DUST Search - CCP wants to make militia modules BPCs

Shiro Mokuzan wrote:

Reb El wrote:

Linus D'roso wrote:

The isk must flow! Dust will have massive inflation if militia gear is free forever. Make it depletable, and let the strong survive through rewards. Don't peg all rewards on the current NPC games. Keep them low and make people group up and join corps.

It'll never happen. 90% of us console players will be on to the next game before they even get DUST released. Most of us hate the overly complex market/skill/ISK system as it is. The only way you will attract new consolers is with a basic free loadout, crappy or not. The attention span in this market is MUCH smaller than you folks seem to think. I know most people who play EvE are intelligent adults. You may be motivated here by your love of a game NO ONE in the console world has heard of, and you haven't impressed the consolers. One needs the soul of an accountant (or an economist) to enjoy any part of this game except the combat. No consoler wants to "join" anything, we aren't even interested in playing w a regular squad. We just want to log on, spawn in & frag some people for an hour. Shouldn't need a squad or team, we all know what we are ther for, and mmost regular shooter players can operate as a squad without even using mic.

For the record my IQ is half again and more of what an average person has, and even I find this game boring when not in-game. I would rather read a technical journal on spallation mechanics....

You should speak for yourself, and not for all console gamers. Not all console gamers are casual gamers.

