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A quick question out of curiosity (for people who spec into AV)

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Tread Loudly 2 Ametat Security Amarr Empire 112	Posted - 2015.03.25 04:16:00 - [1] - Quote From what I've been reading a lot of AV players think that an HAV should be easily solo'd. Why is that? I mean I've been wondering why people want tanks to be pieces of paper for a while. I may sound like a bit of a vehicle supremacist but I've but nearly all of my SP into them so that'd make sense. However I still have proto AV, I enjoy running in a dropsuit as well... I just don't complain when I can't solo a tank with my AV fit... Just curious, please post responses in a critical manner :D thank you and have a nice day I Like Tanks, Nova Knives and MagSec SMG's.
Boot Booter Titans of Phoenix 1228	Posted - 2015.03.25 04:26:00 - [2] - Quote AV doesn't want to easily solo tanks they just want balance. Currently proto armor tanks are back to dominating infantry. Keep in mind that when you AV you have to deal with other infantry as well as the blaster turrets which insta pops anything. Even if you manage to get close to killing a tank, half the time they can just run away and leave you standing there like an idiot with nothing to do. My solution would be to slow tanks down so they can't easily run but also give them a huge buff in hp. I don't like this current tank hit and run philosophy.
Mikel Arias Challengers 506 92	Posted - 2015.03.25 04:30:00 - [3] - Quote It shouldnt be easy. A tank, or a dropship for the matter, is, or should be something to fear in the battlefield, and even tough it should be possible for a single AV player to take one out, this should be just because he is a great player who considers a lot of things like the map and the weapon, even the moment when he attacks. Of course, its also possible to destroy a tank with an useless driver (Im usually the useless driver now that Im learning how to use vehicles). If its not because the two things before (great AV player or bad pilot/driver), a tank should impose itself in a match, and to take them out they should be counter with another tank or with coordinate AV. Im not saying this because I want OP tanks, but a tank should be little bit OP, otherwise, whats the point of a tank? I love to destroy them, I think Im actually good doing that, but if it were a bit logical, a tank with a good driver should be able to change the flow of the battle, as well as one fuc**** good AV player should be able to face this tank, but no two tanks; coordinate AV players should take care of one or more tanks.
Zepod Titans of Phoenix 114	Posted - 2015.03.25 04:31:00 - [4] - Quote You've created a false generalization, very few (if any) AVers have actually claimed that HAVs should be easily soloed. You may not like what I said, but it's true. It might anger or offend you, but it's still true.
Tread Loudly 2 Ametat Security Amarr Empire 113	Posted - 2015.03.25 04:52:00 - [5] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: AV doesn't want to easily solo tanks they just want balance. Currently proto armor tanks are back to dominating infantry. Keep in mind that when you AV you have to deal with other infantry as well as the blaster turrets which insta pops anything. Even if you manage to get close to killing a tank, half the time they can just run away and leave you standing there like an idiot with nothing to do. My solution would be to slow tanks down so they can't easily run but also give them a huge buff in hp. I don't like this current tank hit and run philosophy. The way I'd hope for tanks to be re-worked is for there to be 3 different classes. These being 1st. Low HP, High Speed, and High Damage (Easily solo'd if on the front-lines due to low HP) 2nd. Med HP, Med Speed, and Med Damage (Should take 1-2 people varying on skill differentiation) 3rd. High HP, Low Speed, and Med Damage (2-3 depending on the situation but rarely should ever be able to KO'd) Now dropships, as much as I love them, they shouldn't be able to sustain fire from any type of AV, whether it be Forge guns or Swarms. However they should be able to get the hell out of dodge when needed and maybe even give them a way of getting rid of AV such as swarms by using flares. LAV's... Well they speak for themselves. Easily solo'd under sustained fire. However they need more utility than just tranportation. Re-worked logi LAV's would be a great thing to have again. I Like Tanks, Nova Knives and MagSec SMG's.
Operative 1174 Uuali Y.A.M.A.H 537	Posted - 2015.03.25 05:03:00 - [6] - Quote They want to equate an infantryman with a tank for some reason. They say they want balance, but I'd say they have it now with myofib jumping, rooftop camping and most objectives either inside, underground or high up. Still they complain when they can't get kills solo. They would rather use kills rather than helping the team by scaring the tank off or denying an area like a good little teammate. I get crap for kills in my missile gladius, but I sure run off or keep enemies busy for the team. Balance would be to make solo viable with swarms being a heavy weapon and no rooftop camping range. Death is a serious businessGÇª So is running a shoddy, half-baked game company.
Minmatar Mercenary 9292 Nos Nothi 604	Posted - 2015.03.25 05:06:00 - [7] - Quote Should i easily solo a tank? No Should I be able to solo a tank? Yes I think there has been a lot of bad feed back from both crappy AV players and crappy vehicle pilots which has led us down a never ending path of see saw balance. Mainly due to AV players not wanting to go to any effort to actual play the role of AV and just fire their swarms in the air for 10 seconds and have the tank explode, or from ignorant vehicle pilots who don't seem to realise the reason they insta died wasn't from some OP solo scrub with a swarm or whatever it's because 2-3 people were sick of your god damn buIIshit and went to the effort to kill you. We constantly have this back and forth of tanks OP or AV OP for these reasons, in my experience so far playing AV with the new tanks hasn't been so bad but I haven't done much as I haven't seen many tanks so far, the ones I have seen on the other side have been pretty killable. **** tankers? Maybe, but it's just as likely scrubs are to use to just shooting the air with swarms and having the tank go up in flames. If it's important to you, you'll find a way. If not you'll find an excuse.
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 1867	Posted - 2015.03.25 05:16:00 - [8] - Quote Why are you worried about soloing tanks? I count 6-8 swarmers every match. Why are you worried about why your enemies cry? I would worry more if they did not. Crush them
Mejt0 Dead Man's Game RUST415 1152	Posted - 2015.03.25 06:35:00 - [9] - Quote I think that current setup could be good... if we [you AV guys] could have an eqiupment for slowing ground vehicles. Something like a web. It would slow down tanks for x seconds [Dx = <20;60>]. It shouldn't be easy, that's why it would work that long. Caldari Hero Loyal To The State Mejt0 Sale List
Bar Be Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 114	Posted - 2015.03.25 07:27:00 - [10] - Quote Tread Loudly 2 wrote: From what I've been reading a lot of AV players think that an HAV should be easily solo'd. Why is that? I mean I've been wondering why people want tanks to be pieces of paper for a while. I may sound like a bit of a vehicle supremacist but I've but nearly all of my SP into them so that'd make sense. However I still have proto AV, I enjoy running in a dropsuit as well... I just don't complain when I can't solo a tank with my AV fit... Just curious, please post responses in a critical manner :D thank you and have a nice day If you are a bad driver I should be able to solo you. If you are a good driver, it should be hard to solo you. Why do tankers think they should be able to solo a whole team?

Reign Omega T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 1358	Posted - 2015.03.25 08:22:00 - [11] - Quote I think we are currently moving in a good direction. The main thing to consider that make this hard to balance is spam. Plain and simple. It's hard to balance single player av vs single vehicle because its usually not the case. Its usually 6 guys with proto Av humping a low level vehicle, or 6 proto tanks vs Le Av Seul. I think the 1 man tanks should be lighter and faster more skirmishes than seiges, and the 3 man tank should be slower and heavier, built for breach combat with high hp and less firepower. Its similar to being able to equip light weapons on heavy suits but not the reverse, a heavy with support is a force, a fat slow waddler with a puny gun is just a nuisance until you get in his mouth. Edit: I have been av since chrome, and have been a pilot since open beta. 42 mil and 28 mil respectively Edit part deux: and as always, I just roll with the punches with the game changes. Mark a$$ tricks, and bags of dicks....
Jin Foxdale This Is My Church 208	Posted - 2015.03.25 08:53:00 - [12] - Quote Of corse its great if you can destroy tanks, but I'm satisfied with scaring them off when solo. If anything, its better as i can yell at them as they run away in fear of me! If you see me running in circles, emptying all and every magazine, fear not! Its my 3 year old son enjoying New Eden...
