DUST Search - Nerf impenetrable Madrugars already

Kallas Hallytyr wrote:

General Mosquito wrote:

I say three lai dais and a PLC round will destroy a dual rep Maddy, and simple math says it is correct. You said that two people should be a sufficient threat to a tank, I gave you a list of methods that would cut through a double hardened and plated maddy with its hardeners up. You can do the math and see that those examples hold up to scrutiny.

Not once have you, or breakin provided any sort of data, nor do either of you attempt to refute any of my statement with some basic math to show why they are wrong.

You won't even answer a simple question like how many seconds should it take a single infantry suit to destroy a hardened tank. Why not? Do you not want people to see how ridiculous your demands are for what you consider balanced?

Please reference this post for maths disagreeing with your PLC+Lai Dai statement.

As an additional point, assuming that the Maddy has no shields:
APLC: 1690 * 0.9 (profile vs armour) * 0.6 * 0.656 = 599
Nade: 1563 * 1.2 (profile) * 0.6 * 0.656 = 739 * 3 = 2217
2217 + 599 = 2816

Assuming this takes you 0.5 seconds to accomplish (and will, in reality, take 1-2), the Madrugar (assuming 2x PRO Heavy Reps) will repair 137.5. Subtracting that from the damage we arrive at 2817-137.5=2679.5 damage taken: aka, the Madrugar survives.


