how many runs on the BPC's i guess is the question...

also, no problem with this as long as all AUR gear is definitely not BPO or BPC

how many runs on the BPC's i guess is the question...

Seems reasonable, assuming the price is very low cause militia is something you use when you're planning on dying a lot.

To add some context, this change might not be permanent, but they want to test some things in the economy. They noticed there was too much ISK floating around in the last build and are exploring options to get a nice economic balance. Again, this change might not necessarily be permanent. They have heard and acknowledged that many players have misgviings about this and CCP CmdrWang came on IRC to help address the concerns of players.

This is a test to gain numbers on the economy. It is not an indication of how things will be forever. As with everything in the beta, anything can change at any time. Player feedback is always encouraged, and they definitely want us to let them know how we find the market/economy with the changes active. If you don't like it, definitely tell them about your experience!


But let's not form a lynch mob until test is over :)

What do you want them to be?

AUR gear should be like the other tier gear... pay per item, just drop the prices or what ever, but god forbid DUST becomes Pay2Win.

In my own little box, I can deal with AUR gear existing, but it should not be the standard that all others are measured by.

I've read the arguments over the AUR gear, all i can say is that it Does seem to offer better fittings options, which in itself is an advantage.... so given this is a BETA sure make them BPO's/BPC's... but when the game goes live its pay per item.

IMHO : /

Also, this change won't hit for another month at least.

from the IRC

[09:12:41] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> so if you find a fit that works well and that is something you want to play with a lot....
[09:12:58] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> then you can edit your starter kits to that particular fit
[09:13:17] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> and in the process you've spent a little isk on buy some milita bpcs
[09:13:47] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> other than vehicles, this should hold true for infantry fits
[09:14:15] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> is that really too expensive to do?

[09:18:48] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> so let's say that you are a new player or say we are restarting after a wipe
[09:19:03] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> you have your starter kits which dont run out
[09:19:24] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> you play some matches and have some ideas on how to tweak the starter fits
[09:19:36] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> so you buy some militia bpc and try it out
[09:19:51] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> and let's say that you died a lot and need to buy some more bpcs
[09:20:13] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> but you ran out of isk, so you switch back to the starter fit you had to make some more money
[09:20:45] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> in that case you will not be overly taxed by having to buy militia bpcs agreed?

So the starter fittings are going to be free but other milita stuff being bolted on such as militia CPU modules and stuff BPCs

Thoughts?

I personally dont like it.

Bad Idea, I was already PO'd to find that Militia vehicles are now BPC's making it impossible to have dropships when I need them. Militia stuff should be for experimenting with, so you know which skills your going to dump hours of your time into. If I have to grind matches for cash for hours just to buy Militia gear I can honestly say I won't play... which irks me as I already bought the Merc pack lol.

agree with that

from the IRC

[09:12:41] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> so if you find a fit that works well and that is something you want to play with a lot....
[09:12:58] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> then you can edit your starter kits to that particular fit
[09:13:17] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> and in the process you've spent a little isk on buy some milita bpcs
[09:13:47] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> other than vehicles, this should hold true for infantry fits
[09:14:15] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> is that really too expensive to do?

[09:18:48] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> so let's say that you are a new player or say we are restarting after a wipe
[09:19:03] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> you have your starter kits which dont run out
[09:19:24] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> you play some matches and have some ideas on how to tweak the starter fits
[09:19:36] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> so you buy some militia bpc and try it out
[09:19:51] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> and let's say that you died a lot and need to buy some more bpcs
[09:20:13] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> but you ran out of isk, so you switch back to the starter fit you had to make some more money
[09:20:45] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> in that case you will not be overly taxed by having to buy militia bpcs agreed?

So the starter fittings are going to be free but other milita stuff being bolted on such as militia CPU modules and stuff BPCs

Thoughts?

I personally dont like it.

Sees an economy thread, drops into the economy thread!

Yes, militia items will become consumable in the next patch. They'll also be very inexpensive and should be easily affordable even if you happen to go 0/10 multiple matches in a row. Starter fits will never become consumable and will always be there for you to fall back on.

