 2012.10.22 16:59:00 - [35] - Quote I've only ran militia fits and tribute suits this build. Up against someone with a similar fit, I usually do ok. If I'm up against someone with better gear (even just a GEK), then I have a hell of a time beating them. The only reason I survive some of those engagements is because I'm not horrible at this game. Upgrading your gear most definitely gives you a damned good advantage.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.10.22 17:15:00 - [36] - Quote Ayures II wrote: I've only ran militia fits and tribute suits this build. Up against someone with a similar fit, I usually do ok. If I'm up against someone with better gear (even just a GEK), then I have a hell of a time beating them. The only reason I survive some of those engagements is because I'm not horrible at this game. Upgrading your gear most definitely gives you a damned good advantage. That may be a disparity between my skill set and yours thought not everyone is the same, which is why I also think this is a very touchy subject. But here's a question for you. Do you know the guy you shot had an armor plate or not or even a shield extender? Can you possibly reverse engineer his fit based on how quickly he died or how he died?
Vi Leosude Doomheim 2	Posted - 2012.10.22 17:20:00 - [37] - Quote Tony Calif wrote: Difficult situation... I liked it the first few days of precursor where we were restricted by suit lvl. I.E. you can't use advanced suits in a standard/militia level battle. Sandbox be damned. Some cat will only poop in the sandbox. Quite a few of us just stayed in the proto server. Others kept in the militia. It WORKED :D Things are far too flat in comparison to Replication. That's for certain. No it didnt. Those limitations werent enforced in any way. There were proto suits running about on the Militia servers. What was nice about it though was being able to choose which map you were playing on as well as the North/East/South/West bit which made me feel like I was part of a larger battle.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.10.22 17:21:00 - [38] - Quote I think modules should give more bonus give them a point
Ayures II Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 103	Posted - 2012.10.22 17:24:00 - [39] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Ayures II wrote: I've only ran militia fits and tribute suits this build. Up against someone with a similar fit, I usually do ok. If I'm up against someone with better gear (even just a GEK), then I have a hell of a time beating them. The only reason I survive some of those engagements is because I'm not horrible at this game. Upgrading your gear most definitely gives you a damned good advantage. That may be a disparity between my skill set and yours thought not everyone is the same, which is why I also think this is a very touchy subject. But here's a question for you. Do you know the guy you shot had an armor plate or not or even a shield extender? Can you possibly reverse engineer his fit based on how quickly he died or how he died? The most I can tell is that it takes longer to chew through their shields and armor.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.10.22 17:24:00 - [40] - Quote I am going have to say that would be the first step in fixing the issue, Making the individual modules stronger, keep the current scaling but make the initial value adding higher so that way a nekkid suit would certainly feel disadvantaged against a fitted suit.

Revelations 514 Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 38	Posted - 2012.10.22 17:42:00 - [41] - Quote Long story short the OP is right. Balance needs to be achieved by keeping balance within the meta level. Right now, an Assualt Suit with an AR or a Heavy with an HMG pretty much tops whatever else you have. This should be balanced. Also, if somone is using a meta 0 fit, and comes into contact with someone with a meta 3 fit, their is not much of an advantage, (see exception below). All the extra skills and ISK invested does not really give a substantial advantage, lessening the reason to use anything other than militia. I have noticed that meta levels seem to matter on 2 items, the AR and the HMG. Not the suits, just these two weapons seem to receive some pretty good gains leveling up. But that's it for the most part, (SL too I suppose). I don't know if thier is a correlation between these two having upgrades that are actually relevent and the fact that they are the go-to weapons this build or not, but evidence tends to lead in that direction. I use a shotgun scout, and honestly, their is almost no difference between using higher tier weapons and mods compared to militia, so I just invest in soft skills and run all militia. So, in review, BALANCE is good within the meta level, IMBALANCE is good for different meta levels. (If I get beat by someone with better gear, it motivates me to get better gear too, when I get beat because a particular spec or "class" is OP even when on the same level it is frustrating. Thats the difference and I think the OP nailed it for the most part. *I couldn't even find a full game to play in last night, the player drop off this build has been huge....and is upsetting for a game with this much promise.