Ghosts Chance Intara Direct Action Caldari State 3071	Posted - 2015.03.25 11:55:00 - [13] - Quote My name is Chances Ghost, and i solo HAVs Minmatar is Winmatar Creed of the Minja - "I'm a leaf on the wind" I am Chances Ghost
Otoky Dead Man's Game RUST415 181	Posted - 2015.03.25 12:15:00 - [14] - Quote I solo HAVs with preparation and caution. I use Proxys, AV nades, REs, Swarm. Sometimes all of them together sometimes just some of them. But it takes time and you miss a lot of WP as long you prepare your trap, study the tankers route and wait for him. Careful tankers can avoid a trap like this but the majority of tankers are cocky so it's not rare to trap the same tanker 2-3 times in a match.
RemingtonBeaver Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2099	Posted - 2015.03.25 12:53:00 - [15] - Quote AV player reporting in. I like where we're at. I don't mind not being able to solo vehicles anymore. It made my job more fun when I could, but I'm fine watching tankers run away like the little girls. I still get WP from damaging them, so I'm good. I only got 200 WP from busting a tank with the pilot inside. Now I get a steady flow of WP because of the hit and run tactics they're using. I think it honestly made the matches more interesting. Back when the only viable AV was a Forge Gun, it was more difficult because you'd have to fight off scouts and assault classes with a sidearm, which rarely worked out for the forge gunner. Now with a Commando class you can run AV and have a decent weapon to not get stomped by assaults, scouts, and HMGs. Now don't get me wrong, I'll still use the hell out of a forge gun, but that's when I'm sick of a squirrely tank getting away over and over. Tanks do seem to have a very tiny window of opportunity to be taken down and focus fire is a must. I see a lot more orbitals getting called in on tanks. I'm happy. Unleash the BIMBOBOT!
Vyzion Eyri WarRavens 2669	Posted - 2015.03.25 12:55:00 - [16] - Quote I'm speccing into swarms soon and I have no delusions about being able to 'solo' a Madrugar with a blaster pointed at my face. What I do think I can do, though, is run a Minmatar logistics suit with swarms, AV nades, nanohives, and various proxies, and bait the tank into fighting me and running over those proxies, eating mouthfuls of AV nades, and swarms. As mentioned above, an unskilled tanker will most likely fall for it, a skilled tanker will watch me jump around and maybe wait until I make a mistake and blap me, or move on and leave me useless to my team. It's not perfect, but tanks are very close to that sweet spot of balance where it requires skill to differentiate good tankers from bad, and similarly, good AV users will be able to get the drop on tankers, whilst bad ones will just die as they try again and again, frustrated as to why they can't look down the barrel of an ion cannon, break through hundreds of millimetres of armour plating, and get away without any enemy infantry shooting them down in the mean time. On the other hand, my dropships are swatted from the sky like they're annoying flies. I swerve, I dive, I spiral, even when I'm shooting in my ADS I try to be slowly rotating around my target, but I can't dodge swarms, and whenever I slow to drop off passengers or target an enemy, I become a juicy point farm for any AV user with at least one eye and a hand on the controller. The assault dropships I understand have to be a little flimsy, but the transport dropships are barely tougher, and require at least 2 people to have any real offensive capability, so should they not require two people to take down? Even then, the gunner is immobile and an easy hit for all those long range rifles. Don't mean to hijack the OP, just venting after a particularly painful set of dropship losses. > Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
P14GU3 UNIVERSAL C.A.R.N.A.G.E 1378	Posted - 2015.03.25 13:00:00 - [17] - Quote It shouldn't be easy, but no single player should be > any other single player. If one tanker always equals 2 AV, the balance is exponentially thrown off, and the meta becomes spam tanks. We have all seen it happen before. 'Sault AK.0 - Logi AK.0 - Logi GK.0 - Scout GK.0 - 'Mando MK.0 - Masshole in every sense of the word.
Ronin Merc Defenders of the Helghast Dream The Ditanian Alliance 8	Posted - 2015.03.25 13:01:00 - [18] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: AV doesn't want to easily solo tanks they just want balance. Currently proto armor tanks are back to dominating infantry. Keep in mind that when you AV you have to deal with other infantry as well as the blaster turrets which insta pops anything. Even if you manage to get close to killing a tank, half the time they can just run away and leave you standing there like an idiot with nothing to do. My solution would be to slow tanks down so they can't easily run but also give them a huge buff in hp. I don't like this current tank hit and run philosophy. EXACTLY! they are to fast. They do that hit and run tactic with crazy armor. Av against them is useless
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game RUST415 692	Posted - 2015.03.25 13:05:00 - [19] - Quote If anything the issue is large blasters being too efficient at killing infantry again. The upcoming fix to small blasters is needed. At that point I wouldn't mind being killed a lot by small blasters as it takes team work. As I understand it large blasters are meant to primarily be for AV, but since echo they are being used effecively for AI.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 620	Posted - 2015.03.25 13:12:00 - [20] - Quote The balance is broken, when one tank can sit more or less stationary without any threat. I think this is mostly due to matchmaking. I hope, that in the future, scotty will always put at leas two proto AV capable guys in the opposite team of every proto tanker. Only then balance can happen. My games are spoiled by vehicles, as soon as I play an alt that has no proto AV. My main usually has no problem to at least scare away tanks, so that my teams infantry can go on and deal with the red teams infantry. But on my weak ass alts, it can be a very bad experience. Especcially if you have a squad of tankers on the enemy team. Tanks backing each other up, are a real headache for infantry, but as long as there are enough proto AV capable guys against them it's not too much of a problem.

The Attorney General 2890	Posted - 2015.03.25 14:24:00 - [21] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: I'm speccing into swarms soon and I have no delusions about being able to 'solo' a Madrugar with a blaster pointed at my face. What I do think I can do, though, is run a Minmatar logistics suit with swarms, AV nades, nanohives, and various proxies, and bait the tank into fighting me and running over those proxies, eating mouthfuls of AV nades, and swarms. As mentioned above, an unskilled tanker will most likely fall for it, a skilled tanker will watch me jump around and maybe wait until I make a mistake and blap me, or move on and leave me useless to my team. This guy gets it. He is using all the tools in the box, and his brain, to engage an armored vehicle. I wish his attitude would rub off on the crybabies. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
Alena Ventrallis Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 2805	Posted - 2015.03.25 14:28:00 - [22] - Quote A tank with hardeners down should be relatively easy to solo for any equivalent AV. A tank with hardeners up should be a nigh unbreakable fortress that takes multiple people to kill. The issue now is that tanks can escape far too quickly and easily once their hardeners turn off. That's why we have balance problems. Imagine if a tank couldn't jet off over twice as fast as the fastest dropsuit. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Tread Loudly 2 Ametat Security Amarr Empire 116	Posted - 2015.03.25 14:33:00 - [23] - Quote Bar Be wrote: Tread Loudly 2 wrote: From what I've been reading a lot of AV players think that an HAV should be easily solo'd. Why is that? I mean I've been wondering why people want tanks to be pieces of paper for a while. I may sound like a bit of a vehicle supremacist but I've but nearly all of my SP into them so that'd make sense. However I still have proto AV, I enjoy running in a dropsuit as well... I just don't complain when I can't solo a tank with my AV fit... Just curious, please post responses in a critical manner :D thank you and have a nice day If you are a bad driver I should be able to solo you. If you are a good driver, it should be hard to solo you. Why do tankers think they should be able to solo a whole team? It's not that we feel, that we should be able to solo an entire team, it's that we feel with tanks at their current stage, and their current pricing, that it should require good teamwork in order to take down a properly built tank with an experienced driver. All the while I don't care to much about scrubby drivers, as they would just be cannon fodder for such tank pilot. I Like Tanks, Nova Knives and MagSec SMG's.
