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Enzo Entech Algintal Core Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2012.07.13 04:11:00 - [1] - Quote So I have been enjoying the beta, and I love the potential DUST has to be a great experience, but it currently has one big problem that will hold it back. People who start playing Dust (lets say a month) after launch don't have even a small chance when going up against someone who had been playing since launch. And from my own personal experience, I am never turned off from a multiplayer game faster than when other players are destroying me solely based on their equipment. New players will feel helpless and then quickly turn away. I am not saying a new player should be able to easily take down someone who has been playing for months, but they should have a fighting chance. Of course, Dust being what it is, it will be really hard to make that balance.
DrunkMonk 1 Walmart Brand Mercenaries 26	Posted - 2012.07.13 04:17:00 - [2] - Quote I agree
RolyatDerTeufel D3ath D3alers RISE of LEGION 1648	Posted - 2012.07.13 04:18:00 - [3] - Quote We're at a lot faster SP gain. People will be ahead, and that's the name of a MMO but We'll hopefully see something to keep the stomping on the newbs down a bit after launch (corp matches?)
Enzo Entech Algintal Core Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2012.07.13 04:20:00 - [4] - Quote I only have two ideas I can think of that might give new players a fighting chance. 1. In match making group players with similar amounts of skill points together in the same game. This will help avoid new players from playing against extremely strong players. Of course this probably wont work for corporation contracts, if that system works the way I believe it does. 2. All types of armor have a set amount of shields and armor. Of course there is a difference between heavy, medium, and light, but when you buy better armor, the amount of shields and armor stay the same. Experienced players would still have stronger weapons, but new players would have a chance to still take them down. I've played a match where I was using the most basic assault rifle and couldn't even bring down the shields of someone in an assault drop suit.
Enzo Entech Algintal Core Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2012.07.13 04:26:00 - [5] - Quote RolyatDerTeufel wrote: We're at a lot faster SP gain. People will be ahead, and that's the name of a MMO but We'll hopefully see something to keep the stomping on the newbs down a bit after launch (corp matches?) Yeah, but they have said they want to attract the casual to be able to just jump in and play, and right now the casual player would just jump in and get kicked in the nuts.
Longshot Ravenwood Algintal Core Gallente Federation 680	Posted - 2012.07.13 04:43:00 - [6] - Quote Made a new character that I've been using (Reckless Longshot) to get a more first hand feel of how the difference in equipment & training over time may affect game-play balance. I've really enjoyed myself. The only gear I've used on this character are the starting militia suits & militia gear. I'm stockpiling my skill points for now so that I can give realistic feedback regarding how the gameplay feels from a new player perspective. Well, as accurate as I can with my experience. Wasn't top k/d by any means, but that didn't mean I couldn't find ways to contribute. I've taken out a tank that was shooting me & trying to run me down with my militia swarm launcher by the skin of my armor. Helped dominate the field by taking out defensive structures & manning turrets to assist with crowd control. Took out a gunner on a LAV with a sniper rifle then took his LAV joyriding. Set up a ton of reliable spawn points that ensured I raked in skill points from each match without even needing to make a kill. There are a large number of strategies to deploy when dealing with the opposition, no matter how overpowering they may seem. What' i'd like to see to help encourage gameplay without having long term players griefing new recruits would be: NPC Mission System based on standings that unlocks "higher level" agents with progressively higher paying missions & difficulty levels. Skill spikes that you can plug into your clones to give you a specific level of proficiency in a skill. Skill clusters that allow you to plug entire pieces of a skill into your clone so that you can pick up entire weapon proficiencies. Salvage drops based on your equipment (which is largely tied to your skill proficiencies). The Mission system & salvage rewards would encourage higher geared/skilled players to avoid lower ranked missions. The skills pikes & clusters will give newer players a chance to complete on an even field with older players (by improving skills and unlocking better equipment) & longer standing players the ability to customize their skill sets even further. Anyway - GET BACK TO THE BLOODSHED. We can argue about this in the downtime.
