To be fair, tanks are easy to kill if you make a plan to kill it.

stop complaining get in a tank and have an amazing dog fight, pick up a maddie with a rail and blow some sh*t up. stop trying to Nerf something which isn't OP. if you want to nerf something look at the weapons on your AV fit and try to tell me they are not overpowered

Yes, and a single hardened tank explodes under the barrage you described in the OP.

Either that or he engages his second hardener and gives you a window where he will be without any hardeners and be an easy kill.

AKA get good.

Mouthbreathers shouldn't be influential to balance calls.

I'm saying his team was a bunch of pubstars who have no concept of teamwork or strategy, and that is why they lost.

They didn't focus fire on anything. No debate about that.

Any time 3 AV focus their fire on a tank, it dies. That is not up for debate, and people who say otherwise have never tanked in a PC. Most of the time 2 will do, but 3 will always do it.

That isn't some long drawn out fight either, its 9 Lai dais and good night. Done in literally less than 3 seconds, no amount of hardeners will stop it.

Every large socket has more than a half dozen spots where infantry can huck grenades from cover. Combined with places tanks MUST travel through to impact the battle in the large sockets, and tank control is trivial for a team in PC.

You don't know anything about PC tanking.

If you can't kill an unhardened maddy in the thirty seconds that his hardeners are offline, then you shouldn't be playing competitive games.

Considering that the time for a scout suit to deliver 3 lai dais and a PLC shot is less than 5 seconds, there is plenty of time to get your kill on.

Of course if you were smart, when the tank showed up, you would just go and put proxies down on his retreat route, and let him have nothing to shoot at.

But if you were smart we wouldn't be having this conversation.

And tanks are OP?

The AV guys you're going to bat foe always fail to be truthful about the ingagement. A tanker can feel the difference between pro and cbr7?! Minmandos have 3 high slots, and are still complaining about tanks? I honestly feel sorry for dropship pilots smh?!

Don't let lazy AV lie to you! I don't expect to whip out my 'quafe' plc, and kill multiple tanks?! It's a deterrent, nothing more. This games TTK is far too fast anyway. Why does everyone want insta-gank on everything?

One dropsuit can tank out a tank.

They can use any combo of proxies, AV nades, PLC, Swarms.

They can kill it through its hardeners.

If they are smart, they can be effectively immune to the tank responding other than running away at top speed taking blaster pot shots as they gtfo.

If they are really smart, the tank doesn't even know exactly they just evaporated, but they think they must have run into mulitple AV.

So where is balanced to you? If one suit can eliminate any tank, how is that unfair? Just because you can't kill tanks because you lack the capacity doesn't mean it isn't done regularly by people who are capable of tying their own shoes instead of having mommy velcro you up and cinching down your chin strap before you walk to the bus stop.

You have many options as an AV player with which to either destroy or nullify tanks, and yet you cry as if you are helpless. So what about tanks makes them so "impossible" for you to kill?

Simple question,

can 3 lai dais and a PLC shot take out a dual rep dual hardener madrugar with its hardeners up?

Yes or no?

Either the grenades and a plc shot can or cannot kill the tank described. From there we can further the discussion, but not until you start to acknowledge some facts.

Stop avoiding the question.

That you refuse to answer a simple question belies your intent. Are you really trying to become a CPM and you can't even handle a simple question without resorting hypotheticals?

Do three lai dais and a PLC round destroy an dual rep Madrugar with its hardeners up?

A tank can be killed by a single dropsuit.

The rest of your argument is invalid.

I'm still reading the thread but on page 2 I got to this post and I just had to say something....Did you literally just claim that you don't need Proto AV to threaten a 1.3 million Isk tank?.....

Wow...

*Goes back to thread*

PS. Kaiser your idea is on point and I love it and you need to be CPM next year...

I can't even read the rest. You can get bent dooder.

Idk who beat you over the head with a stupid stick, but I'm here to put you out of your misery.

The simple fact that you are trying to kill Maddie's with anything but a forge/missile boat shows your ignorance.

Now your cries for nerf have awakened the beast.