Otoky Dead Man's Game RUST415 184	Posted - 2015.03.25 14:35:00 - [24] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: The balance is broken, when one tank can sit more or less stationary without any threat. I think this is mostly due to matchmaking. I hope, that in the future, scotty will always put at leas two proto AV capable guys in the opposite team of every proto tanker. Only then balance can happen. My games are spoiled by vehicles, as soon as I play an alt that has no proto AV. My main usually has no problem to at least scare away tanks, so that my teams infantry can go on and deal with the red teams infantry. But on my weak ass alts, it can be a very bad experience. Especcially if you have a squad of tankers on the enemy team. Tanks backing each other up, are a real headache for infantry, but as long as there are enough proto AV capable guys against them it's not too much of a problem. When it comes to AV proto isn't a big boost. If you are smart or/and experienced enough than advanced AV gear is perfectly enough in pub games. Its just dosn't worth the risk to lose the proto AV gear (ISK wise) because its not boost your performance enough.
Tread Loudly 2 Ametat Security Amarr Empire 116	Posted - 2015.03.25 14:43:00 - [25] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: A tank with hardeners down should be relatively easy to solo for any equivalent AV. A tank with hardeners up should be a nigh unbreakable fortress that takes multiple people to kill. The issue now is that tanks can escape far too quickly and easily once their hardeners turn off. That's why we have balance problems. Imagine if a tank couldn't jet off over twice as fast as the fastest dropsuit. That's why we need variations to the tanks added (A Destroyer, a middleman and a Juggernaut). Having just these three variants would make it a much more complex game and cause both AV and enemy tanks to adjust their strategy in order to combat said tanks. I Like Tanks, Nova Knives and MagSec SMG's.
Balistyc Farshot The Exemplars 119	Posted - 2015.03.25 14:48:00 - [26] - Quote I perform AV and we all know the best counter to a tank in the current meta is another tank. AV requires a whole team to focus fire down one clone in a tank and that ties down multiple clones to achieve that. AV needs a buff, but the right AV is what needs a buff. They keep playing with swarms which is the biggest problem. If they made Forge guns, plasma cannons, and Proxy REs the anti tank AV there would be 0 complaints from skilled tankers because they would understand that skill was required to take them down. Read the hulls post and you see they built tanks for tank to tank combat not tank to infantry. Most tankers are just now getting deep into the hardners and seeing that they are OP stacked on proto vehicles. Plus the blaster buff was not smart for AI. I agree with the 3 classes of tank post. I also have been pushing for solo tanks to lose control of their main cannon and become drivers if they are keeping tanks in their current armored LAV mode. They need a clear role in combat and a clear counter that is not another tank. Now to start shotgunning and REing again, everyone will love this play style. Face Palm!
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. 4388	Posted - 2015.03.25 14:50:00 - [27] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: AV doesn't want to easily solo tanks they just want balance. Currently proto armor tanks are back to dominating infantry. Keep in mind that when you AV you have to deal with other infantry as well as the blaster turrets which insta pops anything. Even if you manage to get close to killing a tank, half the time they can just run away and leave you standing there like an idiot with nothing to do. My solution would be to slow tanks down so they can't easily run but also give them a huge buff in hp. I don't like this current tank hit and run philosophy. They want balance? HAH So much bull, they come out with' SP/ISK shouldn't be a balancing factor' as there excuse for a 5mil SP 60k AV fit being able to solo a 1.2mil ISK HAV fit with 30mil SP into it. Then it is always '1 player to 1 player' yet they stay quiet when i have 3 players in the HAV and 1 can solo it. Don't mention the swarm launcher and the various bugs with it in which makes it the OP weapon of the game for the last 3 years and still has not been fixed yet is still the most popular AV weapon. The JLAV still exists and can one shot any HAV no matter what build. AV nades have 1 more nade and lai dai will wreck in less than 3seconds and that is what a x3 skill and costs 20k? ADS got nerfed and swarms got buffed because they 'could fly away' from AV, it has no lock on warning, no countermeasures, not enough HP to tank mulitiple AV sources yet AV complained and yet again CCP catered to them and buffed the already easy mode swarms. AV doesn't have to deal with other infantry when they are on top of a tower or building just camping, commandos have a light weapon, AV nades require 1 nade slot, PLC can kill infantry and a FG can too. So much for being defenceless. A tank moves when it is being hit with too much AV, woe is me, #1st world problems. Tough. CCP has nerfed reps/boosters/base hp/extenders/plates/skills and skill bonuses which all lead to having a vehicle with less PG/CPU to fit on nerfed mods all because AV complain. All because AV cannot work together and are consistantly camping on a roof trying to solo something with swarms. Does AV really want to battle a slow moving behemoth HAV which may have 15k+ HP and enough slots to have decent fits and variety and be a moving fortress? No because it would be too hard for them, it would actually require teamwork, it would not be instant gratification. 61mil SP into vehicles and i could do more for cheaper if i was infantry. Disclaimer: The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514 CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
The Attorney General 2891	Posted - 2015.03.25 14:59:00 - [28] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: A tank with hardeners down should be relatively easy to solo for any equivalent AV. A tank with hardeners up should be a nigh unbreakable fortress that takes multiple people to kill. The issue now is that tanks can escape far too quickly and easily once their hardeners turn off. That's why we have balance problems. Imagine if a tank couldn't jet off over twice as fast as the fastest dropsuit. Imagine if infantry actually attacked from a good position? (Tank dies) Imagine if people who were trying to tackle a full tank actually brought an equal number of people? (Tank dies) The balance problems largely stem from the awful infantry practices in use, not the fact that a tank has a retreat option. Infantry can literally jump above the turret elevation of blaster tanks while they rain down av nades and plc shots, but the tank being somewhat able to retreat is the problem? You smokin'? Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
The Attorney General 2891	Posted - 2015.03.25 15:07:00 - [29] - Quote Balistyc Farshot wrote: I perform AV and we all know the best counter to a tank in the current meta is another tank. AV requires a whole team to focus fire down one clone in a tank and that ties down multiple clones to achieve that. AV needs a buff, but the right AV is what needs a buff. They keep playing with swarms which is the biggest problem. If they made Forge guns, plasma cannons, and Proxy REs the anti tank AV there would be 0 complaints from skilled tankers because they would understand that skill was required to take them down. Read the hulls post and you see they built tanks for tank to tank combat not tank to infantry. Most tankers are just now getting deep into the hardners and seeing that they are OP stacked on proto vehicles. Plus the blaster buff was not smart for AI. I agree with the 3 classes of tank post. I also have been pushing for solo tanks to lose control of their main cannon and become drivers if they are keeping tanks in their current armored LAV mode. They need a clear role in combat and a clear counter that is not another tank. AV does not require a whole team to focus fire. A single player, in a BPO suit, in a BPO LAV, with just the bare minimum of SP into demolitions can destroy any tank by touching it. As long as the don't drive right at the tank, they don't even have to tank the LAV at all. A single player, using those same demolitions skills can lay a set of proxy mines, carry a PLC and some AV nades and destroy a tank. This myth that you need a team of AV to drop a tank is perpetuated by bad players who refuse to even consider the idea that you might actually have to not suck to tackle a tank by yourself. But no, lets cater to the lowest common denominator and make it even easier for BPO suits with standard weapons to drop tanks. The scale of the tank doesn't matter, because they don't get any stronger as they go up in tier, so if you can kill a standard maddie, you can kill all tanks. AV needs a buff? No, av players need some understanding that I as a tanker am working very hard to not get into their wheelhouse, while still needing to be map away enough to not get JLAV'd while keeping my eyes peeled for dropships to make sure I have enough time to get to cover if I need to, while also making sure that I am actually being productive for my team. All the AV has to do, in their mind, is spawn in an AV suit and I should explode. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