Tech Ohm Eaven L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 401	Posted - 2012.10.22 18:21:00 - [42] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Specter RND wrote: The fact is, when you use weapons of higher skill level they're not supposed to feel like you are Dominant over someone else because you've played longer. If someone has a Militia while you're running with a Duvolle Proto Assault Rifle its gonna go to whom has the most experience with the weapons and the necessary skill to make low end weapons work for them. The way CCP seems to be planning this is that even if you've played longer, you shouldn't have a overly huge edge over someone whom is a fresh clone. That doesn't mean that the weapons can't be stronger than the last, it just means that if you want that slight edge over someone, then go for it. No one ain't stopping you but its your loss if you die with something you can't afford to loose. As the old saying goes, Its not the weapon that kills people, its those who are handing the weapon. Otherwise, it would be just be another one of those games where if you played longer, you are immediately better than a new person. While I agree with most of the statement it just feels that stuff I am putting onto the suits has nearly no effect. Why put on armor plates? why shield extenders. You will answer more HP, and I answer back does the 100 more HP really matter? Why bother with a suit repper?? I Live LONGER!! Extra shields and armor? I live LONGER!! A heavy with 200? shields and 1500 armour and a militia SMG and its easy to go 22 and 5 versus 200 shields and 200 armour in an assault suit and I go 5 and 5. In a T2 logi suit my stamina reloads at 25 per second letting me sprint like a scout all game long so thats a huge advantage versus my militia fits. My basic tac ar is single shot but its cheap versus the full auto of the GEK but the GEK has just about the range I need so I prefer the more costly GEK. And hey! look at the killfeed GEK, GEK, GEK and even more GEK!! My basic forge gun versus a more expensive one and its much easier to get tank kills with the more expensive one. The only way for me to get a kill in a basic setup versus a better equiped enemy is to ambush them.
fenrir storm Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 314	Posted - 2012.10.22 19:14:00 - [43] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Disclaimer: Been here 3 builds, I know its a beta, I hang out in IRC alot and know what the devs are up to well before most of the community is and actually hated for it, my interest in game development is extremely high and I have done alot of 'research' to approach philosophy of designing games. I have spent 3 weeks researching why my will to play has been waning, its not the bugs, lack of balance, the short comings of an incomplete game, or lack of features, while this may not be the exact problem why I don't feel like playing I honestly beleve this is the most likely culprit. So onto the issue. Just like the soda you forgot about in the back of your car the fizzy is no longer there, the want to drink that soda is gone now. What do I mean? Where do I know? How does go? I'll explain. To help you out let me define flat term for you as I use it in this context and no it doesn't mean the maps are flat. So... what is a Flat game? A game that does not emphasize getting better gear simply because its not a possible option as 'better' weapons don't really exist because all weapons are balanced and its more about the situation or play preference. Some examples, Counter Strike, Halo, CoD1-2, Earlier Battlefields To call these games flat isn't a bad thing, the shift in focus from either being able to use one gun very well, or use the best gun for that situation. I would point out that Halo was probably the best example of this (though biased via endless hours of playing for nothing), there was absolutely no 'go-to' weapon in the game, every weapon was subject to drawbacks vulnerabilities and short sightedness for whatever advantage you can get out of it. A guy with a pistol can still easily kill a guy with a rocket launcher. Now onto flat games unsightly evil twin the Depth Game This is a non flat game emphasizes progression, or 'optional-ization' you way into bigger and better game play options, guns, add-ons, attributes ect ect ect. The game that dust 514 is trying to sell itself off as. Games like current battlefields and current call of duties, and just about all of your MMOs. The more you play the 'deeper' it gets in terms of things to do, ways to improve and of course ways to play. So you may be asking, what am I complaining about? I have gotten to the point in this game where I feel that its far to flat despite flaunting around the depth. Slap on an armor plate? I still die just as fast as if I never had the armor plates. Usually in the current environment right now is that when I start dying I die so fast the HP bar cannot keep up so having armor doesn't seem to slow that down at all no matter how good it is. How about weapons? Other than getting to lvl 2 to unlock different types or the swarm launcher. I don't seem to kill faster with 'better' guns than previously before, Heavies still drop to my militia rifle nearly at the same rate to my Duvolle. The swarm launcher is the only anomalous weapon that has markedly vast gapping between meta levels. The point is, Skill Points, Meta-levels, and Isk has just about no value to me. There is no progression or at least no feel of it. If I have to spend 3 weeks of skilling and gearing just to feel