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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2015.04.10 22:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
Look you and I both know we don't like things that are done half ass or quater mule or anything less than the best.
However we have to come to certain terms.
PS3 has only 256x2 mb of memory available to us; (unknown page file size but that's for on demand things like mail and whatnot for less than commonly called up resources not second to second demanded needs for animation.)
Now here's where things get a bit nasty a significant portion consumed (40%) by the PS3 OS itself.
SO 40% of 256 MB is about 102.4 MB
You want to know what else is 102.4 MB large?
http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/007/8/f/soe_oberon_by_novafox-d4lkb73.jpg
Actually j/k; the raws of this picture is 1.2 gigs memory; features only 120 undo steps, 52 layers, doesn't even animate, interact, or do anything fancy; its nice to be able to save it as a JPG though but that cuts all the features out. Editing Software runs on 800mb; os+support at 2gb
So now keep that in mind right now.
Now for a revelation I have heard at fanfest that I think would not do any harm in revealing.
Guess which vehicle has been in the dust 514 since near closed beta client but never seen?
Amarr HAV? Nope
Amarr LAV? Nope
Amarr DS? Nope
Amarr MCC? Nope
Minmatar HAV? Nope
Minmatar LAV? Nope
Minmatar DS? Nope
Minmatar MCC? Nope
MTACs? you wished.
Speeders? in your dreams
VTOLS? I wished...
MAVs? Don't we all?
I can list a dozen more ideas but the point remains that the Gallente RDV which has been in the game for such a long time hasn't made a debute because of the simple fact we are out of memory.
People we hit the limits of the ps3. We hit it long time ago. Yes you can yell that maybe dust 514 is terribly put together that doesn't change the fact that in order to get new models in; the others will have to take a hit in looks; performance; appearance; and essentially all have to be remodeled again in order to fit.
Chopping an HAV in half will not magically give us the memory we need; hell in order to shove one new HAV in we have to chop the three to 1/10th most likely because this will cover the physics, animations (yes the HAVs animate); sound rules; and so much more.
The same exact reason why MAG characters couldn't be customized; they too hit that limit. Probably the very damn reason why you will never see planetside 2 on the ps3 because of not the sheer number of people the game could throw at it but rather the sheer number of possible LOOKS (and physics and sounds) people can throw at it.
Look I too want to see proper models for everything I really do; one of my largest gripes with the other game. However in the sake of name of fun; balance; content; and time management. These well done reskins will hold until the day we either figure out how to magically make everything cost less memory or we just suddenly get a whole lot more of it.
Hell if you guys knew what sort of things are missing from even the current models due to low memory...
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2015.04.10 23:05:00 -
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Aero Yassavi wrote:I was well aware of this for a long time and figured it was going to be why we never got racial dropsuits. So, if you don't mind me asking, what changed that allowed CCP to add 5 new Dropsuit models in Uprising 1.8?
In the case of dropsuits the issue is not as massive as the HAVs because of commonality between all dropsuits; run animations; walk animations; sounds they generate and the likes. Also we'd likely did take a performance hit when they came in. The RDV was never brought it because it required a new set of animations for it and the physics involved with it is vastly different from that of the bolas. For example that minmatar HAV on the concept artwork... yeah there is no way you're copy pasting the soma's physics onto that and with the exposed treads you cannot get away not animating those.
I also don't see removing shock-asorbers/suspension from the tanks as an option
Either way I am no expert on these things my understanding is vague as well but I do understand the herculean efforts on making things as least costly as possible to run.
This becomes a race between looking good, looking acceptable, running fast and not melting customer platforms a balance of the four has to be maintained.
Eve ships are sourced from 2 million polygonal ships; clients only use about 50-200 per ship.
The eve nebula are 4TB MODELS EACH!!! the actual backdrops are small JPGs wrapped in a square manner (why is it not a sphere beats the hell out of me it might have chanced since it last broke but if you look hard in eve you can see some of the corners still)
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2015.04.10 23:14:00 -
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xxwhitedevilxx M wrote:I wonder how they made all the other games on ps3 then...
1. Multiplayer games are tricky because 100% of the assets have to be ready to enter the field of play at any given time because you will never know what a player may bring into your field of view so they're all loaded ALL the time.
2. Single players games gets away with a lot because they know what they need to load; they planned it. You are not going to suddenly get an enemy in a stage where it is not expected yet; thus it never gets loaded. Some games features a limited number of enemies but a varying degree of challenges of how they're encountered or Gasp! recolors of that enemies.
