We're at a lot faster SP gain.

People will be ahead, and that's the name of a MMO

but We'll hopefully see something to keep the stomping on the newbs down a bit after launch (corp matches?)

Yeah, but right now you are automatically placed in a cooperation, who knows how easy it will be for new players to find a cooperation.

Regardless all they can do is help guide the new player, they can't help give them better equipment.

We are going to have highsec matchmaking system in place.

You guys do know they wipe our chars before release right?

i agree. i consider myself to be quite a good pvp'er and fps player. i jumped out of a drop suit used the thing so as not to take damage and ambushed a guy hacking a gun used a entire clip which didn't miss only took of his shields and half armour (he was in a heavy) he turned around and used about 10 bullets and i melted. i ambushed him with skill he stood still and smashed my face in. i appreciate that skill points are supposed to improve your performance but i think there is some serious balancing issues here

You're also seeing all different skill level players bunched together. once the game has been out for awhile all of the higher level players will be off doing corp battles leaving the noob matches alone to the noobs themselves for the most part

main thing you have to remember is high sp user will want to field high tech gear as sp alone wont win the day, in the current game modes (high sec equiverlants) you simply cant afford to run this gear

at the end of the day this is a game were playing mercs who are out to make profit. to field proto gear you have to fight in high stake battles.

There are a large number of strategies to deploy when dealing with the opposition, no matter how overpowering they may seem. What' i'd like to see to help encourage gameplay without having long term players griefing new recruits would be:

• NPC Mission System based on standings that unlocks "higher level" agents with progressively higher paying missions & difficulty levels.
• Skill spikes that you can plug into your clones to give you a specific level of proficiency in a skill.
• Skill clusters that allow you to plug entire pieces of a skill into your clone so that you can pick up entire weapon proficiencies.
• Salvage drops based on your equipment (which is largely tied to your skill proficiencies).

The Mission system & salvage rewards would encourage higher geared/skilled players to avoid lower ranked missions. The skills pikes & clusters will give newer players a chance to complete on an even field with older players (by improving skills and unlocking better equipment) & longer standing players the ability to customize their skill sets even further.

Let's see...

SP is nothing but bullshit to keep you online playing just as they did for EVE because it takes you years to learn all those skills I know ive been on now for 6 years have 96 mill skill points and im maybe half way through its a good thing that i realy like EVE or i would of been gone at 2 mill. its just a gimmick by CCP and a good one at that so you stay on and they keep making money, but if you have a good enough game that they all can enjoy!!! they will stick around.

DUST IS NOT A TYPICAL FPS.

As infantry: USE COVER (I cant count the number of people i've killed because they were out in the open), STAY MOBILE (how many times will someone stand still and try to shoot me?) and FFS dont try to shoot a tank with an assault rifle unless you REALLY KNOW what you are doing! (Not that I mind the free kills ).

Learn about the equipment, play around with it, even if you do die horribly... a lot (I did, and I suck at console FPS). I can't stress this enough. Simply copying down some tools dropsuit fitting doesnt make you an expert at how that dropsuit works or "plays". You have to learn its weaknesses and strengths the hard way.

Do this and more and you will more than survive the dreaded "eve universe" learning curve.
http://themacgamer.com/wp-content/gallery/eve-online/eve_learningcurve.jpg

So I have been enjoying the beta, and I love the potential DUST has to be a great experience, but it currently has one big problem that will hold it back.

People who start playing Dust (lets say a month) after launch don't have even a small chance when going up against someone who had been playing since launch. And from my own personal experience, I am never turned off from a multiplayer game faster than when other players are destroying me solely based on their equipment. New players will feel helpless and then quickly turn away.

I am not saying a new player should be able to easily take down someone who has been playing for months, but they should have a fighting chance.

Of course, Dust being what it is, it will be really hard to make that balance.

In game development you have to manage Flow & Fiero to make sure that your players remain engaged in the game. The SP system is incredibly effective at managing this in a sandbox environment by allowing for gradual escalation of the player's power & the range of roles they can fill.

