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LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1900	Posted - 2015.02.06 00:55:00 - [1] - Quote OK. So now I have to put it out there. Sorry Amarr bros. When the rail rifle had epic range while still being good up close, it was deemed OP and damage application up close was nerfed. Right now, with the regular Scrambler rifle you have the same deal. It is literally a long range rifle with a shotgun attachment that can be used by holding R1. It is way too versatile for a weapon that can shoot that far and do that much damage with that high of a RoF. Now, the Laser Rifle is pretty balanced because of one mechanic that makes it unusable up close: a damage penalty up close. Why doesn't the normal Scrambler variant have this? I mean, its not like there isn't an Assault variant that is supposed to fill its CQC role. So why not introduce a damage scalar? TL;DR: introduce damage penalty up close for ScR Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Mortishai Belmont G.L.O.R.Y General Tso's Alliance 438	Posted - 2015.02.06 00:57:00 - [2] - Quote Everything kills everything in 5 seconds or less if your aim is good. G.L.O.R.Y Soldier, I'm that Amarr heavy you warn your team about <3 -Heavy/Logi/Assault/Scout-
Apocalyptic Destroyer KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 282	Posted - 2015.02.06 00:59:00 - [3] - Quote There's nothing wrong with it. They just need to Nerf the RoF True Amarr In Disguise Pain is weakness leaving the body Proto : ADS Pilot, Tanker Ak.0 : Mando, Scout, Assault
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1900	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:00:00 - [4] - Quote Mortishai Belmont wrote: Everything kills everything in 5 seconds or less if your aim is good. Yeah, but that's not the point. The point is range effectivity, it is good nearly anywhere, even up close. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 28	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:02:00 - [5] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: OK. So now I have to put it out there. Sorry Amarr bros. When the rail rifle had epic range while still being good up close, it was deemed OP and damage application up close was nerfed. Right now, with the regular Scrambler rifle you have the same deal. It is literally a long range rifle with a shotgun attachment that can be used by holding R1. It is way too versatile for a weapon that can shoot that far and do that much damage with that high of a RoF. Now, the Laser Rifle is pretty balanced because of one mechanic that makes it unusable up close: a damage penalty up close. Why doesn't the normal Scrambler variant have this? I mean, its not like there isn't an Assault variant that is supposed to fill its CQC role. So why not introduce a damage scalar? TL;DR: introduce damage penalty up close for ScR from someone that has used both for an extensive amount of time I approve of this message the rr needs less kick and the scr needs cqc nerf
Protocake JR Negative-Feedback. 1683	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:03:00 - [6] - Quote Oh wow, this thread again.
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1900	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:04:00 - [7] - Quote Protocake JR wrote: Oh wow, this thread again. Lol, cept this time it has actual rational. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Atiim Titans of Phoenix 15480	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:09:00 - [8] - Quote CCP Rattati says that its imbalanced but won't make changes until more players use it. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
ADS IS OP Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 10	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:09:00 - [9] - Quote Protocake JR wrote: Oh wow, this thread again. next thread is about keeping dumb euro player in their own damn server so they not dodge bullets
Vitharr Foebane Shining Flame Amarr Empire 2239	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:12:00 - [10] - Quote 1. RR doesn't explode in your face 2. AScR is one of if not the worst gun in the game 3. charge shot does less then half the damage of a SG while costing over 2/3 of over heat gauge 4. while ScR is one the best 1v1 guns in the game over heat limits it's group fighting capabilities Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r

Vitharr Foebane Shining Flame Amarr Empire 2239	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:13:00 - [11] - Quote Atiim wrote: CCP Rattati says that its imbalanced but won't make changes until more players use it. he said most efficient if I'm not mistaken Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1900	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:20:00 - [12] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: 1. RR doesn't explode in your face 2. AScR is one of if not the worst gun in the game 3. charge shot does less then half the damage of a SG while costing over 2/3 of over heat gauge 4. while ScR is one the best 1v1 guns in the game over heat limits it's group fighting capabilities Hmmm... Interesting points, albeight a bit off. Charge doesn't cost over 2/3, but I'll take it that it does cost quite a bit. AScR actually is not that bad anymore, but it is missing something. Once it is buffed a bit, maybe this proposal will be more acceptable. While the charge is less than a shotgun blast, what about the follow up shots? Yes, the RR doesn't blow up in your face, but the damage application is very unreliable for the range it is supposed to exceed in. Unrelated points? Maybe. But it is all about balance. The RR can't really fight off groups either, it's like an SR, it is only annoying and good for pinging those out in the open. (All points assuming normal variant) All in all, I don't want an all out Nerf on the ScR, just want it (normal variant) to be more restricted on where it is supposed to be best at. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Atiim Titans of Phoenix 15480	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:21:00 - [13] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Atiim wrote: CCP Rattati says that its imbalanced but won't make changes until more players use it. he said most efficient if I'm not mistaken Most efficient typically means imbalanced, and he said that if more people use the SCR it will get "looked at". Given how we're not toddlers we can both come to the logical conclusion that when he says looked at, he means more than simply glancing at it with a menacing stare. For those who haven't seen: CCP Rattati wrote: Scrambler Rifle is the most efficient rifle of them all. That's a fact. However, due to heat mechanism and most likely the need to skill Amarr Dropsuits to maximize its potential, it is not dominant in Kills compared to other rifles. If I see a migration of the playerbase over to SCR, so that Kills and efficiency become the highest, it will get looked at The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Darken-Soul BIG BAD W0LVES 1926	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:23:00 - [14] - Quote Atiim wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: Atiim wrote: CCP Rattati says that its imbalanced but won't make changes until more players use it. he said most efficient if I'm not mistaken Most efficient typically means imbalanced, and he said that if more people use the SCR it will get "looked at". Given how we're not toddlers we can both come to the logical conclusion that when he says looked at, he means more than simply glancing at it with a menacing stare. For those who haven't seen: CCP Rattati wrote: Scrambler Rifle is the most efficient rifle of them all. That's a fact. However, due to heat mechanism and most likely the need to skill Amarr Dropsuits to maximize its potential, it is not dominant in Kills compared to other rifles. If I see a migration of the playerbase over to SCR, so that Kills and efficiency become the highest, it will get looked at Lots of luck. I love facing off against fellow ScR users. 1 in 10 are good. The rest die while overheated Who wants some?
