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Get rid of the redline

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xprotoman23 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1452	Posted - 2012.07.23 03:38:00 - [1] - Quote If this game really is supposed to be a sandbox redlines and safe zones have no place. People shouldn't be able to hide in their spawn when they are getting destroyed.
Zander Rodriguez 41	Posted - 2012.07.23 03:40:00 - [2] - Quote It might only be for the beta in the e3 beta trailer it showed tanks and dropships moving towards another objective that is now a redline area in the build we're playing
Zander Rodriguez 41	Posted - 2012.07.23 03:41:00 - [3] - Quote http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tASM8P6c16c
xprotoman23 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1452	Posted - 2012.07.23 03:42:00 - [4] - Quote redlines have existed since the private trials. They need to be gone.
Tony Calif Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2002	Posted - 2012.07.23 03:42:00 - [5] - Quote Agreed. Both teams should be able to spawn on all edges with big open maps like this.
Armatsu Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 33	Posted - 2012.07.23 03:47:00 - [6] - Quote While i agree with in your reasoning about redlines and sandbox i don't think spawn camping should ever be something supported by a dev. The lore just doesn't allow for it. With the amount of technology in the universe and the fact that it seems clones drop from space onto the battle field, it betrays logic that spawn camping should occur. No commander of any army would willingly continue to drop soldiers into a position where they will immediately be slayed. It would make more sense to allow multiple spawns in the back so that the team being red lined still has a chance. It's much harder to spawn camp someone when they have 5 or so areas they can spawn at.
Zeran Haggai Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 196	Posted - 2012.07.23 03:54:00 - [7] - Quote So wait, we've moved on from "fix spawn camping" to "make spawn camping easier"?
Armatsu Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 33	Posted - 2012.07.23 03:56:00 - [8] - Quote Zeran Haggai wrote: So wait, we've moved on from "fix spawn camping" to "make spawn camping easier"? In most games i've found that the people who don't care about spawn camping are the ones who quit out of games when they are being spawn camped. They love doing it to other people but they despise it so much they leave games and are never affected by it.
Rorek IronBlood ZionTCD Legacy Rising 746	Posted - 2012.07.23 03:59:00 - [9] - Quote Oh, looky yet another unecessary trolling by (you guessed it!) Proto. The area and surrounding area will be more then likely increased. However of course there will be a limit to the given area in which you are allowed to exceed. This is all about being an objective militant game. So your actions may be perceived as going A-WOL, or even abandoning your mission/post. So even given if they dramatically increase the given available range in-game there will be most likely a given limit to how far. However this does not mean that you may not be able to walk to, or interfere in another districts fight zone. This may very well happen in due time or even during the [beta] phase. There will most likely always be a given ("X") amount of space in which you can explore. Whether in a fight, or exploring on your own terms and prospecting/salvaging. As for the spawning that has been discussed, debated, and CCP hopefully has fixed it with the coming update in august. All you can do is really complain about it, and move on at the moment sadly. I do not condone spawn camping, or even the fact that the spawning algorithim, and mechanic is very sub-par. However that is what we are here for. To civily discuss and note these problems so that come release, players will not have to endure it. Really the games biggest problem is the player base.
xprotoman23 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1452	Posted - 2012.07.23 04:10:00 - [10] - Quote Zeran Haggai wrote: So wait, we've moved on from "fix spawn camping" to "make spawn camping easier"? redlining and spawn camping happen because one side is too lazy to properly play the objective.

gangsta nachos Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 377	Posted - 2012.07.23 04:11:00 - [11] - Quote xprotoman23 wrote: If this game really is supposed to be a sandbox redlines and safe zones have no place. People shouldn't be able to hide in their spawn when they are getting destroyed. oh god yes
Septem Mortuus Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 86	Posted - 2012.07.23 04:19:00 - [12] - Quote xprotoman23 wrote: If this game really is supposed to be a sandbox redlines and safe zones have no place. People shouldn't be able to hide in their spawn when they are getting destroyed. So what you're saying is "When we've red-lined the other team and are mearely harvesting them for kills to pad our KDR, we should be able to more easily camp their last remaining spawn" is it? I don't mind spawn-camping, I have way too many suits with uplinks to care - but seriously, your complaint is that you have to sit at a redline and pound them rather than being able to sit on their spawn and kill them close-up? All the removal of the red-line would do is encourage players to quit matches when they're losing - who'd spawn into a match where the only spawn is camped by the entire opposition team?
