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Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.02 17:02:00 - [91] - Quote Try to remember how fast the guys run they will change that that distance real quick. And it hipfire in controlled bursts in completely possible out to almost 75m with an M4 not as good as ADS but very do-able for someone who practices. So thousands of years into the future yeah its easier. Also what AR are you using because if it is the breach no wonder you cant hit at longer ranges. It has no zoom at all.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.02 17:03:00 - [92] - Quote its not that its being able to look at the screen and say that is X amount of distance the conversion isnt the problem its trying to look at the game and figure out exact distance, for me close range is how far you can toss soemthing and hit something else medium range is everything between short and long(Im just so savy about his aint I) and long is their character is considerable smaller than what it would be at clsoe range.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.02 17:08:00 - [93] - Quote Its easier for me since I had to call possible threats and distance as a gunner in Iraq. Also yes the distance in this game is fairly realistic so RL experience is valid.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.02 17:35:00 - [94] - Quote At anyrate it is just foolish to try to use the sights at less 50-75m because the run and strafe speeds are to high for that. Your sights should be reserved for targets over 75-150m on the AR.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.02 18:10:00 - [95] - Quote i dont know how long that tranlate to in game but that seams like long range to me, or maybe its closer than what i think. as for strafe speed to hi for ADS thats why i want ADS turning speed increased and for hipfire strafing to be lot more inaccuarct than what it is now
Onieros Voidwalker 14	Posted - 2012.08.02 18:11:00 - [96] - Quote Bones1182 wrote: At anyrate it is just foolish to try to use the sights at less 50-75m because the run and strafe speeds are to high for that. Your sights should be reserved for targets over 75-150m on the AR. Wow. We should have to use to sights for anything past 25m. Why play a FPS if we don't need to worry about where we're sending the bullets?
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.02 18:15:00 - [97] - Quote Onieros Voidwalker wrote: Bones1182 wrote: At anyrate it is just foolish to try to use the sights at less 50-75m because the run and strafe speeds are to high for that. Your sights should be reserved for targets over 75-150m on the AR. Wow. We should have to use to sights for anything past 25m. see thats what i was thinking i just cant figure out how the meters translate into ingame distance, upto 10 meters to me is close range and hipfire should be required, after that up to 15 meters and hipfire shoudl start falling off to hard to hit, at about 20 meters ADS shouldb e used 50 meters is long range and 75m is left to snipers.
ICECREAMK1NG WARRIORS 99	Posted - 2012.08.02 18:48:00 - [98] - Quote Nice, so we're all agreed then.... ADS is virtually pointless at this moment in time, unless they are midgets on your screen. Good glad that's sorted then.
testguy242 44	Posted - 2012.08.02 19:00:00 - [99] - Quote Bones1182 wrote: At anyrate it is just foolish to try to use the sights at less 50-75m because the run and strafe speeds are to high for that. Your sights should be reserved for targets over 75-150m on the AR. That means that strafe speed is too high. I think DUST should play very similar to real-world infantry and combined-arms combat, except in the future with advanced technology. That means that sights should be necessary to be effective in most engagements and strafing shouldn't be that effective except at near point-blank range. Hip-firing also be only effective at close range or perhaps as suppressive fire while advancing into cover. Also, this discussion about range has made me realize that there should be some sort of range-finder somewhere, probably built into scopes so we can tell how far away things are.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.08.02 19:09:00 - [100] - Quote Bones1182 wrote: Try to remember how fast the guys run they will change that that distance real quick. And it hipfire in controlled bursts in completely possible out to almost 75m with an M4 not as good as ADS but very do-able for someone who practices. So thousands of years into the future yeah its easier. Also what AR are you using because if it is the breach no wonder you cant hit at longer ranges. It has no zoom at all. Realism excuse to decrease hipfire accuracy = dead

Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.02 21:18:00 - [101] - Quote I am aware that gameplay greater then realism. My point however is that in reality I don't need to aim at anything under 50m therefore why is it unreasonable to hit at all from 50m with hipfire. In CQC I put the front sight of my rifle on the target pull the trigger a few times and it is dead. ADS should be more accurate than hipfire but it is unecessary under 25-50m in almost any game or real life. I also asked which rifle avenger was using as they have different levels of zoom but they same ADS movement speed.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.08.02 21:27:00 - [102] - Quote Bones1182 wrote: I am aware that gameplay greater then realism. My point however is that in reality I don't need to aim at anything under 50m therefore why is it unreasonable to hit at all from 50m with hipfire. In CQC I put the front sight of my rifle on the target pull the trigger a few times and it is dead. ADS should be more accurate than hipfire but it is unecessary under 25-50m in almost any game or real life. I also asked which rifle avenger was using as they have different levels of zoom but they same ADS movement speed. If you're replying to me, I agree with you completely. I'm glad you pointed out that in real life you can hipfire accurately at such ranges, because people asking for a hipfire nerf were using realism as an excuse, so realism is not on their side. I like the current high hipfire accuracy and effective range of this game, and don't want it changed. I am totally fine with ADS getting an accuracy boost though, as long as hipfire accuracy is not decreased. You killed their realism excuse, and I'm glad.