marginal amounts of difference (which it doesn't) There is nearly no change in feeling on equipping modules either. It almost as if I am not getting rewarded for creating good fits and I certainly am not getting punished for making bad fits. In eve making bad fits is amazing transmitted clearly as a bad idea once you face something that melts your face off. Its actually its to the point I am getting PUNISHED for making good fits. because after all dying costs isk and good modules cost alot of isk. (thought that can be fixed and it will be soon) Now it wouldn't be so bad if and only if the flat game was good, Its not. There are so many unused modules, guns, and far to few many goto weapons resulting in most people copying each other on weapon usage. Gun handling is still bad, I had to go back and play halo to get and idea of smoothed out console based gun handling. While its not as bad as Kill Zone's torso on pegs, dust 514 does have the pegged torso feel to it, just extremely higher fidelity vs KZ but its enough to ** anyone off who has played halo a lot which doesn't feel pegged at all. While I have to side with the FPSers that having skills effect performance can be seen as a bad thing. When it comes to to weapons being advertised as being bigger and better and there is still no feeling of bigger oumph, something is entirely off. Overall I feel that the game has gone extremely flat the last few builds with all the skill level nerfs meta level refactoring and suit hp squashing, just overall its not been entirely helpful. It just feels if you where to give me a character with maxed out SP and lots of isk I still wouldn't be able to enjoy, notice the difference, and probably just go back to using militia suits. Less load lag that way. Either way I am not feeling it, playing dust 514 these days feels like pulling teeth. So I break I shall take. TL;DR** I feel this game has gotten to the point that I feel there is no difference between a militia suit with only a gun on it vs a full proto suit with proto modules and max SP, ergo no need to progress. IE ISK SP and Metalevel has no meaning anymore. Ahh young one you have come over to the dark side, For once I totaly agree with you can count on my hands how many times I have played this build.
Super Cargo Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 428	Posted - 2012.10.22 19:19:00 - [44] - Quote I think the problem is that everything is being balanced around the beta. The relatively small player base and low-integration with EVE requires that it be a flat game. However, in the long run (i.e. Launch and integration with EVE) this game needs more depth when it comes to suits, weapons, and modules. Let's be honest, the mechanics won't be winning this game any awards, so they might as well focus on a very deep progression system. Focus on your strengths CCP.
sundown d'kay DETHDEALERS 12	Posted - 2012.10.22 22:37:00 - [45] - Quote I've been on and off when it comes to playing the Dust beta, but for the last two patches the game has become progressively more unplayable. The FPS mechanics are totally broken, some might think that KZ is **** when it comes to handling, but for me its the best console FPS I've ever played. The handling is perfect, even after they toned it down in KZ3. I played KZ2 and KZ3 for countless hours, and maybe that is why I feel Dust is awkward. I was excited about Dust from the moment I heard about it, and I had high hopes for it when I first tried out the game 3 patches ago. But my hopes are fading with every new patch that comes along. Stability might have gotten better, and more depth has been added to the game, but it seams like CCP has forgotten all about what Dust really is.. a FPS.. I know its a beta, but Dust feels like a PS2 title, hell maybe even a PS1 title.. I don't mind the **** visuals, and the barren maps, but the game is not fun to play. I don't long too boot it up and go for a few matches, hell I've never feelt like that with Dust, again I know its a beta, but even then the magic that keeps us gamers comin back for more should already be there by now. I've lost hope that Dust will ever be successful outside beta testers and die hard EVE fans. This game is not gonna win over the MW, MOH and KZ growd anytime soon.. if it ever will. I wish that CCP would get their heads unstuck from their asses and realise that the game is on its way down the drain. They should have gotten somebody on-board that knows FPS because its clear they have no idea what they are doing.. its a shame since they got the skill/depth pretty much nailed. But who wants to grind for SP, when gameplay is so mind-numbing boring.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.10.22 23:31:00 - [46] - Quote been trying to clear up my OP a bit, its a bit messy I'll be honest and I pretty sure I tried to TLDR it so that tryhards at reading would get what I am saying its quite obious they missed the point entirely.
The Polish Hammer Doomheim 373	Posted - 2012.10.22 23:44:00 - [47] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Wow, literally could not have said it better myself. I for one think it really started at the nerf to suit HP. They should be using bigger numbers, not smaller. Things need to scale up a lot faster than they are right now, to keep the game constantly moving. Once they have their matchmaking system figured out, gear differences will become much less notable. When I upgrade my suit, I want to feel like I actually upgraded my suit >_< I know that feel Stomping around in my Type A Heavy suit is damn near worthless.....