Zeran Haggai Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 196	Posted - 2012.07.23 04:21:00 - [13] - Quote xprotoman23 wrote: Zeran Haggai wrote: So wait, we've moved on from "fix spawn camping" to "make spawn camping easier"? redlining and spawn camping happen because one side is too lazy to properly play the objective. I agree, i've stated in the past that if you're doing bad enough as a team to have only one available spawn you deserve to get camped. That attitude just hasn't been widely shared, and i thought i saw you advocating fixing spawns during the last build, so i just wanted to make sure.
xprotoman23 Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1452	Posted - 2012.07.23 05:25:00 - [14] - Quote Septem Mortuus wrote: xprotoman23 wrote: If this game really is supposed to be a sandbox redlines and safe zones have no place. People shouldn't be able to hide in their spawn when they are getting destroyed. So what you're saying is "When we've red-lined the other team and are mearely harvesting them for kills to pad our KDR, we should be able to more easily camp their last remaining spawn" is it? I don't mind spawn-camping, I have way too many suits with uplinks to care - but seriously, your complaint is that you have to sit at a redline and pound them rather than being able to sit on their spawn and kill them close-up? All the removal of the red-line would do is encourage players to quit matches when they're losing - who'd spawn into a match where the only spawn is camped by the entire opposition team? People shouldn't be able to hide behind a redline when they should playing the objectives. Killing people at the redline more than anything is a chore and isn't fun at all. It makes for a boring game. People should be able to surrender and forfeit some gear and ISK if they feel they can't compete.
Hellhammer Tactical Algintal Core Gallente Federation 45	Posted - 2012.07.23 06:05:00 - [15] - Quote at the moment the battlefield comander role is not avaliable, but once it is each team wll have a player who is watching over the match and can drop in CRU, turrets and supply depot from orbit. this means that spawn camping should not be posssible.
CaW PHoNOi Doomheim 7	Posted - 2012.07.23 06:17:00 - [16] - Quote I guess X has never been on the team who has all the new players and are still learning the game. Maybe he has never been spawn trapped. Make it easier to spawn camp lol, by doing that it will most likely turn away players. I leave the because its impossible at times to make it past the redline call in a drop ship and it explodes before it even hits the ground, flank right get hit by Jesus missiles, flank left to be destroyed by a tank.... Its funny how all these L33T players do so well when they are on the team that is winning. I have yet to see one game where X is on the loosing side and getting spawn camped, maybe if it happened to you often you would make such a suggestion.
Tony Calif Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2002	Posted - 2012.07.23 08:00:00 - [17] - Quote Proto just asked for the redline to disappear. He didn't say at any point "do I can be a spawn camper". You all read what you want to think, not what's written. Bitter much?
Drake Lyons Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 209	Posted - 2012.07.23 08:19:00 - [18] - Quote Well...I think the point of fact is that most of the time a game ends up at redline, maybe 5% of the opposing team "hides" as Pman is suggesting. Instead, they generally try to escape and push back to an objective, either on foot, with LAVs, dropships, or even the occasional surprise marauder. Removing the red line without offering any "surrender" condition for the game essentially serves only one purpose. It allows the winning to get closer to the fixed spawn points of the losing team, making it essentially impossible for the already harangued losing team to do anything other than spawn and die instantly...repeatedly...for the rest of the round. So yes. Unless further mechanics are added or changed, requests for removing the redline amount simply to "I want to be able to get closer to their spawn so I can kill them more effectively. They've already lost, so let me just reap kills endlessly until the match is over." Or in other words - "Help me spawn camp better, CCP!"
Tony Calif Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2002	Posted - 2012.07.23 08:23:00 - [19] - Quote Proto is not to blame for CCP's epic design failure that is putting spawns in 100m open ground. But don't forget "it's a beta" so we can't mention that.
The dark cloud Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1060	Posted - 2012.07.23 08:34:00 - [20] - Quote well looks like if this guy is just beeing greedy and wants to be aible to put remote explosives in the enemy spawn . Well ive learned my lesson about beeing on the side that gets trapped and insta killed. As soon the match starts you see me in a logistic suit and all 3 equipments have drop uplinks that are capable to deploy 2 uplinks at a time. Means when im done in the beginning where this scrub is still destroying turrets with his sagaris/surya ive allready made it impossible to spawntrap cause ive put allready 6 active uplinks. Wanna see how he trys to spawntrap when he gets hit by swarm launchers from all possible directions. Also im working towards proto uplinks and im gonna deploy them too. I just make a second loadout with another 3 different uplinks. And there are 3 proto uplinks that cost ISK means another 6 spawn points. In total there are then 12 spawn points that you cant predict. And I could even put 1 more loadout with 3 normal uplinks that are 3 more spawns. In total then insane 15 spawn points. When im done with you wont have a sec where you doesnt get shot in the back. In the end there will be no spawn that doesnt give me +15

Tiata Rames 10	Posted - 2012.07.23 09:43:00 - [21] - Quote This is a subject that is gonna get rejected by both sides. We can argue the sky is green but unless we just wait til the new build and see what they have in store for fixes concerning the game. Though we all need a safe place for spawning if they do take out the redline. I highly doubt they will remove it fully though
Laurent Cazaderon Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 1155	Posted - 2012.07.23 09:47:00 - [22] - Quote xprotoman23 wrote: If this game really is supposed to be a sandbox redlines and safe zones have no place. People shouldn't be able to hide in their spawn when they are getting destroyed. EVE is a sandbox. Still there's high sec and other safe (more or less) spots. Redline could go away if the spawn system was more dynamic wich i assume will be when Commander will come out of the MQ. And in this case, if defenders\attackers still think about redlining. They'll be more than stupid.