Jax The Tank 9	Posted - 2012.08.02 21:32:00 - [103] - Quote CoD isn't exactly a good comparison for hipfire. Shotgun shells not being able to reach the other side of the road? Yeah. Imo, while you are right about hipfire being quite accurate, I don't necessarily think it needs a nerf.. instead consider buffing aimed fire
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.02 21:47:00 - [104] - Quote Avenger 245 wrote: Onieros Voidwalker wrote: Bones1182 wrote: At anyrate it is just foolish to try to use the sights at less 50-75m because the run and strafe speeds are to high for that. Your sights should be reserved for targets over 75-150m on the AR. Wow. We should have to use to sights for anything past 25m. see thats what i was thinking i just cant figure out how the meters translate into ingame distance, upto 10 meters to me is close range and hipfire should be required, after that up to 15 meters and hipfire shoudl start falling off to hard to hit, at about 20 meters ADS shouldb e used 50 meters is long range and 75m is left to snipers. Wait till maps get bigger and the draw distance is fixed sniper should be shooting at 150m atm this map is really about vehicles and CQC. The real problem however is that this is a high health shooter so honestly you shouldn't fire at a range where you might not kill the enemy and give away your position. ADS still has a purpose now its called sneak up behind for hardcore and a faster kill. Moving targets at any range are hard to hit the farther away they are though the more difficult it becomes. I was not trying to ADS does not need be faster because it is way to slow but there should be a limit to how far you can turn at full speed. Que realism example. In reality you can move your arms and together very quickly and maintain a good sight picture, however it will only go so far if you have to move your feet, and you will to keep your balance, you will have to do it fairly slowly to keep that sight picture. That's is biggest reason for not using ADS ingame right now I can't track targets that are running in a straight line fast enough. I end up placing my sights ahead of them and let them run into the rounds if they survive I have go out of ADS reset and do it again. Within a reasonable range of motion I should be to track faster than a heavy can run.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.02 22:03:00 - [105] - Quote i think both ADS and hipfire should be valid and should be useful if skills are trained up for it, i dont think hipfire should be as accaurct as it is now at what i consider medium range, i think ADS should be far better at medium range, which it is not in the current build hipfire is good at short medium range. now according to you ADS should only be used for longr range 75m + i disagree hipfire should be useful for close range 20m - and ADS should be useful for medium range 25-60m. realism and everything else aside i want a game where BOTH hipfire and ADS are valid methods that can be used in a range of combat sitution, i dont want a game where hipfire is dominate for most thing and ADS is only useful for long range.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.02 22:24:00 - [106] - Quote Perhaps if the sights were not little dots on both hipfire and ADS. The dot or something similar can stay for ADS and a more open sight for hipfire, say a small circle or an open x kind of like the forge guns sight only smaller. That would make hipfire a little less pinpoint and make ADS better at more than 30m. Edit All that being said a man size target at 30m is still pretty big, on my 43inch screen that about 8-9 inches tall and at 2 wide. So while perhaps ADS shouof viable at tat range but hipfire would likely work better given the speed we can move at even in this build where many people feel it is too slow. I am still curious what AR you are using.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.02 22:41:00 - [107] - Quote Summing up the purpose of Hipfire hip fire should be used for quick fast fights like those in a building, tracking speed is what matters not accuracy hip fire should be able to kill people at close range, strafing and tracking speed are important here not accuracy. hip fire should be able to kill multiple targets, spread is important here not accuracy hip fire should NOT be able to consistently hit targets at medium range, like it does now. This is were the Nerf will affect hip fire Summing up aiming down sights(ADS) ADS should be useful for medium range encounters, tracking speed is important here which is why I asked for the buff to this stat in general. ADS should be required for Long range, pinpoint accuracy is required here Ranges Short range is being able to make out the exact suit someone is wearing. Medium range is being able to make out what type of suit, scout assault heavy ect. Long range is being able to make out someone being there. Support for dust roots Player should have to specialize in one or the other before their proficient at using one of the two methods at anything but their optimal areas, but never fully encroaching on the others area of expertise Skills for snaping(even at max shouldnGÇÖt be as fast as CoD) Skills for moving while ADS(shouldnGÇÖt be near where max speed is) Bone I use a proto breach on my proto assault suit and an advanced breach on my Advanced assault(for when I feel cheap) but I've used the burst, and standard AR some too, I also use Advacned SL and Advanced SR aswell. When I used the burst or standard I was still tring to use ADS and it didnGÇÖt work out so I stick with hip fire and the breach, unless AV or cover fire is need in the match.