Enzo Entech Algintal Core Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2012.07.13 04:51:00 - [7] - Quote I get that, but I am trying to look at this from the perspective of someone who just jumped into the game and doesn't know about the different ways you can contribute besides getting kills. Personally when I first jump into a new shooter, my first instinct is to find other players so I can get a feel for the shooting, and then explore the alternative ways to gain points as I go along. The other problem with this is that right now the leaderboards in each game mode only reflect the players k/d, this gives the impression that kills are the most valued action in the game.
STB-poopchucker9900 EV Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 33	Posted - 2012.07.13 05:05:00 - [8] - Quote wouldnt you think that most people who jump in will be picked up by a clan , a lot of guys are going to be fishing for players and when a new player gets in with the right clan the members should help him level up quickly w/ their opinions and feedbacks on how to earn SP quicker. If one thinks they are going to jump in this game all john rambo style then they will be dissappointed rather quickly......just a thought
Enzo Entech Algintal Core Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2012.07.13 05:08:00 - [9] - Quote Yeah, but right now you are automatically placed in a cooperation, who knows how easy it will be for new players to find a cooperation. Regardless all they can do is help guide the new player, they can't help give them better equipment.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.07.13 05:52:00 - [10] - Quote All new players will start in a newbie corp just like in eve, the newbie corps are diffrent from player corps, werere all in newbie corps right now. dont forget at launch there is going to be high low and null sec newbies will be in high sec while most of the lonor veteren will be in low sec and well organized/connected corps in null.

Enzo Entech Algintal Core Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2012.07.13 05:56:00 - [11] - Quote Thats a really good point, didn't really think about how that would play a part in keeping game balanced.
Arcushek Dion Doomheim 73	Posted - 2012.07.13 05:58:00 - [12] - Quote Enzo Entech wrote: Yeah, but right now you are automatically placed in a cooperation, who knows how easy it will be for new players to find a cooperation. Regardless all they can do is help guide the new player, they can't help give them better equipment. You're also seeing all different skill level players bunched together. once the game has been out for awhile all of the higher level players will be off doing corp battles leaving the noob matches alone to the noobs themselves for the most part
Azura dark 31	Posted - 2012.07.16 18:39:00 - [13] - Quote could use matchmaking like bf games imo with player skill level, this is how it's done basically, this is what determines your skill level: You gain/loose Skill Level based on every confrontation with another player Killing a highly skilled enemy gives you more points than killing someone less skilled Points are not transferred from a player to another, they are simply added/subtracted based on the encounter and the Skill Level of both parts (thus, after an encounter, one part may go up 50 points while the other loses only 20) The Skill Level is used for matchmaking. i do think adv and proto gear shouldnt be used in highsec to grief new players also.
Vetis Cato Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 250	Posted - 2012.07.16 18:47:00 - [14] - Quote main thing you have to remember is high sp user will want to field high tech gear as sp alone wont win the day, in the current game modes (high sec equiverlants) you simply cant afford to run this gear at the end of the day this is a game were playing mercs who are out to make profit. to field proto gear you have to fight in high stake battles.
Anatoly Gasputin Doomheim 40	Posted - 2012.07.16 18:47:00 - [15] - Quote I think that the problem solves it's self considering that the EVE world is divided to high low and null secs IMO.
Dragon Grace Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 15	Posted - 2012.07.16 18:57:00 - [16] - Quote there is logic here to the OP. when paying COD or something, you level and unlock hardware....and often it can give you the edge, or the enemy the edge if you are new. however....there will be so many places where new people can fit in. there are a number of roles for new people to fill in a corp. i know a handful of people in real life who to be logi in eve....a support role. they dont kill much...they keep everyone else alive. and thats what they are hoping to do in Dust514 when its released. so there is no guarantee than new people will have problems fitting in. there are so many places for so many people. plus...is it not the same in almost any game. World of tanks is an example of the same thing. the only difference here is just like in eve....if you are new, you work to create your character and start laying the paving for your name and your legacy. Dust514 has just as much chance of people becoming icons and legends as in eve. you just gotta work at it thats all. anyone who has looked at what Dust514 is, and what its part of, before playing will understand this. EVE is HARD! DUST IS HARD! im sure CCP arent going to make it easy for the noobs. they didnt in eve and this is the same universe with the same dangers and the same war! new people in new eden are taught lessons quickly, and they learn just as quick. both in EvE and DUST. this isnt a problem in the game. there are so many thing that need changed....but this isnt one of them i dont think.