I can survive your onslaught in my std gunnlogi, quafe even.

Your ignorant suggestions for vehicle rework tells me you have never once grown a pair and called your own tank.

So many ways to kill a tanker, but you do not deserve this knowledge. Even if you had it you would fail.

Your T count is too low to come at me bro. GOML

we need to look at other options (limit one hardener per vehicle, make armor reps active, etc.) to fix the tank issue.

I'd like to see you tank. Would make me laugh my ass off as you get evaporated.

I'll give you the finest fit tanks, but since they are so strong, you break 'em you bought em.

I'd put good money on you going negative and losing 5 million ISK a game.

I kill plenty with my sica rail..you are a dumb av player..don't attack when his Hardner is on wait for the right moment and use the element of surprise..you really think a fit that takes maybe 5-6m and costs 200k ISK should insta gank a tank that takes 40-60m sp and costs 1.2-2m ISK? Smart players surprise the tank, most just use tactics to suppress tanks then QQ about not being able to kill one.

I run a mlt sica rail, 2 hardners and a rep for those that do get into my armor..I tend to be lazy when in tank =ƒÿü
3 av nades will blow up my tank, it happens a lot

You are, in fact, doing it wrong.

Tanks will never be balanced between themselves, because the shield tank hull is crap, and even though you can buff around some of its problems, it biggest alleged role is nullified by the fact that it can't depress the gun, and so can't properly fight from high ground, and with a slower top speed and slower practical acceleration it can't actually fight from range either.

FG most effective AV? I smell a roof topper. Is that what this is really about, CCP not letting you kill vehicles from rooftops with no risk to yourself?

Missile Maddy beats blaster maddy, tell CCP to buff shield tanks if you want to see them on the field.

Buff shield tanks wouldn't make them OP because maddies are not OP.

Try and keep up.

I'm just toying with you at this point.

Kill/Spawn Efficiency is what it is, and if hardened maddies are OP they're OP. Colorful excuses and name calling won't affect efficiency data, though both do make the process of problem solving much more entertaining.

... the debate is long over, and you lost.

... so either tanks need to be nerfed, av needs a buff, or the number of vehicles allowed in each match should be severely reduced.

Where is the data you presented?

What am I missing?

If a veteran with a prototype amarr assault ran with a scrambler rifle against a bunch of academy bros, obviously his kill/spawn is going to skew results.

You can't call your assumptions data.

So I ask again, where is your data?

Can you construct a gv.0 fit that can survive two proto AV for 36 seconds?

WIll you tell the audience how long you think it should take for an AV troop to kill a tank with its hardeners up?

You will do neither of those things, instead you will appeal to "data" that you don't have, and can at best make a half assed guess at, and given how biased you are against vehicles(as you clearly stated), you can't be called a trusted source can you? Love the appeal to authority in there as well, you are just a fallacious machine.

Again, how can you 100% be certain that they are, without a shadow of a doubt, the problem here? Dust 514 players have a repitoire for not wanting to run AV, even when they're getting hammered by Tanks, because it is a very high-risky playstyle and there have -always- been faults in the AV vs Vehicle logic; that it should take a team of people [AV] to deal with one person [a tank].

But, if it was on a one-to-one basis, vehicle users would immediately say that HAVs are a coffin. If it were up to me I'd have the damn hardeners built into the HAVs, be stupid powerful, but paper-thin without the hardener on, forcing Tankers into attacks of opportunity (which was the original intent behind Hardeners if anyone remembers). Trouble is that you can force a tank to disengage when his hardeners turn off but the chances of you killing them are sometimes very low because HAVs are simply faster than infantry.

So, the AV vs HAV situation aside, instead of looking at how we can nerf Madrugars what can we do to bring the Gunnlogi up? I think that is where we should start, and if Madrugars and Gunnlogis are on par with one another but excessively over-powering infantry than we can bring them BOTH back down a bit.

Let's explore our options before we immediately jump to castrating Madrugars.

A one hardener limit would doom shield HAV.

On the blaster note, I think CCP should just make them AI.

Do you know what a compressed blaster is?

You wish ... we had ... larger balls ?