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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
   |
Posted - 2012.08.22 17:29:00 -
[31] - Quote
I like it. Death really should always have meaning, shouldn't it? KD whoring aside, having militia gear be very cheap for players but still something they have to spend money on if they die enough times is a good compromise. |
Knarf Black
Subdreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
397
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 18:04:00 -
[32] - Quote
I like the current system just fine. They'd have to make militia gear so cheap to keep n00bs from going bankrupt that it might as well be free.
I'm rolling all militia stuff right now because I keep blowing money on expensive skillbooks, the game magically crashes whenever I take out my Aurum gear, and I like not having to worry about restocking. (Seems like the fewer menus I open, the more stable the game runs.)
Adding a token restocking cost to militia gear just adds the (admittedly minor) chore of restocking to it. |
Rhadiem
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
496
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 18:27:00 -
[33] - Quote
Hm, as much as I like running around in free unlimited use gear, civilian stuff in EVE (which have no skill requirements) aren't unlimited use. You can't pre-build a nice little ship using all free stuff, you have to buy it off others who looted it and put it up for sale.
Give us ISK purchased militia BPO's and call it good. That way we can have unlimited crap gear, but make us pay for what we use.
It'd be terrible for broke people's KDR, but people could still run around in presets. We just need some presets that don't suck. Swarm launchers on heavies? No AR's or shotguns on scouts?
Honestly, I'd rather see time spent on more useful parts of the game than this.
Give us gunships, STAT, Mr CCP Dev. ;) |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2283
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 18:31:00 -
[34] - Quote
lolCCP
game choices continue to amaze me
starting to get really worried about if this game will even last 3 months... |
Rhadiem
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
496
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 18:38:00 -
[35] - Quote
I think the tier 0 and tier 1 stuff should be purchasable in BPO format for unlimited use, after you paid a tidy sum for it.
This is the "fallback" position for when you're down on your luck or just screwing around.
Beyond that, the intermediate and prototype gear, I feel should be single purchase only. Losing that should mean something.
There are a ton more deaths in Dust than EVE so some of EVE's brutal losses shouldn't be so drastic in Dust where gear is much smaller and much more disposable/manufacturable. |
Skytt Syysch
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
235
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 18:58:00 -
[36] - Quote
My (current) issue with the discussion we had on IRC boils down to how Wang talked about this change. It felt like he wanted the starter fits to be where you go to make money, and that even militia fits should have the ability to bleed you dry (if you're bad enough). My problem with this is, the starter fits are starter fits. I should never have to go back to them once I've progressed beyond.
My stance is I believe what Grid was saying. Even if you go 0/10 in militia gear, you shouldn't go broke. That's how that needs to be priced. It should cut up the rewards you receive, but not drain your wallet. Standard gear should be priced such that you can have a few borderline ok games and some bad games thrown in and still not be hurting for cash. Higher stuff, I'm fine with being more expensive (it's probably way too expensive right now).
As it stands, though, the current prices of militia gear are absurd if we're expected to restock per death. My current setup uses a modified starter assault fit, and has purchased shield extender, armor repairer, SMG and nanite injector. That's 4 items that comes to 8840 ISK. At current payouts, that'd last me about 7 deaths per match to break even or barely turn a profit. While I can manage that, many others can't.
That is my problem with this idea, how negatively it will affect the lower-tier players. The people who aren't the top 10 leaderboard people, whose "bad" game isn't only 5 deaths, are going to have a very hard time making any progress gear-wise if it's not made incredibly cheap. Not only that, but those of us who will manage just fine with this change will just create a larger gap in the gear that's used between the top players and everyone else. While you're breaking even or barely turning a profit with a few militia mods, I'm going to be moving on to standard and advanced gear, and keeping you in a state of financial hell.
Solution 1: Make the militia items very cheap, on the order of a few hundred ISK maximum each (you have up to 7 slots to fit when customizing the current starter fits, that adds up); the drop uplinks (which NO starter fit uses) are 4960 (!!!) and weapons range from 960 to 3600 (that 3600 being the swarm launcher, which you WILL be the primary target if you shoot that thing at my tank, so expect to die if you ever bring that out against anybody). That is way too much for bottom tier gear. (the average game has been giving me a payout of about 60-80k for reference, and lately seems to be pushing up toward 100k as people upgrade or LAV spam)
Solution 2: Make a LOT of new starter fits. Sure, keep the 4 we have now, just let more be purchaseable, and have them actually be fits people might use. Let the community design some and pick your favorite 10-20 and let the BPOs be purchaseable for something like 10-50k ISK. The current starter fits look like they were fitted via the dartboard method, and there's not a single one I wouldn't customize.
