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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 9634	Posted - 2015.05.12 19:46:00 - [61] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: OMFG this is the funniest thread I've read lately. People are crying about caldari suits being UP, when at the proto level, they have the best KD We know that snipers occupy an uniquely high KDR bracket and that snipers favor Caldari suits. Is it not reasonable to assume that these Caldari KDR statistics are being inflated by outliers? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 24004	Posted - 2015.05.12 20:34:00 - [62] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: OMFG this is the funniest thread I've read lately. People are crying about caldari suits being UP, when at the proto level, they have the best KD We know that snipers occupy an uniquely high KDR bracket and that snipers favor Caldari suits. Is it not reasonable to assume that these Caldari KDR statistics are being inflated by outliers? For a few samples, specifically the Calmando, I completely agree. In others, though? The Callogi? Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu Gallente Guide
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3102	Posted - 2015.05.12 21:14:00 - [63] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: OMFG this is the funniest thread I've read lately. People are crying about caldari suits being UP, when at the proto level, they have the best KD We know that snipers occupy an uniquely high KDR bracket and that snipers favor Caldari suits. Is it not reasonable to assume that these Caldari KDR statistics are being inflated by outliers? For a few samples, specifically the Calmando, I completely agree. In others, though? The Callogi? More time spent shooting & less time spent repping because of rep hives. Also popular with myo builds for a bit. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Tweaksz THE SMOKIN GUNZ Dark Taboo 219	Posted - 2015.05.12 21:39:00 - [64] - Quote Lol looks like shields aren't as UP as the shield enthusiasts would have you believe. Pill Popping Madness!
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 9636	Posted - 2015.05.12 21:50:00 - [65] - Quote Arkena Wyrnspire wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: OMFG this is the funniest thread I've read lately. People are crying about caldari suits being UP, when at the proto level, they have the best KD We know that snipers occupy an uniquely high KDR bracket and that snipers favor Caldari suits. Is it not reasonable to assume that these Caldari KDR statistics are being inflated by outliers? For a few samples, specifically the Calmando, I completely agree. In others, though? The Callogi? No idea what's up the CalLogi; if pressed to guess, I'd say something to do with myofibs. Either way, if this were my dataset to manipulate, I'd remove from it kills from sniper rifles. Why let an easily removed outlier affect interpretation? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Imp Smash Molon Labe. RUST415 834	Posted - 2015.05.12 22:53:00 - [66] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: Kain Spero wrote: When I look at these statistics to me it shows the increasing need for tieracide or at least a soft tieracide like flattening slot progression. The disparity between basic, advanced, and proto tier suits seems far too great. Not at all. - New players will run Standard suits for a long time. By the time they get into Advanced and Proto suits they have more experience. - People who are getting stomped often run cheaper suits. - People don't run expensive suits unless they can minimize their deaths. Otherwise it is too expensive. So for the most part, only good players run expensive suits regularly, and everyone else runs less expensive suits. Therefor the stats of the Standard suits is primarily a representation of unskilled players, while the stats of the Proto suits represents primarily the skilled players. It is a reflection of the cost of the suit more than the quality. That said, I do support tieracide. That's pretty good rationale. Very logical. I wouldn't be surprised if this was largely true

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 22412	Posted - 2015.05.13 00:30:00 - [67] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: 1. No matter how many were sold if its was OP as people claim it should have the highest KD. It isn't. 2. Also, we should absolutley ignore PC data when balancing for everyone ... PC is the worst metric to go by. Balance for that and break the game for everyone. Point 1. That isn't necessarily true. If this report were restricted it to the top X% of performers, then you would be more correct. We're looking at averages here, not distributions. To illustrate (or at least attempt to ): Adipem Nothi wrote: Assumption Right now, 2000 vets are running Prototype Assaults. 500 are running Assault gk.0. 1,500 are running Assault mk.0. Of the 500 running Assault gk.0, 250 are fair shooters and 250 are good shooters. Of the 500 running Assault mk.0, 500 are bad, 500 are fair and 500 are good. Count - Skill - KDR 500 - Bad - 2.0 500 - Fair - 3.0 500 - Good - 5.0 Average mk.0 KDR ~ 3.3 Count - Skill - KDR 0 - Bad - N/A 250 - Fair - 2.5 250 - Good - 4.1 Average gk.0 KDR ~ 3.3 Question If this scenario were true, could we cite it as indication that Assault gk.0 and Assault mk.0 are perfectly in balance? Point 2. I'm suggesting we check our expectations against all available datasources before ruling whether or not something is balanced; that's quite different than balancing for PC. If our expectation is that MN Assaults are fine but PC usage rates, PC efficiency rates, forum complaints and pub usage rates all point to the contrary, would it not be prudent to at least challenge our expectation? To be honest, this is of course the right thing to do, just like with weapons, KDR plus use and actual effectiveness. I am trying to find the right combination of a key performance indicator (kpi) that just tells us whether or not something is relatively