SoLJae Society of Light 689	Posted - 2015.03.25 15:08:00 - [30] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Imagine if infantry actually attacked from a good position? (Tank dies) Imagine if people who were trying to tackle a full tank actually brought an equal number of people? (Tank dies) The balance problems largely stem from the awful infantry practices in use, not the fact that a tank has a retreat option. Infantry can literally jump above the turret elevation of blaster tanks while they rain down av nades and plc shots, but the tank being somewhat able to retreat is the problem? You smokin'? Wow. They DO all comeback to DUST ;-) You still Zion, A G? ...and I agree with your assessment. Proper deployment of infantry AV can effectively counter tank deployments. +1

Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 554	Posted - 2015.03.25 15:18:00 - [31] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: If anything the issue is large blasters being too efficient at killing infantry again. The upcoming fix to small blasters is needed. At that point I wouldn't mind being killed a lot by small blasters as it takes team work. As I understand it large blasters are meant to primarily be for AV, but since echo they are being used effecively for AI. I don't want tanks to be easy to kill. But I don't want solo tankers to be too good at killing infantry. Pro tank with pro small blaster, massacring any infantry in range and not cowering; that's what I want to see. The large blasters are fine. The madruger hulls that they are mounted on that are literally invincible to anything less than 3+ AV players or 2+ tanks are not fine. I dont have a problem with tanks being able to slaughter infantry as long as its possible to fight back, right now it isnt.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 3125	Posted - 2015.03.25 15:54:00 - [32] - Quote Balistyc Farshot wrote: I perform AV and we all know the best counter to a tank in the current meta is another tank. As it should be. AV requires a whole team to focus fire down one clone in a tank and that ties down multiple clones to achieve that. A whole team? What is that, at least the entirely of a laser strike in one second concentrated down to one point? All it takes is one YOLO scout throwing his YOLO AV grenades to chase off any tank. Might outright destroy a base HP shield tank if caught cold. AV needs a buff, but the right AV is what needs a buff. No, intelligence needs a buff, not AV. The answer for you people is always 'buff AV'. Heavy being a problem? Buff swarms. Can't hit a scout? Buff swarms. Scouts throwing REs half a football field and detonating them? Buff swarms. They keep playing with swarms which is the biggest problem. Would be nice if they would force you to use aim and remove them. If they made Forge guns, plasma cannons, and Proxy REs the anti tank AV there would be 0 complaints from skilled tankers because they would understand that skill was required to take them down. You couldn't possibly how few times people have actually used their brain to take me out. Read the hulls post and you see they built tanks for tank to tank combat not tank to infantry. Yeah, so AV should be nerfed so we can have actual tank battles without someone like you butting in and quickly deciding the victor. If he built tanks to fight other tanks, don't you think AV should take a background role? Most tankers are just now getting deep into the hardners and seeing that they are OP stacked on proto vehicles. Plus the blaster buff was not smart for AI. Rattati still wants the blaster to be AV. Those that have aim use it for AI. Then again, aim was replaced with luck because we were able to properly aim. I agree with the 3 classes of tank post. I also have been pushing for solo tanks to lose control of their main cannon and become drivers if they are keeping tanks in their current armored LAV mode. If that's the case, then a second person needs to take equipment out of a logi's pack. How does it sound having some fresh academy grad handling PRO gear? They need a clear role in combat and a clear counter that is not another tank. Again, tanks were designed around pounding each other into oblivion. Why should AV still be the best counter? Sounds to me either you don't have AV, or you're going against exceedingly intelligent pilots and are not able to solo a single one, nevermind all of them, because they use their vast experience to not get destroyed. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Outlaw OneZero Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1609	Posted - 2015.03.25 15:54:00 - [33] - Quote P14GU3 wrote: It shouldn't be easy, but no single player should be > any other single player. If one tanker always equals 2 AV, the balance is exponentially thrown off, and the meta becomes spam tanks. We have all seen it happen before. This is exactly right. 1 player = 1 player. Should AV solo HAVs easily? Not unless the pilot is dumb or the meta level difference is large (militia HAV vs. Proto AV). Why do pilots think they should solo AV easily? When 2 players of similar skill and the same level of gear face each other it should be an even contest. When one player is running a fit that is the clear counter to another, they should have a slight advantage. (AV vs Vehicle) Add small turret gunners and you should shift the balance dramatically, add another AV users and it should start to swing back the other way. Smart tankers should be able to tank the alpha strike from a smart AV player, but then they should have to work to survive. AV players should be able to see vehicles coming and be able to find cover before being killed (assuming they're not caught completely in the open). PS: for all you guys that insist that tanks in real life can stand up to infantry AV, you are sadly mistaken. SOP for many armor units is to draw a 4 kilometer circle on the map around any infantry AV assets and then either bypass or delay until your own infantry can clear them out. I'd also be interested to see what would happen if HAV pilots were forced into 1st person view and if they wanted 3rd person they would be exposed to small arms fire. That one change alone might help resolve a lot of issues between AV and HAV. Hello, is this thing on?
Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 555	Posted - 2015.03.25 16:19:00 - [34] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Vyzion Eyri wrote: I'm speccing into swarms soon and I have no delusions about being able to 'solo' a Madrugar with a blaster pointed at my face. What I do think I can do, though, is run a Minmatar logistics suit with swarms, AV nades, nanohives, and various proxies, and bait the tank into fighting me and running over those proxies, eating mouthfuls of AV nades, and swarms. As mentioned above, an unskilled tanker will most likely fall for it, a skilled tanker will watch me jump around and maybe wait until I make a mistake and blap me, or move on and leave me useless to my team. This guy gets it. He is using all the tools in the box, and his brain, to engage an armored vehicle. I wish his attitude would rub off on the crybabies. Are you serious? So he has to basically run a dropsuit that is completely defenseless against infantry, and then essentially commit suicide in front of the vehicle in the hopes that the tank driver is stupid enough to fall for the bait and run over proxies, and you think that this expectation is fair and balanced gameplay? In the mean time if the tanker isnt an idiot and just chooses to use the main turret's dominant range advantage or just ignores the AV'er and move on, the AV player is literally useless. How do you think this is ok? Then you paint everyone who doesnt accept this bend over and take it view of the AV role as crybabies, like its unreasonable and childish to expect the anti vehicle role to be able to kill vehicles, yes, even when they arent driven by people with less than two brain cells! Stay classy.