As an EVE player I'm sure you remember what it felt like to be able to fly your first "awesome" frigate. You probably remember what it felt like each time you scaled up a bit in power & saw the universe cower before you. It's going to be very similar with this. As you play, the gear you unlock doesn't make you a better player but does give you more chances for "wins" and makes you more formidable than you were before, which can be a win all by itself.

Matchmaking in a FPS MMO is bad, really bad!
It's the negation of sandbox elements altogether

Yeah bud i do remember it took me years to get in to different types of ships but I stuck around, The difference is that not all will wait, I tried to get my friends to join me in EVE but when they saw how long it takes to get into those ships none stayed! MY son lasted one year and said im done hes on xbox at least 5 to 7 hours a day with his friends and they wont put up with waiting to fit into anything thats the problem CCP is going to run into with DUST these console guys want it NOW not years from NOW.

Most of the responses that are in the forums now are from eve players, im waiting to here just from console players that have not played one day or even herd of eve to get there take, CCP maid this game to get them not us from EVE and by the way you should take a pole and see how many EVE players dont want this game to make it you may be shocked!

DUST won't have that bad a problem though.

MOST of the basic gear has a Militia version you'll be able to use immediately. You don't need to train into SMGs before the game lets you upgrade from the Pistol in the default loadouts.

Assuming you don't pour SP into things immediately, you can start out by finding yourself a niche - find something that, while your baseline stats might prevent you from being GOOD, you're doing slightly better in. Or at least something you ENJOY doing more than the other roles. By the time you've identified your best/most fun role, you SHOULD already have a few SPs to pile onto the relevant skills - and a small stockpile of ISK to pour into the next tier of gear. If you're not careful, you'll run through that new and pretty gear too fast, and have to save up for more - but that's one of the lessons of New Eden: Don't bring it if you can't afford to lose it. If this (relative) noob has read up on New Eden, or got good advice from a friend, they'll only bring their shiny new suits out to play when it's important - or at least profitable, and will stick to the Militia gear for the majority of most battles. By the time you can build up the necessary SP for the next tier of gear in your chosen profession, you'll probably also have saved up the ISK to buy it - exactly as it should be.

In the early stages of the game, upgrades will come to you quickly. It's only as you build up in a particular specialty that it becomes time-consuming. And that's how it SHOULD be, and what most shooters LACK. It's the reason most shooters only hold their fanbase for a year (if that) before everyone move on to the next big thing.

EDIT: I should also mention - console gamer for YEARS now, never played EVE, but I know a little about it.

So newcomers that come in looking for a MMO will have to play in a Matchmaking FPS (High-sec); do you really think this is fine?
This idea that the game has to babysit players into the action is so RPG and so anti FPS.
Holding players' hand in FPS is a mistake...a big one.
Separating players based on their SP is also bad in a FPS MMO; Why would anyone play a FPS MMO just to be stuck with a ranked FPS?

Needing in-game skills & unlocks to compete appropriately is something that won't be appealing to someone that has played FPS for decades.
Would you ask a Tekken veteran to unlock moves for his favourite character or he can't compete appropriately?

Some games like FPS & Fighting Games are based on player's skills and if you "limit" what a skilled player can do you inevitably negate their true essence.
What works for RPG doesn't work for FPS!
What works for EVE doesn't work for Dust 514.

Also are maps in Low/Null-sec perpetual battlefields?

DUST 514 has uber potential! BUT its definitely NOT a console game. There is already mass dis-interest in the game coming from console players. The writing is already on the wall so to speak. Thousands of beta keys have been GIVEN AWAY, yet there are only a small percentage (300-500 players at peak hours; from what i've witnessed) actually playing the game. I've put in a good amount of hours in the beta thus far, n i really can see the greatness that DUST 514 can achieve, but i'm afraid to say that it solely the console is the wrong place for it.

You are able to start in any suit, with almost any gun with loads of upgrades. The stuff you pay isk for isn't much better. It's the passive bonuses.
@ five times infinity.
You know that 6 million SP yeah? And you have crap shields and crap hp.