CCP games are not for everyone, and it sounds like DUST is not for you. I'm not sure why you're here, but it'd probably be better for everyone if you went back to CoD instead of arguing for dumbing down DUST.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Knarf Black Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 397	Posted - 2012.09.07 16:23:00 - [91] - Quote If they would give advanced and prototype suits their stat bonuses back, then people would have a reason to spend money on them again. Militia gear being free and infinite would be less of a problem if it went back to being relatively useless in comparison. After dumping most of my SP into passive infantry skills, I can take on basically any other dropsuit with 99% free militia/merc pack gear. Seems silly to spend gobs of cash on equipment that would only marginally improve my performance. In the previous build, my cheap/free fittings and passive skills would be relatively useless against higher level gear, so I abandoned it whenever I could afford to do so. I understand that people not engaging with the economy is a problem, but I think the solution is to give them a reason to want to do so.
Martin0 Brancaleone Maphia Clan Corporation CRONOS. 191	Posted - 2012.09.07 16:42:00 - [92] - Quote I would like standard modules to be WORHT THEYR ISK. Currently most are the same as militia but A LOT MORE EXPENSIVE. The remote armor rep for example, the standard one have the same stat as the militia but is 4000isk. I know they have lesser fitting requirement, but hey are SO MUCH better to justify the isk difference.
Reb El Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 19	Posted - 2012.09.08 05:10:00 - [93] - Quote Shiro Mokuzan wrote: Reb El wrote: Linus D'roso wrote: The isk must flow! Dust will have massive inflation if militia gear is free forever. Make it depletable, and let the strong survive through rewards. Don't peg all rewards on the current NPC games. Keep them low and make people group up and join corps. It'll never happen. 90% of us console players will be on to the next game before they even get DUST released. Most of us hate the overly complex market/skill/ISK system as it is. The only way you will attract new consolers is with a basic free loadout, crappy or not. The attention span in this market is MUCH smaller than you folks seem to think. I know most people who play EvE are intelligent adults. You may be motivated here by your love of a game NO ONE in the console world has heard of, and you haven't impressed the consolers. One needs the soul of an accountant (or an economist) to enjoy any part of this game except the combat. No consoler wants to "join" anything, we aren't even interested in playing w a regular squad. We just want to log on, spawn in & frag some people for an hour. Shouldn't need a squad or team, we all know what we are ther for, and mmost regular shooter players can operate as a squad without even using mic. For the record my IQ is half again and more of what an average person has, and even I find this game boring when not in-game. I would rather read a technical journal on spallation mechanics.... You should speak for yourself, and not for all console gamers. Not all console gamers are casual gamers. CCP games are not for everyone, and it sounds like DUST is not for you. I'm not sure why you're here, but it'd probably be better for everyone if you went back to CoD instead of arguing for dumbing down DUST. I am not arguing for dumbing it down. I am not speaking for ALL consolers, but the statistics available freely do not lie. MOST PS3 users are casual gamers, most are adults, most are not interested in investing hundreds of hours into these games. Check the various polls for yourself. I am fine with the player-driven economy idea. But the skeptic in me sees "pay to play" no matter how hard the opposite is cried. Make even the starter loadouts a consumable and you simply further that impression. I am levelling up and still get killed in an instant. The only gun I have that seems effective is purchased with Aurum. Coincidence, I am sure. I am simply stating my impressions and experience so far. I am a hardcore technical science fictino fan with a KindleFire full of titles, i WANT this to succeed. To that end I am saying that the the simpler you make entry, the more people you will attract to your franchise. To support that player-driven economy you want to try. Or don't. I am not kidding about how quickly things go from new to eww in the gaming world. MAG heyday lasted barely a year and died arounf the time they brought out their second tier beta. EDIT IN; I have never played CoD other than once and didnt care for it. I levelled up to level60 in all 3 PMCs in MAG because it was one of the few shooters a CASUAL GAMER like me really enjoyed. Might be better for YOU if I went away and didn't challenge your assumptions but I won't. The combat portion ofthis game interests me and has potential. Its the spam-charge portion I object to.
Akira Zeta Algintal Core Gallente Federation 7	Posted - 2012.09.08 13:45:00 - [94] - Quote Here are a few ideas that I believe could improve the game: 1. Vehicle controls should be altered. I believe the driving controls should be R2 to go forward, L2 to reverse, left analog stick to steer, and the right analog stick to look around. Keep triangle to switch seats. 2. It is much too slow to switch to the sidearm. I actually wish it wasn't mapped to R2 as well. Triangle would be much better. Make the right analog stick switch stance. L2 melee and R2 grenade. 3. The reload animations are a bit too long in my opinion. 4. I think the maps should look different based on the atmosphere of the planet. Fire, Ice, Forest, Desert, Storms, Snow. You could also have ancient cities, refineries, villages, architecture of the different cultures, mines, etc. Variety is always nice and should set the maps apart. 5. All the classes should have unique weapons and abilities that help the team. Assault is useless right now. 6. Additional cosmetic variety between classes and enemies. Should be able to look at player and tell what class they are playing. 7. Aim assist and voice chat should be enabled by default. 8. Higher default looking sensitivity. 9. Camera should be farther away from character in HQ. 10. Improve textures and effects 11. Grenade indicator for friendly and enemy grenades. Make indicator different colors. 12. Hit boxes need to be adjusted. 13. Reloading while running would be great. 14. Stamina meter is a bit annoying, would prefer unlimited sprint. 15. Hold breath while sniping if not already possible. 16. More class based game play similar to battlefield but on a greater level so people work together more. 17. Engineers can build temporary structures such as gun turrets 18. Press down to open a scroll wheel to select a vehicle or structure with analog stick. Look to Star Hawk for inspiration. 19. Traditional menu would be nice with a server browser and from there you can choose to go your HQ. Would have all the features and options available when you press start. HQ feels sort of gimmicky to me since its so small. 20. Orbital drop system for spawning would be awesome. I know it is in both Section 8 and Star Hawk but it makes sense in this game since you are working for the Eve Online players. I have a feeling this is going to be an awesome game when all is said and done. :)
Sees-Too-Much 332	Posted - 2012.09.08 14:20:00 - [95] - Quote It just occurred to me that making milita gear cost money means we'll see a huge reduction in LAV spam. I'm on board now!
Terminus Decimus 37	Posted - 2012.09.08 15:12:00 - [96] - Quote For new players to not be discouraged when trying to learn this game how about having the militia gear be free up to a certain Skill Level cap then its back to the normal BPC? By that time they should have a grasp on how the economy is flowing and they shouldn't be dieing all the time so every one is happy(er).
