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General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 87	Posted - 2015.07.15 13:43:00 - [1] - Quote hails8n wrote: Theres nothing like having a Madrigar survive your 3 boundless packed res, then your 3 Lai Dai packed nades, then your wyrikomi swarms consecutively and still have 75% armor, then 100% a second later. A pack of them together is HELL . Nope. IF, and I strongly stress IF, you hit a dual rep maddy with 3 lai dais and a set of swarms, it goes down. Unless you take your sweet ass time doing it, in which case it is on you for being slow. The fact that you need TWO sets of homing weapons to hit a tank suggests that your skills are not so advanced as to actually aim. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 87	Posted - 2015.07.15 13:44:00 - [2] - Quote Daddrobit wrote: ISK should never buy invulnerability. And for tanks, it doesn't. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 87	Posted - 2015.07.15 13:49:00 - [3] - Quote hails8n wrote: Its really not hard at all. Just tank in pairs that way you don't get crowded on by Av. Anyways with 2 hardeners and maxed skills you can always stay hardened. Yes, and a single hardened tank explodes under the barrage you described in the OP. Either that or he engages his second hardener and gives you a window where he will be without any hardeners and be an easy kill. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 87	Posted - 2015.07.15 13:54:00 - [4] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: A1ZEN AKUMA wrote: stop complaining get in a tank and have an amazing dog fight, pick up a maddie with a rail and blow some sht up. stop trying to Nerf something which isn't OP. if you want to nerf something look at the weapons on your AV fit and try to tell me they are not overpowered There's no AV fit in the game which is overpowered against perma-hardened Madrugars. The "if you don't like it, get one yourself"* argument is and always has been an indicator of imbalance. A permahardened Maddy takes much less punishment, and reps less than a dual hardened. Dual rep fits can be alpha'd through with either breach forges, rails, or proxies, or a triple Lai dai smack followed up with any STD AV weapon. Dual hardener/plate/single rep fits can be worn down before their hardeners finish cycling by all sorts of dog pile AV. The permahardened maddy is very difficult to take out for one person only if that one person refuses to use their mobility and all the tools at their disposal. AV who stays static can easily deny a tank access to a certain point, but the tank will have the option to disengage. AV who want to kill tanks has to actively ensure it happens. There is a lot of depth in the AV/Tank relationship, and ground troops have plenty of option, and more often than not use none of them. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 87	Posted - 2015.07.15 13:56:00 - [5] - Quote Aidualc wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I'm no expert, but I'm of the opinion that Hardeners are more to blame than the HAVs themselves. Why not limit Hardeners to one per loadout, like the cloak? Yeap, limit the dual hardeners is a solution, dual rep is not efective vs 2 swarms or dai lai spawn. But dual hardener now is op. Yeap many players don't wanna loose a 1M isk so easy, but in a PC battle. A tank can slay at last 15 - 20 proto dropsuis... That is the risk. If a tank is slaying 20 suits in your PC, your AV players shouldn't be in that PC, and your tankers should all quit. AKA, get good. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 87	Posted - 2015.07.15 14:02:00 - [6] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: SP does not equal invulnerability. there are AV players who invest just as much SP if not more into perfecting their AV fits. Your argument is irrelevant. In no way is a AV trooper spending more SP than a tanker. Tankers are not invulnerable. You know the last time I saw you, you were riding in a butter soft LAV in a match with 4 tankers on the board, and railguns on the killfeed. Did you drive carefully, using cover and geography to get to your destination? No, you drove across an open field like an idiot, and your lav got one shot by me. Even if I hadn't killed you, you were still barreling around a corner into 3 tanks and a red turret. You may have perfected your fits, but you aren't smart enough to use them. Mouthbreathers shouldn't be influential to balance calls. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 87	Posted - 2015.07.15 14:05:00 - [7] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: General Mosquito wrote: AKA get good. Pilots telling AV Infantry to "get gud". Another indicator of imbalance. Would you let a tank squat for 20 kills in a PC? NF, OH, etc would NEVER let that happen. First, their rail tankers are of enough quality to make sure that doesn't happen. Second, their battleplans do not allow a tank unfettered access to areas where grabbing twenty kills is even possible. Third, if a tank was being that much of a nuisance, they would change tactics to drop it, and limit its effectiveness. In a team mode, if you let one player dominate you, that is because you are a horrible team, not because tanks are OP. I'm not telling his AV to get good, I'm saying his team was a bunch of pubstars who have no concept of teamwork or strategy, and that is why they lost. