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Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.07.17 14:51:00 - [181] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: we need to look at other options (limit one hardener per vehicle, make armor reps active, etc.) to fix the tank issue. Agreed. If deemed warranted, TA recommends increasing fitting costs for hardeners rather than introducing a hard cap. Thoughts? I disagree, because then it becomes difficult to fit anything else. Hardeners again become useless, since they aren't worth the cost. I see them used like siege modules from Eve of a sorts: and with one per vehicle, it becomes easy to balance them since you don't have to worry about people stacking them. Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Alcina Nektaria KILL-EM-QUICK Rise Of Legion. 32	Posted - 2015.07.17 15:04:00 - [182] - Quote The vehicle system in this game really needs some work. If it takes half the team to take out one vehicle that is a serious problem, especially with the genius way matchmaking has been constructed (insert extreme sarcasm here) There are always those assholes that run the stupid tank fits that are extremely OP. If tanks get to be so indestructible, why can't dropships be so too? I understand the isk cost, but it's just like running a proto or officer suit. Expensive but your choice to use it or not. If you are going to bring an expensive vehicle out, you are willing to risk losing that money on it. Regardless, if you have a team of 14 vs a team of 8 for example; the larger team is more likely to have people spamming vehicles, say 3 or 4 tanks. It would take the entire team of 8 to take them out which is extremely pointless because then they can't focus on the objective (worse in a domination than a skirmish) so either tanks need to be nerfed, av needs a buff, or the number of vehicles allowed in each match should be severely reduced. *KEQ Diplomat* Gallente Loyalist ... Come at me bro.
hails8n DEATH BY DESTRUCTION 367	Posted - 2015.07.17 21:46:00 - [183] - Quote Bump Get some life in your hands.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.17 21:50:00 - [184] - Quote Alcina Nektaria wrote: ... so either tanks need to be nerfed, av needs a buff, or the number of vehicles allowed in each match should be severely reduced. AV-wise, would have to be very careful about what to buff and how to buff it, as increasing pressure on Dropships would be ill-advised. Further, such changes would do nothing to address the fact that Madrugars > All Else. Personally prefer the most obvious and direct approach, which the title above sums up succinctly: Nerf impenetrable Madrugars already. So far, 'limit hardeners per loadout to 1' seems the most promising option. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Petra 222 SoM Opus Arcana Covert Intervention 106	Posted - 2015.07.17 21:57:00 - [185] - Quote People are really defending the current Madrugers? Can't say I am surprised but...Ring...Ring..."Reality Check calling"..."You're going to be nerfed".Click.
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 364	Posted - 2015.07.17 22:47:00 - [186] - Quote In the spirit of being constructive. Last night I thought I would put this all to the test. Ran 10 rounds strictly AV, 10 strictly HAV. The results were interesting. About half the AV rounds were me blapping installations as nobody called any vehicles. 3 rounds MLT-ADV HAV were dropped, then promptly popped by the AFG. (no officer used) One round involved me getting 1-2 good hits on a known gv0 only to have her rush me, and her HMG gunner jumps out to mow me down. (I do run black eagle AR for my forge sidearm lol) This happened pretty much all round ending with 0 kills and yet like 2800wp from drugar damage. Lowl. Total lost about 2.5m. 7 HAV 4 LAV 2 DS The surprising part. First two rounds I ran gunni missile and was uncontested. Some MLT swarm wanted it but couldn't get it. Nothing impressive, 4/0 6/0 And then 6 rounds of fml... Scotty decided to drop me into started matches. Rings map decided to grab my front corner from 5 meters away and Austin Powers my gunni in a city gate. Popped. New gunni, by then half the team is AV, popped with both hardeners up. Gv0 with minute or two left, chased away by three tanks and more SL than sound chip could render... Late deploy, gv0, pop an LAV omw out and three rail tanks show up behind me. Popped. Gunni dual reg with rail, turned into a full match shoot out that got us nowhere. Late deploy, rdv slams into the ground nose first, half dead gv0 slides into redline upside down... Popped. Cv0, get to topside alpha on boulder rim, MLT DS slams into me and two scouts pop out and rain lai dai before hardeners kick on. Popped. C-l, afterburn my way around map, pop one LAV and dodge a roof forge for rest of match. Late deploy, cv0, chased around by an angry python with rail all match. 0/0 and 0sp... Late deploy on winning side of a 3vs13, c-1, nothing to do but pop installations. Late deploy on losing side of same setup, cv0 dual reg with turbo. Hounded from redline exit to my hasty retreat, three times. Jihad at redline depot. Angry at this point, gv0 4500 on line harvest. 