Atiim Titans of Phoenix 15480	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:24:00 - [15] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: 1. RR doesn't explode in your face 2. AScR is one of if not the worst gun in the game 3. charge shot does less then half the damage of a SG while costing over 2/3 of over heat gauge 4. while ScR is one the best 1v1 guns in the game over heat limits it's group fighting capabilities 1. SCR doesn't either unless you're terrible with it or facing a Senitnel, in which case: "GG see you next spawn" 2. Not even remotely. 3. The simple solution is to not use the charge shot 4. Only gun in DUST that lets you win a 2v1 against something other than scrubs is the HMG The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Dengru Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 493	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:32:00 - [16] - Quote You can't balance weapons by arbitrary damage drop-offs when maps force you into close to medium range engagements (>^_^)><(^.^<)
SgtMajSquish MLBJ Consolidated Dust 323	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:36:00 - [17] - Quote SCR penalty is -80% damage to armor making it rather difficult to finish off armor tanked enemies before it overheats Rise and shine CCP. It's time to implement ping based match making.
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1900	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:38:00 - [18] - Quote Dengru wrote: You can't balance weapons by arbitrary damage drop-offs when maps force you into close to medium range engagements So then get rid of the Laser Rifle's. It is practically useless because of it's falloff in close range maps. And it's arbitrary. LogicGäó Not only that, you missed my point. The reason nobody uses the AScR is not because it is terrible, it is just because the regular ScR is just better, so there is no point. That, and it costs more. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood RISE of LEGION 87	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:38:00 - [19] - Quote A thought. RR kick == ScR heat RR kick is like a mule == ScR over heat RR stop and refire charge == ScR cool down Scr o.h damage != RR kick (w/o refire) ScR small kick != RR larger clip Remember, the RR's mule kick + extended charge time pushes it out of CQC. what pushes the ScR out if CQC? Like i said, just a thought. Entering the void and becoming wind with my repbus.
SgtMajSquish MLBJ Consolidated Dust 323	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:40:00 - [20] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Dengru wrote: You can't balance weapons by arbitrary damage drop-offs when maps force you into close to medium range engagements So then get rid of the Laser Rifle's. It is practically useless because of it's falloff in close range maps. And it's arbitrary. LogicGäó Not only that, you missed my point. The reason nobody uses the AScR is not because it is terrible, it is just because the regular ScR is just better, so there is no point. That, and it costs more. Dont they have a standard AScR that costs the same as the ScR now? Rise and shine CCP. It's time to implement ping based match making.

LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1901	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:41:00 - [21] - Quote SgtMajSquish MLBJ wrote: SCR penalty is -80% damage to armor making it rather difficult to finish off armor tanked enemies before it overheats Yes, and is that not how it should be? If the ScR was forced to actually play smart, you wouldn't have to worry about overheating. Overheating is only a problem when you can be killed by the armor tanker, which means you have to be up close, in which case you shouldn't win with the regular ScR, because the AR should beat you there. I don't get why people want the ScR to finish everything in one OH... Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1901	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:43:00 - [22] - Quote SgtMajSquish MLBJ wrote: Dont they have a standard AScR that costs the same as the ScR now? That's not the important point, but whatever. No I don't think so. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Zindorak Nyain Chan 1692	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:55:00 - [23] - Quote RR maybe nerfed now but ARR is still a monster and better than ScR. Why do you think most gk.0's,ak.0's and even some mk.0 assaults use it. Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Give me da iskiez Gk0 Scout yay :)
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1903	Posted - 2015.02.06 01:57:00 - [24] - Quote Zindorak wrote: RR maybe nerfed now but ARR is still a monster and better than ScR. Why do you think most gk.0's,ak.0's and even some mk.0 assaults use it. Dunno. Maybe the same reason I see a lot of gk.0's, mk.0's, and ck.0's using g the ScR. Here's to anecdotal evidence, no? Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Vitharr Foebane Shining Flame Amarr Empire 2239	Posted - 2015.02.06 02:00:00 - [25] - Quote Atiim wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: 1. RR doesn't explode in your face 2. AScR is one of if not the worst gun in the game 3. charge shot does less then half the damage of a SG while costing over 2/3 of over heat gauge 4. while ScR is one the best 1v1 guns in the game over heat limits it's group fighting capabilities 1. SCR doesn't either unless you're terrible with it or facing a Senitnel, in which case: "GG see you next spawn" 2. Not even remotely. 3. The simple solution is to not use the charge shot 4. Only gun in DUST that lets you win a 2v1 against something other than scrubs is the HMG 1. it's not that binary and you know it =.= 2. show me a worse primary... 3. why should a weapon's primary mechanic be ignored 4. CR, ACR, RR, ARR, AR, TAR, and BAR are all great at multi-enemy engagements Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 6412	Posted - 2015.02.06 02:01:00 - [26] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: TL;DR: introduce damage penalty up close for ScR Agreed with sentiment and solution. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1904	Posted - 2015.02.06 02:03:00 - [27] - Quote Gosh darnit you Amarr scrubs... What I propose is not a direct nerf... If you're using it at it's intended range. To go along with this change, the AScR should be buffed to make up for the normal variant's newly imposed shortcoming. That is the point of variants, no? Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood RISE of LEGION 88	Posted - 2015.02.06 02:04:00 - [28] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: 2. show me a worse primary... Plasma Cann in untrained/unskilled hands. We all know it's true. Entering the void and becoming wind with my repbus.
Vitharr Foebane Shining Flame Amarr Empire 2239	Posted - 2015.02.06 02:06:00 - [29] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: SgtMajSquish MLBJ wrote: SCR penalty is -80% damage to armor making it rather difficult to finish off armor tanked enemies before it overheats Yes, and is that not how it should be? If the ScR was forced to actually play smart, you wouldn't have to worry about overheating. Overheating is only a problem when you can be killed by the armor tanker, which means you have to be up close, in which case you shouldn't win with the regular ScR, because the AR should beat you there. I don't get why people want the ScR to finish everything in one OH... we don't we do want our MAIN FRONTLINE rifle to work. unlike you other races we don't have weapon diversity and what little we do have d*mn well better be functional Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars RISE of LEGION 213	Posted - 2015.02.06 02:07:00 - [30] - Quote The scrambler has much less optimal and effective range than the rail rifle thus it needs to have much better ability up close. Its higher fitting cost and lower damage per overheat compared to the assault rifle also creates the need for the scrambler to be kind of good at 25m to 60m engagements. At engagements of 15m to 25m the scrambler still needs to aim down sights and move much slower to attempt to hit targets most of the time. Other guns like the breach assault rifle and combat rifle can hipfire instead with very good accuracy at 15 to 25m engagements while moving much faster allowing them to comtrol range and dodge a few bullets. The charge shot of the scrambler (when it is used) reduces the overall damage per overheat compared to firing 22 shots with an amarr assault. The charge shot does roughly 200 damage unmodified by damage profile. The std shotgun does roughly 480 damage unmodified by its damage profile. The Aim Down Sights recoil of the scrambler rifle prevents it from quickly firing many bullets accurately against enemies that are slightly peeking out of cover and firing at you (at 40m to 70m engagements). This lowers the damage per overheat and dps of the scrambler rifle a lot. I am referring to cover that hides the lower halve of the enemy and may also only expose only one shoulder of the enemy if the cover is shaped like a triangle of boxes. The breach assault rifle, the burst assault rifle and regular assault rifle does not have large recoil problems. The cool down time of the scrambler rifle acts like a reload. But it takes 6 seconds to cool down, instead of 3 seconds of reloading like the assault rifles and combat rifles. Firing at 1 brick tanked enemy like a std amarr assault or gallente assault leaves you very vulnerable with a scrambler rifle. Because it takes 6 seconds to cooldown, an observing enemy might ambush you while you are vulnerable, forcing you to switch to a sidearm for 3 seconds at minimum. That is plenty of time for a skilled person to kill an amarr assault suit with a HMG or ACR etc. Additionally the higher fitting costs of the scrambler rifle hinders a suits ability to fit good sidearms on top of good modules. This makes me very confident against scrambler rifle users when I ambush them with a assault suit while using 1 proto profile dampener. (they would need 2 proto precision enhancers to see me coming, which would severely hurt there dps and damage per overheat.)