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 3126	Posted - 2015.03.25 16:33:00 - [35] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: Are you serious? So he has to basically run a dropsuit that is completely defenseless against infantry, Commando suit has two light weapon slots. I used to have both Gallente and Minmatar - Minmando annihilates vehicles. and then essentially commit suicide in front of the vehicle If someone is stupid enough to run in front of a tank to launch their YOLO swarms and YOLO AV grenades, then they deserve to die every single time. in the hopes that the tank driver is stupid enough to fall for the bait and run over proxies, This happens maybe twice every 12 months. Players in corps where English isn't their first language have a far easier time destroying me, because they'll do whatever it takes, vs people getting on the English forums and whining that they can't take out a tank while running in front of it screaming "voila snackbar!" and throwing their YOLO AV grenades. and you think that this expectation is fair and balanced gameplay? Tanks should counter tanks. That's fair and balanced. Whose fault is it you have absolutely 0 SP invested in vehicles? Certainly not my fault. Then again, you'd complain that it's too hard to kill infantry and other tanks in your own tank, but you absolutely won't mention your complete lack of experience in a tank. In the mean time if the tanker isnt an idiot and just chooses to use the main turret's dominant range advantage Railgun and missile require a direct shot, blaster is down to luck and a tiny bit of aim. What dominant range? If I snipe you with my railgun, it was your fault for staying still. or just ignores the AV'er and move on, the AV player is literally useless. How do you think this is ok? It's called moving away from a bad spot. You're essentially complaining that you can't solo a tank in 2 seconds, which is at it should be. Then you paint everyone who doesnt accept this bend over and take it view of the AV role as crybabies, Yet pilots are supposed to and have been bending over for more than 3 years due to infantry complaining. like its unreasonable and childish to expect the anti vehicle role to be able to kill vehicles, yes, even when they arent driven by people with less than two brain cells! Lots of infantry have less than two brains, because they'll keep trying to take out expert pilots using teamwork and failing every time. I suppose you think it's OP that pilots use teamwork, and that that needs to be nerfed. Stay classy. I love how, for years, the answer has been to nerf vehicles and buff AV. It has happened a bunch of times, and each time required time and resources spent on vehicles and AV when it could've gone to ironing out more bugs and creating more content.j Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 3126	Posted - 2015.03.25 16:36:00 - [36] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: I dont have a problem with tanks being able to slaughter infantry as long as its possible to fight back, right now it isnt. It's called taking a dropship on to a roof. The other team has done it to me often enough. I make sure to stay out of swarm lock on range. I'm not too worried about forge guns because they require aim. AV on a roof = no risk, all reward. You should try it some time. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 3126	Posted - 2015.03.25 16:37:00 - [37] - Quote Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Alena Ventrallis wrote: A tank with hardeners down should be relatively easy to solo for any equivalent AV. A tank with hardeners up should be a nigh unbreakable fortress that takes multiple people to kill. The issue now is that tanks can escape far too quickly and easily once their hardeners turn off. That's why we have balance problems. Imagine if a tank couldn't jet off over twice as fast as the fastest dropsuit. That's why we need variations to the tanks added (A Destroyer, a middleman and a Juggernaut). Having just these three variants would make it a much more complex game and cause both AV and enemy tanks to adjust their strategy in order to combat said tanks. We are getting DHAVs and UHAVs. Only question is, when. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 3126	Posted - 2015.03.25 16:40:00 - [38] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: words of wisdom Finally another experienced person to push back. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 3126	Posted - 2015.03.25 16:45:00 - [39] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: AV does not require a whole team to focus fire. Exactly A single player, in a BPO suit, in a BPO LAV, with just the bare minimum of SP into demolitions can destroy any tank by touching it. As long as the don't drive right at the tank, they don't even have to tank the LAV at all. The epitome of EZ, no risk all reward BS. A single player, using those same demolitions skills can lay a set of proxy mines, carry a PLC and some AV nades and destroy a tank. Timing and thinking is OP, nerf timing and thinking. This myth that you need a team of AV to drop a tank is perpetuated by bad players who refuse to even consider the idea that you might actually have to not suck to tackle a tank by yourself. Agreed - they assume you need the entirety of a laser concentrated into two seconds focused on a single point to take out a tank. But no, lets cater to the lowest common denominator That has been the problem since tanks were introduced. AV needs a buff? No, av players need some understanding that I as a tanker am working very hard to not get into their wheelhouse, while still needing to be map away enough to not get JLAV'd while keeping my eyes peeled for dropships to make sure I have enough time to get to cover if I need to, while also making sure that I am actually being productive for my team. The ability to multitask is OP, nerf the ability to multitask. All the AV has to do, in their mind, is spawn in an AV suit and I should explode. [i]That, or run away in fear and recall at the sight of MLT Anti-Armor CA. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Outlaw OneZero Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1612	Posted - 2015.03.25 16:45:00 - [40] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: 1. They want balance? HAH 2. So much bull, they come out with' SP/ISK shouldn't be a balancing factor' as there excuse for a 2. 5mil SP 60k AV fit being able to solo a 1.2mil ISK HAV fit with 30mil SP into it. 3. Then it is always '1 player to 1 player' yet they stay quiet when i have 3 players in the HAV and 1 can solo it. 4.Don't mention the swarm launcher and the various bugs with it in which makes it the OP weapon of the game for the last 3 years and still has not been fixed yet is still the most popular AV weapon. 5. The JLAV still exists and can one shot any HAV no matter what build. 6. AV nades have 1 more nade and lai dai will wreck in less than 3seconds and that is what a x3 skill and costs 20k? 7. ADS got nerfed and swarms got buffed because they 'could fly away' from AV, it has no lock on warning, no countermeasures, not enough HP to tank mulitiple AV sources yet AV complained and yet again CCP catered to them and buffed the already easy mode swarms. 8. AV doesn't have to deal with other infantry when they are on top of a tower or building just camping, commandos have a light weapon, AV nades require 1 nade slot, PLC can kill infantry and a FG can too. So much for being defenceless. 1. Absolutely, I want everyone to have a fair chance at winning any 1 v 1 engagement where they have the appropriate tools for the job, better tactics and skills should be the deciding factor. 2. I think they should reduce SP and ISK costs to be more in line with infantry roles, the SP investment for the vehicle tree is ridiculous and the cost of HAVs is out of line with the amount of benefit 1 player should get. Cost should be added to small turrets so that when you add gunners the cost scales in line with the additional firepower, but then small turrets damn well better be useful. 3. Gunners should dramatically improve the ability of an HAV to survive and should make it nearly impossible for AV to solo. 4. Bad weapon is bad, this one AV weapon creates so many balancing issues. Rendering problems, flying through and around obstacles, the swarm is an abomination. Tweak it back to a deterrent and not a primary AV weapon, then try to rebalance and see where we stand. 5. Fix AV/Vehicle balance and then remove the ability of remotes to stick to LAVs or the contact detonation. JLAV was a legitimate tactic for Tank 514, if we can find balance it should go. 6. AV nades should be balanced around range, if you get killed by AV nades it should be because you got too close and were stationary for too long. Myos complicate the balance on this, not sure how to fix that issue. 7. DS mobility is crap. They fly like air hockey pucks now, they have been much better in the past. Give DS pilots a responsive, maneuverable platform and see what happens. 8. Tower camping has always been a problem for infantry and vehicles alike. Tough nut to crack though, if DS was capable of tanking some AV fire, it would be counterable, but right now if you get there first with enough logi and AV support, you're there to stay. AV infantry is at a disadvantage against regular infantry, even commandos don't stand up well against a properly fit assault. AV grenades should be very short range. PLC and Forge require skill to kill infantry with if you're not roof camping. Takahiro Kashuken wrote: A tank moves when it is being hit with too much AV, woe is me, #1st world problems. Tough. CCP has nerfed reps/boosters/base hp/extenders/plates/skills and skill bonuses which all lead to having a vehicle with less PG/CPU to fit on nerfed mods all because AV complain. Fitting on vehicles is so broken, why are CPU and PG mods nearly required for a good fit? Boosters need to go back to several pulses over time. Skills and bonuses are crap for the vehicle tree. Go back and look at Chrome vehicles, modules, skills and use that as a starting point to rework vehicles, nearly everything since then has been a disaster. Hello, is this thing on?

