So, without being able to confirm that Legion is being worked on daily, you've basically just confirmed that as far as evolution of the actual game goes...it's dead. It's nothing but bandaids from here on out. I mean we all knew this, it's just amusing to see you post it.

And obviously the game won't "die", but it sure as hell won't be going places.

Lol. Dust 514 tracks 20000+ attributes over 15000 items. Ballpark number for most MMO shooters these days are anywhere to a quater to rivaling our numbers depending on a number of things. Warframe would be up there in the numbers. Single gun there has 250 adjustable attributes and growing with every feature patch. They are probably around to 400 a gun now.

That is your conclusion if you choose to live with it. I am in no position to correct you either at this time so it's a very unfair position to assert here to which results in nothing positively worked on. I rather continue productive conversations.

Ok, but none of them is rendered/calculated real time, right? What needs to be rendered / calculated real time are those 39 items and the sockets. Another story would be if the 15000 items are considered "separate" as if they were unique items...

Ok, but none of them is rendered/calculated real time, right? What needs to be rendered / calculated real time are those 39 items and the sockets. Another story would be if the 15000 items are considered "separate" as if they were unique items...

-entire skill library
-skills attributes
-players attributes (boosters, standings, lp, isk, aur, ect ect quite a few actually, includes mail and chat channel and channel history).

Have you even tried doing the hazard math?

-32 players
-entire skill library
-skills attributes
-players attributes (boosters, standings, lp, isk, aur, ect ect quite a few actually, includes mail and chat channel and channel history)
-additional player altered actors (lets say 8 vehicles)
-small turrets on them as well so 24 totalish
-the state and condition of your guns at any given time on your current fit
-60 fits (these must be loaded into your memory so you can use them instantly when you select them)
-8 items a pop just to even things out but go as high as x12 if you want if they are going proto
-20 per module to be on the safe side
-50 per weapon (because they do things)
-1.5x more for the projectile emitters and projectile actors as well.
-MCC attributes are also accounted for.
-Hack points
-Null Launchers
-Base Turret attributes
-NPC Turret attributes
-RDV physics
just keep counting it up.

I kinda feel you for saying ps3 is old and very restricted on memory.

But... Umm... Grand Theft Auto 5? Gran Turismo 6? WipE'out HD? Battlefield? Unreal tournament 3 uses the same unreal engine but... It has so much to offer... And it runs similar engine, on same hardware it's also far older...

Those games got the same hardware to work on, so.... Something is a likkle off... seeing these games I can't really blame the console. I sound douchy but I gotta blame the programmers/developers mostly.

No offense guys, just calling it how I see it.

I'm not a computer person and you're right these games are pushing the PS3 far further than Dust BUT they come from coding teams who know the architecture and system inside out. The GT team have spent years and years and years working with the PS3 and even then you can argue they ran into similar memory limitations with GT5/6 even in offline play. Battlefield, GTA, Destiny have had large teams and multiple releases to get things right and when they didn't work they had money and people to throw at the problem too. As has been pointed out earlier they also arguably fewer stats, combinations and variations to track than Dust does too. (Hence the discussion around whether or not more and more proto in a battle causes more lag due to the greater number and variety of modules that the game is trying to track at any one time)

I'm relatively new here so don't know all the ins and outs but Dust had a troubled start, multiple development teams etc and has never really recovered from it. If it had been in the position to have been having it's core code constantly worked on and optimised since it's release then yes I'm sure it would be able to be far more impressive. You're correct it's not all down to the console per say, humanity put a man on the moon with something like 64Kbyte of memory on the lunar module, but damn was that good code.

You can see the problems of the legacy in the game with things like huge redlines and massive amounts of unusable map space every battle and as was said above things like the fact that MCC's are still considered vehicles for times when they were mobile and intended to potentially be piloted. (I'm also old enough to remember the ridiculous amounts of universal lag that trying to sail the carrier in Battlefield 1942 used to case).