Solution 3: Allow us to sell salvage to NPC markets. I feel this is more something that should exist to allow people the finances to go from militia to standard/advanced, though. Also, it's not a reliable source of income. I tend to always get garbage salvage, and while I've gotten a few dropship and LAV drops, I generally run 10-20 games in a row of no salvage or something like 2 basic armor repairers or nanohives, stuff that won't even be noticed if I was able to sell it.
I'll say it again: the starter fits should be starter fits, not what we have to rely on if we want to make money. A fully customized militia setup should fit that role, and in my opinion the standard gear should also be able to fit that role later down the line. Don't implement this in a way that only screws the little guy, because that's all it's going to do. It isn't fun to play a game where you access skills and then still don't have the money to use what those skills unlocked, and the people put in that position will leave. |
Rhadiem
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
496
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 19:16:00 -
[37] - Quote
Give people enough isk to have a 0/20 losing game and break even and I'd be fine with paying for every game. Surely the most stubborn cannon fodder would get wise after a while.
Salvage sales would be a bonus, since that at this point seems to be a pure gamble. |
Terram Nenokal
BetaMax.
115
|
Posted - 2012.08.22 22:15:00 -
[38] - Quote
I really wouldn't mind this as long as its cheap enough for someone to afford a really awful match with it. Like 10x fully custom militia suits for 10k. Or something. vOv |
fenrir storm
Tronhadar Free Guard
Minmatar Republic
314
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 00:06:00 -
[39] - Quote
The average new player to this game would stick at it for about a week if this idea goes active ,you can just imagine the joy on their faces as they go up against better equiped player and lose and have to pay for the privelige of purchaseing more starter gear with the little isk that they make |
Leo Plaude
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
11
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Posted - 2012.08.23 00:35:00 -
[40] - Quote
What concerns me is... Going Bankrupt
In Eve - Bankruptcy means you get in a FREE noobship and run around for a few minutes/hours and make enough cash to start flying a normal simple-fit frigate. Then you use that ONE frigate to make enough money to move onto the ship and playstyle of your choice.
No matter how poorly you play EVE, you can always fly a noobship and get back on your feet.
In DUST- Bankrupcy means you get in a FREE militia dropsuit and run around for a few minutes/hours and make enough cash to start modifying that fit with pay-per-use gear (BPCs). Then you take the modified fit and PAY everytime you spawn.
Paying for Militia Gear only makes sense if... I take that back, I can't think of how it makes sense. You can pay for one ship in EVE and realistically NEVER LOOSE IT. But in DUST, you're going to die (usually a lot) even if you do win.
If CCP lets me spawn in an empty battlefield and pull out a miner's pick and start gathering minerals or shoot womprats with a rusty bb-gun and sell their meat to cover my expenses of running in Milittia gear... I MIGHT consider it...
But frankly, no major console shooter (that I can think of) makes you pay in-game-cash to ENTER the battlefield. No other console shooter PUNISHES you for dieing. I understand we don't want DUST to be like other shooters.... but we also don't want DUST to be WORSE than other shooters.
If I go bankrupt in DUST, I'm more likely to restart my character and try again than spend more than 1 hour in the starter fits. If I go bankrupt again, I'm just going to quit... I didn't put any money into this game, the only thing I spent on it was time, but I'm going to stop spending even that if it becomes impossible to progress because I have a negative fake-internet-dollars balance on my account. |
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Domingo Cervezas
Cult of the Warrior
15
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Posted - 2012.08.23 03:48:00 -
[41] - Quote
Bad idea. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 12:29:00 -
[42] - Quote
This isn't a bad idea, as long as there are more starter fit options.
Don't ONLY give us a Starter Scout with a Sniper Rifle. Let us have that OR a fitting with a Swarm Launcher.