4 MLT scrubHAV meet me at Delta. I pass out my business card. Two of the tankers ADV up and round two. I hand them a flyer just in time to get popped by unmanned rail... Cv0 rail for rest of match as we slowly advance to redline. Meh kills but 5100wp. Last round of the night, rdv yoyos my HAV for three or four minutes. Rail HAV out of nowhere... Popped before it can drop. Tries to pop me, run to depot and swap to alldins, dispatched rail. Run to other side of ground, check map, call gv0, as I fasten my seat belt... Rail impact. Barely escape, but now stuck in redline as I'm blaster fit vs g-1 rail. Match ends. (If I had my two gunners this would have been a different post, but this was for the one man theory..) Total lost 9.1m. 7 HAV 1 LAV 0 DS So for AV guys I suggest maxing out that forge, make friends with a tanker, and hunt in packs. Tankers should always have gunners, or make some tanker friends, and drive with lai dai's. TL;DR If you can't solo a tank, maybe not keep trying solo. And if you keep dying as a solo tanker, maybe make a 3 man tank and get some friends. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1	Posted - 2015.07.17 23:30:00 - [187] - Quote Devadander wrote: In the spirit of being constructive. TL;DR If you can't solo a tank, maybe not keep trying solo. And if you keep dying as a solo tanker, maybe make a 3 man tank and get some friends. Most of those are about the Gunnlogi, which is pretty spoton for balance: it can be killed with reasonable effort, but can also be a terror when operated well. The Madrugar, however, is the issue. From your own anecdotes your Madrugars were either not threatened or completely dominated by massive AV Swamping (3-4+; and still not dying) or rails. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 124	Posted - 2015.07.17 23:53:00 - [188] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: General Mosquito wrote: ... the debate is long over, and you lost. Right. Good job. When Rattati comes knocking, you should do exactly what you've done here. Parry his data with excuses. Where is the data you presented? Where in this entire thread have you made a single reference that could be measured? How many times will you ignore pointed direct questions and keep pretending as if you bring anything to this discussion other than "nurf tankz!"? I say three lai dais and a PLC round will destroy a dual rep Maddy, and simple math says it is correct. You said that two people should be a sufficient threat to a tank, I gave you a list of methods that would cut through a double hardened and plated maddy with its hardeners up. You can do the math and see that those examples hold up to scrutiny. Not once have you, or breakin provided any sort of data, nor do either of you attempt to refute any of my statement with some basic math to show why they are wrong. You won't even answer a simple question like how many seconds should it take a single infantry suit to destroy a hardened tank. Why not? Do you not want people to see how ridiculous your demands are for what you consider balanced? General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 364	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:01:00 - [189] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Devadander wrote: In the spirit of being constructive. TL;DR If you can't solo a tank, maybe not keep trying solo. And if you keep dying as a solo tanker, maybe make a 3 man tank and get some friends. Most of those are about the Gunnlogi, which is pretty spoton for balance: it can be killed with reasonable effort, but can also be a terror when operated well. The Madrugar, however, is the issue. From your own anecdotes your Madrugars were either not threatened or completely dominated by massive AV Swamping (3-4+; and still not dying) or rails. Without gunners or a support squad madrugar is almost useless. Gunni, completely. Kinda what I took away from the experience. Teamwork being confirmed as OP, I know with my gunners we would dominate in either hull. One AV one AI truly helps seal the god deal. So if the tanker has a squad, you need a squad to counter. What am I missing? Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:05:00 - [190] - Quote General Mosquito wrote: Where is the data you presented? Balance boils down to Kill / Spawn Efficiency. I've assumed (and I've said as much) that Madrugar Kill / Spawn Efficiency is disproportionately high. If the data isn't on my side, then my balance complaints are baseless and I'll stand corrected. If the data is on my side, however, then your excuses and what ifs -- while colorful and entertaining -- will fall on deaf ears while Rattati swings that hammer. I think it more probable than not kill/spawn efficiency data is on my side. I imagine you do as well. If you didn't, why would you be so frothy? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 20	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:09:00 - [191] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: General Mosquito wrote: Where is the data you presented? Balance boils down to Kill / Spawn Efficiency. I've assumed (and I've said as much) that Madrugar Kill / Spawn Efficiency is disproportionately high. If the data isn't on my side, then my balance complaints are baseless and I'll stand corrected. If the data is on my side, then your excuses and "what ifs" -- while colorful and entertaining -- will fall on deaf ears while Rattati swings that hammer. I think it more probable than not kill/spawn efficiency data is on my side. I imagine you do as well. If you didn't, you wouldn't be so frothy. Can you guys quit this bickering. Adipem you are preaching to the choir. We already know how unbalanced Madrugar's are but fixing them is not about nerfing what we currently have it is fundamentally altering the design of HAV. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 364	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:10:00 - [192] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: General Mosquito wrote: Where is the data you presented? Balance boils down to Kill / Spawn Efficiency. I've assumed (and I've said as much) that Madrugar Kill / Spawn Efficiency is disproportionately high. If the data isn't on my side, then my balance complaints are baseless and I'll stand corrected. If the data is on my side, then your excuses and "what ifs" -- while colorful and entertaining -- will fall on deaf ears while Rattati swings that hammer. I think it more probable than not kill/spawn efficiency data is on my side. I imagine you do as well. If you didn't, you wouldn't be so frothy. I killed more vehicles and infantry as AV than I did during my tank rounds... Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:11:00 - [193] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: General Mosquito wrote: Where is the data you presented? Balance boils down to Kill / Spawn Efficiency. I've assumed (and I've said as much) that Madrugar Kill / Spawn Efficiency is disproportionately high. If the data isn't on my side, then my balance complaints are baseless and I'll stand corrected. If the data is on my side, however, then your excuses and what ifs -- while colorful and entertaining -- will fall on deaf ears while Rattati swings that hammer. I think it more probable than not kill/spawn efficiency data is on my side. I imagine you do as well. If you didn't, why would you be so frothy? I think Kill / Spawn Efficiency doesn't tell the whole story though. Match Making has been a royal pain, we all know this, so I'm curious as to how much factors and variables like that - not necessarily exclusively that - tie into the whole data read out. If a veteran with a prototype amarr assault ran with a scrambler rifle against a bunch of academy bros, obviously his kill/spawn is going to skew results. I think there's a lot more that colors a situation than simply how many times someone makes a kill compared to how many times they die. This isn't to say I'm disagreeing with the data so much as saying that I think there needs to be some serious consideration before we start swinging the nerf hammer around. I've always preferred the scalpel. EDIT: To better reflect my thinking here: Is it truly that Madrugars are over-powered or is that Gunnlogis are under-powered? Is it that players often refuse to run AV because it is a very risky platform? Is it that many times HAVs with hardeners were literally designed to be forced to disengage as opposed to always be killed? Volunteer For The PSD! Design A SKIN 2
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:14:00 - [194] - Quote Devadander wrote: What am I missing? Period: Uprising 1.0 - 1.5 Hypothesis: Cal/Gal Slayer Logis + AR are super duper OP. Test Method: Run MN Logi + MD over a dozen pub matches. Conclusion: ? Period: Uprising 1.8 - HF Alpha Hypothesis: Uparmored GalScouts + SG are super duper OP. Test Method: Run MN Scout + NK over a dozen matches. Conclusion: ? Period: Warlords 1.1 - 1.2 Hypothesis: MN Assaults + CR are super duper OP. Test Method: Run GA Assault + AR over a dozen matches. Conclusion: ? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Sergeant Sazu Mantodea MC 693	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:16:00 - [195] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: General Mosquito wrote: Where is the data you presented? Balance boils down to Kill / Spawn Efficiency. I've assumed (and I've said as much) that Madrugar Kill / Spawn Efficiency is disproportionately high. If the data isn't on my side, then my balance complaints are baseless and I'll stand corrected. If the data is on my side, then your excuses and "what ifs" -- while colorful and entertaining -- will fall on deaf ears while Rattati swings that hammer. I think it more probable than not kill/spawn efficiency data is on my side. I imagine you do as well. If you didn't, you wouldn't be so frothy. To be honest, I rarely see Madrugars break 10 kills nowadays. (Though their death count is always low.) I don't think the data would prove much. My issue is how much effort it takes to deal with one, and how many players they take away from a team for several minutes. This is something that can't be put on a spreadsheet or a line graph. So we have to go on what seems right based on reasoning. And we all know how well that goes. [65.1m SP] Sazu's Trading