The gear isn't important due to cost and resources. They will become null sec only, like super caps.
I'm happy to see matchmaking, but it never works. Wait and see there.

I've been over the stats for SP in too many posts but essentially, 8-10 mil sp is over 100% more effective compared to someone with 300-1mil SP. 25%shield25%regen30%damage25%accuracy. 100% more effective in THE SAME SUIT. There are more skills which would help I cba to post here.

I AM NOT SAYING REMOVE THEM.
Just reduce the bonus. It's epic.
I'm asking this from the point of view of someone who got bored of gettin ezkills. And received hate mail because I'm OP lol.

@nukem
Yeah because the planet side 2 ALPHA doesn't look 10000 times better than the Dust Beta. Dust is fail on PC. The reason the console guys don't bother Playin is because it's pretty crappy at the moment. You can see potential. Others can see potential for epic fail. Just look around the forums. LoLDust on PC. LoL indeed.

Yeah bud i do remember it took me years to get in to different types of ships but I stuck around, The difference is that not all will wait, I tried to get my friends to join me in EVE but when they saw how long it takes to get into those ships none stayed! MY son lasted one year and said im done hes on xbox at least 5 to 7 hours a day with his friends and they wont put up with waiting to fit into anything thats the problem CCP is going to run into with DUST these console guys want it NOW not years from NOW.

Most of the responses that are in the forums now are from eve players, im waiting to here just from console players that have not played one day or even herd of eve to get there take, CCP maid this game to get them not us from EVE and by the way you should take a pole and see how many EVE players dont want this game to make it you may be shocked!

So newcomers that come in looking for a MMO will have to play in a Matchmaking FPS (High-sec); do you really think this is fine?
This idea that the game has to babysit players into the action is so RPG and so anti FPS.
Holding players' hand in FPS is a mistake...a big one.
Separating players based on their SP is also bad in a FPS MMO; Why would anyone play a FPS MMO just to be stuck with a ranked FPS?

Needing in-game skills & unlocks to compete appropriately is something that won't be appealing to someone that has played FPS for decades.
Would you ask a Tekken veteran to unlock moves for his favourite character or he can't compete appropriately?

Some games like FPS & Fighting Games are based on player's skills and if you "limit" what a skilled player can do you inevitably negate their true essence.
What works for RPG doesn't work for FPS!
What works for EVE doesn't work for Dust 514.

Also are maps in Low/Null-sec perpetual battlefields?

This "instant gratification" you speak of is the bane of every society. Teaching our children patience and working toward a long term goal can help alleviate this undesirable behaviour. There might be quite a few EVE players that don't want this game. There are also quite a few who do. Regardless, I doubt CCP is going to scrap the game. So you might as well accept reality and live with it.

I disagree totally with people saying this is not a console game. The writing is NOT "on the wall"! The game hasn't even gone live yet. SERIOUSLY?!? While I agree that the game could benifit from the added functionality that a true computer brings to the table, the PS3 is quite capable of handling what this game requires. Yes there have been thousands of keys handed out. And if you truly think about timezones and daily allowable play time in peoples schedules you would see that actually the total number of players has skyrocketed in the last 2 months (give or take). When I started beta you were lucky to see 100 people on any given server at any given time of day... Now you can regularly find 300-500 on some servers at any given time of the day.

It is true that there will be a certiain amount of "player" attrition that this game will go through. Every game does. And quite frankly (no offense to them) those people who drop out for one reason or another; all the more power to them. Those that stay will find themselves a part of the first game of its genre and one that every game developer will be trying to copy. (Look up other upcoming games and see how many are copying CCP's ideas on MMOFPS or cross-game/platrform interlinks. World of Tanks/Planes and Battleships anyone?) Good ol fashioned FPS are cool and all, but they grow stale quickly with the same gameplay over and over. And they are a dime a dozen... How many CoD's are there now? How many Medal of Honor's? Personally I'm willing to give CCP the benifit of the doubt and see where this game is going before I condemn it.

Those of you who really think this game is going nowhere, I wish you luck in your search for a better game.

P.S. No I'm not a "fanboy"... I'm just far less pessimistic than the rest of you.