3. Weapons, vehicles, buildings even suffer similarly; copy paste recolor turn paste. This may be why even more modern games seem to be taking a hit with newer content being introduced into it (CoD AW >< taken a solid 2fps drop ever since the gun OHM landed)
4. Developer experience. There is no real replacement for this; it cant be bought or magically conjured up either. A highly efficient developer can easily come up with stupid solutions using the same resources. To which the solution is no longer stupid but considered a stroke of genius.
5. Dust 514 has another problem called feature bloating. Basically having this here that there; those where and these now all stacking together continuously grinds away at every other resources. When players are attesting they're gaining up to as much as 10+ fps from clearing out mail. we got feature bloat. I mean who the eff checks their mail mid combat anyways?
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2015.04.11 01:32:00 -
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That was Caldari actually. The fighter is new state styled akin to the new caracal and condors.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2015.04.11 01:56:00 -
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xxwhitedevilxx M wrote:Daddrobit wrote:xxwhitedevilxx M wrote:We have like:
Light x4, Medium x4, Heavy x4, HAV x2, Dropship x2, LAV x2.
Light weapons x10
Secondary x7
Heavy x2
Grenades
Remotes.
A total of 39 items + sockets. There must be something horribly wrong in this game and it's not the hardware.
The hardware definitely has its flaws, but i repeat, this time seriously, how does all the other companies made larger, stable games? Look at Fallout: the framerate is horrible sometimes, but somehow you understand it's almost asking too much for a ps3. Still they did it.
Edit:
Just read your post, and, yes mostly agree with that. Still, I'm sure there is something wrong with the game itself, that makes it so CPU-intensive. It may be a problem with certain sockets, with fittings and market, with variations, I simply don't know.
Reading your post made me think of a problem that used to have developers in the early ps3 days: code bloat. It may be understandable considering the inexistent experience on PS3 and the "heavily modified UE3" (moar line of code). Plus the 100s of different modules in all of the myriad ways they can be attached to and alter suits. Plus the 100s of different supporting skills in their literal millions of possible combinations of varying effectiveness affecting every aspect from how we move, how much base damage we dole out with their varying resistances based on range, tank, and proficiency, and how we perceive others and are perceived on the minimap to name a few persistent skills, all of which are constantly being calculated for all 32 players. There's more to it than you think kiddo, be happy we're finally getting parity that's at least color coded. Used to be that we just had two variants of the caldari assault, gallente scout, and amarr heavy that came in either armor or shield flavors. "kiddo", the 100s different modules and supporting skills are not calculated in real time. And if they do, it just proves my point  .
Lol. Dust 514 tracks 20000+ attributes over 15000 items. Ballpark number for most MMO shooters these days.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2015.04.11 02:02:00 -
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DUST Fiend wrote:So, without being able to confirm that Legion is being worked on daily, you've basically just confirmed that as far as evolution of the actual game goes...it's dead. It's nothing but bandaids from here on out. I mean we all knew this, it's just amusing to see you post it.
And obviously the game won't "die", but it sure as hell won't be going places.
That is your conclusion if you choose to live with it. I am in no position to correct you either at this time so it's a very unfair position to assert here to which results in nothing positively worked on. I rather continue productive conversations.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2015.04.11 04:35:00 -
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xxwhitedevilxx M wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:
Lol. Dust 514 tracks 20000+ attributes over 15000 items. Ballpark number for most MMO shooters these days are anywhere to a quater to rivaling our numbers depending on a number of things. Warframe would be up there in the numbers. Single gun there has 250 adjustable attributes and growing with every feature patch. They are probably around to 400 a gun now.
Ok, but none of them is rendered/calculated real time, right? What needs to be rendered / calculated real time are those 39 items and the sockets. Another story would be if the 15000 items are considered "separate" as if they were unique items...
Have you even tried doing the hazard math?
-32 players
-entire skill library
-skills attributes
-players attributes (boosters, standings, lp, isk, aur, ect ect quite a few actually, includes mail and chat channel and channel history)
-additional player altered actors (lets say 8 vehicles)
-small turrets on them as well so 24 totalish
-the state and condition of your guns at any given time on your current fit
-60 fits (these must be loaded into your memory so you can use them instantly when you select them)
-8 items a pop just to even things out but go as high as x12 if you want if they are going proto
-20 per module to be on the safe side
-50 per weapon (because they do things)
-1.5x more for the projectile emitters and projectile actors as well.
-MCC attributes are also accounted for.