overpowered. If I told you all these are the same, except 50% kills are performed by Minsaults, we would have a problem. Just like with the Rail Rifle before. But if the Kills are split within the Assault Role fairly equally, and the KDR is fairly equal, then I would be less concerned. That's why I am running an experiment whether the right formula is K/S*relativeKill% for weapons. That quickly identifies weapons that kill a lot and have a high KDR, and isolates cases where KDR is good, but Kills are low, and thirdly, low KDR, low Kill weapons stand out like a sore thumb. "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Imp Smash Molon Labe. RUST415 834	Posted - 2015.05.13 00:41:00 - [68] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: To be honest, this is of course the right thing to do, just like with weapons, KDR plus use and actual effectiveness. I am trying to find the right combination of a key performance indicator (kpi) that just tells us whether or not something is relatively overpowered. If I told you all these are the same, except 50% kills are performed by Minsaults, we would have a problem. Just like with the Rail Rifle before. But if the Kills are split within the Assault Role fairly equally, and the KDR is fairly equal, then I would be less concerned. That's why I am running an experiment whether the right formula is K/S*relativeKill% for weapons. That quickly identifies weapons that kill a lot and have a high KDR, and isolates cases where KDR is good, but Kills are low, and thirdly, low KDR, low Kill weapons stand out like a sore thumb. What about 2 separate statistics for comparison by a linking 3rd statistic? 1.The first is what you put in the original post -- KDR per suit. (with the aforementioned total kills listed as well) 2. KDR per gun 3. Most commonly used gun per suit (when spawned) It isn't comprehensive data by any means, but it would specifically highlight outliers and give us a pretty solid idea of what type of gameplay people are using when playing each suit. It would also be fairly simple and easy to digest. It wouldn't be hard to figure out a formula from there I'd reckon.
Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3051	Posted - 2015.05.13 01:12:00 - [69] - Quote Here's a question for Rattati: we see that MinAssault KDR is close to the same as the other Assault suits. Now how about this data: what did those MinAssaults kill? Which suits were they best at killing, and which suits killed MinAssault the most? We can't look at KDR of suits and declare balance. If the majority (save some outliers) are using one particular suit, then it's logical for it to have a fairly normal KDR: not only does it get most of the kills (since the majority are using it), but it would logically also do most of the dying (since the majority of players are using it.) Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
7th Son 7 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 1033	Posted - 2015.05.13 01:14:00 - [70] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Cal Logi is indeed interesting, and I would recommend Rattati to look at why its K/DR is what it is. Strafe combined with a powerful ranged weopon w/good accuracy is why. A Cal-Logi can ARR from the hip like a dream combined with excellent movement it's great. I have good exp with the Cal-Logi. Only your complete and total awareness is needed, nothing else will do. ----- OSHO

Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 154	Posted - 2015.05.13 01:43:00 - [71] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Interesting. For all the Caldari assaults constantly whining about their poor shields, Caldari assault is doing great compared to other assaults. And Minmatar assault, which is supposed to be the FOTM according to the forums doesn't seem nearly as OP as people claim. I would love to see the KDR chart for the weapons also. why do you people not realize that the reason caldari seem to have inflated kd is not because they are at a good place but because of the amount of players that use them for sniping, making those numbers inflate
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 606	Posted - 2015.05.13 02:30:00 - [72] - Quote Sicerly Yaw wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Interesting. For all the Caldari assaults constantly whining about their poor shields, Caldari assault is doing great compared to other assaults. And Minmatar assault, which is supposed to be the FOTM according to the forums doesn't seem nearly as OP as people claim. I would love to see the KDR chart for the weapons also. why do you people not realize that the reason caldari seem to have inflated kd is not because they are at a good place but because of the amount of players that use them for sniping, making those numbers inflate Exactly, how many cal logis do you actually see on the field? They're used for (redline) sniping due to the amount of high slots and CPU/PG ADS Ramming Revenge! Plasma Cannon Rampage
Boot Booter Titans of Phoenix RUST415 1307	Posted - 2015.05.13 02:33:00 - [73] - Quote Lol and people laughed at me when I said the assaults were more or less balanced. Well... Haha I told you so. Interesting data, tough to say how usual playstyles affect the data (although a clear example is the calmando sniper style). Edit: Hey Rat could you provide the standard deviation or variance for each category as well.. Just curious.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 9646	Posted - 2015.05.13 03:17:00 - [74] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Lol and people laughed at me when I said the assaults were more or less balanced. More or less balanced against what? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
bogeyman m Corrosive Synergy Rise Of Legion. 461	Posted - 2015.05.13 03:27:00 - [75] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Min Logi has the lowest KDR of all suits in the game. Ya... I have a lot to do with that... Sorry gang. Professional Logibro and avid AVer -- I support my team for the ISK, but I blow up vehicles for the LOLz.