Vitharr Foebane Shining Flame Amarr Empire 2239	Posted - 2015.02.06 02:10:00 - [31] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: LUGMOS wrote: TL;DR: introduce damage penalty up close for ScR Agreed with sentiment and solution. why, so SG scouts have one less counter Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood RISE of LEGION 88	Posted - 2015.02.06 02:12:00 - [32] - Quote Isn't ScR's cooldown and O.H damage less than a LR? Just wondering Entering the void and becoming wind with my repbus.
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1904	Posted - 2015.02.06 02:12:00 - [33] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: LUGMOS wrote: SgtMajSquish MLBJ wrote: SCR penalty is -80% damage to armor making it rather difficult to finish off armor tanked enemies before it overheats Yes, and is that not how it should be? If the ScR was forced to actually play smart, you wouldn't have to worry about overheating. Overheating is only a problem when you can be killed by the armor tanker, which means you have to be up close, in which case you shouldn't win with the regular ScR, because the AR should beat you there. I don't get why people want the ScR to finish everything in one OH... we don't we do want our MAIN FRONTLINE rifle to work. unlike you other races we don't have weapon diversity and what little we do have dmn well better be functional No diversity in primary weapons? Lol, you're kidding right? Amarr: 1. Scrambler -Regular -Assault 2. Laser Rifle Caldari: 1. Rail Rifle: -Regular -Assault 2. Sniper Rifle Main battle rifle: which is better? Regular Rail Rifle or regular Scrambler Rifle? And I mean for general use. I won't mention the AR, because, well you know why. Combat Rifle is the only regular variant that is comparably as effective for general use. Yeah, I think your main battle rifle is quite fine compared to other races. Official QuafeGäó Advocate* Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars RISE of LEGION 213	Posted - 2015.02.06 02:13:00 - [34] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: SgtMajSquish MLBJ wrote: SCR penalty is -80% damage to armor making it rather difficult to finish off armor tanked enemies before it overheats Yes, and is that not how it should be? If the ScR was forced to actually play smart, you wouldn't have to worry about overheating. Overheating is only a problem when you can be killed by the armor tanker, which means you have to be up close, in which case you shouldn't win with the regular ScR, because the AR should beat you there. I don't get why people want the ScR to finish everything in one OH... Please explain that a little better, I cant seem to make proper sense of what you are telling me? How does the scrabler rifle kill everything in one burst of bullets when heavy suits can easily get more hp than the damage per overheat of the scrambler rifle. std amarr heavy suits can use 3 proto dampeners so that the amarr assault users are required to use 2 proto precision enhancers in order to see the heavy suit coming. That reduces the potential dps and damage per overheat of the scrambler rifle because they are not using damage modules then.
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood RISE of LEGION 88	Posted - 2015.02.06 02:21:00 - [35] - Quote WeapondigitX V7 wrote: LUGMOS wrote: SgtMajSquish MLBJ wrote: SCR penalty is -80% damage to armor making it rather difficult to finish off armor tanked enemies before it overheats Yes, and is that not how it should be? If the ScR was forced to actually play smart, you wouldn't have to worry about overheating. Overheating is only a problem when you can be killed by the armor tanker, which means you have to be up close, in which case you shouldn't win with the regular ScR, because the AR should beat you there. I don't get why people want the ScR to finish everything in one OH... Please explain that a little better, I cant seem to make proper sense of what you are telling me? How does the scrabler rifle kill everything in one burst of bullets when heavy suits can easily get more hp than the damage per overheat of the scrambler rifle. std amarr heavy suits can use 3 proto dampeners so that the amarr assault users are required to use 2 proto precision enhancers in order to see the heavy suit coming. That reduces the potential dps and damage per overheat of the scrambler rifle because they are not using damage modules then. What i think LUGMOS is saying is "you fire straight to OH, no temperature control but expect to be able to kill just like that." Now, linking to RR kick = ScR O.H, the RR cannot kill "easily" by the mule kick around 10-15 rounds. Link that to the ScR. The ScR doesnt have the "mule" as early as the RR, which people said "no RR here" and the penalty was aquired Hopefully i understood right. Entering the void and becoming wind with my repbus.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 637	Posted - 2015.02.06 02:25:00 - [36] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Protocake JR wrote: Oh wow, this thread again. Lol, cept this time it has actual rational. OP posts about rational OP neglects to include all facts about SCR in his rational context lost
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1904	Posted - 2015.02.06 02:33:00 - [37] - Quote WeapondigitX V7 wrote: The scrambler has much less optimal and effective range than the rail rifle thus it needs to have much better ability up close. Its higher fitting cost and lower damage per overheat compared to the assault rifle also creates the need for the scrambler to be kind of good at 25m to 60m engagements. At engagements of 15m to 25m the scrambler still needs to aim down sights and move much slower to attempt to hit targets most of the time. Other guns like the breach assault rifle and combat rifle can hipfire instead with very good accuracy at 15 to 25m engagements while moving much faster allowing them to comtrol range and dodge a few bullets. The charge shot of the scrambler (when it is used) reduces the overall damage per overheat compared to firing 22 shots with an amarr assault. The charge shot does roughly 200 damage unmodified by damage profile. The std shotgun does roughly 480 damage unmodified by its damage profile. The Aim Down Sights recoil of the scrambler rifle prevents it from quickly firing many bullets