You ever think of the price and sp you have to invest to get a tank like that? A SH!T TON. Just get 3 dudes with swarms and a PLC or two and tanker dies

I think he has the views that he does because he plays PC, where everyone is overly prepared to gank a tank with Lai Dais and rooftop AV. In any other game mode, a Madrugar has clear superiority over unorganized teams through sheer mobility, firepower, and ridiculous durability.

[quote=Lone Wolf 777]To be fair, tanks are easy to kill if you make a plan to kill it. Yeah, they can take alot of punishment but lets try to think for a second....hmm....its a damn tank, get used to 1 person with AV getting swatted to the side like a bug. It should take teamwork to kill a tank. Not a few Lai Dais at a un-hardened tank to kill it, which by the way is absolutely ridiculous. You want to know what I do to deal with a tank if it becomes a problem with me or my blues, i bring out a tank. So stop whining, either use teamwork or spend lots of SP & ISK into vehicles. And if that tank kills yours, dont go crying saying, "It was lag!", "He/she is cheating" or one of my favorite, "Tanks are OP!"....lol. Just remember, your infantry....a tank is "anti-infantry". Who do you expect to win when your not using advantages and or teamwork.

Wanna know a secret? Its that feeling of invulnerability that you prey on. Two forgers can destroy a tank before his hardeners activate. Find a safe place and look at your map. A little prep goes a long way with AV

Assuming Armor HAV efficiency rates are above acceptable bounds and Shield HAVs are below:

* Limit all vehicle fittings to 1 hardener
* Decrease chassis and turret costs by 25% (all vehicles, all turrets)
* Decrease speed and acceleration of Armor HAVs
* Increase speed and acceleration of Shield HAVs
* Increase Large Missile Turret Reload Speed
* Increase Packed RE blast radius and damage

---

If afterwards, HAV efficiency rates remain out of balance:

* Decrease Large Blaster Turret Accuracy
* Decrease Large Blaster Turret Range

I can't even read the rest. You can get bent dooder.

Idk who beat you over the head with a stupid stick, but I'm here to put you out of your misery.

The simple fact that you are trying to kill Maddie's with anything but a forge/missile boat shows your ignorance.

Now your cries for nerf have awakened the beast.

I can survive your onslaught in my std gunnlogi, quafe even.

Your ignorant suggestions for vehicle rework tells me you have never once grown a pair and called your own tank.

So many ways to kill a tanker, but you do not deserve this knowledge. Even if you had it you would fail.

Your T count is too low to come at me bro. GOML

I can't even read the rest. You can get bent dooder.

Idk who beat you over the head with a stupid stick, but I'm here to put you out of your misery.

The simple fact that you are trying to kill Maddie's with anything but a forge/missile boat shows your ignorance.

Now your cries for nerf have awakened the beast.

I can survive your onslaught in my std gunnlogi, quafe even.

Your ignorant suggestions for vehicle rework tells me you have never once grown a pair and called your own tank.

So many ways to kill a tanker, but you do not deserve this knowledge. Even if you had it you would fail.

Your T count is too low to come at me bro. GOML

That's no secret. It's called outnumbering, and also applying alpha. Neither of those two should be required to take down a single player. That's unbalanced.

The back-and-forth above with Mosquito is responsive to his claims that "everything is fine because ...". My only claim above is that most HAVs don't sit still long enough to take 3 AV grenades from one merc.

It is my opinion that 2 or more mercs volleying AV at tank (prototype or otherwise) should be sufficient to threaten the tank. This often isn't the case with hardened maddies,

A 200k dropsuit vs a 1.3 million isk tank. I have no qualms with 3-4 needing to kill it because you can die 6 times them die once.

Absolutely correct. The only tanks I've ever driven were the ones I hacked and parked in the redline. Unqualified and non-expert suggestions (like mine) are precisely what you get when a class either cannot or refuses to address its own imbalance.

So wait, because the tank is moving it suddenly becomes impossible to hit three grenades? Tanks are not dropsuits, they cannot sidestep a clutch of grenades, especially since the things home in for you.

Getting the three AV nades on target is the basic part, because it doesn't require anything other than putting yourself ahead of the tank. Why do you think that you shouldn't have to think about what the tanker is trying to do, or where they will go next?



This is where you are 100% wrong. 2 mercs who want to kill a tank will, hardeners don't even matter. The tank runs or it dies.

Proto tank, complex plate, dual hardeners, complex rep. The most sturdy of maddy builds.