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 124	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:18:00 - [196] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: General Mosquito wrote: Where is the data you presented? Balance boils down to Kill / Spawn Efficiency. I've assumed (and I've said as much) that Madrugar Kill / Spawn Efficiency is disproportionately high. If the data isn't on my side, then my balance complaints are baseless and I'll stand corrected. If the data is on my side, however, then your excuses and what ifs -- while colorful and entertaining -- will fall on deaf ears while Rattati swings that hammer. I think it more probable than not kill/spawn efficiency data is on my side. I imagine you do as well. If you didn't, why would you be so frothy? You can't call your assumptions data. So I ask again, where is your data? Can you construct a gv.0 fit that can survive two proto AV for 36 seconds? WIll you tell the audience how long you think it should take for an AV troop to kill a tank with its hardeners up? You will do neither of those things, instead you will appeal to "data" that you don't have, and can at best make a half assed guess at, and given how biased you are against vehicles(as you clearly stated), you can't be called a trusted source can you? Love the appeal to authority in there as well, you are just a fallacious machine. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 364	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:19:00 - [197] - Quote The point of my long post was that solo HAV are so far from OP its stupid... "...got away alive" For 1.3 mil a pop I would hope so. But barely in some cases. SOLO HAV OF ANY KIND IS NOT OP. Having one squad member on foot multiplies my force. One in my tank more so. So on. When infantry and vehicles work together it's devastating. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:21:00 - [198] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: If a veteran with a prototype amarr assault ran with a scrambler rifle against a bunch of academy bros, obviously his kill/spawn is going to skew results. The larger the dataset, the less anomalies like this will have the potential to "skew" it. Madrugars have been OP for a long time now, and there certainly are no shortage of them in game. I imagine Rattati has quite the robust sample to evaluate. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:22:00 - [199] - Quote General Mosquito wrote: I say three lai dais and a PLC round will destroy a dual rep Maddy, and simple math says it is correct. You said that two people should be a sufficient threat to a tank, I gave you a list of methods that would cut through a double hardened and plated maddy with its hardeners up. You can do the math and see that those examples hold up to scrutiny. Not once have you, or breakin provided any sort of data, nor do either of you attempt to refute any of my statement with some basic math to show why they are wrong. You won't even answer a simple question like how many seconds should it take a single infantry suit to destroy a hardened tank. Why not? Do you not want people to see how ridiculous your demands are for what you consider balanced? Please reference this post for maths disagreeing with your PLC+Lai Dai statement. As an additional point, assuming that the Maddy has no shields: APLC: 1690 * 0.9 (profile vs armour) * 0.6 * 0.656 = 599 Nade: 1563 * 1.2 (profile) * 0.6 * 0.656 = 739 * 3 = 2217 2217 + 599 = 2816 Assuming this takes you 0.5 seconds to accomplish (and will, in reality, take 1-2), the Madrugar (assuming 2x PRO Heavy Reps) will repair 137.5. Subtracting that from the damage we arrive at 2817-137.5=2679.5 damage taken: aka, the Madrugar survives. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:25:00 - [200] - Quote General Mosquito wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: General Mosquito wrote: Where is the data you presented? Balance boils down to Kill / Spawn Efficiency. I've assumed (and I've said as much) that Madrugar Kill / Spawn Efficiency is disproportionately high. If the data isn't on my side, then my balance complaints are baseless and I'll stand corrected. If the data is on my side, however, then your excuses and what ifs -- while colorful and entertaining -- will fall on deaf ears while Rattati swings that hammer. I think it more probable than not kill/spawn efficiency data is on my side. I imagine you do as well. If you didn't, why would you be so frothy? You can't call your assumptions data. So I ask again, where is your data? Can you construct a gv.0 fit that can survive two proto AV for 36 seconds? WIll you tell the audience how long you think it should take for an AV troop to kill a tank with its hardeners up? You will do neither of those things, instead you will appeal to "data" that you don't have, and can at best make a half assed guess at, and given how biased you are against vehicles(as you clearly stated), you can't be called a trusted source can you? Love the appeal to authority in there as well, you are just a fallacious machine. I don't get to play with data. What I get is what I observe in game. When my observations resonate with Forum complaints, I gain confidence in my position. When my observations form a distinctive pattern over time, I gain confidence in my position. And when I'm told[i] And when I'm told "everything is fine" by a room full of tankers, well, I gain mucho confidence in my position. by a room full of tankers, well, I gain mucho confidence in my position. The data is what it is. All we can do is observe and hypothesize. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)

