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A quick question out of curiosity (for people who spec into AV)

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Tread Loudly 2 Ametat Security Amarr Empire 112	Posted - 2015.03.25 04:16:00 - [1] - Quote From what I've been reading a lot of AV players think that an HAV should be easily solo'd. Why is that? I mean I've been wondering why people want tanks to be pieces of paper for a while. I may sound like a bit of a vehicle supremacist but I've but nearly all of my SP into them so that'd make sense. However I still have proto AV, I enjoy running in a dropsuit as well... I just don't complain when I can't solo a tank with my AV fit... Just curious, please post responses in a critical manner :D thank you and have a nice day I Like Tanks, Nova Knives and MagSec SMG's.
Boot Booter Titans of Phoenix 1228	Posted - 2015.03.25 04:26:00 - [2] - Quote AV doesn't want to easily solo tanks they just want balance. Currently proto armor tanks are back to dominating infantry. Keep in mind that when you AV you have to deal with other infantry as well as the blaster turrets which insta pops anything. Even if you manage to get close to killing a tank, half the time they can just run away and leave you standing there like an idiot with nothing to do. My solution would be to slow tanks down so they can't easily run but also give them a huge buff in hp. I don't like this current tank hit and run philosophy.
Mikel Arias Challengers 506 92	Posted - 2015.03.25 04:30:00 - [3] - Quote It shouldnt be easy. A tank, or a dropship for the matter, is, or should be something to fear in the battlefield, and even tough it should be possible for a single AV player to take one out, this should be just because he is a great player who considers a lot of things like the map and the weapon, even the moment when he attacks. Of course, its also possible to destroy a tank with an useless driver (Im usually the useless driver now that Im learning how to use vehicles). If its not because the two things before (great AV player or bad pilot/driver), a tank should impose itself in a match, and to take them out they should be counter with another tank or with coordinate AV. Im not saying this because I want OP tanks, but a tank should be little bit OP, otherwise, whats the point of a tank? I love to destroy them, I think Im actually good doing that, but if it were a bit logical, a tank with a good driver should be able to change the flow of the battle, as well as one fuc**** good AV player should be able to face this tank, but no two tanks; coordinate AV players should take care of one or more tanks.
Zepod Titans of Phoenix 114	Posted - 2015.03.25 04:31:00 - [4] - Quote You've created a false generalization, very few (if any) AVers have actually claimed that HAVs should be easily soloed. You may not like what I said, but it's true. It might anger or offend you, but it's still true.
Tread Loudly 2 Ametat Security Amarr Empire 113	Posted - 2015.03.25 04:52:00 - [5] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: AV doesn't want to easily solo tanks they just want balance. Currently proto armor tanks are back to dominating infantry. Keep in mind that when you AV you have to deal with other infantry as well as the blaster turrets which insta pops anything. Even if you manage to get close to killing a tank, half the time they can just run away and leave you standing there like an idiot with nothing to do. My solution would be to slow tanks down so they can't easily run but also give them a huge buff in hp. I don't like this current tank hit and run philosophy. The way I'd hope for tanks to be re-worked is for there to be 3 different classes. These being 1st. Low HP, High Speed, and High Damage (Easily solo'd if on the front-lines due to low HP) 2nd. Med HP, Med Speed, and Med Damage (Should take 1-2 people varying on skill differentiation) 3rd. High HP, Low Speed, and Med Damage (2-3 depending on the situation but rarely should ever be able to KO'd) Now dropships, as much as I love them, they shouldn't be able to sustain fire from any type of AV, whether it be Forge guns or Swarms. However they should be able to get the hell out of dodge when needed and maybe even give them a way of getting rid of AV such as swarms by using flares. LAV's... Well they speak for themselves. Easily solo'd under sustained fire. However they need more utility than just tranportation. Re-worked logi LAV's would be a great thing to have again. I Like Tanks, Nova Knives and MagSec SMG's.