Overall, the philosophy with the reward system is that you should be able to comfortably play using militia and standard gear and still be earning money most of the time. The intention isn't to bleed you dry, since that doesn't make for a very fun game :) The low earnings after we patched weren't intentional and it later turned out that there was a fairly nasty bug hiding in the reward system: militia BPOs not contributing to the rewards at all and thus as everyone was playing with them, the overall rewards were consistently too way low.

Since we couldn't fix the broken code, we temporarily upped the base reward level.The rewards that you're now getting after the hotfix are more on the level that we intended. Proper fix will be in when we patch, but the reward level should remain fairly close to what you're seeing now. Pester me if it doesn't, it's my job to pay your wages.

Sees an economy thread, drops into the economy thread!

Yes, militia items will become consumable in the next patch. They'll also be very inexpensive and should be easily affordable even if you happen to go 0/10 multiple matches in a row. Starter fits will never become consumable and will always be there for you to fall back on.

Overall, the philosophy with the reward system is that you should be able to comfortably play using militia and standard gear and still be earning money most of the time. The intention isn't to bleed you dry, since that doesn't make for a very fun game :) The low earnings after we patched weren't intentional and it later turned out that there was a fairly nasty bug hiding in the reward system: militia BPOs not contributing to the rewards at all and thus as everyone was playing with them, the overall rewards were consistently too way low.

Since we couldn't fix the broken code, we temporarily upped the base reward level.The rewards that you're now getting after the hotfix are more on the level that we intended. Proper fix will be in when we patch, but the reward level should remain fairly close to what you're seeing now. Pester me if it doesn't, it's my job to pay your wages.

Sees an economy thread, drops into the economy thread!

Yes, militia items will become consumable in the next patch. They'll also be very inexpensive and should be easily affordable even if you happen to go 0/10 multiple matches in a row. Starter fits will never become consumable and will always be there for you to fall back on.

I question the point of not making them free if they are so cheap though.

I question the point of not making them free if they are so cheap though.

The economist in me gets queasy with too many free, permanent items in what is eventually supposed to be a player-driven economy :)

The economist in me gets queasy with too many free, permanent items in what is eventually supposed to be a player-driven economy :)

I just realized why BPOs were a bad idea as they were. Hopefully when you guys add industry side to dust this will be balanced out.
The economist in me is quite turned on by Eve's economy and wishes for something similar for dust.

What about the Skinweave suits? How will these changes effect them?

The economist in me gets queasy with too many free, permanent items in what is eventually supposed to be a player-driven economy :)

If you have no bed rock to fall back on there is a potential at one time you may not be able to play dust because you have no cash and your bpc's are all expended.

There needs to be a safety net for new players to fall back on.

Starter fits will never become consumable and will always be there for you to fall back on.

Tbh if ISK is their worry thats theres too much floating around, this build solved that. 22 freaking assault SMGS cost me around 100k I believe. Thats just standard assault. Not even a standard dropsuit. The only thing on my suit thats BPC is the SMG. The rest is freaking miltia. I still worry about money, if I want to upgrade to double standard SMGs then it costs me 9,000 isk Per suit. That gives me a bunch of deaths per game if I want to break even, but if I decide to ever upgrade to standard gear, now I am costing, like 30,000 ISK per dropsuit just for all standard gear.

Militia needs to stay BPO imo, plus the starter fits are ********. Changing them is NECESSARY to even being able to be effective.

The economist in me gets queasy with too many free, permanent items in what is eventually supposed to be a player-driven economy :)

This is a bad idea. It is hard to say exactly why it is a bad idea because I am not sure what problem they are trying to solve but I do know that the militia gear is nice because it allows a player to experiment with different play styles without risking lots of money.

It also lets us make some money if we need to make some money on the instant battle scene.

If they are concerned about everyone using too much militia gear, that will change quickly once the outcomes of the matches actually matter and they are being fought for real territory. People will start using more of their high end gear when more of the matches actually matter.

People play games to relieve stress. I am not trying to give myself an ulcer because all of my equipment is costing me money no matter what. Sometimes you want to just goof around.