hupi testi 22	Posted - 2012.09.08 16:05:00 - [97] - Quote Terminus Decimus wrote: For new players to not be discouraged when trying to learn this game how about having the militia gear be free up to a certain Skill Level cap then its back to the normal BPC? By that time they should have a grasp on how the economy is flowing and they shouldn't be dieing all the time so every one is happy(er). edit: underlined are added in edit. Lets assume one is veteran player, has one skilled merc and player market(buy/sell and transferr ISK) has been implemented. 1.) Create new merc and play to that SP/skill level cap using those free items and hoard ISK to your self by playing instant matches. Since you are veteran player in a new charachter you most likely perform quite well even with starter gear and get good ISK and slavage, because being new char you endup agains new chars/players. 2.) Once you have Reached to that SP level, that militia items become BPC, sell all your salvage and items to get ISK and transfer all your ISK to your main charachter. 3.) delete this 'new' charachter and start again from step one and make profit.
Terminus Decimus 37	Posted - 2012.09.08 16:30:00 - [98] - Quote hupi testi wrote: Terminus Decimus wrote: For new players to not be discouraged when trying to learn this game how about having the militia gear be free up to a certain Skill Level cap then its back to the normal BPC? By that time they should have a grasp on how the economy is flowing and they shouldn't be dieing all the time so every one is happy(er). edit: underlined are added in edit. Lets assume one is veteran player, has one skilled merc and player market(buy/sell and transferr ISK) has been implemented. 1.) Create new merc and play to that SP/skill level cap using those free items and hoard ISK to your self by playing instant matches. Since you are veteran player in a new charachter you most likely perform quite well even with starter gear and get good ISK and slavage, because being new char you endup agains new chars/players. 2.) Once you have Reached to that SP level, that militia items become BPC, sell all your salvage and items to get ISK and transfer all your ISK to your main charachter. 3.) delete this 'new' charachter and start again from step one and make profit. Well if it will be that much of a problem, Put a lock on player switching like PlanetSide did for 24 hours. if you really want to do that it wont net you much gains and would take a while. Also include player creation into the 24 hour time, Swap to a new guy or make a new guy, your choice.
D3LTA NORMANDY Doomheim 101	Posted - 2012.09.08 18:02:00 - [99] - Quote As I already said in another thread should be all Militia gear BPO for the first two weeks to help newbies with a kickstarter. After this time they should have a certain amount of each Militia gear that is not BPO.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2012.09.09 06:36:00 - [100] - Quote As stated previously in this thread I'm going to test the new build before making a deep assessment however there are a few things that I see based on reading the rest of the thread. It seems like the problems CCP is seeking to address and the problems players are seeking to address are in different areas of the game. Players have voiced concerns about entry barriers, casual play, player retention, and game play frustration (such as going broke, lack of tangible benefit from skills, inability to experiment/customize with starter fits, low optimization/play value of starter fits). CCP by contrast seems to be concerned with establishing the proper economic balance (which I'll note, having played EVE as an Industrialist, is not trivial in my view) It seems to me that at present there are several unanswered questions when it comes to how these issues relate, many of which boils down to the macro question "where/what are the Input Streams in Dust". Within EVE players can Mine, PI, accept MPC missions, and fabricate/produce/refine goods, salvage. All of those have a myriad of sub-categories but they serve two general functions, either they are original inputs for ISK/resources into the economy or they allow player skills/actions to reduce the effective cost of goods for that character (opening the door to profits). So where/what are the input streams in Dust? Who will be producing the goods that Dust players consume, NPCs, Dust players, EVE Players, perhaps a combination of all three? Will things like Loyalty Points (a means in EVE by which a player can earn high quality items from NPCs at a discount) be available to Dust players who are participating in the Low Sec Factional Warfare battles? In the present build it seems there are two input streams for Dust players, first is ISK earned at the end of a match (effectively a contract aka mission from an NPC source) and second is salvage. We also lack a resale market or any form of player driven production, and have yet to see the effects of local market distribution or availability. I understand this is beta and there are many reasons why we don't have these things yet but their lack leaves many gaping questions for a Dust player trying to assess risk vs reward. In EVE Rule #1* is "don't fly anything you can't afford to lose.* In Dust it's still profoundly unclear how much a player can afford to lose while making any progress, and with our only to known market input streams requiring combat (which for most players equals some guaranteed loss) it seems the only way to rebuild your wallet is to run 100% Starter fits (with the new change). There's a legitimate question of the fun value here, i.e. how often can someone be required to play only Starter fits before putting down the game? With the current CCP method for the new build (i.e. changing militia to BPCs) I am assuming the cost will be incidental, equivalent to something like Charge S ammo, so that more successful play will matter but will never result in a net loss during an average match. [Warning approximate/fictional numbers follow] If an average KDR (across the whole of the game) is 1:1 and it takes a roughly 7 death per player average to end a non-objective match then for new players seeking to move beyond the (highly constraining) starter fits the new militia gear BPC cost needs to be pegged [/i]below[/i] the average price of those 7 deaths (or whatever the actual number of deaths may be). Now without going anymore deeply into either EVE economics or the recent CSM notes let me just say that it seems important for Dust players not to be dependent on (i.e. purely a consumer market for) EVE players and that the balance point of this needs to be tied to the new player demographic as it will be easier to enact constraining factors for things like Null Sec MegaCorps (if needed) as Dust expands into those areas, than it will be to work backwards from there/from "the top down" as a top down method very much burdens new players more than established ones. Absent things listed in the questions above, and with the present confusion of terms (a BPO in EVE does not after all equate to limitless free items, or even free items at all) it's rather obscure for beta testers (anywhere on the spectrum of exposure to fps/eve/dust) to provide direct feedback on the economics side is dubious at best. Which leaves us with the 'player concerns' side of the issue I mentioned above and that (unsurprisingly) is where most of us have focused our feedback/attention. All of which leads to the question "CCP how does your economic balance account for the aforementioned player concerns?" Obviously much of this simply needs more testing, but it would really help apply the proper context for our testing and feedback if we're able to have a bit more context about the economic context they'll be couched within. Cheers, Cross