-Hack points
-Null Launchers
-Base Turret attributes
-NPC Turret attributes
-RDV physics
just keep counting it up.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2015.04.11 17:32:00 -
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Shamarskii Simon wrote:I kinda feel you for saying ps3 is old and very restricted on memory.
But... Umm...
Grand Theft Auto 5? (nuff said)
Gran Turismo 6? (beautiful for how old the system is)
WipE'out HD? (great graphics for how old the game is)
Battlefield? (huge multi-player)
Unreal tournament 3 uses the same unreal engine but... It has so much to offer... And it runs similar engine, on same hardware. it's also far older, and looks/plays better.
Those games got the same hardware to work on, so.... Something is a likkle off... seeing the qualities of these games I can't really blame the console. I sound douchy but I gotta blame the programmers/developers mostly.
No offense guys, just calling it how I see it.
Ahem as mentioned before
GTA 5 is not only a single player game but the order of magnitude of things tracked is immensely smaller. A gta player vs a dust 514 player is probably order of magnitude 1,000x variables apart. Leaving lots of memory able to LOD stream objects, scripts, schedules and the likes to only what the player sees and in close proxima to his location. The streaming however has issues for example. If the player moves significantly faster than the LOD can handle there is geometry that is psychically there that will not render before it is too late; This has crashed many jets during high traffic times. near bridges. The game is entirely running on a very slim number of rules as notable with the excessively large number of glitches caused by situations arising to which the set rules cannot deal with it and was found to be within acceptable vision. One doesn't need to browse far to see the excessive number of glitches. Memory management of assest is still a major issue still at times; Misplaced vehicles because the game forgets where objects; failure to render completely; ghosts are more common in gta than you think and finally the extremely simple physicist engine deemed acceptable to cartoon standards.
GT6 has even far less things to track; if realistic crashing was a thing then there be more but GT doesn't even want that to be a hallmark in their game. And like many high end graphical games the number of cheats they use is stupidly high all taking math but none the less delivers more for less cpu. Start modding those graphics options off and the game starts to look like crud real quick.
Wipeout example is rather silly since its the linerider example here in terms of complexity.
BF4 player attributes come closer to dust but the number of items are about 100x apart. Major differences is limited loadouts; linear progressions; no overhead stat altering system like the skill system; and very few weapons in the game number of properties though are near on par. BF4 also uses as custom engine the studio is very close with and knows its ever dark secret. Necode is highly experinced at this with about 12 games behind the team. Also the graphical engine for BF4 is very lightweight and turns ugly fast if you peel the layers out. Vehicles have zero adjustable properties so all copies of them are always the same. Despite running better in multiplayer the single player of BF4 has massive amounts of hilarity of issues to the point you almost have to question if the devs even played it.
No a more proper comparison on complexity would be
Borderlands being 32 players vs Dust 514 being 32 players.
and no borderlands at 32 players aint happening ps3 gen for sure.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2015.04.11 19:47:00 -
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Cat Merc wrote:>Sees IWS saying that GTA V's physics engine is extremely simple
>Looks at DUST 514
>Looks at GTA V
>Looks at DUST 514 again
>Wonders what IWS is smoking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=504FLCY3aTA
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2015.04.11 19:53:00 -
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Cat Merc wrote:So, you find one place where the physics are hilarious and act like the whole game is just that? That car is highly upgraded with armor, far beyond physics would allow, which is why it behaves like that. Most cars in this game would behave as you would expect. Now compare it to DUST and... well... LOL
That was the first example I found. I can find much more hilarious failures there are many of them.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2015.04.11 19:58:00 -
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=54ifCSFRAIg&feature=youtu.be here you go.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2015.04.11 20:16:00 -
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Cat Merc wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Cat Merc wrote:So, you find one place where the physics are hilarious and act like the whole game is just that? That car is highly upgraded with armor, far beyond physics would allow, which is why it behaves like that. Most cars in this game would behave as you would expect. Now compare it to DUST and... well... LOL That was the first example I found. I can find much more hilarious failures there are many of them. Yeah, they are the exception, not the rule. Unlike in DUST. People record and upload them because they're exceptions.
Semantics argument to be honest. Which doesn't discount that GTAV not only has a wonky physics engine, the rules of the are known enough that they're persistently exploited for stunts.
They're not exceptions they're rules.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_OVVHpXw4E
Full of excessive rule breaks which can only argue the engine being used is rather simplified and likely a modified car rule set which is why many of the behaviors it expresses has more in common with the things on ground rather than a flying aircraft. Of course for the sake of the game its a game so not going to nit pick the issues that an aircraft of that nature should have but doesn't for the sake of fun.