To add some context, this change might not be permanent, but they want to test some things in the economy. They noticed there was too much ISK floating around in the last build and are exploring options to get a nice economic balance. Again, this change might not necessarily be permanent. They have heard and acknowledged that many players have misgviings about this and CCP CmdrWang came on IRC to help address the concerns of players.

This is a test to gain numbers on the economy. It is not an indication of how things will be forever. As with everything in the beta, anything can change at any time. Player feedback is always encouraged, and they definitely want us to let them know how we find the market/economy with the changes active. If you don't like it, definitely tell them about your experience!


But let's not form a lynch mob until test is over :)

The isk must flow! Dust will have massive inflation if militia gear is free forever. Make it depletable, and let the strong survive through rewards. Don't peg all rewards on the current NPC games. Keep them low and make people group up and join corps.

My (current) issue with the discussion we had on IRC boils down to how Wang talked about this change. It felt like he wanted the starter fits to be where you go to make money, and that even militia fits should have the ability to bleed you dry (if you're bad enough). My problem with this is, the starter fits are starter fits. I should never have to go back to them once I've progressed beyond.

My stance is I believe what Grid was saying. Even if you go 0/10 in militia gear, you shouldn't go broke. That's how that needs to be priced. It should cut up the rewards you receive, but not drain your wallet. Standard gear should be priced such that you can have a few borderline ok games and some bad games thrown in and still not be hurting for cash. Higher stuff, I'm fine with being more expensive (it's probably way too expensive right now).

As it stands, though, the current prices of militia gear are absurd if we're expected to restock per death. My current setup uses a modified starter assault fit, and has purchased shield extender, armor repairer, SMG and nanite injector. That's 4 items that comes to 8840 ISK. At current payouts, that'd last me about 7 deaths per match to break even or barely turn a profit. While I can manage that, many others can't.

That is my problem with this idea, how negatively it will affect the lower-tier players. The people who aren't the top 10 leaderboard people, whose "bad" game isn't only 5 deaths, are going to have a very hard time making any progress gear-wise if it's not made incredibly cheap. Not only that, but those of us who will manage just fine with this change will just create a larger gap in the gear that's used between the top players and everyone else. While you're breaking even or barely turning a profit with a few militia mods, I'm going to be moving on to standard and advanced gear, and keeping you in a state of financial hell.

Solution 1: Make the militia items very cheap, on the order of a few hundred ISK maximum each (you have up to 7 slots to fit when customizing the current starter fits, that adds up); the drop uplinks (which NO starter fit uses) are 4960 (!!!) and weapons range from 960 to 3600 (that 3600 being the swarm launcher, which you WILL be the primary target if you shoot that thing at my tank, so expect to die if you ever bring that out against anybody). That is way too much for bottom tier gear. (the average game has been giving me a payout of about 60-80k for reference, and lately seems to be pushing up toward 100k as people upgrade or LAV spam)

Solution 2: Make a LOT of new starter fits. Sure, keep the 4 we have now, just let more be purchaseable, and have them actually be fits people might use. Let the community design some and pick your favorite 10-20 and let the BPOs be purchaseable for something like 10-50k ISK. The current starter fits look like they were fitted via the dartboard method, and there's not a single one I wouldn't customize.

Solution 3: Allow us to sell salvage to NPC markets. I feel this is more something that should exist to allow people the finances to go from militia to standard/advanced, though. Also, it's not a reliable source of income. I tend to always get garbage salvage, and while I've gotten a few dropship and LAV drops, I generally run 10-20 games in a row of no salvage or something like 2 basic armor repairers or nanohives, stuff that won't even be noticed if I was able to sell it.

I'll say it again: the starter fits should be starter fits, not what we have to rely on if we want to make money. A fully customized militia setup should fit that role, and in my opinion the standard gear should also be able to fit that role later down the line. Don't implement this in a way that only screws the little guy, because that's all it's going to do. It isn't fun to play a game where you access skills and then still don't have the money to use what those skills unlocked, and the people put in that position will leave.