This "instant gratification" you speak of is the bane of every society. Teaching our children patience and working toward a long term goal can help alleviate this undesirable behaviour. There might be quite a few EVE players that don't want this game. There are also quite a few who do. Regardless, I doubt CCP is going to scrap the game. So you might as well accept reality and live with it. I disagree totally with people saying this is not a console game. The writing is NOT "on the wall"! The game hasn't even gone live yet. SERIOUSLY?!? While I agree that the game could benifit from the added functionality that a true computer brings to the table, the PS3 is quite capable of handling what this game requires. Yes there have been thousands of keys handed out. And if you truly think about timezones and daily allowable play time in peoples schedules you would see that actually the total number of players has skyrocketed in the last 2 months (give or take). When I started beta you were lucky to see 100 people on any given server at any given time of day... Now you can regularly find 300-500 on some servers at any given time of the day. It is true that there will be a certiain amount of "player" attrition that this game will go through. Every game does. And quite frankly (no offense to them) those people who drop out for one reason or another; all the more power to them. Those that stay will find themselves a part of the first game of its genre and one that every game developer will be trying to copy. (Look up other upcoming games and see how many are copying CCP's ideas on MMOFPS or cross-game/platrform interlinks. World of Tanks/Planes and Battleships anyone?) Good ol fashioned FPS are cool and all, but they grow stale quickly with the same gameplay over and over. And they are a dime a dozen... How many CoD's are there now? How many Medal of Honor's? Personally I'm willing to give CCP the benifit of the doubt and see where this game is going before I condemn it. Those of you who really think this game is going nowhere, I wish you luck in your search for a better game. P.S. No I'm not a "fanboy"... I'm just far less pessimistic than the rest of you.

the typical console fps player, (which is the target audience of course)

I'm pretty sure it's NOT, actually.

They're after the people who AREN'T sitting there waiting to pour everything into the next CoD or BF game, and instead want something NEW and DIFFERENT, but who play those games as placeholders while hoping for a change.

So I have been enjoying the beta, and I love the potential DUST has to be a great experience, but it currently has one big problem that will hold it back.

People who start playing Dust (lets say a month) after launch don't have even a small chance when going up against someone who had been playing since launch. And from my own personal experience, I am never turned off from a multiplayer game faster than when other players are destroying me solely based on their equipment. New players will feel helpless and then quickly turn away.

I am not saying a new player should be able to easily take down someone who has been playing for months, but they should have a fighting chance.

Of course, Dust being what it is, it will be really hard to make that balance.

While something "NEW" and "DIFFERENT" is always a good thing, the typical console player won't embrace the complexities that DUST 514 brings to the table. A large pool of console players who play shooters are strictly about k/d ratio n that is it.

A large pool of console players won't be interested.

Another, equally large pool of console players ARE interested. And we're also drawing a portion of the EVE crowd in from PC, along with a few of their friends who wouldn't NORMALLY be interested, but are willing to give it a look and help out their spacer friends from ground level. Having friends in a tie-in game like EVE is for DUST can be enough incentive for some people to stick with something that's a little off their usual preference.

One of my best friends can happily play a game with instant gratification for HOURS on end, but has no patience for games with long-running skill trees and things. I'm planning to suggest that he downloads the game and sets up several characters, then leaves it alone until he's built up a decent collection of SP from the passive gains so he can start off with a bit of an edge over other noobs. I suspect that if he gets to see immediate returns like he will with that SP headstart, he'll probably be able to get into the game easier than he would picking it up day one.

WOW dowload the game wait for a year to build up SP then come and play with me thats what your going with!

GET RID OF SP NOW BEFORE ITS TO LATE!! YOU MADE ARE CASE THANKS

Nobody said a new player HAS to fight in HighSec.
You can go out into the less-regulated areas if you WANT to die horribly against over-geared enemies, if you really want to.