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.10.23 03:14:00 - [48] - Quote Super Cargo wrote: I think the problem is that everything is being balanced around the beta. The relatively small player base and low-integration with EVE requires that it be a flat game. However, in the long run (i.e. Launch and integration with EVE) this game needs more depth when it comes to suits, weapons, and modules. Let's be honest, the mechanics won't be winning this game any awards, so they might as well focus on a very deep progression system. Focus on your strengths CCP. Right now I am feeling that the very low rewards has significnatly destroyed our player base partiicpation atm.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.10.23 12:00:00 - [49] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Super Cargo wrote: I think the problem is that everything is being balanced around the beta. The relatively small player base and low-integration with EVE requires that it be a flat game. However, in the long run (i.e. Launch and integration with EVE) this game needs more depth when it comes to suits, weapons, and modules. Let's be honest, the mechanics won't be winning this game any awards, so they might as well focus on a very deep progression system. Focus on your strengths CCP. Right now I am feeling that the very low rewards has significnatly destroyed our player base partiicpation atm. But they cant win If they skill cap is raised just to say 1mil and 1.5mil with boosters the gap will be bigger but ppl would still hit the cap i bet and then not play till next reset If ther is no cap no lifers will just skill up well ahead of casual players If we go EVE style ppl will cry that it takes days for 1 skill to hit 5
Tech Ohm Eaven L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 401	Posted - 2012.10.23 12:20:00 - [50] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Super Cargo wrote: I think the problem is that everything is being balanced around the beta. The relatively small player base and low-integration with EVE requires that it be a flat game. However, in the long run (i.e. Launch and integration with EVE) this game needs more depth when it comes to suits, weapons, and modules. Let's be honest, the mechanics won't be winning this game any awards, so they might as well focus on a very deep progression system. Focus on your strengths CCP. Right now I am feeling that the very low rewards has significnatly destroyed our player base partiicpation atm. But they cant win If they skill cap is raised just to say 1mil and 1.5mil with boosters the gap will be bigger but ppl would still hit the cap i bet and then not play till next reset If ther is no cap no lifers will just skill up well ahead of casual players If we go EVE style ppl will cry that it takes days for 1 skill to hit 5 HIGH sec. LOW sec. NULL sec. THREE DISTINCT areas! Thats whats missing!! Who cares about SP gained at what rate if you are UNDER 5 M SP then you are in high sec or starter areas and face equals. Over 5 M SP and you are in middle areas and face equals up to 10 M SP. Over 10 M SP and you are in advanced areas and face advanced enemies.

EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.10.23 12:25:00 - [51] - Quote Tech Ohm Eaven wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Super Cargo wrote: I think the problem is that everything is being balanced around the beta. The relatively small player base and low-integration with EVE requires that it be a flat game. However, in the long run (i.e. Launch and integration with EVE) this game needs more depth when it comes to suits, weapons, and modules. Let's be honest, the mechanics won't be winning this game any awards, so they might as well focus on a very deep progression system. Focus on your strengths CCP. Right now I am feeling that the very low rewards has significnatly destroyed our player base partiicpation atm. But they cant win If they skill cap is raised just to say 1mil and 1.5mil with boosters the gap will be bigger but ppl would still hit the cap i bet and then not play till next reset If ther is no cap no lifers will just skill up well ahead of casual players If we go EVE style ppl will cry that it takes days for 1 skill to hit 5 HIGH sec. LOW sec. NULL sec. THREE DISTINCT areas! Thats whats missing!! Who cares about SP gained at what rate if you are UNDER 5 M SP then you are in high sec or starter areas and face equals. Over 5 M SP and you are in middle areas and face equals up to 10 M SP. Over 10 M SP and you are in advanced areas and face advanced enemies. Yes but in EVE anyone can move wherever they want to no matter how much SP they have, i really dont see that coming into DUST tbh, maybe matchmaking lobbys but thats about it