Operative 1174 Uuali Y.A.M.A.H 537	Posted - 2015.03.25 05:03:00 - [6] - Quote They want to equate an infantryman with a tank for some reason. They say they want balance, but I'd say they have it now with myofib jumping, rooftop camping and most objectives either inside, underground or high up. Still they complain when they can't get kills solo. They would rather use kills rather than helping the team by scaring the tank off or denying an area like a good little teammate. I get crap for kills in my missile gladius, but I sure run off or keep enemies busy for the team. Balance would be to make solo viable with swarms being a heavy weapon and no rooftop camping range. Death is a serious businessGÇª So is running a shoddy, half-baked game company.
Minmatar Mercenary 9292 Nos Nothi 604	Posted - 2015.03.25 05:06:00 - [7] - Quote Should i easily solo a tank? No Should I be able to solo a tank? Yes I think there has been a lot of bad feed back from both crappy AV players and crappy vehicle pilots which has led us down a never ending path of see saw balance. Mainly due to AV players not wanting to go to any effort to actual play the role of AV and just fire their swarms in the air for 10 seconds and have the tank explode, or from ignorant vehicle pilots who don't seem to realise the reason they insta died wasn't from some OP solo scrub with a swarm or whatever it's because 2-3 people were sick of your god damn buIIshit and went to the effort to kill you. We constantly have this back and forth of tanks OP or AV OP for these reasons, in my experience so far playing AV with the new tanks hasn't been so bad but I haven't done much as I haven't seen many tanks so far, the ones I have seen on the other side have been pretty killable. **** tankers? Maybe, but it's just as likely scrubs are to use to just shooting the air with swarms and having the tank go up in flames. If it's important to you, you'll find a way. If not you'll find an excuse.
Darken-Sol BIG BAD W0LVES 1867	Posted - 2015.03.25 05:16:00 - [8] - Quote Why are you worried about soloing tanks? I count 6-8 swarmers every match. Why are you worried about why your enemies cry? I would worry more if they did not. Crush them
Mejt0 Dead Man's Game RUST415 1152	Posted - 2015.03.25 06:35:00 - [9] - Quote I think that current setup could be good... if we [you AV guys] could have an eqiupment for slowing ground vehicles. Something like a web. It would slow down tanks for x seconds [Dx = <20;60>]. It shouldn't be easy, that's why it would work that long. Caldari Hero Loyal To The State Mejt0 Sale List
Bar Be Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 114	Posted - 2015.03.25 07:27:00 - [10] - Quote Tread Loudly 2 wrote: From what I've been reading a lot of AV players think that an HAV should be easily solo'd. Why is that? I mean I've been wondering why people want tanks to be pieces of paper for a while. I may sound like a bit of a vehicle supremacist but I've but nearly all of my SP into them so that'd make sense. However I still have proto AV, I enjoy running in a dropsuit as well... I just don't complain when I can't solo a tank with my AV fit... Just curious, please post responses in a critical manner :D thank you and have a nice day If you are a bad driver I should be able to solo you. If you are a good driver, it should be hard to solo you. Why do tankers think they should be able to solo a whole team?

Reign Omega T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 1358	Posted - 2015.03.25 08:22:00 - [11] - Quote I think we are currently moving in a good direction. The main thing to consider that make this hard to balance is spam. Plain and simple. It's hard to balance single player av vs single vehicle because its usually not the case. Its usually 6 guys with proto Av humping a low level vehicle, or 6 proto tanks vs Le Av Seul. I think the 1 man tanks should be lighter and faster more skirmishes than seiges, and the 3 man tank should be slower and heavier, built for breach combat with high hp and less firepower. Its similar to being able to equip light weapons on heavy suits but not the reverse, a heavy with support is a force, a fat slow waddler with a puny gun is just a nuisance until you get in his mouth. Edit: I have been av since chrome, and have been a pilot since open beta. 42 mil and 28 mil respectively Edit part deux: and as always, I just roll with the punches with the game changes. Mark a$$ tricks, and bags of dicks....
Jin Foxdale This Is My Church 208	Posted - 2015.03.25 08:53:00 - [12] - Quote Of corse its great if you can destroy tanks, but I'm satisfied with scaring them off when solo. If anything, its better as i can yell at them as they run away in fear of me! If you see me running in circles, emptying all and every magazine, fear not! Its my 3 year old son enjoying New Eden...