So you can play in low/null-sec but then you are naturally disadvantaged: worst gear, not enough SP, nobody wants you because you don't have a stat next to you name, etc...
This is just like in RPG where player at lvl 3 character can't compete with players at level 30.
In FPS if you get you ass kicked is because you are not good enough but not because the structure of the game says so: I can jump in BF 3 hardcore mode, or Arma, an do well with the basic SR/AR/SMG because I have the right skills not because I have the right SP.
RPG freedom is not FPS freedom!

Plus CCP has devised a PVE system exactly because it doesn't expect you to jump in null-sec immediately: they want us to first PVE then to PVP just like RPG.
They built the game on the idea that there must be ranks in Dust and danger zones like RPG.

And the game's not trying to be a typical FPS. Is it first-person? Yes. Do you shoot people? Yes. Does that mean it's impossible, by definition, for it to NOT be FPS? Yes. Stop saying it's anti-FPS when it's only anti-convention. And welcome to New Eden.

First the important thing is how you shoot people.
Second: FPS is a genre built with certain characteristic so you can't alter them too much and expect to work.

Although, in spite of what I just said, I think they need to scale back the level of "upgrade-ness" from one suit to the next. Instead of having a sequential system where every suit has a different price and is a direct upgrade from the previous, they need to add "side-grades" where one suit has a larger weapon slot, and another has more armour, and a third suit could have an extra module slot.

Militia suits in each class could have baseline stats for everything, then there could be 3 - 5 versions of the standard suit, one of which is an "all-rounder" with small upgrades to several aspects. The others would be more specialised to fine-tune them for a specific playstyle. This all-rounder suit could then be used as the baseline for an equivalent upgrade going to Advanced, then the same pattern will follow for Prototype suits. You still get a wide variety of different gear to save up and buy, but you'll be using it VERY differently.

This happens is because Dust 514 uses another RPG element: rarity.
Militia = CommonAdvanced = Rare. Prototype = Ultra Rare.

This "instant gratification" you speak of is the bane of every society. Teaching our children patience and working toward a long term goal can help alleviate this undesirable behaviour. There might be quite a few EVE players that don't want this game. There are also quite a few who do. Regardless, I doubt CCP is going to scrap the game. So you might as well accept reality and live with it.

You mistake instant gratification with learning curve: Instant gratification is you having fun without having to learn much.
All games have learning curve but undeniably FPS are very immediate: pick, point, shoot.
it takes time to be good in every VG but here nobody nobody spoke about getting good!

I disagree totally with people saying this is not a console game. The writing is NOT "on the wall"! The game hasn't even gone live yet. SERIOUSLY?!? While I agree that the game could benifit from the added functionality that a true computer brings to the table, the PS3 is quite capable of handling what this game requires. Yes there have been thousands of keys handed out. And if you truly think about timezones and daily allowable play time in peoples schedules you would see that actually the total number of players has skyrocketed in the last 2 months (give or take). When I started beta you were lucky to see 100 people on any given server at any given time of day... Now you can regularly find 300-500 on some servers at any given time of the day.

I agree but the more I see Dut 514 the more I see a PC mentality driving this project.
The fact that CCP introduced MKB is a undeniable proof that they want to cater to PC players.

It is true that there will be a certiain amount of "player" attrition that this game will go through. Every game does. And quite frankly (no offense to them) those people who drop out for one reason or another; all the more power to them. Those that stay will find themselves a part of the first game of its genre and one that every game developer will be trying to copy. (Look up other upcoming games and see how many are copying CCP's ideas on MMOFPS or cross-game/platrform interlinks. World of Tanks/Planes and Battleships anyone?) Good ol fashioned FPS are cool and all, but they grow stale quickly with the same gameplay over and over. And they are a dime a dozen... How many CoD's are there now? How many Medal of Honor's? Personally I'm willing to give CCP the benifit of the doubt and see where this game is going before I condemn it.

No CCP din't come out with anything new: EVE integration is unique but the rests (gameplay, RPG elements, the MMO side) is not new.
Also it doesn't matter if Dust 514 it's the first of its kind: that won't matter if it's not good enough.
Bungie is making a FPS MMO and they want it to be WoW in space: if they do better why should I stick with Dust 514?
For the integration with EVE? For a inferior FPS experience?