Tech Ohm Eaven L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 401	Posted - 2012.10.23 12:29:00 - [52] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: Tech Ohm Eaven wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Super Cargo wrote: I think the problem is that everything is being balanced around the beta. The relatively small player base and low-integration with EVE requires that it be a flat game. However, in the long run (i.e. Launch and integration with EVE) this game needs more depth when it comes to suits, weapons, and modules. Let's be honest, the mechanics won't be winning this game any awards, so they might as well focus on a very deep progression system. Focus on your strengths CCP. Right now I am feeling that the very low rewards has significnatly destroyed our player base partiicpation atm. But they cant win If they skill cap is raised just to say 1mil and 1.5mil with boosters the gap will be bigger but ppl would still hit the cap i bet and then not play till next reset If ther is no cap no lifers will just skill up well ahead of casual players If we go EVE style ppl will cry that it takes days for 1 skill to hit 5 HIGH sec. LOW sec. NULL sec. THREE DISTINCT areas! What stops CCP from creating three starter Moons, three midpoint Moons and then clones can go anyplace they want once they pass the 10 M SP? Thats whats missing!! Who cares about SP gained at what rate if you are UNDER 5 M SP then you are in high sec or starter areas and face equals. Over 5 M SP and you are in middle areas and face equals up to 10 M SP. Over 10 M SP and you are in advanced areas and face advanced enemies. Yes but in EVE anyone can move wherever they want to no matter how much SP they have, i really dont see that coming into DUST tbh, maybe matchmaking lobbys but thats about it What stops CCP from creating three starter Moons, three midpoint Moons and then clones can go anyplace they want once they pass the 10 M SP? Thats whats missing!! Who cares about SP gained at what rate if you are UNDER 5 M SP then you are in high sec or starter areas and face equals. Over 5 M SP and you are in middle areas and face equals up to 10 M SP. Sorry wonky forums ate my posts.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.10.23 12:41:00 - [53] - Quote Thats not sandbox Thats forcing the players down a tunnel, some will never leave high sec and others will want to grief up ther when they want to and other will stay in null or do whatever they want to do
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.10.23 13:56:00 - [54] - Quote There's a massive load of crap in that topic.. So what ? In other FPS you get a massive difference between weapons? And you're surprised that a guy with even a basic rifle can kill you ? I'm not. Those minor advantages you get are what makes the difference combine to your individual skills. Nothing more. And they shouldnt be anything else. You keep trashing people with your full militia fit ? Without having skilled at all ? Well, play me and my squad and you'll feel the difference. 100% guaranteed.
Michael Cratar Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire 179	Posted - 2012.10.23 14:40:00 - [55] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Specter RND wrote: The fact is, when you use weapons of higher skill level they're not supposed to feel like you are Dominant over someone else because you've played longer. If someone has a Militia while you're running with a Duvolle Proto Assault Rifle its gonna go to whom has the most experience with the weapons and the necessary skill to make low end weapons work for them. The way CCP seems to be planning this is that even if you've played longer, you shouldn't have a overly huge edge over someone whom is a fresh clone. That doesn't mean that the weapons can't be stronger than the last, it just means that if you want that slight edge over someone, then go for it. No one ain't stopping you but its your loss if you die with something you can't afford to loose. As the old saying goes, Its not the weapon that kills people, its those who are handing the weapon. Otherwise, it would be just be another one of those games where if you played longer, you are immediately better than a new person. While I agree with most of the statement it just feels that stuff I am putting onto the suits has nearly no effect. Why put on armor plates? why shield extenders. You will answer more HP, and I answer back does the 100 more HP really matter? And I will say that if your not running out in the open trying to shoot people and not using cover, then yes. 100 more hp wont last long. but if your sticking with a group and using cover, then that 100hp can save you from tons of things. In case you don't understand I will explain. with 100 hp you can take 3 shots of a gek38 and have 1 hp left not counting in multipliers with that 100hp added onto your normal armor, you will have more time to run to cover or shoot back. Armor mods are not supposed to make you a scout a heavy but instead make you last longer in a fire fight. but only for a few shots. If your getting shot point blank you wont notice the diffrence. but if your taking cover and not bum rushing the enemy you will last waaaaaaaay longer. I agree with you on the shield mods. 22hp on standard is not very useful, ever. I use the shield recharge upgrade whatever it is called. The increase in shield replenished when recharging helps in tight situations. especially if your jumping cover to cover hideing from a sniper. The only thing I think they should buff is the heavy damage mod and the shield cap mods. The reason for buffing the shield cap mod is obious but as for the heavy damage mod. I think the multaplier should be increased slightly. i did the math with an enhanced damage mod on a standard hmg and a adv hmg. The damage increase with the standard is by .8. The increase with the adv hmg is by if i remember correctly 1.2. Even with an extra 1.2 damage, it's not very noticeable when your shooting 2,000 rounds a minute.