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 87	Posted - 2015.07.15 14:06:00 - [8] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: General Mosquito wrote: Mouthbreathers shouldn't be influential to balance calls. "Mouthbreathing AVers are doing it wrong." Yet another indicator of a balance problem. This thread reminds me of 1.7. Yes, because the guy who drives an untanked LAV into a swarm of infantry, tanks and turrets should be listened to when they complain tanks are OP. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 87	Posted - 2015.07.15 14:13:00 - [9] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: A small window of vulnerability. Is that "waves of opportunity" working as intended? I've always thought it was intended to mean a short span of high resistance followed by a long span of vulnerability (as opposed to the inverse). If you can't kill an unhardened maddy in the thirty seconds that his hardeners are offline, then you shouldn't be playing competitive games. Considering that the time for a scout suit to deliver 3 lai dais and a PLC shot is less than 5 seconds, there is plenty of time to get your kill on. Of course if you were smart, when the tank showed up, you would just go and put proxies down on his retreat route, and let him have nothing to shoot at. But if you were smart we wouldn't be having this conversation. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 87	Posted - 2015.07.15 14:18:00 - [10] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: So, since these pubstars aren't NF, FA, or OH your tank get to trump their focused fire. And rightfully so. Because balance. How 'bout a compromise? If HAVs need be largely impervious to Infantry to thrive, give Infantry the same consideration. Retool Large Blasters as AV; set their AI capabilities equal to that of Infantry AV ... that is, lots and lots of warning shots followed by a brief window of "maybe", provided more than Large Blaster is simultaneously firing at the same Infantry unit. They didn't focus fire on anything. No debate about that. Any time 3 AV focus their fire on a tank, it dies. That is not up for debate, and people who say otherwise have never tanked in a PC. Most of the time 2 will do, but 3 will always do it. That isn't some long drawn out fight either, its 9 Lai dais and good night. Done in literally less than 3 seconds, no amount of hardeners will stop it. Every large socket has more than a half dozen spots where infantry can huck grenades from cover. Combined with places tanks MUST travel through to impact the battle in the large sockets, and tank control is trivial for a team in PC. You don't know anything about PC tanking. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.

General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 89	Posted - 2015.07.15 14:41:00 - [11] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: In your scenario, 3 units manage to sneak into grenade range, and then manage to keep your HAV in grenade range while tossing one grenade after another after another. That's not an impossible scenario, but it certainly isn't a probable one. Don't tanks move around sometimes, especially when taking damage? The scenario you've provided demonstrates plainly that you have it too easy. What's more concerning is that you seem to think it's OK. Focused Fire from 2 sources should be enough to make you sweat. Requiring focused fire from three is imbalanced. And the AV shouldn't have to be prototype to threaten you. What sneak into grenade range? All the Large sockets in PC have cover near and between every flag. Every flag has a location either withing a 30m approach or on the flag itself from which infantry can spawn and throw nades. A tank, in order to defend or attack a hack in the large sockets will ALWAYS have to put itself in nade range to do it. In order to get to that flag(assuming thats even possible) the tank MUST drive through a choke point, normally more than one. He also MUST retreat out of a choke point. You make it sound like tanks have all the advantages in the large sockets(where matches are won or lost more often than not) when the exact opposite is true. Focused fire from two sources means flee or die within 10 seconds. Focused fire from 3 is certain death, within 5and you aren't getting away. That is with two hardeners active. And tanks are OP? General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 89	Posted - 2015.07.15 15:00:00 - [12] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: General Mosquito wrote: And tanks are OP? That comes down to kill/spawn data; I suspect the affirmative is likely, but I can only speculate. If I were an HAV pilot, I'd be thinking in terms of contingencies just in case. Clutching that crutch and calling AVers "dumb" won't get you far if/when Rattati comes knocking. I have tanked since Open Beta, through good times and bad. Right now, they are as balanced as they can get. One ground suit is more than capable of killing any tank, provided that infantry is a better player than the tanker. They have numerous options with which to work, all of which