accurately against enemies that are slightly peeking out of cover and firing at you (at 40m to 70m engagements). This lowers the damage per overheat and dps of the scrambler rifle a lot. I am referring to cover that hides the lower halve of the enemy and may also only expose only one shoulder of the enemy if the cover is shaped like a triangle of boxes. The breach assault rifle, the burst assault rifle and regular assault rifle does not have large recoil problems. The cool down time of the scrambler rifle acts like a reload. But it takes 6 seconds to cool down, instead of 3 seconds of reloading like the assault rifles and combat rifles. Firing at 1 brick tanked enemy like a std amarr assault or gallente assault leaves you very vulnerable with a scrambler rifle. Because it takes 6 seconds to cooldown, an observing enemy might ambush you while you are vulnerable, forcing you to switch to a sidearm for 3 seconds at minimum. That is plenty of time for a skilled person to kill an amarr assault suit with a HMG or ACR etc. Additionally the higher fitting costs of the scrambler rifle hinders a suits ability to fit good sidearms on top of good modules. This makes me very confident against scrambler rifle users when I ambush them with a assault suit while using 1 proto profile dampener. (they would need 2 proto precision enhancers to see me coming, which would severely hurt there dps and damage per overheat.) Good points, now my turn to rebute. Having less long range ability than the Rail Rifle does not make it entitled to better CQC abilities. I'll just ignore this point for the most part since there is not much backing it. Also, you say that it needs to be good from 25m-60m. That's fine, except as of now, it is stepping on the AR's shoes in the AR's own range, as it is arguably more effective than the AR due to more reliable damage application, even at hipfire. The AR needs to ADS from 20m out, whereas the ScR's tight hipfire allows it to shoot farther without having to ADS. I don't know what you are talking about with the 15-25 the ScR has to hipfire, and that the AR is at a disadvantage. This is bad, because the ScR should be at a clear disadvantage at that range. OK, the point with the under barrel shotgun was a hyperbole, so take it with a grain of salt. Also, with the unreliable damage application after some shots, it won't matter if you're using it in that range. The RR is sooo much worse at that range because of it's ridiculous sight that shakes uncontrollably while firing. The ScRis much better at that range than the RR, granted it is within 70 meters. Anything else at that range just doesn't compete, including the breach AR, burst AR and TAC AR. Also, it does not take 6 seconds for the ScR's seizure to end. It is 1 second longer than a reload at most. Also, you shouldnt have to be taking on multiple enemies in one OH. You are asking to die and should. Also, the overheat can be managed by just switching to a sidearm. So there's that. And the higher fitting costs is not that bad, granted I am using an Amarr Assault, but I can still fit Pro mods and weapons. Also, even if the sidearm is not PRO, is it really that much of a hindrance? And for the last bit, good for you. If you ambushed them, they should die, regardless of what weapon you are using. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1904	Posted - 2015.02.06 02:35:00 - [38] - Quote Shamarskii Simon wrote: What i think LUGMOS is saying is "you fire straight to OH, no temperature control but expect to be able to kill just like that." Now, linking to RR kick = ScR O.H, the RR cannot kill "easily" by the mule kick around 10-15 rounds. Link that to the ScR. The ScR doesnt have the "mule" as early as the RR, which people said "no RR here" and the penalty was aquired Hopefully i understood right. Right on the nose. And @ Weapondigit, who the heck would use dampeners on a heavy frame? For legitimate use too... Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1904	Posted - 2015.02.06 02:36:00 - [39] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: LUGMOS wrote: Protocake JR wrote: Oh wow, this thread again. Lol, cept this time it has actual rational. OP posts about rational OP neglects to include all facts about SCR in his rational context lost Do you think rifles should be more or less confined to certain ranges? Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
All Gucci T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K General Tso's Alliance 187	Posted - 2015.02.06 02:45:00 - [40] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Protocake JR wrote: Oh wow, this thread again. Lol, cept this time it has actual rational. why is it rational? what makes you so special that your opinion is considered a fact? Director / Slayer / Emperor

All Gucci T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K General Tso's Alliance 187	Posted - 2015.02.06 02:47:00 - [41] - Quote Vitharr Foebane wrote: Atiim wrote: CCP Rattati says that its imbalanced but won't make changes until more players use it. he said most efficient if I'm not mistaken you aren't mistaken that's common cry baby exaggeration Director / Slayer / Emperor
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 638	Posted - 2015.02.06 02:52:00 - [42] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Imp Smash wrote: LUGMOS wrote: Protocake JR wrote: Oh wow, this thread again. Lol, cept this time it has actual rational. OP posts about rational OP neglects to include all facts about SCR in his rational context lost Do you think rifles should be more or less confined to certain ranges? As far as relative power goes yes. If the SCR is super freaking good at CQC while other long range rifles are not then yes I agree it should not be. However, no evidence has been presented to say that this is the case. No rationale was given that this is the case. The topic was discussed incompletely -- with many parts completely left out. So, at least for now, y'all are just bitching like a 5 year old who skinned their knee. Waaaahhhh! Compare the current long range abilities of the RR to the SCR (since these are the two weapons you are comparing), the mid range, short range, and CQC abilities. Then you may go from (Waaaaahhhh!) to (insert excellent point followed by consensus and meaningful change here) I await your explanation.