Ghosts Chance Intara Direct Action Caldari State 3071	Posted - 2015.03.25 11:55:00 - [13] - Quote My name is Chances Ghost, and i solo HAVs Minmatar is Winmatar Creed of the Minja - "I'm a leaf on the wind" I am Chances Ghost
Otoky Dead Man's Game RUST415 181	Posted - 2015.03.25 12:15:00 - [14] - Quote I solo HAVs with preparation and caution. I use Proxys, AV nades, REs, Swarm. Sometimes all of them together sometimes just some of them. But it takes time and you miss a lot of WP as long you prepare your trap, study the tankers route and wait for him. Careful tankers can avoid a trap like this but the majority of tankers are cocky so it's not rare to trap the same tanker 2-3 times in a match.
RemingtonBeaver Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2099	Posted - 2015.03.25 12:53:00 - [15] - Quote AV player reporting in. I like where we're at. I don't mind not being able to solo vehicles anymore. It made my job more fun when I could, but I'm fine watching tankers run away like the little girls. I still get WP from damaging them, so I'm good. I only got 200 WP from busting a tank with the pilot inside. Now I get a steady flow of WP because of the hit and run tactics they're using. I think it honestly made the matches more interesting. Back when the only viable AV was a Forge Gun, it was more difficult because you'd have to fight off scouts and assault classes with a sidearm, which rarely worked out for the forge gunner. Now with a Commando class you can run AV and have a decent weapon to not get stomped by assaults, scouts, and HMGs. Now don't get me wrong, I'll still use the hell out of a forge gun, but that's when I'm sick of a squirrely tank getting away over and over. Tanks do seem to have a very tiny window of opportunity to be taken down and focus fire is a must. I see a lot more orbitals getting called in on tanks. I'm happy. Unleash the BIMBOBOT!
Vyzion Eyri WarRavens 2669	Posted - 2015.03.25 12:55:00 - [16] - Quote I'm speccing into swarms soon and I have no delusions about being able to 'solo' a Madrugar with a blaster pointed at my face. What I do think I can do, though, is run a Minmatar logistics suit with swarms, AV nades, nanohives, and various proxies, and bait the tank into fighting me and running over those proxies, eating mouthfuls of AV nades, and swarms. As mentioned above, an unskilled tanker will most likely fall for it, a skilled tanker will watch me jump around and maybe wait until I make a mistake and blap me, or move on and leave me useless to my team. It's not perfect, but tanks are very close to that sweet spot of balance where it requires skill to differentiate good tankers from bad, and similarly, good AV users will be able to get the drop on tankers, whilst bad ones will just die as they try again and again, frustrated as to why they can't look down the barrel of an ion cannon, break through hundreds of millimetres of armour plating, and get away without any enemy infantry shooting them down in the mean time. On the other hand, my dropships are swatted from the sky like they're annoying flies. I swerve, I dive, I spiral, even when I'm shooting in my ADS I try to be slowly rotating around my target, but I can't dodge swarms, and whenever I slow to drop off passengers or target an enemy, I become a juicy point farm for any AV user with at least one eye and a hand on the controller. The assault dropships I understand have to be a little flimsy, but the transport dropships are barely tougher, and require at least 2 people to have any real offensive capability, so should they not require two people to take down? Even then, the gunner is immobile and an easy hit for all those long range rifles. Don't mean to hijack the OP, just venting after a particularly painful set of dropship losses. > Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
P14GU3 UNIVERSAL C.A.R.N.A.G.E 1378	Posted - 2015.03.25 13:00:00 - [17] - Quote It shouldn't be easy, but no single player should be > any other single player. If one tanker always equals 2 AV, the balance is exponentially thrown off, and the meta becomes spam tanks. We have all seen it happen before. 'Sault AK.0 - Logi AK.0 - Logi GK.0 - Scout GK.0 - 'Mando MK.0 - Masshole in every sense of the word.