Bikes are another massive rule breaker in GTA which is sad because they do a better job than the latest tony hawks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkNLp9g_Jqw
I seen this one being the new favorite one; but the silly fact that motorcycles and bikes under conditions acting like they have wings is pretty silly. Of course those that get some high vertical and horizontal seem to also have friction-less tires and no center of gravity.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2015.04.11 20:31:00 -
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Godin Thekiller wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:That was Caldari actually. The fighter is new state styled akin to the new caracal and condors. Wait, hold up; they actually do have models, but can't put them in because ****** memory?
The Carbon assets are not viable for our game atm. Also quite a few of them got scrapped from what I understand.
IE caldari had a single missile launcher; not a swarm launcher back then. The Caldari LAV was more buggy like than sports car like.
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Posted - 2015.04.11 20:45:00 -
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Godin Thekiller wrote:TheD1CK wrote:Some clarity is always nice, thank you for that IWS however.. I'm sure you were prepared for the pitchforks, so let me grab mine  - The new maps. we hit the wall for new content and some of the worst maps to date where added.. ehhhmm wtf?? - Quafe .. we are nearing the limitations for new content, QUICKLY MAKE EVERYTHING PINK BEFORE ITS TOO LATE - APEX.. adds 'something' a grind suit mostly.. if we had been asked, vehicles or APEX.. you know which we'd have picked - Strongboxes / Missions / Warbarges, none really improve quality of play. I'd have went with performance upgrades And that's just some thoughts on it.. we are nearing full capacity on memory... That really makes me wonder why vanity items took priority over performance. These vanity items don't take up much of anything, seeing as they are just adjusted assets that already exists.
We can likely have as many new maps as we like until we run out of hdd room.
Skins system may alleviate alot of this issue severly reducing the number of items and using a property that has to get loaded anyways for colors.
They don't have major impact on the game play either they dont seem to be effecting the field as much as one could hope for. Those three features together only added one new trait to track during combat; what level is your weapon ammo augmentation at?
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2015.04.11 20:47:00 -
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Godin Thekiller wrote:Cat Merc wrote:So, you find one place where the physics are hilarious and act like the whole game is just that? That car is highly upgraded with armor, far beyond physics would allow, which is why it behaves like that. Most cars in this game would behave as you would expect. Now compare it to DUST and... well... LOL falling physics are so ******* bad.
GTA V - Survives a 10000 foot skydive without chute because he hit a special corner of a building. "Nailed it"
Dust 514- Dies to a 1 inch rock - "FU"
Sadly there been more people killed by tripping on 1 inch rocks than people surviving high end sky dives without chutes.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2015.04.11 21:24:00 -
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Godin Thekiller wrote:IWS, do you think it would be possible for there to be unique models for all vehicles if we moved to say the PS$ (ex. The Nethana being more Buggy like, while the Limbus being something along the lines of this)?
The possibility easily rises as more tools are brought along; there is extreme amounts of variations you can do to a model and still only have it count as one thing; your CoD AW guns and eve ships even use tricks to lower their footprint despite looking vastly different.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2015.04.12 01:16:00 -
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Either way the practices dust are using now is a practice all games go through; save one star citizen.
Generally between features, quality, performance vs hardware, budget, and time.
Dust 514 is in a very aware state they too need to be doing this now; unlike the past development teams efforts which had over-focus on features; didn't mind the budget and scoffed at time; at the cost of performance; quality and enjoyable features.
CCP Rattati and to an greater extent CCP Rouge with continued positive support in steering this ship around; may look like a shanty boat now but who knows what it may be in the coming months.
Things are not perfect; they will never will be; changes will however will be constant and continue as we allow for it.
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Iron Wolf Saber
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Posted - 2015.04.12 01:28:00 -
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I mean Call of Duty Advanced Warfare runs okay on the PS3 and there are no features different on the PC version and yet
Minimal requirements:
OS: Windows 7 64-Bit / Windows 8 64-Bit / Windows 8.1 64-Bit
Processor: Intel-« CoreGäó i3-530 @ 2.93 GHz / AMD PhenomGäó II X4 810 @ 2.60 GHz
Memory: 6 GB RAM
Graphics: NVIDIA-« GeForce-« GTS 450 @ 1GB / ATI-« RadeonGäó HD 5870 @ 1GB
DirectX: Version 11
Network: Broadband Internet connection
Hard Drive: 55 GB available space
Sound Card: DirectX Compatible
Additional Notes: Field of View ranges from 65-¦-90-¦.