are effective in different situations to varying degrees. Swarms are weak, and should stay that way. You need homing weapons, you should have to get in close and put yourself at risk too. Besides, minmandos with good skills in swarms are strong enough to force even dual hardened Maddys to check themselves. You can always tell when those guys are about, and they are extremely effective at area denial. One suit, no vehicles within 175m. Draw a 350m diameter circle on most maps, and that is enough area to hold three flags and win the match. I'll agree that the recent strafe changes have hurt scouts ability to completely dodge blaster fire, but that was ridiculous, and the scout suit is still the best AV suit anyway. The third equipment slot is really a more important swing for balance while it lasts. Heck, the increase in slots made for all sorts of cheap, AV fits that people could use. None of this applies to shield tanks of course, because they are crap. I call dumb AVers dumb, and if their friends did as well, they would get better instead of crying about it. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 90	Posted - 2015.07.15 15:16:00 - [13] - Quote Larkson Crazy Eye wrote: It's funny how many people think AV is OP despite the fact 3-4 guys can be trying to kill a tank and just die in droves. It's no joke that most proto tanks can kill 30+ people and never die, even withstand a major laser strike. 3-4 guys putting AV on a tank kill it everytime. 4 guys with swarms, no av nades, no proxies, nothing else but ammo, will pop a Gv.0 before his hardners are even done the cycle. If 3-4 guys are trying to kill a tank, they have no excuse not to. There is no fitting for a Madrugar that allows you to sustain 4 AVers shooting at you, hardeners or no. Even a theoretical triple hardened and plated Maddy would melt under quad swarms, let alone the good AV options. Any dual rep maddy fit pops to 4 lai dais, which coming from your hypothetical AV squad only means they each need to hit one. That leaves 8 more nades for the next tanks, and surely one of you has a hive. Between 4 people in that hypothetical squad you could layout at least 48 proximity mines. That is 8 kill packs that you can set up to close down travel routes. Three guys hoping out of a tanked LAV with Lai dais will turn ANY tank, regardless of fitting into scrap. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 91	Posted - 2015.07.15 15:44:00 - [14] - Quote Balistyc Farshot wrote: The issue is that as a Maddie, you can't fight another Maddie unless you have the dual hardner layout. The limitation on tank fits isn't because of tanks themselves, but because all tanks must fight off, or at least temporarily weather an AV storm to accomplish an objective. A theoretical dual damage mod complex heat sink maddy sounds fantastic until you remember that AV nades and swarms exist. Its part why the Gunnloggi is a myth in PC, because it can't drive up to a flag, drop off two dudes and escape without exploding. The maddy can do it, as long as at most two people are using swarms, and they don't want to get into nade range on its way out. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 91	Posted - 2015.07.15 15:51:00 - [15] - Quote Bradric Banewolf wrote: 1. Dual hardeners are already a pain to fit, and automatically require dual reps No, I can fit a plate, two hardners and a rep without a problem with perfect fitting skills. Bradric Banewolf wrote: 3. Shield tanks, like shield dropsuits, have long range weaponry (rail and missile turrets). They can fight from range. Shield tanks are overall just crap. Insufficient HP, poor module distribution, expensive fitting for shield mods. Lower top speed, no gun depression just make it so that a shield tank that wants to hang back at range can be rendered ineffective with terrain. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 94	Posted - 2015.07.15 18:07:00 - [16] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Right, exclude Tankers who claim that tanks are fine from balance decisions. Gotcha. One dropsuit can tank out a tank. They can use any combo of proxies, AV nades, PLC, Swarms. They can kill it through its hardeners. If they are smart, they can be effectively immune to the tank responding other than running away at top speed taking blaster pot shots as they gtfo. If they are really smart, the tank doesn't even know exactly they just evaporated, but they think they must have run into mulitple AV. So where is balanced to you? If one suit can eliminate any tank, how is that unfair? Just because you can't kill tanks because you lack the capacity doesn't mean it isn't done regularly by people who are capable of tying their own shoes instead of having mommy velcro you up and cinching down your chin strap before you walk to the bus stop. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 95	Posted - 2015.07.15 19:41:00 - [17] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: One moment, 3 infantry running proto AV are needed to pop a tank. Because balance. The next moment, infantry can solo any tank. Happens all the time. For real. Because balance. I said three AV will devastate a tank, right through its hardeners. If a tank gets within 10 metres of two people with Lai dais it explodes. If it says within shooting line of 2 FGs for more than 8 seconds it explodes. If it comes within 150 metres of two swarmers and does not retreat it dies in around 15 seconds at the outside. One infantry can destroy a tank. Pick the right spot, have the right tools, the tanker won't even see you. 6 f/49(45?) proxy mines will detonate Gv.0 Maddy with a plate from full shield, with a hardener running. Can be carried and laid down by scouts. A single logi suit can lay six of those traps, each one capable of completely destroying a tank. While still carrying ammo and lai dais along with a main AV weapon. Scouts can carry spares in case their first one gets wasted on a LAV, and still have a hive to reload from. You have many options as an AV player with which to either destroy or nullify tanks, and yet you cry as if you are helpless. So what about tanks makes them so "impossible" for you to kill? General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 95	Posted - 2015.07.15 20:09:00 - [18] - Quote Larkson Crazy Eye wrote: Armor reppers used to be active btw back in the old days. It rather sucked for armor tanks to be honest. Not that they were not hard to kill, but it gave them far to many modules to have to constantly keep active to stay alive. Making driving and shooting hard to do since I believe in those days the armor reps only lasted like 15 seconds. Back in those days shield tanks were king because of the fact shields were always regenerating on their own and I don't believe many of the current AV weapons really existed yet if my memory serves me. Not to mention armor tanks were super slow back then and all the PG mods had to be put on low slots, the same ones the armor related stuff went on. Active rep armor tanks were awesome. Much better and more fun than today. The only thing better than the old tanks is the reduced rail range making hill sniping non viable on most maps if you want to win. PG mods are still low slot mods btw. And armor tanks have had higher top speed since Uprising 1.0. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 97	Posted - 2015.07.15 20:16:00 - [19] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: General Mosquito wrote: You have many options as an AV player with which to either destroy or nullify tanks, and yet you cry as if you are helpless. So what about tanks makes them so "impossible" for you to kill? Back when Scouts were demonstrably and irrefutably overpowered, people killed them all the time. Same with HMG Heavies and the MN Assaults that followed. People pop HAVs all the time, but that doesn't make them balanced. So then, oh wise master of balance, how fast should one dropsuit kill a tank? They can do it in 6 seconds now, so where is the balance point? 5? 3? 1? Or would you just prefer that the nasty tanks that you can't kill not be in the game? Stick to ambush if you are afraid and unwilling to do what is necessary to win. But at least tell me why you think tanks are so hard to kill, especially since you have all the tools necessary to do the job. Please tell me why you can't kill a little old tanker with three lai dais and a PLC shot. What is so special with you, that you can't even do that? General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 100	Posted - 2015.07.15 20:44:00 - [20] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: The very best HAV Pilot is no more skilled than the best infantry operator. HAV kill/spawn efficiency should proximate that of infantry. If affordability is at issue, then affordability should be addressed as its own separate issue. Price tag is not relevant, and it does not excuse imbalance. HAVs should be good at resisting damage from infantry or dealing damage to infantry. Not both simultaneously, which is exactly what we have at the moment with permahardened blaster Madrugars. If Blaster Maddies are to be the "anti-infantry tank", then they should be made more vulnerable to AV counter attack, and they should be nigh helpless against Missile and Rail Gunnlogis. This could be accomplished by reducing large blaster accuracy and range, reducing armor HAV mobility, and reducing resistance afforded by cycling hardeners by limited hardeners to 1 per loadout. If introducing all at once would be too much, then pick one to start with and iterate. I'd suggest starting with the restriction of 1 hardener per loadout. You are appealing to a stat that can not be established, and is of dubious worth on its own. You want tanks to be more vulnerable than 3 lai dais and a PLC shot? So you think that any tank should just be one suits worth of grenades, no AV weapons or reloads needed? That is balance to you? A blaster maddy is helpless to a missile or rail tank, assuming both tankers are equally skilled, and not too far apart on SP. Yeah, you want paper tanks, which means no tanks in PC, so no endgame for the SP. I'm fine with tanks costing an arm and a leg, and being able to be killed by a single dropsuit, which is how it is now. You want an SP sink that wouldn't even be worth calling out, and turning the game into infantry only. If having vehicles in the game is so oppressive for you, there are plenty of FPS' on offer without them, go play that ****. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.