Whispercrow Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 102	Posted - 2012.09.09 06:48:00 - [101] - Quote How about we just leave the starter fits as infinite. Then we sell the Militia stuff as BPC's, on the order of maybe 500-1000 isk per item. Then they RE-INTRODUCE the Militia BPO's, but have them cost, say, 100x what the BPC's do. Starting out, you'd have enough money to get one or two, but then you'd have to fight for more. And in most cases, it's cheaper to buy the BPC's. Every couple of matches would let you get a new BPO, so you could buy around and try all the other items first and pick what you want, or just keep paying as you upgrade your skills.
xxBIG DIRTYxx 19	Posted - 2012.09.09 11:48:00 - [102] - Quote Fivetimes Infinity wrote: I like it. Death really should always have meaning, shouldn't it? KD whoring aside, having militia gear be very cheap for players but still something they have to spend money on if they die enough times is a good compromise. Yeah, I concur. The game will be "free to play"- i.e. download. From there, imo, it should be Isk or AUR. No free rides. I use militia modules from time to time to balance out CPU/PG on my suits. I at times might have ISK/AUR & militia gear on one suit, and when I die its all gone... no prob. I dont see why some should have inexhaustible supplies of 'free stuff' while they hoard ISK. Let's not whine about everything CCP does, they alone have the big picture of what this game is yet to be.
City Fan Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2012.09.09 12:31:00 - [103] - Quote im only a rookie, but i noticed the militia gear was inferior to most basic items... so when im skilled enough & rich enough, will i ever look back at militia gear? i doubt it with the fine array of arsenal i can view now...
Sees-Too-Much 332	Posted - 2012.09.09 14:13:00 - [104] - Quote Whispercrow wrote: How about we just leave the starter fits as infinite. Then we sell the Militia stuff as BPC's, on the order of maybe 500-1000 isk per item. Then they RE-INTRODUCE the Militia BPO's, but have them cost, say, 100x what the BPC's do. Starting out, you'd have enough money to get one or two, but then you'd have to fight for more. And in most cases, it's cheaper to buy the BPC's. Every couple of matches would let you get a new BPO, so you could buy around and try all the other items first and pick what you want, or just keep paying as you upgrade your skills. CCP Nothin confirmed that the starter fits will be infinite here. He also confirmed that militia gear will be so cheap you never have to worry about being unable to afford it, no matter how bad you are.
Daken Cydonia Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 23	Posted - 2012.09.09 14:38:00 - [105] - Quote City Fan wrote: im only a rookie, but i noticed the militia gear was inferior to most basic items... so when im skilled enough & rich enough, will i ever look back at militia gear? i doubt it with the fine array of arsenal i can view now... I can afford to use very nice gear, but still use free stuff as much as possible. It forces me to become a better player by having inferior equipment, I'm not risking much if any ISK in matches with random players that don't use their mics, and I get to save money for vehicles, turrets, and some of the ridiculously expensive skill books.
RedBleach 50	Posted - 2012.09.09 20:43:00 - [106] - Quote Sees-Too-Much wrote: It just occurred to me that making milita gear cost money means we'll see a huge reduction in LAV spam. I'm on board now! you kidding? Lav's are free kills - keep them coming!
RedBleach 50	Posted - 2012.09.09 20:59:00 - [107] - Quote Whispercrow wrote: How about we just leave the starter fits as infinite. Then we sell the Militia stuff as BPC's, on the order of maybe 500-1000 isk per item. Then they RE-INTRODUCE the Militia BPO's, but have them cost, say, 100x what the BPC's do. Starting out, you'd have enough money to get one or two, but then you'd have to fight for more. And in most cases, it's cheaper to buy the BPC's. Every couple of matches would let you get a new BPO, so you could buy around and try all the other items first and pick what you want, or just keep paying as you upgrade your skills. I'm kinda good with that. And the suggestion before. MAKE militia gear BPC's cheap enough to continue to play and own but to get the BPO's make them super expensive. Reward those who are going to put in the time and commitment to the game - or maybe make the BPO's standard salvage after so many hours of play or something... maybe the time thing is not a good idea. Maybe just make them salvage. I have to hope that the MMO part will include more Jovian finds and unique experiences and some really cool BPO's and BPC's.
RedBleach 50	Posted - 2012.09.09 21:01:00 - [108] - Quote Sees-Too-Much wrote: Whispercrow wrote: How about we just leave the starter fits as infinite. Then we sell the Militia stuff as BPC's, on the order of maybe 500-1000 isk per item. Then they RE-INTRODUCE the Militia BPO's, but have them cost, say, 100x what the BPC's do. Starting out, you'd have enough money to get one or two, but then you'd have to fight for more. And in most cases, it's cheaper to buy the BPC's. Every couple of matches would let you get a new BPO, so you could buy around and try all the other items first and pick what you want, or just keep paying as you upgrade your skills. CCP Nothin confirmed that the starter fits will be infinite here. He also confirmed that militia gear will be so cheap you never have to worry about being unable to afford it, no matter how bad you are. Cool, Thanks. Could just make the BPO's to be purchased with AUR... of course that may make some people angry with a 'pay to play' rage.
ZeInfidel2 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 4	Posted - 2012.09.09 22:15:00 - [109] - Quote Honestly, this is like debating what type of food to serve on a plane.......which has lost its wings As far as I'm concerned, I couldn't care less with some of the huge problems this game has. Don't get me wrong, once they are fixed, I'll nitpick over the finer detail's like this, but I'll cross that bridge when we get there.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2012.09.09 23:00:00 - [110] - Quote It would also be nice to get some unification of terms, if Dust and EVE are to share a universe, servers and economy (as is still the plan to the best of my knowledge), Blueprint Originals & Blueprint Copies need to mean the same thing in both games (I have a sneaking suspicion that such is part of the plan but it would be really nice to get some confirmation on that). My 0.02 ISK Cross