Don't ONLY give us a Starter Heavy with a Swarm Launcher. Let us have a fitting with an AR.
Don't ONLY give us one Starter Logi suit with one loadout. Let us have a few with different combinations of equipment.
Or they could give us the Starter Fits, and a couple of Militia weapons (maybe just Sniper/AR/Swarm) as BPOs.
New players need more freedom to experiment than the current starter fits give. |
dust badger
BetaMax.
283
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 12:32:00 -
[43] - Quote
i thought this was the whole point of militia gear, its stuff you are supplied by the corp you are fighting for?
i think this is a bad idea guys |
Kazeno Rannaa
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
145
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 16:42:00 -
[44] - Quote
jenza aranda wrote:from the IRC
[09:12:41] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> so if you find a fit that works well and that is something you want to play with a lot....
[09:12:58] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> then you can edit your starter kits to that particular fit
[09:13:17] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> and in the process you've spent a little isk on buy some milita bpcs
[09:13:47] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> other than vehicles, this should hold true for infantry fits
[09:14:15] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> is that really too expensive to do?
[09:18:48] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> so let's say that you are a new player or say we are restarting after a wipe
[09:19:03] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> you have your starter kits which dont run out
[09:19:24] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> you play some matches and have some ideas on how to tweak the starter fits
[09:19:36] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> so you buy some militia bpc and try it out
[09:19:51] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> and let's say that you died a lot and need to buy some more bpcs
[09:20:13] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> but you ran out of isk, so you switch back to the starter fit you had to make some more money
[09:20:45] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> in that case you will not be overly taxed by having to buy militia bpcs agreed?
So the starter fittings are going to be free but other milita stuff being bolted on such as militia CPU modules and stuff BPCs
Thoughts?
I personally dont like it.
I have to personally agree with Enza,
The fact that militia gear has been bpo is what allows us to make money off these matches that aren't really paying sh*t. Yet if this is the direction of it (much like in EVE where militia/civilian gear are bpc's) then they should be cheap as sh*t. The current cost of the gear in comparison to a persons propensity to die in DUST versus a capsuleers likelihood of dying is dramatically less.
So in reflection, I would say maybe keep the increased cost of the militia gear and maintain the fats that they are BPO's. |
ThreeXB
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
7
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 16:47:00 -
[45] - Quote
Bad idea, i really like having some basic "default" setups that i dont have to worry about restocking gear |
Ehbon Vonrahd
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 19:54:00 -
[46] - Quote
Bad Idea, I was already PO'd to find that Militia vehicles are now BPC's making it impossible to have dropships when I need them. Militia stuff should be for experimenting with, so you know which skills your going to dump hours of your time into. If I have to grind matches for cash for hours just to buy Militia gear I can honestly say I won't play... which irks me as I already bought the Merc pack lol. |
Ehbon Vonrahd
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 19:56:00 -
[47] - Quote
Ehbon Vonrahd wrote:Bad Idea, I was already PO'd to find that Militia vehicles are now BPC's making it impossible to have dropships when I need them. Militia stuff should be for experimenting with, so you know which skills your going to dump hours of your time into. If I have to grind matches for cash for hours just to buy Militia gear I can honestly say I won't play... which irks me as I already bought the Merc pack lol.
On a side note though I do like the "default buillds" and how you can edit them now. |
Etero Narciss
Seraphim Initiative.
CRONOS.
112
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 20:11:00 -
[48] - Quote
Well, one issue with militia gear (outside starter fits) is that militia gear is basically just standard gear with higher PG/CPU needs. Really, how many people are actually using the Standard gear when they can use the militia stuff free forever? There are very few examples of Militia gear being objectively worse than Standard, and that's usually be a small margin (like the magazine size difference between the Militia and Standard Assault Rifles).