General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 100	Posted - 2015.07.15 20:46:00 - [21] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: This is not an argument worth having adipem. Same tankers, same tactic. Someone suggests a nerf, drown the thread in sh*tposts till everyone gives up. It's how they tried to derail rattatis rebalance thread for 2 weeks and 50 pages. This is the song that never ends. Simple question, can 3 lai dais and a PLC shot take out a dual rep dual hardener madrugar with its hardeners up? Yes or no? General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 105	Posted - 2015.07.15 21:29:00 - [22] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: TAG wrote: Simple question, can 3 lai dais and a PLC shot take out a dual rep dual hardener madrugar with its hardeners up? Yes or no? Assume each engagement begins with best AV odds possible; the grenadier is in range behind an immobile HAV; the HAV has no infantry support, and its pilot is entirely unaware of the grenadier's presence. After 1000 engagements, your best estimates ... In what percentage will we find the grenadier victorious? In what percentage will we find the grenadier dead? In what percentage will the HAV simply roll forward out-of-harm's way? How many other balanced settings are there in Dust where your Counter sneaks up behind you and has you dead to rights, and yet you maintain high odds of emerging victorious? What part of simple question eluded you? You are appealing to data that neither us, and I doubt even CCP could create. The situation you described is nothing close to the best AV odds possible, as a tank at rest can hear you pull the pin on your grenade. But I digress. Either the grenades and a plc shot can or cannot kill the tank described. From there we can further the discussion, but not until you start to acknowledge some facts. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 105	Posted - 2015.07.15 21:45:00 - [23] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: General Mosquito wrote: Either the grenades and a plc shot can or cannot kill the tank described. From there we can further the discussion, but not until you start to acknowledge some facts. The fact is that an HAV need only roll away when hit by the 1st grenade to be out-of-range for the 2nd or 3rd. If you're suggesting in a 'round about way that AV Grenade toss range and homing capabilities should be buffed, then just come out and say it. Stop avoiding the question. That you refuse to answer a simple question belies your intent. Are you really trying to become a CPM and you can't even handle a simple question without resorting hypotheticals? Do three lai dais and a PLC round destroy an dual rep Madrugar with its hardeners up? General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 105	Posted - 2015.07.15 21:47:00 - [24] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: I'm not sure that it'd make for productive design decisions or discourse, but if it pleases you, sure. Let's discuss balancing AV against parked and empty HAVs. So you edited the post, said you would be willing to discuss it, but still didn't answer the question. Interesting. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 108	Posted - 2015.07.16 14:17:00 - [25] - Quote Larkson Crazy Eye wrote: I think the better question is can you throw three grenades and fire a plasma cannon shot without the tank or any one else killing you first. AV at best is a glass cannon, a cannon that is only effective on one or two types of targets. Even amongst AV you got ones better at tanks, LAV's and Drop ships while weak or ineffective against the other types. If the tanker kills you, you lost the duel. If infantry killed you, teamwork is OP, get more friends. If a gunner killed you, same as above. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 108	Posted - 2015.07.16 14:18:00 - [26] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: General Mosquito wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: General Mosquito wrote: Either the grenades and a plc shot can or cannot kill the tank described. From there we can further the discussion, but not until you start to acknowledge some facts. The fact is that an HAV need only roll away when hit by the 1st grenade to be out-of-range for the 2nd or 3rd. If you're suggesting in a 'round about way that AV Grenade toss range and homing capabilities should be buffed, then just come out and say it. Stop avoiding the question. That you refuse to answer a simple question belies your intent. Are you really trying to become a CPM and you can't even handle a simple question without resorting hypotheticals? Do three lai dais and a PLC round destroy an dual rep Madrugar with its hardeners up? Thought I answered your question. A number of infantry loadouts -- including PLC + Lai Dais -- can solo a parked and empty HAV. That was not my question. Try again. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 114	Posted - 2015.07.16 14:20:00 - [27] - Quote Nothing Certain wrote: No, killing a hardened Madrugar is never easy and the "It is a tank" line of logic fails because that tank is just one player, one player should never be able to replace 2 or 3 players merely by virtue of their fit. Tanks are anti-infantry and infantry AV is anti-tank, it makes no sense that tanks should be able to kill infantry but not the other way around. A tank can be killed by a single dropsuit. The rest of your argument is invalid. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 120	Posted - 2015.07.16 16:08:00 - [28] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: The back-and-forth above with Mosquito is responsive to his claims that "everything is fine because ...". My only claim above is that most HAVs don't sit still long enough to take 3 AV grenades from one merc. So wait, because the tank is moving it suddenly becomes impossible to hit three grenades? Tanks are not dropsuits, they cannot sidestep a clutch of grenades, especially since the things home in for you. Getting the three AV nades on target is the basic part, because it doesn't require anything other than putting yourself ahead of the tank. Why do you think that you shouldn't have to think about what the tanker is trying to do, or where they will go next? Adipem Nothi wrote: It is my opinion that 2 or more mercs volleying AV at tank (prototype or otherwise) should be sufficient to threaten the tank. This often isn't the case with hardened maddies, This is where you are 100% wrong. 