Devadander Woodgrain Atari 365	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:26:00 - [201] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: General Mosquito wrote: I say three lai dais and a PLC round will destroy a dual rep Maddy, and simple math says it is correct. You said that two people should be a sufficient threat to a tank, I gave you a list of methods that would cut through a double hardened and plated maddy with its hardeners up. You can do the math and see that those examples hold up to scrutiny. Not once have you, or breakin provided any sort of data, nor do either of you attempt to refute any of my statement with some basic math to show why they are wrong. You won't even answer a simple question like how many seconds should it take a single infantry suit to destroy a hardened tank. Why not? Do you not want people to see how ridiculous your demands are for what you consider balanced? Please reference this post for maths disagreeing with your PLC+Lai Dai statement. As an additional point, assuming that the Maddy has no shields: APLC: 1690 * 0.9 (profile vs armour) * 0.6 * 0.656 = 599 Nade: 1563 * 1.2 (profile) * 0.6 * 0.656 = 739 * 3 = 2217 2217 + 599 = 2816 Assuming this takes you 0.5 seconds to accomplish (and will, in reality, take 1-2), the Madrugar (assuming 2x PRO Heavy Reps) will repair 137.5. Subtracting that from the damage we arrive at 2817-137.5=2679.5 damage taken: aka, the Madrugar survives. I already pointed out that the PLC is a crap weapon vs any HAV. Idc about the math, I know firsthand. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 20	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:28:00 - [202] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: And when I'm told "everything is fine" by a room full of tankers, well, I gain mucho confidence in my position. I think that most tankers are pretty much of the opinion the current status quo is beyond broken and not a particularly good system. Can you two just quit bickering on a subject neither of you are able to or willing to change your own or your opponents opinions. Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 365	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:31:00 - [203] - Quote I miss my chainlogi with 3 rof mods and a cooler. It would eat these gv0 alive. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:33:00 - [204] - Quote Devadander wrote: I already pointed out that the PLC is a crap weapon vs any HAV. Idc about the math, I know firsthand. I...don't care. This was in no way a response to your posts and is, in fact, a response to General Mosquito's specific question for Adipem Nothi, asking him if one APLC and 3x Lai Dai Packed AV Grenades would kill a double Hardened/double Repped Madrugar. He was stating that the maths supports his claim that it does. I have provided maths that shows otherwise. That is all. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
General Mosquito Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 126	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:42:00 - [205] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: General Mosquito wrote: I say three lai dais and a PLC round will destroy a dual rep Maddy, and simple math says it is correct. You said that two people should be a sufficient threat to a tank, I gave you a list of methods that would cut through a double hardened and plated maddy with its hardeners up. You can do the math and see that those examples hold up to scrutiny. Not once have you, or breakin provided any sort of data, nor do either of you attempt to refute any of my statement with some basic math to show why they are wrong. You won't even answer a simple question like how many seconds should it take a single infantry suit to destroy a hardened tank. Why not? Do you not want people to see how ridiculous your demands are for what you consider balanced? Please reference this post for maths disagreeing with your PLC+Lai Dai statement. As an additional point, assuming that the Maddy has no shields: APLC: 1690 * 0.9 (profile vs armour) * 0.6 * 0.656 = 599 Nade: 1563 * 1.2 (profile) * 0.6 * 0.656 = 739 * 3 = 2217 2217 + 599 = 2816 Assuming this takes you 0.5 seconds to accomplish (and will, in reality, take 1-2), the Madrugar (assuming 2x PRO Heavy Reps) will repair 137.5. Subtracting that from the damage we arrive at 2817-137.5=2679.5 damage taken: aka, the Madrugar survives. Sorry I missed your earlier post, but thank you for reposting it. Clearly, I was wrong about it being an absolute. Given the margin, prof wouldn't even push it over. Prof and a single damage mod would, although that would be too much leeway for my original point. Thank you for the correction. General Butt Naked - Biomassed The Attorney General - Biomassed when unbanned Only 9 more alts to go.