It'll never happen. 90% of us console players will be on to the next game before they even get DUST released. Most of us hate the overly complex market/skill/ISK system as it is. The only way you will attract new consolers is with a basic free loadout, crappy or not. The attention span in this market is MUCH smaller than you folks seem to think. I know most people who play EvE are intelligent adults. You may be motivated here by your love of a game NO ONE in the console world has heard of, and you haven't impressed the consolers. One needs the soul of an accountant (or an economist) to enjoy any part of this game except the combat. No consoler wants to "join" anything, we aren't even interested in playing w a regular squad. We just want to log on, spawn in & frag some people for an hour. Shouldn't need a squad or team, we all know what we are ther for, and mmost regular shooter players can operate as a squad without even using mic.

For the record my IQ is half again and more of what an average person has, and even I find this game boring when not in-game. I would rather read a technical journal on spallation mechanics....

You should speak for yourself, and not for all console gamers. Not all console gamers are casual gamers.

CCP games are not for everyone, and it sounds like DUST is not for you. I'm not sure why you're here, but it'd probably be better for everyone if you went back to CoD instead of arguing for dumbing down DUST.

For new players to not be discouraged when trying to learn this game how about having the militia gear be free up to a certain Skill Level cap then its back to the normal BPC? By that time they should have a grasp on how the economy is flowing and they shouldn't be dieing all the time so every one is happy(er).

edit: underlined are added in edit.

Lets assume one is veteran player, has one skilled merc and player market(buy/sell and transferr ISK) has been implemented.


1.) Create new merc and play to that SP/skill level cap using those free items and hoard ISK to your self by playing instant matches. Since you are veteran player in a new charachter you most likely perform quite well even with starter gear and get good ISK and slavage, because being new char you endup agains new chars/players.

2.) Once you have Reached to that SP level, that militia items become BPC, sell all your salvage and items to get ISK and transfer all your ISK to your main charachter.

3.) delete this 'new' charachter and start again from step one and make profit.

I like it. Death really should always have meaning, shouldn't it? KD whoring aside, having militia gear be very cheap for players but still something they have to spend money on if they die enough times is a good compromise.

How about we just leave the starter fits as infinite.

Then we sell the Militia stuff as BPC's, on the order of maybe 500-1000 isk per item.

Then they RE-INTRODUCE the Militia BPO's, but have them cost, say, 100x what the BPC's do.

Starting out, you'd have enough money to get one or two, but then you'd have to fight for more. And in most cases, it's cheaper to buy the BPC's. Every couple of matches would let you get a new BPO, so you could buy around and try all the other items first and pick what you want, or just keep paying as you upgrade your skills.

im only a rookie, but i noticed the militia gear was inferior to most basic items... so when im skilled enough & rich enough, will i ever look back at militia gear? i doubt it with the fine array of arsenal i can view now...

It just occurred to me that making milita gear cost money means we'll see a huge reduction in LAV spam.

I'm on board now!

How about we just leave the starter fits as infinite.

Then we sell the Militia stuff as BPC's, on the order of maybe 500-1000 isk per item.

Then they RE-INTRODUCE the Militia BPO's, but have them cost, say, 100x what the BPC's do.

Starting out, you'd have enough money to get one or two, but then you'd have to fight for more. And in most cases, it's cheaper to buy the BPC's. Every couple of matches would let you get a new BPO, so you could buy around and try all the other items first and pick what you want, or just keep paying as you upgrade your skills.

CCP Nothin confirmed that the starter fits will be infinite here. He also confirmed that militia gear will be so cheap you never have to worry about being unable to afford it, no matter how bad you are.

Yeah, I concur. The game will be "free to play"- i.e. download. From there, imo, it should be Isk or AUR. No free rides. I use militia modules from time to time to balance out CPU/PG on my suits. I at times might have ISK/AUR & militia gear on one suit, and when I die its all gone... no prob. I dont see why some should have inexhaustible supplies of 'free stuff' while they hoard ISK. Let's not whine about everything CCP does, they alone have the big picture of what this game is yet to be.

It just occurred to me that making milita gear cost money means we'll see a huge reduction in LAV spam.

I'm on board now!