Ronin Merc Defenders of the Helghast Dream The Ditanian Alliance 8	Posted - 2015.03.25 13:01:00 - [18] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: AV doesn't want to easily solo tanks they just want balance. Currently proto armor tanks are back to dominating infantry. Keep in mind that when you AV you have to deal with other infantry as well as the blaster turrets which insta pops anything. Even if you manage to get close to killing a tank, half the time they can just run away and leave you standing there like an idiot with nothing to do. My solution would be to slow tanks down so they can't easily run but also give them a huge buff in hp. I don't like this current tank hit and run philosophy. EXACTLY! they are to fast. They do that hit and run tactic with crazy armor. Av against them is useless
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game RUST415 692	Posted - 2015.03.25 13:05:00 - [19] - Quote If anything the issue is large blasters being too efficient at killing infantry again. The upcoming fix to small blasters is needed. At that point I wouldn't mind being killed a lot by small blasters as it takes team work. As I understand it large blasters are meant to primarily be for AV, but since echo they are being used effecively for AI.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 620	Posted - 2015.03.25 13:12:00 - [20] - Quote The balance is broken, when one tank can sit more or less stationary without any threat. I think this is mostly due to matchmaking. I hope, that in the future, scotty will always put at leas two proto AV capable guys in the opposite team of every proto tanker. Only then balance can happen. My games are spoiled by vehicles, as soon as I play an alt that has no proto AV. My main usually has no problem to at least scare away tanks, so that my teams infantry can go on and deal with the red teams infantry. But on my weak ass alts, it can be a very bad experience. Especcially if you have a squad of tankers on the enemy team. Tanks backing each other up, are a real headache for infantry, but as long as there are enough proto AV capable guys against them it's not too much of a problem.

The Attorney General 2890	Posted - 2015.03.25 14:24:00 - [21] - Quote Vyzion Eyri wrote: I'm speccing into swarms soon and I have no delusions about being able to 'solo' a Madrugar with a blaster pointed at my face. What I do think I can do, though, is run a Minmatar logistics suit with swarms, AV nades, nanohives, and various proxies, and bait the tank into fighting me and running over those proxies, eating mouthfuls of AV nades, and swarms. As mentioned above, an unskilled tanker will most likely fall for it, a skilled tanker will watch me jump around and maybe wait until I make a mistake and blap me, or move on and leave me useless to my team. This guy gets it. He is using all the tools in the box, and his brain, to engage an armored vehicle. I wish his attitude would rub off on the crybabies. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
Alena Ventrallis Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 2805	Posted - 2015.03.25 14:28:00 - [22] - Quote A tank with hardeners down should be relatively easy to solo for any equivalent AV. A tank with hardeners up should be a nigh unbreakable fortress that takes multiple people to kill. The issue now is that tanks can escape far too quickly and easily once their hardeners turn off. That's why we have balance problems. Imagine if a tank couldn't jet off over twice as fast as the fastest dropsuit. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
Tread Loudly 2 Ametat Security Amarr Empire 116	Posted - 2015.03.25 14:33:00 - [23] - Quote Bar Be wrote: Tread Loudly 2 wrote: From what I've been reading a lot of AV players think that an HAV should be easily solo'd. Why is that? I mean I've been wondering why people want tanks to be pieces of paper for a while. I may sound like a bit of a vehicle supremacist but I've but nearly all of my SP into them so that'd make sense. However I still have proto AV, I enjoy running in a dropsuit as well... I just don't complain when I can't solo a tank with my AV fit... Just curious, please post responses in a critical manner :D thank you and have a nice day If you are a bad driver I should be able to solo you. If you are a good driver, it should be hard to solo you. Why do tankers think they should be able to solo a whole team? It's not that we feel, that we should be able to solo an entire team, it's that we feel with tanks at their current stage, and their current pricing, that it should require good teamwork in order to take down a properly built tank with an experienced driver. All the while I don't care to much about scrubby drivers, as they would just be cannon fodder for such tank pilot. I Like Tanks, Nova Knives and MagSec SMG's.