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1906	Posted - 2015.02.06 02:57:00 - [43] - Quote All Gucci wrote: LUGMOS wrote: Protocake JR wrote: Oh wow, this thread again. Lol, cept this time it has actual rational. why is it rational? what makes you so special that your opinion is considered a fact? It's not opinion... There is no range weakness for the Scrambler Rifle. It is good up close, mid range, and long range, and equally so. Damage application is reliable throughout, and not as difficult as say the Rail Rifle, where the dispersion and kick impair its long range ability. The ScR has very little kick and no dispersion. These are facts, and they were stated. The change I suggest isn't even a hard Nerf to it's intended use in it's intended range, it was never meant to compete up close with ARs or assault variants. That being said, I even called for a buff for the Assault ScR to make up for the normal ScR's range weakness... I don't understand your state of mind. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
All Gucci T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K General Tso's Alliance 187	Posted - 2015.02.06 03:05:00 - [44] - Quote Atiim wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: 1. RR doesn't explode in your face 2. AScR is one of if not the worst gun in the game 3. charge shot does less then half the damage of a SG while costing over 2/3 of over heat gauge 4. while ScR is one the best 1v1 guns in the game over heat limits it's group fighting capabilities 1. SCR doesn't either unless you're terrible with it or facing a Senitnel, in which case: "GG see you next spawn" 2. Not even remotely. 3. The simple solution is to not use the charge shot 4. Only gun in DUST that lets you win a 2v1 against something other than scrubs is the HMG 1. I am a ScR black belt and even I cant just ignore an over heat.... 2.everyone knows the AScR is a joke lol 3. isnt what you ScR qqer complain about is us spamming the trigger? but when we charge shot you want to cry about that to.... should we just sit there and let you shoot? 4.you can 2v1 anybody, with any weapon, and win... lol if that is outside of your capability then that sucks for you Director / Slayer / Emperor
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1907	Posted - 2015.02.06 03:06:00 - [45] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Compare the current long range abilities of the RR to the SCR (since these are the two weapons you are comparing), the mid range, short range, and CQC abilities. Then you may go from (Waaaaahhhh!) to (insert excellent point followed by consensus and meaningful change here) Are you ******* kidding me? Can you not read? It may not be in the OP, but I explain it farther in the thread, if you so care about balance, then you should go ahead and read the entirety of the thread. But just for you, here I go: Rail Rifle vs ScR: Assuming Normal Variant The ScR has a tighter field of dispersion than the Scrambler Rifle. This already means more accuracy. On top of that, the ScR has relatively little to no kick, so the reticle remains constant, even in hipfire. The Rail Rifle, on the other hand, has much kick and recoil, more so than the ScR, even in ADS. That is all you get in this post, but even just with this, a reduction to CQC effectivity is just, be it more dispersion, or more hipfire kick, or as suggested, a mere efficiency penalty up close. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3131	Posted - 2015.02.06 03:06:00 - [46] - Quote I don't really have an issue with the scrambler rifle.... Sure it wrecks shield tanks...as it should. It has the single shot and overheat mechanics that both require skill to overcome....which balances the weapon in my eyes. So when I get killed by someone using it, it is generally the opponents skill that makes the difference. So I just tip my hat to my opponent when it happens. But I do have a big issue with its use with turbo controllers in CQC, where it often feels like it is the controller rather than skill that gives it an edge, and I wish CCP would do something with its RoF to solve this imbalance.