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:45:00 - [206] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: If a veteran with a prototype amarr assault ran with a scrambler rifle against a bunch of academy bros, obviously his kill/spawn is going to skew results. The larger the dataset, the less anomalies like this will have the potential to "skew" it. Madrugars have been OP for a long time now, and there certainly are no shortage of them in game. I imagine Rattati has quite the robust sample to evaluate. Again, how can you 100% be certain that they are, without a shadow of a doubt, the problem here? Dust 514 players have a repitoire for not wanting to run AV, even when they're getting hammered by Tanks, because it is a very high-risky playstyle and there have -always- been faults in the AV vs Vehicle logic; that it should take a team of people [AV] to deal with one person [a tank]. But, if it was on a one-to-one basis, vehicle users would immediately say that HAVs are a coffin. If it were up to me I'd have the damn hardeners built into the HAVs, be stupid powerful, but paper-thin without the hardener on, forcing Tankers into attacks of opportunity (which was the original intent behind Hardeners if anyone remembers). Trouble is that you can force a tank to disengage when his hardeners turn off but the chances of you killing them are sometimes very low because HAVs are simply faster than infantry. So, the AV vs HAV situation aside, instead of looking at how we can nerf Madrugars what can we do to bring the Gunnlogi up? I think that is where we should start, and if Madrugars and Gunnlogis are on par with one another but excessively over-powering infantry than we can bring them BOTH back down a bit. Let's explore our options before we immediately jump to castrating Madrugars. Volunteer For The PSD! Design A SKIN 2
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 11	Posted - 2015.07.18 00:58:00 - [207] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: If a veteran with a prototype amarr assault ran with a scrambler rifle against a bunch of academy bros, obviously his kill/spawn is going to skew results. The larger the dataset, the less anomalies like this will have the potential to "skew" it. Madrugars have been OP for a long time now, and there certainly are no shortage of them in game. I imagine Rattati has quite the robust sample to evaluate. Again, how can you 100% be certain that they are, without a shadow of a doubt, the problem here? Dust 514 players have a repitoire for not wanting to run AV, even when they're getting hammered by Tanks, because it is a very high-risky playstyle and there have -always- been faults in the AV vs Vehicle logic; that it should take a team of people [AV] to deal with one person [a tank]. But, if it was on a one-to-one basis, vehicle users would immediately say that HAVs are a coffin. If it were up to me I'd have the damn hardeners built into the HAVs, be stupid powerful, but paper-thin without the hardener on, forcing Tankers into attacks of opportunity (which was the original intent behind Hardeners if anyone remembers). Trouble is that you can force a tank to disengage when his hardeners turn off but the chances of you killing them are sometimes very low because HAVs are simply faster than infantry. So, the AV vs HAV situation aside, instead of looking at how we can nerf Madrugars what can we do to bring the Gunnlogi up? I think that is where we should start, and if Madrugars and Gunnlogis are on par with one another but excessively over-powering infantry than we can bring them BOTH back down a bit. Let's explore our options before we immediately jump to castrating Madrugars. I'm not 100% certain that Madrugars are overpowered, but I do think it more probable than not. If performance data says they are in fact OP, then I say we do something about rather than make excuses for it. What's been proposed is that we limit hardeners to 1 per loadout. Is it your opinion that such a change would "castrate Madrugars"? If so, why? And what alternative adjustment would you propose? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 11	Posted - 2015.07.18 01:06:00 - [208] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: If a veteran with a prototype amarr assault ran with a scrambler rifle against a bunch of academy bros, obviously his kill/spawn is going to skew results. The larger the dataset, the less anomalies like this will have the potential to "skew" it. Madrugars have been OP for a long time now, and there certainly are no shortage of them in game. I imagine Rattati has quite the robust sample to evaluate. Again, how can you 100% be certain that they are, without a shadow of a doubt, the problem here? Dust 514 players have a repitoire for not wanting to run AV, even when they're getting hammered by Tanks, because it is a very high-risky playstyle and there have -always- been faults in the AV vs Vehicle logic; that it should take a team of people [AV] to deal with one person [a tank]. But, if