I personally would not mind Militia stuff costing isk, as long as it's still cheaper than Standard stuff due to said higher fitting requirements |
Goric Rumis
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
80
|
Posted - 2012.08.23 21:39:00 -
[49] - Quote
As far as I can tell, this is really just the wrong way to solve the problem of people using nothing but militia gear most of the time. And by the way, we don't even know whether this will be a problem until the real economy hits, and equipment prices start operating under supply-and-demand. Right now all the prices are artificial, including the money you get from a match. If regular equipment is too expensive relative to income, militia equipment will be used a whole lot more. This will require a lot of tweaking to get militia gear use down to a reasonable level. |
Terror Knightsbane
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
20
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Posted - 2012.08.23 22:30:00 -
[50] - Quote
Its a great system as it is to get you started and not have to worry about forgetting to restock, or running out of isk coz you were buying some nice items such as the HMG but then facing a two tank convoy for a game, needing skillbooks that are isk heavy etc...
I'd say if it aint broke, dont fix it, fix the invalid bug instead!!!
ps - up the isk reward and this becomes a non issue as no-one wants to run militia kit really, lets face it its ****! |
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 16:31:00 -
[51] - Quote
Seriously, I'm repeating myself here, but this COULD be a good idea.
We need AT LEAST two starter fits for each suit type. Preferably 3.
If they do that, and make them actually unique and different, then I'll be happy to see Miliita gear as BPCs with lower prices than they have at present.
At the moment, when you're broke, the ONLY option for a Scout is to take a Sniper fitting. For how I prefer to play shooters, the Scout is bordering on too slow, and forget any other class, but I DON'T DO SNIPERS. If I screw up and go bankrupt, and I'm forced to play sniper or slow down, I'm NOT going to be playing, I'm going to be wiping my character and starting again, because that would be less of a frustrating idea.
If they give us TWO Scout fittings, Recon (the current one) and Medic (with a Shotgun or SMG and a Repair Tool), that would be great. I wouldn't mind an Anti-Vehicle default with a Swarm Launcher and sidearm (preferably SMG) as well. Logi really needs at least 3 starter fits. Alter the current "Triage" fitting to be Repair Tool/Nano Injector, and add "Resupply" with Repair Tool/Nanohive or Injector/Nanohive, then have a "Support" starter fitting with Nanohives, REs and a Swarm Launcher, or some other combination that would work competently for a frontline Logi suit. Assault really needs a starter AV fitting, and more importantly, we need a Heavy starter that ACTUALLY HAS A HEAVY WEAPON. |
Shiro Mokuzan
220
|
Posted - 2012.08.24 18:28:00 -
[52] - Quote
I like it. Militia gear is like EVE civilian gear--it requires no skills, but is not unlimited.
Starter fits are like rookie ships--they require no skill and are given for free. They're basically so you can never be unable to undock with no ship.
It's how militia HAVs and dropshps are now. |
Shiro Mokuzan
220
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 08:34:00 -
[53] - Quote
Whoops double post. |
Rusty Shallows
Creative Killers
11
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 18:03:00 -
[54] - Quote
Vehicles in general shouldn't be BPO anyways. The free militia DS was getting all kinds of abuse in the earlier Aug build. The only thing that stings right now is having to buy something for the turrets on top of the 220k isk... you know because everyone just loves those free small blaster turrets... |
Linus D'roso
1
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Posted - 2012.09.01 22:04:00 -
[55] - Quote
The isk must flow! Dust will have massive inflation if militia gear is free forever. Make it depletable, and let the strong survive through rewards. Don't peg all rewards on the current NPC games. Keep them low and make people group up and join corps. |
RolyatDerTeufel
D3ath D3alers
RISE of LEGION
1648
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 22:42:00 -
[56] - Quote
Jedd Brown wrote:Rasatsu wrote:Seems reasonable, assuming the price is very low cause militia is something you use when you're planning on dying a lot. agree with that
I hope its cheap... |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.09.05 22:19:00 -
[57] - Quote
jenza aranda wrote:from the IRC
[09:12:41] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> so if you find a fit that works well and that is something you want to play with a lot....
[09:12:58] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> then you can edit your starter kits to that particular fit
[09:13:17] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> and in the process you've spent a little isk on buy some milita bpcs
[09:13:47] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> other than vehicles, this should hold true for infantry fits
[09:14:15] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> is that really too expensive to do?
[09:18:48] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> so let's say that you are a new player or say we are restarting after a wipe
[09:19:03] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> you have your starter kits which dont run out
[09:19:24] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> you play some matches and have some ideas on how to tweak the starter fits
[09:19:36] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> so you buy some militia bpc and try it out
[09:19:51] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> and let's say that you died a lot and need to buy some more bpcs
[09:20:13] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> but you ran out of isk, so you switch back to the starter fit you had to make some more money
[09:20:45] <@[CCP]CmdrWang> in that case you will not be overly taxed by having to buy militia bpcs agreed?