Dzark Kill Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 115	Posted - 2012.10.23 15:46:00 - [56] - Quote Agree with OP. The only fit for infantry is dmg mods, as many as you can fit. Armor reps in the other slots to help regen when you get to cover and the highest dmg weapon of choice. The only real options are 1) AV or not AV Andes but you have a fit for both and choose at spawn 2) nano, nanite or drop uplink. Again a fit for each unless your heavy or loggie.
xAckie Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 125	Posted - 2012.10.23 16:05:00 - [57] - Quote Tech Ohm Eaven wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: But they cant win If they skill cap is raised just to say 1mil and 1.5mil with boosters the gap will be bigger but ppl would still hit the cap i bet and then not play till next reset If ther is no cap no lifers will just skill up well ahead of casual players If we go EVE style ppl will cry that it takes days for 1 skill to hit 5 HIGH sec. LOW sec. NULL sec. THREE DISTINCT areas! What stops CCP from creating three starter Moons, three midpoint Moons and then clones can go anyplace they want once they pass the 10 M SP? Thats whats missing!! Who cares about SP gained at what rate if you are UNDER 5 M SP then you are in high sec or starter areas and face equals. Over 5 M SP and you are in middle areas and face equals up to 10 M SP. Over 10 M SP and you are in advanced areas and face advanced enemies. Yes but in EVE anyone can move wherever they want to no matter how much SP they have, i really dont see that coming into DUST tbh, maybe matchmaking lobbys but thats about it [/quote] What stops CCP from creating three starter Moons, three midpoint Moons and then clones can go anyplace they want once they pass the 10 M SP? Thats whats missing!! Who cares about SP gained at what rate if you are UNDER 5 M SP then you are in high sec or starter areas and face equals. Over 5 M SP and you are in middle areas and face equals up to 10 M SP. Sorry wonky forums ate my posts.[/quote] None of this makes sense. Even with this skill cap, a person who picks up the game a year after another player they will always be behind. If there is no way they can grind and play to build a basic player quicker than the current rate it will turn people off. The above doesnt stop no lifers - just improves the hand of who started first. Though I do wonder if the slow progression will mean/ is part of CCP intention to introduce SP augmentation slots - say assault at -ú10 per month gives you lvl 5 assault lvl 5 assault prof etc. @English: agree with your later post. 3 distinct areas does not make a sandbox. And why would you limit/ force where people want to play. People may only want to play in Null @ the OP the play is bland because of the big open maps with the speed nerf that has meant everything is slower and promotes further the zerging of groups or camping by snipers - which was already in game. And in response to your game theory stuff, I find there is little enjoyment/ point in playing if there are no SP rewards - the hamster on the wheel idea. Isk doesnt matter so much to me. Its more about building my character. As an aside,I am hoping the large maps exist because there will be large PvP games - otherwise I dont understand why they exist.
xAckie Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 125	Posted - 2012.10.23 16:08:00 - [58] - Quote Super Cargo wrote: I think the problem is that everything is being balanced around the beta. The relatively small player base and low-integration with EVE requires that it be a flat game. However, in the long run (i.e. Launch and integration with EVE) this game needs more depth when it comes to suits, weapons, and modules. Let's be honest, the mechanics won't be winning this game any awards, so they might as well focus on a very deep progression system. Focus on your strengths CCP. Honestly, if the mechanics aren't there (which is what the game is built on - its foundations) a progression system wont help.
Lead Squall Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 54	Posted - 2012.10.23 17:24:00 - [59] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I do not mind the HP squashing, CCP said they did it to shift focus to the modules. The problem with modules which I am declaring non-contributive. Also to that note, militia gear is OP and I am saying this as a heavy user of the damn things. I have to agree with you here. I run almost solely in free fits with militia modules. Weapons are at least nerfed a little bit compared to standard fare, but modules have slightly worse fitting requirements, but the same stats. Buff up your fitting skills and you can run around in militia gear all day that's just as good as meta 1. (which is what I do). militia gear is dirt cheap and doesn't require skills. If the militia is fine where it is at, then the meta 1 needs a buff. If meta 1 is fine, militia needs a nerf. I understand that new players need the chance to beat old players; I champion that cause endlessly. But, on the same token, there needs to be a reason to use meta 1 over militia gear and it can't be fitting based, unless you either nerf fitting skills, make them harder to obtain, or significantly affect fitting. (35 cpu vs 30 cpu won't cut it.) And maybe isk is a part of it (which is getting addressed, I hear) A full match will only by a few fully fitted meta 1 suits. (maybe 3 if you are lucky). Most people die more than three times in a match, making them go to militia gear and free fits. If a full match consistently netted people enough isk for 8-10 fully fitted meta 1 suits, then it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect people, once they have the skills, to be running at least meta 1.


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