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.02 23:12:00 - [108] - Quote The whole purpose of the breach is hipfire trying to use for longer ranges and ADS is almost worthless on that rifle. Spread on an assault rifle should never be used to take down multiple targets. That's spray and pray bullshiest. Hipfire yes but that is not the same thing as spread. Spread is not even accuracy really its just breathing, trigger squeeze and sight picture along with the kick of the fully automatic fire. For the record your examples of range ,once better graphics and draw distance are put in, are about 50m target will be about 4-6 inches tall on your screen. Medium is 150m target will be about 3 inches. Long is 300m and the target would be outside the current draw distance so you may need to rethink your definition of the ranges. I am not trying to be condescending but I can tell the armor classes apart almost as soon as I can see them. I have a 43 inch plasma at 720p so its a pretty good picture I guess if you are using an SDTV that might be a part of the problem. Edit I estimate the draw distance for infantry to be a little under 200m but no less than 150m.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.03 00:58:00 - [109] - Quote why didnt my post post?? um. i never said i was using the breach for ADS i said i use it for hipfire, i just want there to be more of a point to use the ADS in general and Hipfire to be less dominate. [edit] less dominte for other guns like the standard assualt and tactical. but i have to ask why dont you want ADS made better than what it is now? and why do you think hipfire should remain at its current level of accuarcy, is it becasue of realism or gameplay whats your reason for not wanting it changed from what it is now?
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.03 01:53:00 - [110] - Quote the reason i am argue for all the change is becuase i would like players to have to speicelize in one or the other eve/dust style and to do that both must be equally strong and weak at certian roles hence me wanting the currently hipfire dominate game to nerf hipfire and buff ADS, while providing skills for making them better, i want dust game where anybody can play with Their prefered playstyle not the ingame donimate one where everyone use hipfire or where everyone use ADS all the time i want people to have to speiclize in their prefered way of gaming and to do that all methods, stratgys and playstyles must be equal and from playing the game since this build began i think hipfire needs a nerfing and ADS needs a buff to make them on equal footing within their intend roles

xprotoman23 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1452	Posted - 2012.08.03 02:08:00 - [111] - Quote i would love to post some gameplay just to prove how ******** this thread actually is.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.03 02:12:00 - [112] - Quote xprotoman23 wrote: i would love to post some gameplay just to prove how ******** this thread actually is. Im actually getting tired of you, protoman can you not discuss this topic like a reasonable person. i could post gameplay to prove my point as well and what Im trying to say.
Bones1182 Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 86	Posted - 2012.08.03 04:54:00 - [113] - Quote First I never really said that they should not change anything. Half of these problems could be related to hit detection being crap still. Second once the maps a 5000m across long range combat will come into its own anyway likely players will have to cross large open fields and you will have ample time to take pot shots at them. Hipfire is so dominate right now because this map makes it work, yes there are large open areas but that is not where the gunfights are happening its mostly around the objectives or at least some form of cover or stuff that's just in the way. That forces the fights to be closer range. Third and most important you can not please everyone. I gave an example of they could the sights that would accomplish what you are asking for but you made no comment on that. We have enough skills for now lets get the bugs worked out of these before we try to add more.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.03 05:19:00 - [114] - Quote i personally dont think a 5000m map or 400m map will make much a diffrence there is a size diffrence but alot of the infintry combat were seeing now is going to be how it is pretty much. i know the size diffrence will make a diffrence but the range we are engaging on now will be what we see in the other maps they will just have more room for snipers and vehicles the infintry vs infintry cobmat distance wont change to much. its not a mattter of pleasing everyone its giving them the option to play how they want and i think thats important. this game will have people from every FPS out tehre coming to check out this new title i think giving the the option to speicelize in their normal role and style is going to keep people playing rather than forcing them to play one certian way. options and choice are what makes eve changing this stuff isnt going to casue to much of a problem its not realy a new mechanic its just diffrent stats/data the devs might have to iron it out but its not realy that hard to implement, as for skills its the same thing realy 3% per and 5% per multipler to numbers. once agian the devs may have to tweak it on their version before its released but this wont be hard to implement like any new stuff its simple and change in what already there as for focusing on bugs and hit detection i dont have very many hit detection problems even when i use other weapons, i could be better but thats not the issue here the issue is ADS vs hipfire. as for bugs they will get ironed out as they cropped up that what were for were here to take this nice shiny beta and abuse and stress it to find in flaws and get the devs to smooth them out.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.03 15:17:00 - [115] - Quote So no more arguments? Or agreement?