WTF bloated 5.5 -OS gigs of ram? and 750mbs of video ram?
I would seriously like to know. Can it run on a ps3 specced computer? probably though likely nowhere near as good as the ps3 version.
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Posted - 2015.04.12 02:52:00 -
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SgtMajSquish MLBJ wrote:The question now is why the hell havent we moved to the PS4 yet. F2P is acceptable now on the new platforms and it is just a better console overall
Shortest possible effing answer?
Money
Slightly longer?
It is not so much the amount but rather how best to 'invest' it. CCP is after all a business they don't willing spend money chasing dreams they make chasing dreams a livelyhood instead.
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Posted - 2015.04.12 02:54:00 -
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SgtMajSquish MLBJ wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:Songs of Seraphim wrote:At least someone is honest... need more honesty!!! \o/ honesty doesnt fix anything though
Fixes people's perception and relationships.
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Posted - 2015.04.12 02:57:00 -
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RemingtonBeaver wrote:Would moving the star map and corporation handling elements to an online app help?
I don't know how on board the community would be, but to free up resources, it may be an option.
Thanks for the communication IWS.
I have no idea; this is all things CCP has to explore on their own they have their hands on their software; the best we as outsiders can do is make educated guesses and notions of what we find acceptable for sacrifice or maybe a solution that not only improves performance but the feature as well.
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Posted - 2015.04.12 03:04:00 -
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Godin Thekiller wrote:SgtMajSquish MLBJ wrote:The question now is why the hell havent we moved to the PS4 yet. F2P is acceptable now on the new platforms and it is just a better console overall Because simply moving over can't be done, as it's an entirely different architecture.
Let me refine this answer.
It cannot be copy pasted over.
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Posted - 2015.04.12 04:43:00 -
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Isa Lucifer wrote:First off, thank you IWS for being honest with the community.
My humble opinion about this is; Much ado about nothing. Taking the mumbo jumbo out of the post and it says "we are all playing an inferior version of a good game because of ...."
Now the Rat needs to finish the sentence. Or he can just ignore it. Does not matter because all along we all knew it. We have swallowed the blue pill.
P.S. IWS; what is your motivation to release all this info. Did you and Rattati had a falloff? I kinda like soap operas.
I was somewhat mad at the posters over at the racial tank thread saying shove 2d artwork or scrapped models in place of the place holder tanks.
Also placeholder tanks lets us mess with the stats now and get them balanced and by the time we can get to a place or position to be able to add new windings into dust 514 without having to pull a tooth or two they would be already an enjoyable to use vehicle.
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Posted - 2015.04.12 17:38:00 -
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ReGnYuM wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:DUST Fiend wrote:So, without being able to confirm that Legion is being worked on daily, you've basically just confirmed that as far as evolution of the actual game goes...it's dead. It's nothing but bandaids from here on out. I mean we all knew this, it's just amusing to see you post it.
And obviously the game won't "die", but it sure as hell won't be going places. That is your conclusion if you choose to live with it. I am in no position to correct you either at this time so it's a very unfair position to assert here to which results in nothing positively worked on. I rather continue productive conversations. Your such a ******* coward IWS.
Go work somewhere where insurance refuses you on the job alone because it has been consistently rated in the top 10 most dangerous places to work.
Or maybe the reason why I don't break NDA is because people like yourself are so prone to butt hurt becuase plans change from day to day and telling them things even in a day of advance is potential for alot of butthurt.
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Posted - 2015.04.12 18:05:00 -
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Knightshade Belladonna wrote:
your'e sounding a bit butthurt now, just sayin'
what line of work are you talking about , not many that insurance completely refuses that I know of..you just get stuck with some high ass costs. Are you James Bond?
I am pretty sure James Bond got better health care than I ever did. :P
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Posted - 2015.04.12 20:32:00 -
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Not arguing your expertise but just to check what in your perception is the impact performance of the moods?
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Posted - 2015.04.13 05:45:00 -
[27] - Quote
Shamarskii Simon wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Not arguing your expertise but just to check what in your perception is the impact performance of the moods? toxic is just bad... BUT! by lowering player visibility, that gives leeway for optimization. And, are you able to share how somethings work? Especially with things being modified at runtime, etc. Or im asking the wrong person?
Mood impact has been found to be minimal.
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