it was on a one-to-one basis, vehicle users would immediately say that HAVs are a coffin. If it were up to me I'd have the damn hardeners built into the HAVs, be stupid powerful, but paper-thin without the hardener on, forcing Tankers into attacks of opportunity (which was the original intent behind Hardeners if anyone remembers). Trouble is that you can force a tank to disengage when his hardeners turn off but the chances of you killing them are sometimes very low because HAVs are simply faster than infantry. So, the AV vs HAV situation aside, instead of looking at how we can nerf Madrugars what can we do to bring the Gunnlogi up? I think that is where we should start, and if Madrugars and Gunnlogis are on par with one another but excessively over-powering infantry than we can bring them BOTH back down a bit. Let's explore our options before we immediately jump to castrating Madrugars. I'm not 100% certain that Madrugars are overpowered, but I do think it more probable than not. If performance data says they are in fact OP, then I say we do something about rather than make excuses for it. What's been proposed is that we limit hardeners to 1 per loadout. Is it your opinion that such a change would "castrate Madrugars"? If so, why? And what alternative adjustment would you propose? Armor Hardeners are, to my knowledge, more powerful innately than shield hardeners and shields are harmed by the inadequacies and technicalities of shield boosters being difficult and unreliable. If we limited hardeners to one per, would that really solve anything or would it just fundamentally nerf -both- HAVs while not addressing the core problem? Would it be limiting player choice to address a problem that could have been addressed differently from the start? I don't run vehicles. I don't know these issues first hand, but I know the complaints of HAV users rather intimately given that I run with them frequently in NF. Railguns ghost firing being the reason that Missiles are preferred (reliability), Shield Boosters being unreliable to begin with, railguns simply not having enough damage to punch through a hardener+repairer combo. If we looked at anything, I'd look at shields being addressed, starting with technical issues. Then look at bringing them up in their own unique way so that they're viable rather than homogenizing hardeners. If that doesn't work, instead of hitting the hardeners, make Armor Repairers active rather than passive as it offers nothing to the opportunistic playstyle and is just a bonus for fitting it. You should have to make the choice between using your repairers to last longer in a fight or using them to recover post-fight, IMO (a little like Boosters only without the crippling issue of the boosters not working under fire xD) Just my thoughts. Like I said, I don't run vehicles though, so take it as a grain of salt. Volunteer For The PSD! Design A SKIN 2
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 365	Posted - 2015.07.18 01:07:00 - [209] - Quote A one hardener limit would doom shield HAV. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 1	Posted - 2015.07.18 01:08:00 - [210] - Quote General Mosquito wrote: Sorry I missed your earlier post, but thank you for reposting it. Clearly, I was wrong about it being an absolute. Given the margin, prof wouldn't even push it over. Prof and a single damage mod would, although that would be too much leeway for my original point. Thank you for the correction. Mathematically, maybe. At the same time this is assuming an absolutely perfect ambush for the AVer. Not only does throw range on the AV grenades matter immensely, but Packed AV grenades have a far smaller seek radius and what that means is that a Maddy moving even slowly will be able to accelerate/stop altogether to avoid one or more grenades. While mathematically the numbers might support the AVer (I doubt it, actually, but would need to run the numbers further) the typical battlefield situation supports the notion that the HAV will survive, due to the actual mobility of it. With two damage mods, vs shields, the AVer will still not kill the Madrugar. 16901.11.151.07(.07.86+1)1.05 (Warbarge) = 2547 - 1200 Shields = 1347/1.15/1.1*0.9= 378; this is 76 more damage, even including Level 5 Warbarge (not previously included.) 2516 (previous damage to armour) + 76 = 2592 damage to armour is still insufficient to kill the Madrugar. Applying the Warbarge bonus to the 'No Shields' situation I ran gives an armour damage total of 2930: sufficient to kill the Madrugar assuming a 0.5s of repair (137.5; 2792.5) but insufficient if the Madrugar has a full 1.0s of repair (275; 2655.) This is still assuming that the Madrugar is entirely immobile/the AVer is able to land all three grenades without the Madrugar moving enough (which is perfectly possible with a Fuel Injector.) Essentially, the math is extremely close to killing the Madrugar for a perfect ambush, but any kind of imperfection sees the Maddy survive. Similarly, however, if the Maddy hasn't activated its hardeners then it is definitely dead. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.



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