Vesta Opalus T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 555	Posted - 2015.03.25 16:46:00 - [41] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Vesta Opalus wrote: Are you serious? So he has to basically run a dropsuit that is completely defenseless against infantry, Commando suit has two light weapon slots. I used to have both Gallente and Minmatar - Minmando annihilates vehicles. and then essentially commit suicide in front of the vehicle If someone is stupid enough to run in front of a tank to launch their YOLO swarms and YOLO AV grenades, then they deserve to die every single time. in the hopes that the tank driver is stupid enough to fall for the bait and run over proxies, This happens maybe twice every 12 months. Players in corps where English isn't their first language have a far easier time destroying me, because they'll do whatever it takes, vs people getting on the English forums and whining that they can't take out a tank while running in front of it screaming "voila snackbar!" and throwing their YOLO AV grenades. and you think that this expectation is fair and balanced gameplay? Tanks should counter tanks. That's fair and balanced. Whose fault is it you have absolutely 0 SP invested in vehicles? Certainly not my fault. Then again, you'd complain that it's too hard to kill infantry and other tanks in your own tank, but you absolutely won't mention your complete lack of experience in a tank. In the mean time if the tanker isnt an idiot and just chooses to use the main turret's dominant range advantage Railgun and missile require a direct shot, blaster is down to luck and a tiny bit of aim. What dominant range? If I snipe you with my railgun, it was your fault for staying still. or just ignores the AV'er and move on, the AV player is literally useless. How do you think this is ok? It's called moving away from a bad spot. You're essentially complaining that you can't solo a tank in 2 seconds, which is at it should be. Then you paint everyone who doesnt accept this bend over and take it view of the AV role as crybabies, Yet pilots are supposed to and have been bending over for more than 3 years due to infantry complaining. like its unreasonable and childish to expect the anti vehicle role to be able to kill vehicles, yes, even when they arent driven by people with less than two brain cells! Lots of infantry have less than two brains, because they'll keep trying to take out expert pilots using teamwork and failing every time. I suppose you think it's OP that pilots use teamwork, and that that needs to be nerfed. Stay classy. I love how, for years, the answer has been to nerf vehicles and buff AV. It has happened a bunch of times, and each time required time and resources spent on vehicles and AV when it could've gone to ironing out more bugs and creating more content.j 1. My reply was to a discussion about someone fitting out a min logi as AV, not min commando. 2. I do have a vehicle alt and there is virtually no effort involved in killing infantry, and indeed no effort involved in killing gunnlogis now when Im in the madruger. 3. Im not talking about soloing tanks in 2 seconds, Im talking about the madruger being killable at all. 4. AV cant be buffed right now, because dropships are on a knife edge already. Madruger is completely nuts right now and its unkillable and needs to be nerfed.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3582	Posted - 2015.03.25 16:47:00 - [42] - Quote Let me turn that around on the OP... Why should a solo AV NOT be able to kill an HAV?
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 628	Posted - 2015.03.25 16:49:00 - [43] - Quote Otoky wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: The balance is broken, when one tank can sit more or less stationary without any threat. I think this is mostly due to matchmaking. I hope, that in the future, scotty will always put at leas two proto AV capable guys in the opposite team of every proto tanker. Only then balance can happen. My games are spoiled by vehicles, as soon as I play an alt that has no proto AV. My main usually has no problem to at least scare away tanks, so that my teams infantry can go on and deal with the red teams infantry. But on my weak ass alts, it can be a very bad experience. Especcially if you have a squad of tankers on the enemy team. Tanks backing each other up, are a real headache for infantry, but as long as there are enough proto AV capable guys against them it's not too much of a problem. When it comes to AV proto isn't a big boost. If you are smart or/and experienced enough than advanced AV gear is perfectly enough in pub games. Its just dosn't worth the risk to lose the proto AV gear (ISK wise) because its not boost your performance enough. I beg to differ, since this small difference is often the sliver of health with which the vehicles get away. It's a big difference, if I can get a derpship in one clip or if I need one shot more. The reload +¡s a big factor, even if you have a maxed swarm fitting. The resistences right now, have made me using only fits that give me the full dps of a full proto setup. And I still loose quite a lot of those, due to small turret gunners or infantry. If I'd drop my damage mods and the swarms to advanced, It would be a big difference.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 3131	Posted - 2015.03.25 16:54:00 - [44] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: 1. My reply was to a discussion about someone fitting out a min logi as AV, not min commando. You were complaining about someone having no defense against infantry. Absolutely nobody forced the guy to use a Min logi as AV, it was a conscious decision to use a suit with no sidearm slot to try to tackle a tank. 2. I do have a vehicle alt and there is virtually no effort involved in killing infantry, and indeed no effort involved in killing gunnlogis now when Im in the madruger. So that tells me you go against teams that have no skilled and no skilled tanks. Lucky for you, I get shafted all the time. 3. Im not talking about soloing tanks in 2 seconds, Im talking about the madruger being killable at all. It is able to be destroyed, just that it shouldn't be able to be soloed by a scout shouting out YOLO while throwing nuclear baseballs. 4. AV cant be buffed right now, because dropships are on a knife edge already. Madruger is completely nuts right now and its unkillable and needs to be nerfed. Rattati spent I'm sure a few months working on vehicles. Why would he essentially erase some of that time and effort to nerf tanks just because some bad people can't solo armor tanks anymore? AV should never again receive a buff. It's been buffed countless times, and infantry still complained that they couldn't solo a tank without needing to reload. Pilots have told infantry many times how to destroy us, but none of them took our advice and said "it shouldn't be that hard, I shouldn't have to wait, I shouldn't have to use proper positioning, boo hoo." Let's see.................. why, exactly, should armor tanks be nerfed? Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 3131	Posted - 2015.03.25 16:56:00 - [45] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: Let me turn that around on the OP... Why should a solo AV NOT be able to kill an HAV? Should I or should I not let only the OP answer it... Screw it Native English speakers on here are the most spoiled I've ever seen on a game forum. If they can't solo a tank without needing to reload, then the tank needs to be nerfed and the AV needs to be buffed. I really, really want someone to get sick of infantry crying all the time, say "HTFU," and say with finality that AV will never again get buffed. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
Tread Loudly 2 Ametat Security Amarr Empire 119	Posted - 2015.03.25 17:01:00 - [46] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: Let me turn that around on the OP... Why should a solo AV NOT be able to kill an HAV? Well based off of the concept of Risk vs Reward which is what a large majority of Dust is based off a 100k suit shouldn't be able to take down a 800k+ Vehicle by himself/herself given that the driver knows how to fit his/her vehicle and knows how to drive it. However there is also a disposition between the needing of skill and the ability to point hold a button and release compared to operating modules at specific time and being able to properly engage and disengage targets... Does that answer your question friend? :D I Like Tanks, Nova Knives and MagSec SMG's.
Boot Booter Titans of Phoenix 1242	Posted - 2015.03.25 17:12:00 - [47] - Quote Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Boot Booter wrote: AV doesn't want to easily solo tanks they just want balance. Currently proto armor tanks are back to dominating infantry. Keep in mind that when you AV you have to deal with other infantry as well as the blaster turrets which insta pops anything. Even if you manage to get close to killing a tank, half the time they can just run away and leave you standing there like an idiot with nothing to do. My solution would be to slow tanks down so they can't easily run but also give them a huge buff in hp. I don't like this current tank hit and run philosophy. They want balance? HAH So much bull, they come out with' SP/ISK shouldn't be a balancing factor' as there excuse for a 5mil SP 60k AV fit being able to solo a 1.2mil ISK HAV fit with 30mil SP into it. Then it is always '1 player to 1 player' yet they stay quiet when i have 3 players in the HAV and 1 can solo it. Don't mention the swarm launcher and the various bugs with it in which makes it the OP weapon of the game for the last 3 years and still has not been fixed yet is still the most popular AV weapon. The JLAV still exists and can one shot any HAV no matter what build. AV nades have 1 more nade and lai dai will wreck in less than 3seconds and that is what a x3 skill and costs 20k? ADS got nerfed and swarms got buffed because they 'could fly away' from AV, it has no lock on warning, no countermeasures, not enough HP to tank mulitiple AV sources yet AV complained and yet again CCP catered to them and buffed the already easy mode swarms. AV doesn't have to deal with other infantry when they are on top of a tower or building just camping, commandos have a light weapon, AV nades require 1 nade slot, PLC can kill infantry and a FG can too. So much for being defenceless. A tank moves when it is being hit with too much AV, woe is me, #1st world problems. Tough. CCP has nerfed reps/boosters/base hp/extenders/plates/skills and skill bonuses which all lead to having a vehicle with less PG/CPU to fit on nerfed mods all because AV complain. All because AV cannot work together and are consistantly camping on a roof trying to solo something with swarms. Does AV really want to battle a slow moving behemoth HAV which may have 15k+ HP and enough slots to have decent fits and variety and be a moving fortress? No because it would be too hard for them, it would actually require teamwork, it would not be instant gratification. 61mil SP into vehicles and i could do more for cheaper if i was infantry. Disclaimer: The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514 We are trying to have a constructive conversation here. Every respectable player just wants balance at this point in the game. A good AV character can easily cost 30 mil sp. Think about weapons, proficiency, nades, core upgrades, equipments, and the suit itself. Furthermore, while an AV suit may indeed be cheaper, they will also die many times trying to take down tanks. That's good and fine with me. However let not kid ourselves, a proto tank with a good pilot can roll around dominating the field with little resistance. Part of this is the large blaster being too good at AI again, like someone else said. The ADS is a little weak, however they are still very effective at killing. In a competitive environment they can be a huge issue for ground troops and require an AV man to keep it away. That 1 player neutralizing 1 player, balance. I'm not going to address all your comments but I'll finish with yes, I'd rather see HAVs being a slow moving fortress. I saw an interesting post the other day that proposed new modules for tanks to support infantry. These included a nanite cluster which healed nearby infantry or supplied ammo. Couple this with mcrus and we have a new interactive dynamic between AV and vehicles. Part of the reason the two are so hard to balance is because they are so polarized, I. E. Very different playstyles and mindsets with little connection.