Those of you who really think this game is going nowhere, I wish you luck in your search for a better game.
P.S. No I'm not a "fanboy"... I'm just far less pessimistic than the rest of you.

As I said Bungie is making a FPS MMO and Sony now owes Gaikai so PlanetSide 2 can arrive on PS4 thanks to cloud gaming. The search for better games will end soon.

I must first apologize to those of you who thought I was yelling. I do have a bad habit of leaving the caps on. At times it is just because I am trying to make a quick comment/point.
I am also aware of my grammar error. I just didn't realize that someone with such "maturity" and educational standards would have the time to sit around and read/respond to these message boards. I will be sure to reread my posts and not be so quick to post my comments in the future.
I am patient. I have been very patient. My "rational argument" is actually for those people who haven't been on Eve for years. I have spoken to several other gamers, trying to convince them to come try Dust. Their complaints are all the same. The time they have to invest is not something they are looking to do. The ignorant comments from the PC players about the console players are ridiculous. For a game to truly be as big as they want it to be, they must be able to target many people. I play both PC and console games. I enjoy both. I also enjoy strategy games. Yes, games that require thought. I have been on Eve for over six years. Yes, it's true, my reading comprehension has allowed me to play with the intellectuals for that long.
I surely hope you are not a representative of CCP, because with the disrespectual way you talk to veteran Eve players, you may just cost them a few accounts.
To insult the console players is not the way to bring them in to play the game. Obviously you feel that your intellect is far above the rest, I hope you are able to understand my English this time around. I will continue to work on my poetry but in the meantime, please feel free to spell/grammar check me.

[quote=jus nukem]

I think all this debate certainly highlights a need for some kind of "safety net" for new players. This is a free game that can easily be deleted off the PS3 at no consequence to the player, so it really needs to grab you by the 2nd or 3rd match. Getting hosed by higher level players will not be fun and will result in "Well, this game sucks....DELETE" a lot of the time. CCP has their work cut out for them.

And, I might be wrong, but I was under the impression that all the Beta Characters are going to be wiped when the gold version releases, i.e. we will ALL be back to sqaure one with our characters. IF that is the case, I do hope that CCP hooks up us Beta Testers with SOMETHING! Maybe some extra BPO's or maybe lets us keep a percentage of the SP we have earned? I assume this because of the disclaimer when I got the Merc Pack saying that I would have ALL my AUR refunded...

Pre-release wipe - some people have said (I haven't seen a confirmed source personally) that we'll get about a week after the wipe before the actual release. But in saying that, keep in mind we're currently earning SP at 4x the intended rate.

.

your kidding us right 4x intended.

going to be very brutal here, if that sp gain is not shifted higher, people will not play dust. hell i am very a tuned to the skilling here, but even i am struggling to gain sp . my max ever was 20,000 my reaction " omfg its mah birthdayz ?" or ccp done a booboo. now its barely 8,000sp max. no wonder the camping is rife, its not KB hoe's, its a flawed game mechanic to gain SP on a higher level that others !!

boosters for arum to speed up the SP gain, NO if is just arum it is unfair. those boosters should also be purchased with isk
if need be CCP needs to bring in Learning skills to dust, so that sp gain can be boosted alot.
the skill tree works for eve it is a very long term game, what works in eve sometimes does not work in other games.

A large pool of console players won't be interested.

Another, equally large pool of console players ARE interested. And we're also drawing a portion of the EVE crowd in from PC, along with a few of their friends who wouldn't NORMALLY be interested, but are willing to give it a look and help out their spacer friends from ground level. Having friends in a tie-in game like EVE is for DUST can be enough incentive for some people to stick with something that's a little off their usual preference.

One of my best friends can happily play a game with instant gratification for HOURS on end, but has no patience for games with long-running skill trees and things. I'm planning to suggest that he downloads the game and sets up several characters, then leaves it alone until he's built up a decent collection of SP from the passive gains so he can start off with a bit of an edge over other noobs. I suspect that if he gets to see immediate returns like he will with that SP headstart, he'll probably be able to get into the game easier than he would picking it up day one.