2 mercs who want to kill a tank will, hardeners don't even matter. The tank runs or it dies. Proto tank, complex plate, dual hardeners, complex rep. The most sturdy of maddy builds. Versus 2 players with proto AV. 6 lai dais = Overkill, tank dead in 4.5 seconds. 12 proxies = Overkill, tank pops. 1 FG, 1 Swarms, tank dies on third set of swarms, after second FG hit. Might live 12 seconds. 1 FG, 1 Swarms, plus thrown AV nades, 1 volley each, one nade each, tank dead in under 5 seconds. 1 FG, 1 PLC, no nades, should be the second FG shot that pops it, if not the second PLC will. 1 FG, 1 PLC, with nades, one volley each, one nade. Now, if one of those people is a logi, not only do you have Lai dais, ammo and proxies, you have the bandwidth to actually lay multiple traps. The swarmer in the examples above isn't even a minmando. A tank that stays in range and sight of 2 equal tier AV is a tank that doesn't finish its hardener cycle. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 120	Posted - 2015.07.16 16:11:00 - [29] - Quote 501st Headstrong wrote: A 200k dropsuit vs a 1.3 million isk tank. I have no qualms with 3-4 needing to kill it because you can die 6 times them die once. No, the 1 to 1 is fine. Once you actually need multiple people to take out tanks in a small number game they become oppressive. Thankfully, one suit can take out a tank. And it needs to stay that way. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 120	Posted - 2015.07.16 16:13:00 - [30] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Absolutely correct. The only tanks I've ever driven were the ones I hacked and parked in the redline. Unqualified and non-expert suggestions (like mine) are precisely what you get when a class either cannot or refuses to address its own imbalance. I'd like to see you tank. Would make me laugh my ass off as you get evaporated. I'll give you the finest fit tanks, but since they are so strong, you break 'em you bought em. I'd put good money on you going negative and losing 5 million ISK a game. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.

General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 120	Posted - 2015.07.16 16:32:00 - [31] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: None of your examples cited here have proof. You and nothi can get together and I will sacrifice tanks to prove it. I will hand you proto tanks and watch you whelp them into AV until you see what it is actually like. You say none of these things have proof, which is absurd. 6 lai dais destroying any tank is simple math. Same with the proxies. As for the FG/Swarm/PLC combos, its just more math. Tank HP, resists, and reps can all be calculated. As can the damage of the weapons and their firing time. Spend some time, and show me a proto maddy fit that can survive two proto av shooting at it through its hardeners. I assure you there is no such fit, and ANY fit you can construct will be dead before its hardeners finish their cycle. I find your screaming about bold faced lies to be interesting, care to expound on that? General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 120	Posted - 2015.07.16 16:46:00 - [32] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Finally you're claiming balanced based on a single edge case while ignoring the fact that none of the other cases are relevant. There is essentially no edge case. Even though I was responding to a specific argument made by Adipem, so it was kind of required. There are two basic forms of tank right now, dual rep, and dual hardener maddies. Anything else gets looked at wrong and it explodes. Either AV can tackle these mythical beasts or they cannot. I contend that they can. Hell a single minmando creates a tank free bubble, where even though he may not kill them, they cannot approach while he lives. All with almost no risk from the tank, as baring a lucky rail or missile hit he won't be touched, and a blaster can't reach back that far. Oh, and he can also swat dropships while he is chilling. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 121	Posted - 2015.07.17 03:06:00 - [33] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Had several million SP to spend a couple months back; thought about skilling into a Missile Gunnlogi. Something handy to thin the numbers of those oh-so-common blaster tanks; a go-to response for when the other side is running 2-3 tanks at a time. Was advised by a buddy tanker that it'd be an unwise investment, with Blaster Madrugars being what they are. Found it peculiar that the most durable HAV on the field also happens to be the very best AI option and is all the while sufficiently competent in its presumed AV role to hold its own against even a Missile Gunnlogi. No wonder it's so common. TL;DR: Will get around to skilling into HAVs, but not until they're better balanced. Of course you would ignore the offer to prove yourself right. I guess me laughing at you while you die to a single AV guy would be too much for your pride. Missile Gunnloggis shred Madrugars well enough, but they have critical weaknesses, and as such will always remain less used unless they are given much stronger buffs than any infantry player would want. Sure you can build a gank Gunnloggi that will hurt a Madrugar, but double hardened you will still have to reload, and that means surviving the return damage, which they cannot do, or attack from further range, which they cannot do. Add in that because of the turret depression problem, you cannot defend yourself when someone gets within 5 metres. Oh, and an enemy tank that gets below you will require you to completely expose your tank to get shots on it. Tanks will never be balanced between themselves, because the shield tank hull is crap, and even though you can buff around some of its problems, it biggest alleged role is nullified by the fact that it can't depress the gun, and so can't properly fight from high ground, and with a slower top speed and slower practical acceleration it can't actually fight from range either. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 121	Posted - 2015.07.17 03:09:00 - [34] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Found it peculiar that the most durable HAV on the field also happens to be the very best AI option and is all the while sufficiently competent in its presumed AV role to hold its own against even a Missile Gunnlogi. TL;DR: Will get around to skilling into HAVs, but not until they're better balanced. Its not the most durable, its the only durable HAV. There is a difference, and you would be wise to consider that. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 121	Posted - 2015.07.17 03:14:00 - [35] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Obviously. But had that tank been limited to one hardener, which would be better for balance, things might have gone differently. Right? Right. I've since found Forge Guns to be far more effective than Pro5 Proto Swarms, Pro5 Plasma Cannon, Lai Dais, or any combination thereof. Like I said before, I kill tanks often. But doesn't mean that madrugars are balanced. Fairly confident that they aren't, and it won't come as a surprise if/when they get nerfed. FG most effective AV? I smell a roof topper. Is that what this is really about, CCP not letting you kill vehicles from rooftops with no risk to yourself? General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 122	Posted - 2015.07.17 13:00:00 - [36] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Unless a tank is inside a socket, Forge Guns are the only form of infantry AV which work reliably. Well, they further away you stay, the better off the tank is, so you are doing all tankers a service by hanging in the back, so thanks I guess. Adipem Nothi wrote: In the vast majority of cases (unless inside), running up on a blaster HAV with Nades and/or REs is suicide. PLC and Swarms are little more than an eventual deterrent. Every tanker in this thread who isn't actively licking a window knows that this is true. Oh man, I laughed so hard at this. Adipem Nothi wrote: For awhile, I'd just ignore HAVs, which (sadly) is what I think most tankers expect of infantry: "Let me farm you and leave me alone. My stuff's more expensive than yours, so I'm supposed to go 30/0. If you shoot back at me, you're an idiot and you deserve to die. I'm in a tank." :: eats chips :: Wow, I know some people hate tankers, but you seem to have a pathological hatred of vehicle users. No wonder you can only scream nerf and will never admit that a single dropsuit can kill a tank. Adipem Nothi wrote: Recently got aggravated with multiple HAV spam. Thought about skilling into Missile Gunnlogi; changed my mind b/c Blaster Maddies are OP. Ended up skilling into CalSent and maxed out the Forge Gun tree. Missile Maddy beats blaster maddy, tell CCP to buff shield tanks if you want to see them on the field. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 122	Posted - 2015.07.17 13:07:00 - [37] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: General Mosquito wrote: Missile Maddy beats blaster maddy, tell CCP to buff shield tanks if you want to see them on the field. Buff them. I'm a patient guy. If in one build, both flavors of tank are made as OP as maddies, then in the next there will be twice the number of good reasons to balance tanks. Buff shield tanks wouldn't make them OP because maddies are not OP. Try and keep up. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 122	Posted - 2015.07.17 13:30:00 - [38] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Already two steps ahead of you, buddy. Do you really think that your ill-formed arguments and/or browbeating demeanor are helping your side of this debate? I'm just toying with you at this point. If you wanted to debate, we could, but you refuse to admit basic truths, and as such are not interested in debate. I have been forward and direct in questions, you have deliberately not answered and struck off on tangents. Since I am more than willing to stand up and defend my viewpoint, while you refuse to make any arguments at all beyond nerf all the things, the debate is long over, and you lost. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 124	Posted - 2015.07.17 23:53:00 - [39] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: General Mosquito wrote: ... the debate is long over, and you lost. Right. Good job. When Rattati comes knocking, you should do exactly what you've done here. Parry his data with excuses. Where is the data you presented? Where in this entire thread have you made a single reference that could be measured? How many times will you ignore pointed direct questions and keep pretending as if you bring anything to this discussion other than "nurf tankz!"? I say three lai dais and a PLC round will destroy a dual rep Maddy, and simple math says it is correct. You said that two people should be a sufficient threat to a tank, I gave you a list of methods that would cut through a double hardened and plated maddy with its hardeners up. You can do the math and see that those examples hold up to scrutiny. Not once have you, or breakin provided any sort of data, nor do either of you attempt to refute any of my statement with some basic math to show why they are wrong. You won't even answer a simple question like how many seconds should it take a single infantry suit to destroy a hardened tank. Why not? Do you not want people to see how ridiculous your demands are for what you consider balanced? General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 124	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:18:00 - [40] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: General Mosquito wrote: Where is the data you presented? Balance boils down to Kill / Spawn Efficiency. I've assumed (and I've said as much) that Madrugar Kill / Spawn Efficiency is disproportionately high. If the data isn't on my side, then my balance complaints are baseless and I'll stand corrected. If the data is on my side, however, then your excuses and what ifs -- while colorful and entertaining -- will fall on deaf ears while Rattati swings that hammer. I think it more probable than not kill/spawn efficiency data is on my side. I imagine you do as well. If you didn't, why would you be so frothy? You can't call your assumptions data. So I ask again, where is your data? Can you construct a gv.0 fit that can survive two proto AV for 36 seconds? WIll you tell the audience how long you think it should take for an AV troop to kill a tank with its hardeners up? You will do neither of those things, instead you will appeal to "data" that you don't have, and can at best make a half assed guess at, and given how biased you are against vehicles(as you clearly stated), you can't be called a trusted source can you? Love the appeal to authority in there as well, you are just a fallacious machine. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.