nelo kazuma THE LAST H0PE. RUST415 171	Posted - 2015.05.13 06:15:00 - [76] - Quote I dont believe the cal section of this chart first of all cal suits of any varient have the lowest use in the dust community (except scout) so if their is one cal for every 3 gal min or amar of course our numbers might be off. second kdr could imply sniping e.c.t Id like to see total amount of players for each race who played during this period of chart then id take it seriously allot of people who still run caldari are the most expierenced players whove learned how to deal with cals low survivabilty.
Starlight Burner Arrary of Clusters 255	Posted - 2015.05.13 07:02:00 - [77] - Quote I don't believe these statistics. CEO of Arrary of Clusters, a close relations corporation Caldari Factional Warfare, enlist today! Thank you for DUST
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 840	Posted - 2015.05.13 08:34:00 - [78] - Quote nelo kazuma wrote: I dont believe the cal section of this chart first of all cal suits of any varient have the lowest use in the dust community (except scout) so if their is one cal for every 3 gal min or amar of course our numbers might be off. second kdr could imply sniping e.c.t Id like to see total amount of players for each race who played during this period of chart then id take it seriously allot of people who still run caldari are the most expierenced players whove learned how to deal with cals low survivabilty. Loads of people use caldari suits.
nelo kazuma THE LAST H0PE. RUST415 172	Posted - 2015.05.13 08:53:00 - [79] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: nelo kazuma wrote: I dont believe the cal section of this chart first of all cal suits of any varient have the lowest use in the dust community (except scout) so if their is one cal for every 3 gal min or amar of course our numbers might be off. second kdr could imply sniping e.c.t Id like to see total amount of players for each race who played during this period of chart then id take it seriously allot of people who still run caldari are the most expierenced players whove learned how to deal with cals low survivabilty. Loads of people use caldari suits. Im not saying their arent cal users but for evry battle u see one cal user you see 2 of every other race.(just example not literal). But pretty close in my opinion
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1073	Posted - 2015.05.13 09:11:00 - [80] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: 1. No matter how many were sold if its was OP as people claim it should have the highest KD. It isn't. 2. Also, we should absolutley ignore PC data when balancing for everyone ... PC is the worst metric to go by. Balance for that and break the game for everyone. Point 1. That isn't necessarily true. If this report were restricted it to the top X% of performers, then you would be more correct. We're looking at averages here, not distributions. To illustrate (or at least attempt to ): Adipem Nothi wrote: Assumption Right now, 2000 vets are running Prototype Assaults. 500 are running Assault gk.0. 1,500 are running Assault mk.0. Of the 500 running Assault gk.0, 250 are fair shooters and 250 are good shooters. Of the 500 running Assault mk.0, 500 are bad, 500 are fair and 500 are good. Count - Skill - KDR 500 - Bad - 2.0 500 - Fair - 3.0 500 - Good - 5.0 Average mk.0 KDR ~ 3.3 Count - Skill - KDR 0 - Bad - N/A 250 - Fair - 2.5 250 - Good - 4.1 Average gk.0 KDR ~ 3.3 Question If this scenario were true, could we cite it as indication that Assault gk.0 and Assault mk.0 are perfectly in balance? Point 2. I'm suggesting we check our expectations against all available datasources before ruling whether or not something is balanced; that's quite different than balancing for PC. If our expectation is that MN Assaults are fine but PC usage rates, PC efficiency rates, forum complaints and pub usage rates all point to the contrary, would it not be prudent to at least challenge our expectation? To be honest, this is of course the right thing to do, just like with weapons, KDR plus use and actual effectiveness. I am trying to find the right combination of a key performance indicator (kpi) that just tells us whether or not something is relatively overpowered. If I told you all these are the same, except 50% kills are performed by Minsaults, we would have a problem. Just like with the Rail Rifle before. But if the Kills are split within the Assault Role fairly equally, and the KDR is fairly equal, then I would be less concerned. That's why I am running an experiment whether the right formula is K/S*relativeKill% for weapons. That quickly identifies weapons that kill a lot and have a high KDR, and isolates cases where KDR is good, but Kills are low, and thirdly, low KDR, low Kill weapons stand out like a sore thumb. I agree that KDR isn't the sole metric to go by. At the same time i'm seeing a lot of people on these forums rejecting this data because of thier own personal opions, more or less along the lines of 'it killed me it must be OP', or 'its popular it must be OP'. All in all its looking at the data backward. Instead of 'here's the data what is OP and what isnt' we have 'the Minmatar Assault is OP! Where is the data to justify this? But- i've been complaining how could i have been wrong and the data be right? Must find another source' hence my 'SUCK IT NERDS' comment. Because there are few trhings i hate more than the second line of reasoning. Screw the emotional state of the forums and screw PC, that is no way to balance dust at all. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.