Pezz IsDank Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 171	Posted - 2012.07.23 09:59:00 - [23] - Quote lololol wut? no
Norbar Recturus Algintal Core Gallente Federation 119	Posted - 2012.07.23 13:35:00 - [24] - Quote The redline problem wouldn't exist if a couple of other things were true: People used drop-uplinks fairy frequently OR Logistics players existed in higher frequency Teams play the objectives. I can't count how many times I've seen battles over the NE / NW CRUs when all objective points belong to an enemy. Render distance was increased / removed. All of these issues contribute to the ability of either team to spawn-lock the other. Drop-Uplinks should, in theory, be everywhere on the map because players should recognize the importance of tactical redeployment. Instead, we load up scout suits with REs and play "explode-y kablow-y 514" instead of DUST. The problem is not the implementation of the game, it's player psychology and kill-chasing. People don't like to camp objectives because unless an aggressor is at their doorstep then the game is "boring" to them. I personally don't mind holding a sniper rifle and pointing it over an objective. I may not be at the top of the KDR charts, but no one is getting that point... inb4 sniping is for kiddies, etc. This isn't CSS, get over it.
Knarf Black Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 397	Posted - 2012.07.23 14:20:00 - [25] - Quote I think the elite is tiring of redlining people because they lose too many tanks to victims making big AV pushes. I mean, what else is there to do after being pushed behind the line but take out cheap Swarm Launchers and blow up tanks? You'll never get a vehicle down, and the prototype assault guys will probably slaughter you even without tank support.
Benjamin Hellios Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 259	Posted - 2012.07.23 14:40:00 - [26] - Quote From this post; Ourors wrote: spawning will be fixed. in skirmish, players will spawn in one of many possible spawn locations surrounding a control point, instead of just one. the way-back spawn will also shift around if enemies are nearby
Templar Two Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 459	Posted - 2012.07.23 14:45:00 - [27] - Quote Danger zones/red lines line surrounding areas serve one purpose and one purpose only: to limit where you can go. Too bad that in sandbox games the only impassable limits/borders acceptable/believable for your play-zone are geographical ones like: open empty oceans & troposphere. Take Just Cause 2 & Arma 3 for instance: what is the limit/border of the play-zone/map there? The open empty ocean! What is the limit/border of the various play-zones in WoW? The open empty ocean! It is clear to me that maps are not designed as in sandbox with geographical limits so at some point you must die because you are not allowed to go where you want, and you die because a red line a.k.a.invisible walls says so! NOT BELIEVABLE PEOPLE! In EVE it's easy to go where you want in a cluster/system/sector because, hey, it's set in SPACE. Also safe zones belong to RPG. In fact in RPG you have zone in which you can only PVE and zones where PVP is basically based on rank. We have Hig-sec in Dust 514 which is precisely a PVP area for newcomers...and guess what: we have PVE with rogue drones! Sadly safe zones & danger zones are here to stay because this is how Dust 514 is designed: changing it would mean making another FPS MMO entirely. @Nobar Draw Distance is something all game shave so really it won't be removed anytime soon...not even on PS4 or even on PS5.
Norbar Recturus Algintal Core Gallente Federation 119	Posted - 2012.07.23 15:08:00 - [28] - Quote Templar Two wrote: @Nobar Draw Distance is something all game shave so really it won't be removed anytime soon...not even on PS4 or even on PS5. While this may be true, DD should never prevent me from hitting a target. As the game is currently implemented, an anti-vehicle infantry unit can not use a Swarm Launcher to gain a lock on a target that is annihilating you with direct fire from out of visual range. By the same token, Forge Gun plasma-balls do not travel further than you can see (tested and confirmed). Draw Distance is only a problem in-so-far-as-much that you can't USE your gun / launcher / tool to do what it's intended to do. I'm not talking about "Invisible Dropships" here, I'm talking about tanks parked under the awning of Plateau and firing into spawns. If we're going to talk about draw distance then I think we need to talk about rendering too... I can scope in and see the battlefield quite clearly... but I can't see people standing on pipes. This is a problem.
PEEEEEEETREEEEEEEEEEEEEE Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 781	Posted - 2012.07.23 15:09:00 - [29] - Quote Norbar Recturus wrote: "explode-y kablow-y 514". WHEN DOES THIS LAUNCH?!!? preordering now
Templar Two Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 459	Posted - 2012.07.23 15:20:00 - [30] - Quote Norbar You here are dividing Draw Distance and Rendering Distance but actually they are one thing. Quote: "Draw distance is a computer graphics term, defined as the maximum distance of objects in a three dimensional scene that are drawn by the rendering engine. Polygons that lie behind the draw distance won't be drawn to the screen." Sorry if I sound pedantic for this technicality but we will understand each other better....anyway you are right: Draw/Rendering Distance is a problem. For game that is set on maps of 5km it's depressing and objectively hinders the gameplay and frankly I don't understand why this is still present after so much time and this far in the development! Important data: Crysis has a DD of 15 Km and Halo of 20 Km.



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