Vetis Cato Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 250	Posted - 2012.07.16 18:59:00 - [17] - Quote CCP Frame wrote: We are going to have highsec matchmaking system in place. /\ this basically.
Asher Night Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 79	Posted - 2012.07.16 19:36:00 - [18] - Quote I have to disagree that players will have a difficult time jumping in and getting kills. I don't think it will be any harder learning this game and getting kills than any other FPS. Why? Because there are so many damn one hit kill weapons. Once a new player learns he can... Smash some one with a dropship OHK other noobs with lower tier sniper rifles. You don't even need a headshot to kill the first two scout armors with a simple militia sniper rifle Run people over in vehicles OHK people with tank attacks (missile barage/railgun) OHK assault and scout with one pump up close with the shotgun Park dropships on top of buildings and just f@g away firing at people beneath him Sit on top of towers with a forge gun and nanovite OHKing everyone that stops to jack an objective Remote explosives. Nuff said. If anything this game is designed to get noobs to stay. Sure they will be frustrated figuring it out but everyone is that way when they first pick up an online game.
Lt Reddis Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 3	Posted - 2012.07.16 19:44:00 - [19] - Quote i agree. i consider myself to be quite a good pvp'er and fps player. i jumped out of a drop suit used the thing so as not to take damage and ambushed a guy hacking a gun used a entire clip which didn't miss only took of his shields and half armour (he was in a heavy) he turned around and used about 10 bullets and i melted. i ambushed him with skill he stood still and smashed my face in. i appreciate that skill points are supposed to improve your performance but i think there is some serious balancing issues here
Mr TamiyaCowboy Condotta Rouvenor Gallente Federation 121	Posted - 2012.07.16 19:53:00 - [20] - Quote Frustrated hell yeah. 270+ deaths to 26 kills( on first char, this is third). yeah i am not that good but, being run over by jeeps, camped by tanks. insta death at spawn sites, yadda yadda yadda. after 4 hours of above i decided i would try the US side servers, joined a US side fight and it was totaly different. squad leader hollering orders lighting up hostile points to take etc etc. it felt damn good, yeah i died alot but it was fun. the only fall down i can foresee is CCP moving to fast, going balls to the wall ( yeah soundwave am stealingz your words lol).

ilafey 29	Posted - 2012.07.16 20:12:00 - [21] - Quote You guys do know they wipe our chars before release right?
Asher Night Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 79	Posted - 2012.07.16 21:13:00 - [22] - Quote ilafey wrote: You guys do know they wipe our chars before release right? Haha, you silly goose. You misread the OP's post. He said anyone joining in after a month of the games release, not when the game is released. Silly gooses, I swear...
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.07.16 21:21:00 - [23] - Quote We're at 4x SP gain and you're ignoring the passive SP we get just for our character EXISTING on the game server. You'll be able to go in, create a character, and get sick of the game. Come back 2 - 3 months later and you'll be able to instantly buff a whole range of abilities and be picking up from a much less vulnerable position. In addition to this, we don't know how the New Eden HighSec/LowSec/NullSec aspects will be implemented into DUST, and for EVE, those are a core balancing tool. In HighSec, you're not immune to being attacked by powerful opponents, but it's MUCH less likely than in the lower security ratings, so you'll be more likely to have "fair" fights against other relatively new players when you're first getting into the game. And there will be PvE gameplay which allows complete novices to not have to compete against other players who are trying to kill them.
Bzeer MG GROUP 41	Posted - 2012.07.17 23:10:00 - [24] - Quote Lt Reddis wrote: i agree. i consider myself to be quite a good pvp'er and fps player. i jumped out of a drop suit used the thing so as not to take damage and ambushed a guy hacking a gun used a entire clip which didn't miss only took of his shields and half armour (he was in a heavy) he turned around and used about 10 bullets and i melted. i ambushed him with skill he stood still and smashed my face in. i appreciate that skill points are supposed to improve your performance but i think there is some serious balancing issues here Heavies are like tanks, in that your better off bringing a friend or two with you to finish the job... Even if your in an advanced assault suit.