STYLIE77 KILL-EM-QUICK Rise Of Legion. 679	Posted - 2015.05.13 11:22:00 - [81] - Quote Starlight Burner wrote: I don't believe these statistics. Agreed. Cal Scout, Min Assault, Cal Assault When they are doing the strafing trick to break up hit detection many of them are just invincible. Wait until Ratatti see's the KDR's of the Min Assault / Shotguns for the past 30 days ... lol http://caughtyouflinching.ytmnd.com/
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1053	Posted - 2015.05.13 11:52:00 - [82] - Quote STYLIE77 wrote: Starlight Burner wrote: I don't believe these statistics. Agreed. Cal Scout, Min Assault, Cal Assault When they are doing the strafing trick to break up hit detection many of them are just invincible. Wait until Ratatti see's the KDR's of the Min Assault / Shotguns for the past 30 days ... lol KDR is higher for caldari for the same reason KDR is higher for snipers.
dombolus KAPPA.514 Imperium Eden 5	Posted - 2015.05.13 12:18:00 - [83] - Quote I know why proto cal logi's have a ridiculously high k/d... NELO KAZUMA
Mejt0 Dead Man's Game 1387	Posted - 2015.05.13 12:20:00 - [84] - Quote This data is inaccurate sadly. There's no info of how many suits were used. For example. Sure caldari assault has 3.5+ kdr here but we don't know how many suits were used. Probably not much, that's why the score is at equal level as of the rest. Because there's way more amarr, gal and min assaults out there and thier KDR is divided by higher number. Caldari Loyalist thecreaturehub fan
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 9648	Posted - 2015.05.13 12:32:00 - [85] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: I agree that KDR isn't the sole metric to go by. At the same time i'm seeing a lot of people on these forums rejecting this data because of thier own personal opions, more or less along the lines of 'it killed me it must be OP', or 'its popular it must be OP'. All in all its looking at the data backward. Instead of 'here's the data what is OP and what isnt' we have 'the Minmatar Assault is OP! Where is the data to justify this? But- i've been complaining how could i have been wrong and the data be right? Must find another source' hence my 'SUCK IT NERDS' comment. Because there are few trhings i hate more than the second line of reasoning. Screw the emotional state of the forums and screw PC, that is no way to balance dust at all. CCP Rattati writes: Here's some data. Study, comment, enjoy. Others write: Observations on population makeup, averages vs distributions, effects of outliers, etc. Tesfa Alem writes: SUCK IT NERDS! What Tesfa really wants is for others to learn to be logical and reasonable, just like him. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
VALCORE72 Vengeance Unbound RUST415 307	Posted - 2015.05.13 18:38:00 - [86] - Quote does this mean the rail rifle will be toned down slightly lol im losen fights at close range with my ar that i shouldn't .
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3109	Posted - 2015.05.13 19:33:00 - [87] - Quote VALCORE72 wrote: does this mean the rail rifle will be toned down slightly lol im losen fights at close range with my ar that i shouldn't . You're not, nor should you ever be guaranteed to win a fight at close range. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1075	Posted - 2015.05.13 21:43:00 - [88] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: What Tesfa really wants is for others to learn to be logical and reasonable, just like him. Yay more me. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK Rise Of Legion. 3497	Posted - 2015.05.13 23:16:00 - [89] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Calassaults have the most high slots for sniper ririfle damage mods plus an extender or recharger. You can get higher damage values than a calmando and be more mobile. Most calassaults die like chumps in rifle fights. It would be interesting to see the same data set with sniper kills removed from that..... Vitantur Nothus wrote: Why hide a solution under frothy pile of derpa? SCV Ready!
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1055	Posted - 2015.05.13 23:45:00 - [90] - Quote CommanderBolt wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Calassaults have the most high slots for sniper ririfle damage mods plus an extender or recharger. You can get higher damage values than a calmando and be more mobile. Most calassaults die like chumps in rifle fights. It would be interesting to see the same data set with sniper kills removed from that..... Not just sniper kills but all kills over 70m.



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