It isn't ideal and it is a problem but the people currently working on the game are doing the best they can within the limitations imposed on them by numbers, knowledge and money. Rattati comes from a financial background not a dedicated cell processor game coding one for example. At present the dev team are only able to try and work around these issues rather than out and out fix them and I think they're doing a pretty good job under less than ideal circumstances. Things like SKINS are a really good example of this as they slowly try to chip away at the problems without removing versatility/features.

I'm not saying the game is perfect and that CCP haven't made mistakes, recently and historically, but the guys working on it at the moment really are trying to do the best they can for the few thousand people who still play and enjoy this game.

I kinda feel you for saying ps3 is old and very restricted on memory.

But... Umm...

Grand Theft Auto 5? (nuff said)
Gran Turismo 6? (beautiful for how old the system is)
WipE'out HD? (great graphics for how old the game is)
Battlefield? (huge multi-player)

Unreal tournament 3 uses the same unreal engine but... It has so much to offer... And it runs similar engine, on same hardware. it's also far older, and looks/plays better.

Those games got the same hardware to work on, so.... Something is a likkle off... seeing the qualities of these games I can't really blame the console. I sound douchy but I gotta blame the programmers/developers mostly.

No offense guys, just calling it how I see it.

Ahem as mentioned before

GTA 5 is not only a single player game but the order of magnitude of things tracked is immensely smaller. A gta player vs a dust 514 player is probably order of magnitude 1,000x variables apart. Leaving lots of memory able to LOD stream objects, scripts, schedules and the likes to only what the player sees and in close proxima to his location. The streaming however has issues for example. If the player moves significantly faster than the LOD can handle there is geometry that is psychically there that will not render before it is too late; This has crashed many jets during high traffic times. near bridges. The game is entirely running on a very slim number of rules as notable with the excessively large number of glitches caused by situations arising to which the set rules cannot deal with it and was found to be within acceptable vision. One doesn't need to browse far to see the excessive number of glitches. Memory management of assest is still a major issue still at times; Misplaced vehicles because the game forgets where objects; failure to render completely; ghosts are more common in gta than you think and finally the extremely simple physicist engine deemed acceptable to cartoon standards.

GT6 has even far less things to track; if realistic crashing was a thing then there be more but GT doesn't even want that to be a hallmark in their game. And like many high end graphical games the number of cheats they use is stupidly high all taking math but none the less delivers more for less cpu. Start modding those graphics options off and the game starts to look like crud real quick.

Wipeout example is rather silly since its the linerider example here in terms of complexity.

BF4 player attributes come closer to dust but the number of items are about 100x apart. Major differences is limited loadouts; linear progressions; no overhead stat altering system like the skill system; and very few weapons in the game number of properties though are near on par. BF4 also uses as custom engine the studio is very close with and knows its ever dark secret. Necode is highly experinced at this with about 12 games behind the team. Also the graphical engine for BF4 is very lightweight and turns ugly fast if you peel the layers out. Vehicles have zero adjustable properties so all copies of them are always the same. Despite running better in multiplayer the single player of BF4 has massive amounts of hilarity of issues to the point you almost have to question if the devs even played it.

No a more proper comparison on complexity would be

Borderlands being 32 players vs Dust 514 being 32 players.
and no borderlands at 32 players aint happening ps3 gen for sure.

Look you and I both know we don't like things that are done half ass or quater mule or anything less than the best.

However we have to come to certain terms.

PS3 has only 256x2 mb of memory available to us; (unknown page file size but that's for on demand things like mail and whatnot for less than commonly called up resources not second to second demanded needs for animation.)

Now here's where things get a bit nasty a significant portion consumed (40%) by the PS3 OS itself.

SO 40% of 256 MB is about 102.4 MB

You want to know what else is 102.4 MB large?