Versus 2 players with proto AV.

6 lai dais = Overkill, tank dead in 4.5 seconds.

12 proxies = Overkill, tank pops.

1 FG, 1 Swarms, tank dies on third set of swarms, after second FG hit. Might live 12 seconds.

1 FG, 1 Swarms, plus thrown AV nades, 1 volley each, one nade each, tank dead in under 5 seconds.

1 FG, 1 PLC, no nades, should be the second FG shot that pops it, if not the second PLC will.

1 FG, 1 PLC, with nades, one volley each, one nade.

Now, if one of those people is a logi, not only do you have Lai dais, ammo and proxies, you have the bandwidth to actually lay multiple traps.

The swarmer in the examples above isn't even a minmando.

A tank that stays in range and sight of 2 equal tier AV is a tank that doesn't finish its hardener cycle.

we need to look at other options (limit one hardener per vehicle, make armor reps active, etc.) to fix the tank issue.

None of your examples cited here have proof.

Well i got three in my maddy so bring at least that or youre gonna be back here crying.

Finally you're claiming balanced based on a single edge case while ignoring the fact that none of the other cases are relevant.

There's the underlying problem: Numbers-wise, your durability is exactly the same no matter how many players are in your tank. That's where the "1 player = 1 player" concept is getting messed up.

Tankers ask that they take 3 people to take down since they have 3 seats. Then they turn around and slap on a large blaster + 2 hardeners and be a one-man army, throwing the match out of balance. If that was your agenda, you got it. Congrats.

I'd like to see you tank. Would make me laugh my ass off as you get evaporated.

I'll give you the finest fit tanks, but since they are so strong, you break 'em you bought em.

I'd put good money on you going negative and losing 5 million ISK a game.

I didnt ask anything. Durability and survivability are not the same. Fitting only really matters when you are up against a decent tanker or Good AV.

My agenda. Lol. My agenda involves educating and training anyone that wants to learn something. I tank and AV. I know the weaknesses and strrengths of both. You can congratulate me when it dawns on you that you might not have all the facts.

ISK should never buy invulnerability.

Having gunners improves survivability. Never denied that. Not my point. My point had to do with vehicles being overly effective without gunners.

And I again made the mistake of lumping tankers together and thinking they all have an "agenda". So my bad, I didn't mean to make it personal. We should both drop the condescending attitude.

No arrogance intended, please enlighten me as to what I'm missing.

I kill plenty with my sica rail..you are a dumb av player..don't attack when his Hardner is on wait for the right moment and use the element of surprise..you really think a fit that takes maybe 5-6m and costs 200k ISK should insta gank a tank that takes 40-60m sp and costs 1.2-2m ISK? Smart players surprise the tank, most just use tactics to suppress tanks then QQ about not being able to kill one.

Heim! Just so happens that I snuck up behind your tank not so long ago. With PLC and Lai Dais, no less!

It was an Acq or Dom. Train Map. I arrived late in the match to find that we were more-or-less redlined. Spawned at the CRU in our ground spawn and was promptly gunned down by your Blaster HAV. Checked the roster; obvious stomp is obvious. Typically, I'd leave battle at this point, but you didn't have any infantry support nearby, so I thought I'd try to get you back first.

Spawned elsewhere. Scout gk.0 + Lai Dais + PLC.

Ran around the map and found my way back to you. It took awhile, but you hadn't moved much as you were still camping that CRU for easy kills. So I crept up behind and there I waited, cloaked, literally right next to you. Waiting waiting waiting. Your hardeners were up for what seemed like forever. I knew better than to open up on a hardened tank, much less one piloted by a competent player. Almost out of cloak reserves ... and then your Hardeners dropped. Finally!

I decloak, rush in and caught you wholly off-guard. Tossed my first Lai Dai and immediately followed up with a second. The first grenade detonated and you were on the move, rolling backwards as my second hit. You're hurting. I'm racing toward you with 3rd in hand ... have to get you back into grenade range before you mow me down ...

And just then, you slow down and activate your other hardener.
Of course you do. Of course you were running multiple hardeners.
Why wouldn't you be? What was I thinking?

Lol. Balance.

---

In hindsight, my odds were near zero, and I shouldn't have even tried. If V/AV were better balanced, my odds would've been closer to 50/50. Instead, you got outplayed and still maintained near 100% odds of success. With room for error. Even if I had hit you with the 3rd Lai Dai and a followup PLC blast, I still wouldn't have put out enough damage to overcome your second hardener.