Bzeer MG GROUP 41	Posted - 2012.07.17 23:20:00 - [25] - Quote Vets can't use all of their skill sets at the sametime, neither can they use all of their equipment at the same time, so a newb specializing Ina particular pursuit can catch up or even surpass that person In a particular role in a relatively shorter time than is usually assumed by those who moan and groan over the vet/newb curve in eve and dust. At least in eve, there's a reason for newbs to complain about being alpha'd as for all I know he may have lost his life savings on that stabber cruiser. Militia gear is free. Take risks, hack everything in sight, die a bunch, learn what you like to do, and the spend your sp, and isk specializing... You'll get as good as someone who has pretty much maxed out his or her effective potential In that role a Lot sooner than generally assumed. Meanwhile that person is probably spending isk and skill points on organizational capacity or things to increase his revenue streams none of which improves his killing potential during pvp situations.
EVICER 63	Posted - 2012.07.17 23:29:00 - [26] - Quote Arcushek Dion wrote: Enzo Entech wrote: Yeah, but right now you are automatically placed in a cooperation, who knows how easy it will be for new players to find a cooperation. Regardless all they can do is help guide the new player, they can't help give them better equipment. You're also seeing all different skill level players bunched together. once the game has been out for awhile all of the higher level players will be off doing corp battles leaving the noob matches alone to the noobs themselves for the most part Exactly
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.07.17 23:41:00 - [27] - Quote As a higher sp player running around in proto gear and extremly tight fitting equipment, all I can say that no matter how much I kill in a match I can only afford to die once, the payout for these matches is simply not enough or well worth the pwnage the protogear brings. So gear alone is not going to stop a rookie from killing me. Then the next thing is that most of the time its militia gear that is killing me in my proto suits so SP gapage is not as bad as you think it is. Teamwork, real skills, some knowledge and you can dominate better than some vets. This last weekend I was making alot of sagaris pilots regret thier choice in dumping SP into tanks now that I found ways to destroy them extremly quick and it only requires tier 1 and milita gear. So SP gapage isnt the case either. Also there is this thing called 'skill point cap' advanced eve online players know about it. Dust 514's is a bit more... expansive but its still there. For those who dont understand skill point cap its basically a declaration of all the skills a certain fitting can acheive to improve it that going beyond what is described in the skill point cap will not improve the performance of that suit an ounce more. For example being the best scout requires getting the biotics, scout, dropsuit command, sensors, demolitions, mechanics, engineering, shotgun sniper rifle, submachine gun scrambler pistol, light weaponry traits and proficencies, sidearm weaponry traits and proficencies, nano-hive, drop uplink, and grenades. Any additional skills beyond these will not help improve the scout outfit at all because they're all skills that help another class or equipment out that the scout cant use yet. Although dust 514 is a bit more expansive on the skills than eve is the point is the same there will come a time where the vet cannot simply improve a fit anymore than sp possible no matter how many millions more sp he has that scout suit is not getting stronger or better.
EVICER 63	Posted - 2012.07.17 23:45:00 - [28] - Quote Vetis Cato wrote: main thing you have to remember is high sp user will want to field high tech gear as sp alone wont win the day, in the current game modes (high sec equiverlants) you simply cant afford to run this gear at the end of the day this is a game were playing mercs who are out to make profit. to field proto gear you have to fight in high stake battles. Agreed +1
Logisticus Testing Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 17	Posted - 2012.07.17 23:53:00 - [29] - Quote this has actually been addressed by a DEV in this post, i believe. wish the forums mods could/would merge redundant threads. though i completely agree with the OP's concerns https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=25189&find=unread granted, i haven't completely read through the post, but from what i've read in similar threads, this is addressed. if somone else beat me to this link, my apologies, and i'll delete my comment.
Adun Red Brutor Vanguard Minmatar Republic 57	Posted - 2012.07.17 23:54:00 - [30] - Quote People have said the same thing about Eve which is of course a skill based system too before learning otherwise. All I know as a heavy with most my supporting skills at 4 and some at 5... Assault militias still take me sometimes. It can be done. CCP knows all to well that new people need roles they can fill as well. We are still beta. It is a good thought but I have confidence CCP is looking at this.



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