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Devadander Woodgrain Atari 362	Posted - 2015.07.16 15:32:00 - [1] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Assuming Armor HAV efficiency rates are above acceptable bounds and Shield HAVs are below: * Limit all vehicle fittings to 1 hardener * Decrease chassis and turret costs by 25% (all vehicles, all turrets) * Decrease speed and acceleration of Armor HAVs * Increase speed and acceleration of Shield HAVs * Increase Large Missile Turret Reload Speed * Increase Packed RE blast radius and damage If afterwards, HAV efficiency rates remain out of balance: * Decrease Large Blaster Turret Accuracy * Decrease Large Blaster Turret Range I can't even read the rest. You can get bent dooder. Idk who beat you over the head with a stupid stick, but I'm here to put you out of your misery. The simple fact that you are trying to kill Maddie's with anything but a forge/missile boat shows your ignorance. Now your cries for nerf have awakened the beast. I can survive your onslaught in my std gunnlogi, quafe even. Your ignorant suggestions for vehicle rework tells me you have never once grown a pair and called your own tank. So many ways to kill a tanker, but you do not deserve this knowledge. Even if you had it you would fail. Your T count is too low to come at me bro. GOML Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 362	Posted - 2015.07.16 16:59:00 - [2] - Quote I still post great scores in my gunnlogi. My madrugar has been popped more than once. Petition for cheaper tanks, maybe I'll be OK with them being crap when they're not a mil plus for a good one. And my forge is all V from knowing it's the true AV. I have zero problems driving havs, and popping them on foot. And there's many more just like me. You ask me to be constructive with a guy who wants to increase missile reload times... At V reload its still a bad joke. It's jokers like this that killed the module and turret variety because they don't want tanks in their gun game. Want to OHK a vehicle? I suggest CoD... Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 362	Posted - 2015.07.16 19:57:00 - [3] - Quote PLC is shield AV at best.... Even in my gunni, only a kubo makes me care a little. Edit: std gunni at that. You are, in fact, doing it wrong. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 362	Posted - 2015.07.16 20:34:00 - [4] - Quote I'll step OOC here and actually be helpful. As a tanker, my fears, from not scary to pure terror incarnate, are as follows: Nova knives - PLC - dropships - nades - remotes - other tanks - swarms - proxies - forge - unmanned rail installations True tankers see that last one and be like /nod. Proxies are only so high because of rarity, these days. Swarms are high because three guys with std swarms can put down a gv0. If I want to pop a tank, a good one, I bring a forge. If you are dedicated AV, you have more than adv and a few reload levels. Nobody is complaining about MLT here. We're talking about PRO hav. MLT AV can down my STD gunni if I make one tiny mistake. It's all perspective, a mk0 ass with a gk0 scout buddy go 44/4 against people with lower skills; working as intended. Vehicle drivers want epic vehicle battles, and just get waves of unprepared infantry; its game breaking... Bring an alldins for krins sake! Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 364	Posted - 2015.07.17 14:11:00 - [5] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: General Mosquito wrote: ... the debate is long over, and you lost. Right. Good job. When Rattati comes knocking, you should do exactly what you've done here. Parry his data with your excuses. Wow him with your intellect. Beat him with those brows. You should probably make a video of PLC + Lai Dais vs a parked and empty Madrugar. For fullest effect, get a buddy with a British accent to narrate the play-by-play: "See how easy it is to solo a HAV? This is why we need double-hardened and perma-hardened Madrugars." You have made zero actual contribution. So yeah. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 364	Posted - 2015.07.17 14:42:00 - [6] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Forge gun is only the most effective if you rooftop camp IMHO. This isn't something I particularly like. The breach is worthless if you don't roof camp and the STD is spotty in utility unless sniping, which annoys me. I actually submitted a idea to restore the old charge meter and use the overheat meter on the bottom right corner to indicate a "safety" that disengages the charge harmlessly after 5 seconds to lower the charge-holding sniper cannon. Dunno if that'll be a thing, but the rooftop thing actually irritates me intensely. It's not something I find fun. I'd rather lose six proto fits fighting vehicles on the ground than go 7/0 rooftop forging. Risk aversion is a foul concept to me. I'd rather get blapped by a rail while trying to approach. Never been much for heights. I stay low for HAV LAV, maybe one story up for a DS. Something about the angle when forging up high I don't like. On the ground I just look at where I would bail to and lead em a hair. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 364	Posted - 2015.07.17 22:47:00 - [7] - Quote In the spirit of being constructive. Last night I thought I would put this all to the test. Ran 10 rounds strictly AV, 10 strictly HAV. The results were interesting. About half the AV rounds were me blapping installations as nobody called any vehicles. 3 rounds MLT-ADV HAV were dropped, then promptly popped by the AFG. (no officer used) One round involved me getting 1-2 good hits on a known gv0 only to have her rush me, and her HMG gunner jumps out to mow me down. (I do run black eagle AR for my forge sidearm lol) This happened pretty much all round ending with 0 kills and yet like 2800wp from drugar damage. Lowl. Total lost about 2.5m. 7 HAV 4 LAV 2 DS The surprising part. First two rounds I ran gunni missile and was uncontested. Some MLT swarm wanted it but couldn't get it. Nothing impressive, 4/0 6/0 And then 6 rounds of fml... Scotty decided to drop me into started matches. Rings map decided to grab my front corner from 5 meters away and Austin Powers my gunni in a city gate. Popped. New gunni, by then half the team is AV, popped with both hardeners up. Gv0 with minute or two left, chased away by three tanks and more SL than sound chip could render... Late deploy, gv0, pop an LAV omw out and three rail tanks show up behind me. Popped. Gunni dual reg with rail, turned into a full match shoot out that got us nowhere. Late deploy, rdv slams into the ground nose first, half dead gv0 slides into redline upside down... Popped. Cv0, get to topside alpha on boulder rim, MLT DS slams into me and two scouts pop out and rain lai dai before hardeners kick on. Popped. C-l, afterburn my way around map, pop one LAV and dodge a roof forge for rest of match. Late deploy, cv0, chased around by an angry python with rail all match. 0/0 and 0sp... Late deploy on winning side of a 3vs13, c-1, nothing to do but pop installations. Late deploy on losing side of same setup, cv0 dual reg with turbo. Hounded from redline exit to my hasty retreat, three times. Jihad at redline depot. Angry at this point, gv0 4500 on line harvest. 4 MLT scrubHAV meet me at Delta. I pass out my business card. Two of the tankers ADV up and round two. I hand them a flyer just in time to get popped by unmanned rail... Cv0 rail for rest of match as we slowly advance to redline. Meh kills but 5100wp. Last round of the night, rdv yoyos my HAV for three or four minutes. Rail HAV out of nowhere... Popped before it can drop. Tries to pop me, run to depot and swap to alldins, dispatched rail. Run to other side of ground, check map, call gv0, as I fasten my seat belt... Rail impact. Barely escape, but now stuck in redline as I'm blaster fit vs g-1 rail. Match ends. (If I had my two gunners this would have been a different post, but this was for the one man theory..) Total lost 9.1m. 7 HAV 1 LAV 0 DS So for AV guys I suggest maxing out that forge, make friends with a tanker, and hunt in packs. Tankers should always have gunners, or make some tanker friends, and drive with lai dai's. TL;DR If you can't solo a tank, maybe not keep trying solo. And if you keep dying as a solo tanker, maybe make a 3 man tank and get some friends. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 364	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:01:00 - [8] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Devadander wrote: In the spirit of being constructive. TL;DR If you can't solo a tank, maybe not keep trying solo. And if you keep dying as a solo tanker, maybe make a 3 man tank and get some friends. Most of those are about the Gunnlogi, which is pretty spoton for balance: it can be killed with reasonable effort, but can also be a terror when operated well. The Madrugar, however, is the issue. From your own anecdotes your Madrugars were either not threatened or completely dominated by massive AV Swamping (3-4+; and still not dying) or rails. Without gunners or a support squad madrugar is almost useless. Gunni, completely. Kinda what I took away from the experience. Teamwork being confirmed as OP, I know with my gunners we would dominate in either hull. One AV one AI truly helps seal the god deal. So if the tanker has a squad, you need a squad to counter. What am I missing? Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 364	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:10:00 - [9] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: General Mosquito wrote: Where is the data you presented? Balance boils down to Kill / Spawn Efficiency. I've assumed (and I've said as much) that Madrugar Kill / Spawn Efficiency is disproportionately high. If the data isn't on my side, then my balance complaints are baseless and I'll stand corrected. If the data is on my side, then your excuses and "what ifs" -- while colorful and entertaining -- will fall on deaf ears while Rattati swings that hammer. I think it more probable than not kill/spawn efficiency data is on my side. I imagine you do as well. If you didn't, you wouldn't be so frothy. I killed more vehicles and infantry as AV than I did during my tank rounds... Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 364	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:19:00 - [10] - Quote The point of my long post was that solo HAV are so far from OP its stupid... "...got away alive" For 1.3 mil a pop I would hope so. But barely in some cases. SOLO HAV OF ANY KIND IS NOT OP. Having one squad member on foot multiplies my force. One in my tank more so. So on. When infantry and vehicles work together it's devastating. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~