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/007/8/f/soe_oberon_by_novafox-d4lkb73.jpg

Actually j/k; the raws of this picture is 1.2 gigs memory; features only 120 undo steps, 52 layers, doesn't even animate, interact, or do anything fancy; its nice to be able to save it as a JPG though but that cuts all the features out. Editing Software runs on 800mb; os+support at 2gb

So now keep that in mind right now.

Now for a revelation I have heard at fanfest that I think would not do any harm in revealing.

Guess which vehicle has been in the dust 514 since near closed beta client but never seen?

Amarr HAV? Nope
Amarr LAV? Nope
Amarr DS? Nope
Amarr MCC? Nope
Minmatar HAV? Nope
Minmatar LAV? Nope
Minmatar DS? Nope
Minmatar MCC? Nope
MTACs? you wished.
Speeders? in your dreams
VTOLS? I wished...
MAVs? Don't we all?

I can list a dozen more ideas but the point remains that the Gallente RDV which has been in the game for such a long time hasn't made a debute because of the simple fact we are out of memory.

People we hit the limits of the ps3. We hit it long time ago. Yes you can yell that maybe dust 514 is terribly put together that doesn't change the fact that in order to get new models in; the others will have to take a hit in looks; performance; appearance; and essentially all have to be remodeled again in order to fit.

Chopping an HAV in half will not magically give us the memory we need; hell in order to shove one new HAV in we have to chop the three to 1/10th most likely because this will cover the physics, animations (yes the HAVs animate); sound rules; and so much more.

The same exact reason why MAG characters couldn't be customized; they too hit that limit. Probably the very damn reason why you will never see planetside 2 on the ps3 because of not the sheer number of people the game could throw at it but rather the sheer number of possible LOOKS (and physics and sounds) people can throw at it.

Look I too want to see proper models for everything I really do; one of my largest gripes with the other game. However in the sake of name of fun; balance; content; and time management. These well done reskins will hold until the day we either figure out how to magically make everything cost less memory or we just suddenly get a whole lot more of it.

Hell if you guys knew what sort of things are missing from even the current models due to low memory...

Some clarity is always nice, thank you for that IWS
however.. I'm sure you were prepared for the pitchforks, so let me grab mine

- The new maps. we hit the wall for new content and some of the worst maps to date where added.. ehhhmm wtf??

- Quafe .. we are nearing the limitations for new content, QUICKLY MAKE EVERYTHING PINK BEFORE ITS TOO LATE

- APEX.. adds 'something' a grind suit mostly.. if we had been asked, vehicles or APEX.. you know which we'd have picked

- Strongboxes / Missions / Warbarges, none really improve quality of play. I'd have went with performance upgrades

And that's just some thoughts on it.. we are nearing full capacity on memory...
That really makes me wonder why vanity items took priority over performance.

I can only imagine how much greater this game could be without the restrictions of the ageing PS3 architecture.

Some clarity is always nice, thank you for that IWS
however.. I'm sure you were prepared for the pitchforks, so let me grab mine

- The new maps. we hit the wall for new content and some of the worst maps to date where added.. ehhhmm wtf??

- Quafe .. we are nearing the limitations for new content, QUICKLY MAKE EVERYTHING PINK BEFORE ITS TOO LATE

- APEX.. adds 'something' a grind suit mostly.. if we had been asked, vehicles or APEX.. you know which we'd have picked

- Strongboxes / Missions / Warbarges, none really improve quality of play. I'd have went with performance upgrades

And that's just some thoughts on it.. we are nearing full capacity on memory...
That really makes me wonder why vanity items took priority over performance.

#cashgrab514 #aurlords

Because the more or less sneaky bugs does not depend (at least, not entirely) from "new stuff". You can possibly add hundreds of cosmetic items to a game without impacting the gameplay if you know how to handle and manage memory.
Problem is, probably, there are no resources to even try to optimize the "heavily modified" UE and todays small team is trying to do its best with the very limited resources it has ( for example, game design options instead of code optimizing).