Otoky Dead Man's Game RUST415 184	Posted - 2015.03.25 14:35:00 - [24] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: The balance is broken, when one tank can sit more or less stationary without any threat. I think this is mostly due to matchmaking. I hope, that in the future, scotty will always put at leas two proto AV capable guys in the opposite team of every proto tanker. Only then balance can happen. My games are spoiled by vehicles, as soon as I play an alt that has no proto AV. My main usually has no problem to at least scare away tanks, so that my teams infantry can go on and deal with the red teams infantry. But on my weak ass alts, it can be a very bad experience. Especcially if you have a squad of tankers on the enemy team. Tanks backing each other up, are a real headache for infantry, but as long as there are enough proto AV capable guys against them it's not too much of a problem. When it comes to AV proto isn't a big boost. If you are smart or/and experienced enough than advanced AV gear is perfectly enough in pub games. Its just dosn't worth the risk to lose the proto AV gear (ISK wise) because its not boost your performance enough.
Tread Loudly 2 Ametat Security Amarr Empire 116	Posted - 2015.03.25 14:43:00 - [25] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: A tank with hardeners down should be relatively easy to solo for any equivalent AV. A tank with hardeners up should be a nigh unbreakable fortress that takes multiple people to kill. The issue now is that tanks can escape far too quickly and easily once their hardeners turn off. That's why we have balance problems. Imagine if a tank couldn't jet off over twice as fast as the fastest dropsuit. That's why we need variations to the tanks added (A Destroyer, a middleman and a Juggernaut). Having just these three variants would make it a much more complex game and cause both AV and enemy tanks to adjust their strategy in order to combat said tanks. I Like Tanks, Nova Knives and MagSec SMG's.
Balistyc Farshot The Exemplars 119	Posted - 2015.03.25 14:48:00 - [26] - Quote I perform AV and we all know the best counter to a tank in the current meta is another tank. AV requires a whole team to focus fire down one clone in a tank and that ties down multiple clones to achieve that. AV needs a buff, but the right AV is what needs a buff. They keep playing with swarms which is the biggest problem. If they made Forge guns, plasma cannons, and Proxy REs the anti tank AV there would be 0 complaints from skilled tankers because they would understand that skill was required to take them down. Read the hulls post and you see they built tanks for tank to tank combat not tank to infantry. Most tankers are just now getting deep into the hardners and seeing that they are OP stacked on proto vehicles. Plus the blaster buff was not smart for AI. I agree with the 3 classes of tank post. I also have been pushing for solo tanks to lose control of their main cannon and become drivers if they are keeping tanks in their current armored LAV mode. They need a clear role in combat and a clear counter that is not another tank. Now to start shotgunning and REing again, everyone will love this play style. Face Palm!
Takahiro Kashuken Red Star. 4388	Posted - 2015.03.25 14:50:00 - [27] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: AV doesn't want to easily solo tanks they just want balance. Currently proto armor tanks are back to dominating infantry. Keep in mind that when you AV you have to deal with other infantry as well as the blaster turrets which insta pops anything. Even if you manage to get close to killing a tank, half the time they can just run away and leave you standing there like an idiot with nothing to do. My solution would be to slow tanks down so they can't easily run but also give them a huge buff in hp. I don't like this current tank hit and run philosophy. They want balance? HAH So much bull, they come out with' SP/ISK shouldn't be a balancing factor' as there excuse for a 5mil SP 60k AV fit being able to solo a 1.2mil ISK HAV fit with 30mil SP into it. Then it is always '1 player to 1 player' yet they stay quiet when i have 3 players in the HAV and 1 can solo it. Don't mention the swarm launcher and the various bugs with it in which makes it the OP weapon of the game for the last 3 years and still has not been fixed yet is still the most popular AV weapon. The JLAV still exists and can one shot any HAV no matter what build. AV nades have 1 more nade and lai dai will wreck in less than 3seconds and that is what a x3 skill and costs 20k? ADS got nerfed and swarms got buffed because they 'could fly away' from AV, it has no lock on warning, no countermeasures, not enough HP to tank mulitiple AV sources yet AV complained and yet again CCP catered to them and buffed the already easy mode swarms. AV doesn't have to deal with other infantry when they are on top of a tower or building just camping, commandos have a light weapon, AV nades require 1 nade slot, PLC can kill infantry and a FG can too. So much for being defenceless. A tank moves when it is being hit with too much AV, woe is me, #1st world problems. Tough. CCP has nerfed reps/boosters/base hp/extenders/plates/skills and skill bonuses which all lead to having a vehicle with less PG/CPU to fit on nerfed mods all because AV complain. All because AV cannot work together and are consistantly camping on a roof trying to solo something with swarms. Does AV really want to battle a slow moving behemoth HAV which may have 15k+ HP and enough slots to have decent fits and variety and be a moving fortress? No because it would be too hard for them, it would actually require teamwork, it would not be instant gratification. 