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3582	Posted - 2015.03.25 17:20:00 - [48] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Leadfoot10 wrote: Let me turn that around on the OP... Why should a solo AV NOT be able to kill an HAV? Should I or should I not let only the OP answer it... Screw it Native English speakers on here are the most spoiled I've ever seen on a game forum. If they can't solo a tank without needing to reload, then the tank needs to be nerfed and the AV needs to be buffed. I really, really want someone to get sick of infantry crying all the time, say "HTFU," and say with finality that AV will never again get buffed. Nobody asked you. Lol
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3582	Posted - 2015.03.25 17:24:00 - [49] - Quote Tread Loudly 2 wrote: Leadfoot10 wrote: Let me turn that around on the OP... Why should a solo AV NOT be able to kill an HAV? Well based off of the concept of Risk vs Reward which is what a large majority of Dust is based off a 100k suit shouldn't be able to take down a 800k+ Vehicle by himself/herself given that the driver knows how to fit his/her vehicle and knows how to drive it. However there is also a disposition between the needing of skill and the ability to point hold a button and release compared to operating modules at specific time and being able to properly engage and disengage targets... Does that answer your question friend? :D Then why does a mlt suit one shot a proto suit, where the cost disparity is the same and the TTk much lower? Bad logic is bad.
Racro 01 Arifistan Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 523	Posted - 2015.03.25 17:27:00 - [50] - Quote this is probably off topic but comeing from both fully speeed vehicles and LIGHT av ( swarms / PLC and a v nades) my only issue is...............................officer avweapons. *Elite Gallenten Soldier*

Spkr4theDead Red Star. 3136	Posted - 2015.03.25 18:27:00 - [51] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Boot Booter wrote: AV doesn't want to easily solo tanks they just want balance. Currently proto armor tanks are back to dominating infantry. Keep in mind that when you AV you have to deal with other infantry as well as the blaster turrets which insta pops anything. Even if you manage to get close to killing a tank, half the time they can just run away and leave you standing there like an idiot with nothing to do. My solution would be to slow tanks down so they can't easily run but also give them a huge buff in hp. I don't like this current tank hit and run philosophy. They want balance? HAH So much bull, they come out with' SP/ISK shouldn't be a balancing factor' as there excuse for a 5mil SP 60k AV fit being able to solo a 1.2mil ISK HAV fit with 30mil SP into it. Then it is always '1 player to 1 player' yet they stay quiet when i have 3 players in the HAV and 1 can solo it. Don't mention the swarm launcher and the various bugs with it in which makes it the OP weapon of the game for the last 3 years and still has not been fixed yet is still the most popular AV weapon. The JLAV still exists and can one shot any HAV no matter what build. AV nades have 1 more nade and lai dai will wreck in less than 3seconds and that is what a x3 skill and costs 20k? ADS got nerfed and swarms got buffed because they 'could fly away' from AV, it has no lock on warning, no countermeasures, not enough HP to tank mulitiple AV sources yet AV complained and yet again CCP catered to them and buffed the already easy mode swarms. AV doesn't have to deal with other infantry when they are on top of a tower or building just camping, commandos have a light weapon, AV nades require 1 nade slot, PLC can kill infantry and a FG can too. So much for being defenceless. A tank moves when it is being hit with too much AV, woe is me, #1st world problems. Tough. CCP has nerfed reps/boosters/base hp/extenders/plates/skills and skill bonuses which all lead to having a vehicle with less PG/CPU to fit on nerfed mods all because AV complain. All because AV cannot work together and are consistantly camping on a roof trying to solo something with swarms. Does AV really want to battle a slow moving behemoth HAV which may have 15k+ HP and enough slots to have decent fits and variety and be a moving fortress? No because it would be too hard for them, it would actually require teamwork, it would not be instant gratification. 61mil SP into vehicles and i could do more for cheaper if i was infantry. Disclaimer: The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514 We are trying to have a constructive conversation here. Every respectable player just wants balance at this point in the game. A good AV character can easily cost 30 mil sp. Think about weapons, proficiency, nades, core upgrades, equipments, and the suit itself. Furthermore, while an AV suit may indeed be cheaper, they will also die many times trying to take down tanks. That's good and fine with me. However let not kid ourselves, a proto tank with a good pilot can roll around dominating the field with little resistance. Part of this is the large blaster being too good at AI again, like someone else said. The ADS is a little weak, however they are still very effective at killing. In a competitive environment they can be a huge issue for ground troops and require an AV man to keep it away. That 1 player neutralizing 1 player, balance. I'm not going to address all your comments but I'll finish with yes, I'd rather see HAVs being a slow moving fortress. I saw an interesting post the other day that proposed new modules for tanks to support infantry. These included a nanite cluster which healed nearby infantry or supplied ammo. Couple this with mcrus and we have a new interactive dynamic between AV and vehicles. Part of the reason the two are so hard to balance is because they are so polarized, I. E. Very different playstyles and mindsets with little connection. All it takes is a garbage suit, level 3 in core fitting, and level 5 in swarms to keep any vehicle at bay. A pittance in SP. Nope. Confirming that pilot input is not, and never was, valued. - Breakin Stuff
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK Rise Of Legion. 3275	Posted - 2015.03.25 18:30:00 - [52] - Quote HAV`s are easily solo`d. Do it all the time. (If they are a shield tank at least.... muhaha "Have a nice ball of gloopy hot plasma Guni" muhahahaha) Vitantur Nothus wrote: Why hide a solution under frothy pile of derpa? SCV Ready!