Logisticus Testing Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 17	Posted - 2012.08.04 00:13:00 - [116] - Quote i love when people use the gameplay > realism argument. really? if we can toss reality out the window, then why not just say that we've invented a device that negates gravity on a world and we're all gonna have a zero G match? or we have something that turns mountains into ice cream? or a gun that can hit a target in the eye at a thousand meters without even looking at it? ok, all incredibly unreal, heck even ridiculous, but really, where do you draw the line? "i want to suspend reality up to _____ point." everyone's going to have a different answer to fill in the blank. some want to say i don't want anything more complicated than a game where all i have to do is point the gun in the general direction of a target and hit it. others will say i want a game where it's better to play where everyone has to be ultra-accurate in their aim. it's 20-odd thousand years in the future, NO ONE can honestly predict what technology will be like that far out, so yes, we're using 21st century ideas and references to make the game (setting, gameplay, recognizable items for uses we'd recognize, like a gun to kill someone) remotely like anything we could interact with. hell, i could see this all being done with AI software, with the only human involvement being someone in a Virtual reality tank coordinating things, and there only being 3 or 4 real humans in the universe, kept alive by some wacked out technology that makes them immortal. hell, who's to say in 20000 years that we'd even look like humans? yes, i realize this doesn't fit in with EVE and the way it's designed, but honestly the only ones who can determine the true technological level of the EVE universe is CCP. how is this relevant to this thread? well, besides the whole discussion over whether ADS and hipfire need to be nerffed / buffed, people are pulling out both real life experiences as well as people pulling out Gamplay>Reality. don't get me wrong, i know it's the future, and things will be different. Duh! my problem is people complaining about too much reality in a game like this, that's as complex and rich in material, both in story and in environment, that saying we don't need one style of gameplay or another, especially based on some other game (i.e. someone else's idea of reality or unreality) just sounds like someone trying to tailor the game to their particular style, often at the detriment of another. bah, i've gotten so off topic it's not funny. i'm gonna get a ton of tl;dr's, i'm sure. of course, those are the kind of people i think should go back to the kind of games where roleplaying is nonexistant, where twitchflexes are more important than thought, because they won't really appreciate the level of game that CCP is trying to create. by the way, for the record, i do believe that hipfiring while moving probably is more accurate than it should be, but not by much, i'm sure. honestly, trying to run while shooting sounds like a true pain in the arse, and i can't figure how it could be anything close to accurate. then again i'm probably confusing hipfiring (holding the gun closer to your midsection) with having the butt stock in your shoulder while not implicitly lining up your aim through the sites. oops, there i go again, expecting a level of reality from a game :)
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.04 02:57:00 - [117] - Quote so where should we draw the line?
Logisticus Testing Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 17	Posted - 2012.08.04 05:50:00 - [118] - Quote that's the question, isn't it? i guess it depends on what kind of game CCP wants to make. if they want to dumb it down for folks not interested in the rich content that will be available, i sincerely hope there will still be room for those of us who like the metagame, too. problem is, even an even compromise will still have people complaining. reminds me of a comic i read once, 2 kids getting a piece of cake, 1 starts complaining about the size, mom pulls out a ruler and measures, says they're exactly the same, and the one says yeah, i wanted them the same size, but i wanted mine to be bigger.... not helpful, i know, for now we wait and see what CCP does with the next build.
testguy242 44	Posted - 2012.08.05 08:40:00 - [119] - Quote Yeah, my pet peeve is when people make the same tired response to the effect of "Realism? Like a game about (sci-fi/zombies/aliens/demons/vampires/whatever) is realistic LOLOLOLROFL" When someone talks about "realism" in a fictional setting, they're talking about things working more or less like they would in real life with the exception of whatever makes it fictional. For a FPS about zombies, for instance, human capabilities and the way weapons work wouldn't change just because zombies exist. To me the main point of most games is to immerse you in some sort of fictional setting and let you interact with it. If this game was about unicorns shooting rainbows at each other on a landscape made of marshmallows, I probably wouldn't be playing it. I play EVE because it lets you play the part of a spaceship pilot in a really well-developed virtual universe and I play DUST (at least the beta) because it lets you play the part of a soldier in ground battles in that same virtual universe. If there's not a certain level of realism or at least plausibility, it kills that immersive feeling and reminds me that I'm just sitting there playing a video game.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.08.09 06:36:00 - [120] - Quote Both sides from a gameplay or realism perspective can be argued all day and both would be right however I sticking with make hipfire and ADS equal in terms of use at diffrent situation. And to do this hipfire needs a nerf and ADS needs a buff along with hipfire and ADS specific skills for improving them.



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