So the starter fittings are going to be free but other milita stuff being bolted on such as militia CPU modules and stuff BPCs
Thoughts?
I personally dont like it.
Even if the stats were of a lower grade I personally think there need to be BPO versions for every basic suit and fit to allow new players to test and taste all the types/options before they spend skills/isk into a role and end up frustrated/not having fun. Forcing too high an entry cost on new players will kill game growth and participation. And in Dust you're even more likely to lose fits, gear, etc than in EVE. I love the idea of choices, and losses mattering, I fully support that but I think making militia gear BPC instead of BPO is going too far. Maybe, maybe with a hefty reduction to the ISK cost, but even then I find the idea dubious.
New characters, and even more so new players need to have a method by which they can participate without losing more ISK than they're able to make. They'll already be at a disadvantage I see no added merit to making that disadvantage any more extreme (this will become even more compellingly true once EVE/Dust econs are linked and again even more true when Dust is in 0.0 Sec. Anyone new is going to have a rough time making their way as it stands. CCP don't make it even harder).
0.02 ISK
EDIT: I can see BPCs for vehicles, I might even see the method if all the default gear were able to be swapped around between suits etc so you could still build at least a somewhat custom fit at base level. Otherwise it will limit the ability of new players to try new things until much later in their game play (i.e. when skilled up more) and even then it opens the door to more frequent skilling into something that turns out not to be their desired fit/playstyle. Meaningful choices yes, consequences for losses yes, forcing new players to bear a heavier burden no. Because it won't be those already part of an established Corp, or who have fat piles of ISK/experience who will be hindered by this it will be first and foremost those who are new to the game and trying to find their feet. |
J'Jor Da'Wg
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
648
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 01:51:00 -
[58] - Quote
Tbh if ISK is their worry thats theres too much floating around, this build solved that. 22 freaking assault SMGS cost me around 100k I believe. Thats just standard assault. Not even a standard dropsuit. The only thing on my suit thats BPC is the SMG. The rest is freaking miltia. I still worry about money, if I want to upgrade to double standard SMGs then it costs me 9,000 isk Per suit. That gives me a bunch of deaths per game if I want to break even, but if I decide to ever upgrade to standard gear, now I am costing, like 30,000 ISK per dropsuit just for all standard gear.
Militia needs to stay BPO imo, plus the starter fits are ********. Changing them is NECESSARY to even being able to be effective. |
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CCP Nothin
C C P
C C P Alliance
177
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 03:59:00 -
[59] - Quote
Sees an economy thread, drops into the economy thread!
Yes, militia items will become consumable in the next patch. They'll also be very inexpensive and should be easily affordable even if you happen to go 0/10 multiple matches in a row. Starter fits will never become consumable and will always be there for you to fall back on.
Overall, the philosophy with the reward system is that you should be able to comfortably play using militia and standard gear and still be earning money most of the time. The intention isn't to bleed you dry, since that doesn't make for a very fun game :) The low earnings after we patched weren't intentional and it later turned out that there was a fairly nasty bug hiding in the reward system: militia BPOs not contributing to the rewards at all and thus as everyone was playing with them, the overall rewards were consistently too way low.
Since we couldn't fix the broken code, we temporarily upped the base reward level.The rewards that you're now getting after the hotfix are more on the level that we intended. Proper fix will be in when we patch, but the reward level should remain fairly close to what you're seeing now. Pester me if it doesn't, it's my job to pay your wages.
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KingBlade82
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
56
|
Posted - 2012.09.06 04:13:00 -
[60] - Quote
i do not agree with consumable bad items i think everyone should have perm crappy gear but i guess it wont effect me since i have skinweave??? so honestly im not gonna fight too hard someone else do it lol
EDIT: also hopefully u changed it so it doesnt say militia because when i first learned about gear it stated militia was a pay once kinda deal
EDIT EDIT: guess i can be ok with starter fits but not really for perm items ill have to see what happens in game when u guys release it |
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