Devadander Woodgrain Atari 365	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:26:00 - [11] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: General Mosquito wrote: I say three lai dais and a PLC round will destroy a dual rep Maddy, and simple math says it is correct. You said that two people should be a sufficient threat to a tank, I gave you a list of methods that would cut through a double hardened and plated maddy with its hardeners up. You can do the math and see that those examples hold up to scrutiny. Not once have you, or breakin provided any sort of data, nor do either of you attempt to refute any of my statement with some basic math to show why they are wrong. You won't even answer a simple question like how many seconds should it take a single infantry suit to destroy a hardened tank. Why not? Do you not want people to see how ridiculous your demands are for what you consider balanced? Please reference this post for maths disagreeing with your PLC+Lai Dai statement. As an additional point, assuming that the Maddy has no shields: APLC: 1690 * 0.9 (profile vs armour) * 0.6 * 0.656 = 599 Nade: 1563 * 1.2 (profile) * 0.6 * 0.656 = 739 * 3 = 2217 2217 + 599 = 2816 Assuming this takes you 0.5 seconds to accomplish (and will, in reality, take 1-2), the Madrugar (assuming 2x PRO Heavy Reps) will repair 137.5. Subtracting that from the damage we arrive at 2817-137.5=2679.5 damage taken: aka, the Madrugar survives. I already pointed out that the PLC is a crap weapon vs any HAV. Idc about the math, I know firsthand. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 365	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:31:00 - [12] - Quote I miss my chainlogi with 3 rof mods and a cooler. It would eat these gv0 alive. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 365	Posted - 2015.07.18 01:07:00 - [13] - Quote A one hardener limit would doom shield HAV. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 367	Posted - 2015.07.18 01:17:00 - [14] - Quote So can we agree that madrugars maybe only seem OP because the other turrets have trouble dispatching current fit meta? Edit: and shields cannot combat armor ATM. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 368	Posted - 2015.07.18 01:26:00 - [15] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: True Adamance wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: So, the AV vs HAV situation aside, instead of looking at how we can nerf Madrugars what can we do to bring the Gunnlogi up? I think that is where we should start.. I don't think we should bring Shield HAV up to a competitive level alongside armor HAV while we have two modules breaking tanks on a fundamental level. These being Armour Repairers and Hardener Modules. With the modules so broken what value would there be in bringing Shield HAV up to match? Right right, I cover that in my previous post. I'm starting to think that the problem isn't Hardeners so much as the Armor Repairers, honestly. But Shields -do- need to have their technical issues ironed out, don't you think? How is it fair that boosters are intended for a quick recovery but don't work while under fire whereas Armor Repairers work regardless? A missile tank can shut down a gv0 if it could just stay alive a touch longer. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 368	Posted - 2015.07.18 01:33:00 - [16] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Devadander wrote: A one hardener limit would doom shield HAV. Spitballing: What would happen if Armor Hardeners only were limited to one / loadout? I've been tanking since first build, after all I've lost already I hate the thought of more restrictions. I like the active rep module. We had it once and you really had to think as a tanker to make it out alive. But again, anything that makes tanks weaker should bring a cost reduction. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 369	Posted - 2015.07.18 05:09:00 - [17] - Quote I have to file this threadnaught under T. For Troll.. And just wash my damn hands of it. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~