61mil SP into vehicles and i could do more for cheaper if i was infantry. Disclaimer: The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514 CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
The Attorney General 2891	Posted - 2015.03.25 14:59:00 - [28] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: A tank with hardeners down should be relatively easy to solo for any equivalent AV. A tank with hardeners up should be a nigh unbreakable fortress that takes multiple people to kill. The issue now is that tanks can escape far too quickly and easily once their hardeners turn off. That's why we have balance problems. Imagine if a tank couldn't jet off over twice as fast as the fastest dropsuit. Imagine if infantry actually attacked from a good position? (Tank dies) Imagine if people who were trying to tackle a full tank actually brought an equal number of people? (Tank dies) The balance problems largely stem from the awful infantry practices in use, not the fact that a tank has a retreat option. Infantry can literally jump above the turret elevation of blaster tanks while they rain down av nades and plc shots, but the tank being somewhat able to retreat is the problem? You smokin'? Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
The Attorney General 2891	Posted - 2015.03.25 15:07:00 - [29] - Quote Balistyc Farshot wrote: I perform AV and we all know the best counter to a tank in the current meta is another tank. AV requires a whole team to focus fire down one clone in a tank and that ties down multiple clones to achieve that. AV needs a buff, but the right AV is what needs a buff. They keep playing with swarms which is the biggest problem. If they made Forge guns, plasma cannons, and Proxy REs the anti tank AV there would be 0 complaints from skilled tankers because they would understand that skill was required to take them down. Read the hulls post and you see they built tanks for tank to tank combat not tank to infantry. Most tankers are just now getting deep into the hardners and seeing that they are OP stacked on proto vehicles. Plus the blaster buff was not smart for AI. I agree with the 3 classes of tank post. I also have been pushing for solo tanks to lose control of their main cannon and become drivers if they are keeping tanks in their current armored LAV mode. They need a clear role in combat and a clear counter that is not another tank. AV does not require a whole team to focus fire. A single player, in a BPO suit, in a BPO LAV, with just the bare minimum of SP into demolitions can destroy any tank by touching it. As long as the don't drive right at the tank, they don't even have to tank the LAV at all. A single player, using those same demolitions skills can lay a set of proxy mines, carry a PLC and some AV nades and destroy a tank. This myth that you need a team of AV to drop a tank is perpetuated by bad players who refuse to even consider the idea that you might actually have to not suck to tackle a tank by yourself. But no, lets cater to the lowest common denominator and make it even easier for BPO suits with standard weapons to drop tanks. The scale of the tank doesn't matter, because they don't get any stronger as they go up in tier, so if you can kill a standard maddie, you can kill all tanks. AV needs a buff? No, av players need some understanding that I as a tanker am working very hard to not get into their wheelhouse, while still needing to be map away enough to not get JLAV'd while keeping my eyes peeled for dropships to make sure I have enough time to get to cover if I need to, while also making sure that I am actually being productive for my team. All the AV has to do, in their mind, is spawn in an AV suit and I should explode. Mr. Hybrid Vayu.
SoLJae Society of Light 689	Posted - 2015.03.25 15:08:00 - [30] - Quote The Attorney General wrote: Imagine if infantry actually attacked from a good position? (Tank dies) Imagine if people who were trying to tackle a full tank actually brought an equal number of people? (Tank dies) The balance problems largely stem from the awful infantry practices in use, not the fact that a tank has a retreat option. Infantry can literally jump above the turret elevation of blaster tanks while they rain down av nades and plc shots, but the tank being somewhat able to retreat is the problem? You smokin'? Wow. They DO all comeback to DUST ;-) You still Zion, A G? ...and I agree with your assessment. Proper deployment of infantry AV can effectively counter tank deployments. +1



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