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK Rise Of Legion. 3275	Posted - 2015.03.25 18:31:00 - [53] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Takahiro Kashuken wrote: Boot Booter wrote: AV doesn't want to easily solo tanks they just want balance. Currently proto armor tanks are back to dominating infantry. Keep in mind that when you AV you have to deal with other infantry as well as the blaster turrets which insta pops anything. Even if you manage to get close to killing a tank, half the time they can just run away and leave you standing there like an idiot with nothing to do. My solution would be to slow tanks down so they can't easily run but also give them a huge buff in hp. I don't like this current tank hit and run philosophy. They want balance? HAH So much bull, they come out with' SP/ISK shouldn't be a balancing factor' as there excuse for a 5mil SP 60k AV fit being able to solo a 1.2mil ISK HAV fit with 30mil SP into it. Then it is always '1 player to 1 player' yet they stay quiet when i have 3 players in the HAV and 1 can solo it. Don't mention the swarm launcher and the various bugs with it in which makes it the OP weapon of the game for the last 3 years and still has not been fixed yet is still the most popular AV weapon. The JLAV still exists and can one shot any HAV no matter what build. AV nades have 1 more nade and lai dai will wreck in less than 3seconds and that is what a x3 skill and costs 20k? ADS got nerfed and swarms got buffed because they 'could fly away' from AV, it has no lock on warning, no countermeasures, not enough HP to tank mulitiple AV sources yet AV complained and yet again CCP catered to them and buffed the already easy mode swarms. AV doesn't have to deal with other infantry when they are on top of a tower or building just camping, commandos have a light weapon, AV nades require 1 nade slot, PLC can kill infantry and a FG can too. So much for being defenceless. A tank moves when it is being hit with too much AV, woe is me, #1st world problems. Tough. CCP has nerfed reps/boosters/base hp/extenders/plates/skills and skill bonuses which all lead to having a vehicle with less PG/CPU to fit on nerfed mods all because AV complain. All because AV cannot work together and are consistantly camping on a roof trying to solo something with swarms. Does AV really want to battle a slow moving behemoth HAV which may have 15k+ HP and enough slots to have decent fits and variety and be a moving fortress? No because it would be too hard for them, it would actually require teamwork, it would not be instant gratification. 61mil SP into vehicles and i could do more for cheaper if i was infantry. Disclaimer: The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514 We are trying to have a constructive conversation here. Every respectable player just wants balance at this point in the game. A good AV character can easily cost 30 mil sp. Think about weapons, proficiency, nades, core upgrades, equipments, and the suit itself. Furthermore, while an AV suit may indeed be cheaper, they will also die many times trying to take down tanks. That's good and fine with me. However let not kid ourselves, a proto tank with a good pilot can roll around dominating the field with little resistance. Part of this is the large blaster being too good at AI again, like someone else said. The ADS is a little weak, however they are still very effective at killing. In a competitive environment they can be a huge issue for ground troops and require an AV man to keep it away. That 1 player neutralizing 1 player, balance. I'm not going to address all your comments but I'll finish with yes, I'd rather see HAVs being a slow moving fortress. I saw an interesting post the other day that proposed new modules for tanks to support infantry. These included a nanite cluster which healed nearby infantry or supplied ammo. Couple this with mcrus and we have a new interactive dynamic between AV and vehicles. Part of the reason the two are so hard to balance is because they are so polarized, I. E. Very different playstyles and mindsets with little connection. All it takes is a garbage suit, level 3 in core fitting, and level 5 in swarms to keep any vehicle at bay. A pittance in SP. Swarms are the scrubs choice of AV. Forge gunners and Plc'ers command respect from you ***** ass tankers! Vitantur Nothus wrote: Why hide a solution under frothy pile of derpa? SCV Ready!
DozersMouse XIII Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1016	Posted - 2015.03.25 19:29:00 - [54] - Quote my av fit has two sets of proxies, packed av grenades, nanos, and swarms I should be able to solo a tank and I will it all comes down to how smart the tanker really is Shotgun me once, shame on me Shotgun me twice, scans on you
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1595	Posted - 2015.03.25 21:40:00 - [55] - Quote Tread Loudly 2 wrote: From what I've been reading a lot of AV players think that an HAV should be easily solo'd. Why is that? I mean I've been wondering why people want tanks to be pieces of paper for a while. I may sound like a bit of a vehicle supremacist but I've but nearly all of my SP into them so that'd make sense. However I still have proto AV, I enjoy running in a dropsuit as well... I just don't complain when I can't solo a tank with my AV fit... Just curious, please post responses in a critical manner :D thank you and have a nice day I don't think they should be easily soloed.Why do tankers insist that all infantry be easily soloed? This is a game and a tank is one player, they should not be able to be the equivalent of 2 or 3 players simply by the fit they choose. It should come down to who outplays who, with a slight edge to the greater SP and ISK expenditure. Because, that's why.
Nothing Certain Bioshock Rejects 1595	Posted - 2015.03.25 21:46:00 - [56] - Quote The first thing we should do to balance AV/Vehicles is remove the ability to switch suits at a supply depot. Being able to do this makes no sense and punishes both pilots and dedicated AVers. Because, that's why.
Reign Omega T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 1360	Posted - 2015.03.26 03:49:00 - [57] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: I'm speccing into swarms soon and I have no delusions about being able to 'solo' a Madrugar with a blaster pointed at my face. What I do think I can do, though, is run a Minmatar logistics suit with swarms, AV nades, nanohives, and various proxies, and bait the tank into fighting me and running over those proxies, eating mouthfuls of AV nades, and swarms. As mentioned above, an unskilled tanker will most likely fall for it, a skilled tanker will watch me jump around and maybe wait until I make a mistake and blap me, or move on and leave me useless to my team. It's not perfect, but tanks are very close to that sweet spot of balance where it requires skill to differentiate good tankers from bad, and similarly, good AV users will be able to get the drop on tankers, whilst bad ones will just die as they try again and again, frustrated as to why they can't look down the barrel of an ion cannon, break through hundreds of millimetres of armour plating, and get away without any enemy infantry shooting them down in the mean time. On the other hand, my dropships are swatted from the sky like they're annoying flies. I swerve, I dive, I spiral, even when I'm shooting in my ADS I try to be slowly rotating around my target, but I can't dodge swarms, and whenever I slow to drop off passengers or target an enemy, I become a juicy point farm for any AV user with at least one eye and a hand on the controller. The assault dropships I understand have to be a little flimsy, but the transport dropships are barely tougher, and require at least 2 people to have any real offensive capability, so should they not require two people to take down? Even then, the gunner is immobile and an easy hit for all those long range rifles. Don't mean to hijack the OP, just venting after a particularly painful set of dropship losses. Any, and I do mean any suit is better at av than logi. Save for Amarr with his sweet sweet sidearm . Mark a$$ tricks, and bags of dicks....
Juno Tristan Obscure Reference 480	Posted - 2015.03.26 05:44:00 - [58] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: Let me turn that around on the OP... Why should a solo AV NOT be able to kill an HAV? I'm not the op, but I'd say since there is no tankbush, vehicles are dependent on teamwork as they can't hack and on many maps can't access the point They are also a much more visible target with a larger hitbox, following infantry logic the easier you are to spot the higher hp buffer ADS Ramming Revenge! Plasma Cannon Rampage
Thor Odinson42 Negative-Feedback 6341	Posted - 2015.03.26 06:35:00 - [59] - Quote I don't think it should be able to be solo'd easily. But if you are within grenade range it shouldn't be too hard for a couple of people to do it.
The Attorney General 2903	Posted - 2015.03.26 21:10:00 - [60] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: Let me turn that around on the OP... Why should a solo AV NOT be able to kill an HAV? They can. Now lets turn this around on to you: If you hate vehicles so much, and are too special ed to be able to kill them, why don't you just stick to ambush where the mean tanks can't get you? Mr. Hybrid Vayu.

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 17845	Posted - 2015.03.26 21:25:00 - [61] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: AV doesn't want to easily solo tanks they just want balance. If such were true and I'm not saying there aren't those out there like Atiim and Breaking who make good cases then there would a great deal more mathematically supported feed back coming from them any no statements like . "I can't do dis so dis is OP". Need more Atiim's and Breaking's and less of the above. Raphael: I'm warning you. Do not leave me here. I will find you. Castiel: Maybe one day. Today you're my little bitch
Reign Omega T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 1362	Posted - 2015.03.26 22:02:00 - [62] - Quote I played for 4 hours last night before downtime, popped many tanks. Whats the fuss? Mark a$$ tricks, and bags of dicks....
tal mrak-thanl Aethan Dor 288	Posted - 2015.03.26 22:43:00 - [63] - Quote There aren't a whole lotta people with gv.0s right now. Somas and sicas are still basically just AV WP repositories.
Reign Omega T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 1363	Posted - 2015.03.26 23:24:00 - [64] - Quote tal mrak-thanl wrote: There aren't a whole lotta people with gv.0s right now. Somas and sicas are still basically just AV WP repositories. I saw a guy with Gv.0 last night from Outer Heaven, he was tearing it up. I wasn't in the mood to AV that match tho so I didnt get a chance to test him out. Mark a$$ tricks, and bags of dicks....
tal mrak-thanl Aethan Dor 289	Posted - 2015.03.27 00:27:00 - [65] - Quote Ha, saw Duna squad w/ 4 other proto tanks in a line harvest Dom this morning. I think my whole team was playing AV after getting lined. It was a massacre. Pretty sure they lost 1 tank the whole match.


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