Demonic Chaos Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 14	Posted - 2012.09.10 01:33:00 - [111] - Quote I think that militia items should be free but if worried about people never switching from them either put penalties in ie they don't get bonuses from skills or a max sp they can be used at
Son of Kade Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 4	Posted - 2012.09.10 04:14:00 - [112] - Quote xxBIG DIRTYxx wrote: Fivetimes Infinity wrote: I like it. Death really should always have meaning, shouldn't it? KD whoring aside, having militia gear be very cheap for players but still something they have to spend money on if they die enough times is a good compromise. Yeah, I concur. The game will be "free to play"- i.e. download. From there, imo, it should be Isk or AUR. No free rides. I use militia modules from time to time to balance out CPU/PG on my suits. I at times might have ISK/AUR & militia gear on one suit, and when I die its all gone... no prob. I dont see why some should have inexhaustible supplies of 'free stuff' while they hoard ISK. Let's not whine about everything CCP does, they alone have the big picture of what this game is yet to be. +1
EVICER 63	Posted - 2012.09.10 04:54:00 - [113] - Quote Sees-Too-Much wrote: It just occurred to me that making milita gear cost money means we'll see a huge reduction in LAV spam. I'm on board now! bro just get a swarm launcher and get allot of kills.I love it when they spam the LAVS.


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