All Gucci T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K General Tso's Alliance 187	Posted - 2015.02.06 03:12:00 - [47] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: SgtMajSquish MLBJ wrote: SCR penalty is -80% damage to armor making it rather difficult to finish off armor tanked enemies before it overheats Yes, and is that not how it should be? If the ScR was forced to actually play smart, you wouldn't have to worry about overheating. Overheating is only a problem when you can be killed by the armor tanker, which means you have to be up close, in which case you shouldn't win with the regular ScR, because the AR should beat you there. I don't get why people want the ScR to finish everything in one OH... that's where you have things mess up lmao you assume it should go down like rock paper scissors but its a fps so no..... Director / Slayer / Emperor
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1909	Posted - 2015.02.06 03:21:00 - [48] - Quote All Gucci wrote: LUGMOS wrote: SgtMajSquish MLBJ wrote: SCR penalty is -80% damage to armor making it rather difficult to finish off armor tanked enemies before it overheats Yes, and is that not how it should be? If the ScR was forced to actually play smart, you wouldn't have to worry about overheating. Overheating is only a problem when you can be killed by the armor tanker, which means you have to be up close, in which case you shouldn't win with the regular ScR, because the AR should beat you there. I don't get why people want the ScR to finish everything in one OH... that's where you have things mess up lmao you assume it should go down like rock paper scissors but its a fps so no..... K then. Go play CoD, where weapon choice doesn't matter as everything kills everything NP... It should go down rock paper scissors style. Granted, it won't always, but the counter to a long range weapon should be taking it in CQC with a CQC weapon. What? You think shotguns are scrubby? Dang, guess I'll have to use something that isn't CQC. Oh yeah the AR. What? I can't use that either? Because it shouldn't be rock paper scissors? Well what do I use? HMG??? Even scrubbier? Dang. Guess the only (acceptable) counter is using a ScR and outgunning you. Seems legit. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 638	Posted - 2015.02.06 03:21:00 - [49] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Compare the current long range abilities of the RR to the SCR (since these are the two weapons you are comparing), the mid range, short range, and CQC abilities. Then you may go from (Waaaaahhhh!) to (insert excellent point followed by consensus and meaningful change here) Are you ***** kidding me? Can you not read? It may not be in the OP, but I explain it farther in the thread, if you so care about balance, then you should go ahead and read the entirety of the thread. But just for you, here I go: Rail Rifle vs ScR: Assuming Normal Variant The ScR has a tighter field of dispersion than the Scrambler Rifle. This already means more accuracy. On top of that, the ScR has relatively little to no kick, so the reticle remains constant, even in hipfire. The Rail Rifle, on the other hand, has much kick and recoil, more so than the ScR, even in ADS. That is all you get in this post, but even just with this, a reduction to CQC effectivity is just, be it more dispersion, or more hipfire kick, or as suggested, a mere efficiency penalty up close. No, I am not "***** kidding" you as you say. The thread has twisted and turned -- but all I see are people making assertions and no logic or explanation backing it up. 'this gun is good here. this one sucks' is just an opinion. One supported by, at best, anecdotal evidence (assuming there is any support for said assertion at ALL.) Here is an example of it: (mid edit.)
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1910	Posted - 2015.02.06 03:46:00 - [50] - Quote Alright, you got me. I do not have 100% verifiable proof as of now, and won't until this weekend. Then we can have a discussion. However, this has little to do with my original assertion that the ScR is too good up close, damage wise. It still needs a bit of a tone down. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V

Alena Ventrallis Intara Direct Action Caldari State 2543	Posted - 2015.02.06 03:57:00 - [51] - Quote Can someone name me an ScR fit that doesn't use AmAssault? Anyone? You get about 15 shots before overheat. That's 1072.5 damage from a Viziam before is seizes on you. A Duvolle can put out 2380 damage before a reload. That's over twice the damage with no overheat and minimal kick. The ScR should absolutely be good in CQC and at range. No generalist rifle should perform poorly in CQC or at its optimal. And the trade-off for that high burst damage is a punishing seize, that no other rifle has. So players are rewarded for either killing their foe before the overheat or flipping to their sidearm to finish the job. The only problem with it is it's effectiveness versus shields, and I already proposed a solution to that. It does exactly what it should do, with the heat being the best balancing factor. Think about it. If it was really that OP, we'd see them everywhere all the time. We don't because that massive DPS comes at a price, and there are few who can learn how to use it properly. Those that do learn are to be feared, but by no means can you just run around willy nilly spraying lasers everywhere and expect to come out on top. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1911	Posted - 2015.02.06 04:04:00 - [52] - Quote OK. At this point, I just want the AScR to be buffed to compete with the BK, ARR, and AR. Also, I guess what makes the CR and ScR better than the AR and the RR is that they are generalist rifles, as in they cover a very nice swath of range, whereas the AR and RR are confined to their own area. So I'll pose this question: If the CR and ScR are generalist rifles, and good in a large area, should the more confined rifles be indisputably better than the generalist rifles in their respective ranges? For example, should the AR be the undisputable CQC king, along with the BK, HMG, and ARR? Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Kira Lannister Ancient Exiles. 2606	Posted - 2015.02.06 04:08:00 - [53] - Quote Did the scrambler touch your eggs? See what I did there? No one will nerf our god rifle. Sorry bruh. "The Ancient Templars will guard fearlessly the people, the land and the heavens of the empire." Book of Exiles 1:3