General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 126	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:42:00 - [41] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: General Mosquito wrote: I say three lai dais and a PLC round will destroy a dual rep Maddy, and simple math says it is correct. You said that two people should be a sufficient threat to a tank, I gave you a list of methods that would cut through a double hardened and plated maddy with its hardeners up. You can do the math and see that those examples hold up to scrutiny. Not once have you, or breakin provided any sort of data, nor do either of you attempt to refute any of my statement with some basic math to show why they are wrong. You won't even answer a simple question like how many seconds should it take a single infantry suit to destroy a hardened tank. Why not? Do you not want people to see how ridiculous your demands are for what you consider balanced? Please reference this post for maths disagreeing with your PLC+Lai Dai statement. As an additional point, assuming that the Maddy has no shields: APLC: 1690 * 0.9 (profile vs armour) * 0.6 * 0.656 = 599 Nade: 1563 * 1.2 (profile) * 0.6 * 0.656 = 739 * 3 = 2217 2217 + 599 = 2816 Assuming this takes you 0.5 seconds to accomplish (and will, in reality, take 1-2), the Madrugar (assuming 2x PRO Heavy Reps) will repair 137.5. Subtracting that from the damage we arrive at 2817-137.5=2679.5 damage taken: aka, the Madrugar survives. Sorry I missed your earlier post, but thank you for reposting it. Clearly, I was wrong about it being an absolute. Given the margin, prof wouldn't even push it over. Prof and a single damage mod would, although that would be too much leeway for my original point. Thank you for the correction. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 127	Posted - 2015.07.18 01:52:00 - [42] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: While mathematically the numbers might support the AVer (I doubt it, actually, but would need to run the numbers further) the typical battlefield situation supports the notion that the HAV will survive, due to the actual mobility of it. OK, so swarms will be longer TTK, and with forges you have to contend with the high fatality chance of an attempt that can actually land three grenades and a FG shot, along with the charge time after the last nade. I would think that buffing AV nade damage would be the simplest solution if it was the intent of CCP to have one dropsuit cut through a hardened tank. Kallas Hallytyr wrote:* 2516 (previous damage to armour) + 76 = 2592 damage to armour is still insufficient to kill the Madrugar. Applying the Warbarge bonus to the 'No Shields' situation I ran gives an armour damage total of 2930: sufficient to kill the Madrugar assuming a 0.5s of repair (137.5; 2792.5) but insufficient if the Madrugar has a full 1.0s of repair (275; 2655.) This is still assuming that the Madrugar is entirely immobile/the AVer is able to land all three grenades without the Madrugar moving enough (which is perfectly possible with a Fuel Injector.) Essentially, the math is extremely close to killing the Madrugar for a perfect ambush, but any kind of imperfection sees the Maddy survive. Similarly, however, if the Maddy hasn't activated its hardeners then it is definitely dead. And all of this is for a tank with maximum resist profile. So a tank can only exist in dual hardened state for at most 36 seconds, during which it must complete its attack and get AV safe, and the sit out the cooldown. Any armor tank that doesn't double harden can be solod by an equal tier AV suit without issue, I think would be a safe statement to make at this juncture. Having to play here is the doctrine, drive it or die in a fire, also, when you see AV run far, run fast is not exactly entertaining gameplay is it? General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.

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