xavier zor Rogue Instincts 569	Posted - 2015.02.06 04:09:00 - [54] - Quote The scrambler rifle is in a great place now. It melt's shield-tanking suits just like the CR melt' armor-tanking suits. The CR is the king of CQC in armor-profile weapons and the laser-rifle is king of CQC in shield-profile weapons, SR comes a close 2nd. The CR does over 111 damage/burst to armor, and doesn't do to bat against shield suits using 2 damage mods, prof. 5 The SR does 108/shot to shields, and does just over 66 damage/shot to armor using 2 damage mods. What makes the SR balanced is the heat mechanic, and sieze duration that the CR does not have. A gallente assault with a CR counter's an amarr assault with a SR Atiim wrote: CCP Rattati says that its imbalanced but won't make changes until more players use it. He does not say this He says that if it players start to use this more, and more kills are registered with it then it will get looked at. looking for PC corporation also looking for lonely heavies to knife >:) heavies looking for me
xavier zor Rogue Instincts 569	Posted - 2015.02.06 04:12:00 - [55] - Quote Atiim wrote: Vitharr Foebane wrote: 1. RR doesn't explode in your face 2. AScR is one of if not the worst gun in the game 3. charge shot does less then half the damage of a SG while costing over 2/3 of over heat gauge 4. while ScR is one the best 1v1 guns in the game over heat limits it's group fighting capabilities 1. SCR doesn't either unless you're terrible with it or facing a Senitnel, in which case: "GG see you next spawn" 2. Not even remotely. 3. The simple solution is to not use the charge shot 4. Only gun in DUST that lets you win a 2v1 against something other than scrubs is the HMG 1: True 2: True 3: Just use the amarr assault 4: No, nova knives, shotguns, tanks, ADS, LAV's, remote explosives, double bolt-pistol headshots and grenades count looking for PC corporation also looking for lonely heavies to knife >:) heavies looking for me
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1911	Posted - 2015.02.06 04:31:00 - [56] - Quote xavier zor wrote: The scrambler rifle is in a great place now. It melt's shield-tanking suits just like the CR melt' armor-tanking suits. The CR is the king of CQC in armor-profile weapons and the laser-rifle is king of CQC in shield-profile weapons, SR comes a close 2nd. The CR does over 111 damage/burst to armor, and doesn't do to bat against shield suits using 2 damage mods, prof. 5 The SR does 108/shot to shields, and does just over 66 damage/shot to armor using 2 damage mods. What makes the SR balanced is the heat mechanic, and sieze duration that the CR does not have. A gallente assault with a CR counter's an amarr assault with a SR Atiim wrote: CCP Rattati says that its imbalanced but won't make changes until more players use it. He does not say this He says that if it players start to use this more, and more kills are registered with it then it will get looked at. I'll assume you mean Scrambler Rifle. In that case, is it ok for the tactical (ie. regular) to be better at CQC than the AScR? Buff the Assault Scrambler rifle to be comparable to the AR. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
xavier zor Rogue Instincts 571	Posted - 2015.02.06 06:02:00 - [57] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: xavier zor wrote: The scrambler rifle is in a great place now. It melt's shield-tanking suits just like the CR melt' armor-tanking suits. The CR is the king of CQC in armor-profile weapons and the laser-rifle is king of CQC in shield-profile weapons, SR comes a close 2nd. The CR does over 111 damage/burst to armor, and doesn't do to bat against shield suits using 2 damage mods, prof. 5 The SR does 108/shot to shields, and does just over 66 damage/shot to armor using 2 damage mods. What makes the SR balanced is the heat mechanic, and sieze duration that the CR does not have. A gallente assault with a CR counter's an amarr assault with a SR Atiim wrote: CCP Rattati says that its imbalanced but won't make changes until more players use it. He does not say this He says that if it players start to use this more, and more kills are registered with it then it will get looked at. I'll assume you mean Scrambler Rifle. In that case, is it ok for the tactical (ie. regular) to be better at CQC than the AScR? Buff the Assault Scrambler rifle to be comparable to the AR. Agree with you on buff assault SR the stats are a joke...yeah the heat build up is good but who is going to be firing that long in a 1v1? Someone with horid aim looking for PC corporation also looking for lonely heavies to knife >:) heavies looking for me
Cassa-Nova KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 65	Posted - 2015.02.06 06:31:00 - [58] - Quote I laugh everytime the +20% is mention while completely ignoring the-20% during the current armour meta. Amarr Faction Suit Colour Schemes
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1918	Posted - 2015.02.06 16:55:00 - [59] - Quote Cassa-Nova wrote: I laugh everytime the +20% is mention while completely ignoring the-20% during the current armour meta. Did I mention it? Sorry hadn't realized I had ghosts... Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood RISE of LEGION 94	Posted - 2015.02.06 20:40:00 - [60] - Quote I say this Max range ---- MidRange ---- short range. Sniper <------- Laser <---- Rail + Scrambler <--- AScR <- ARR. We all know the laser and RR has been forced into respective damage ranges (LR damage curve, RR kick + refire time). Most people who has been using the RR in close range experience the limiter, the hip fire kick. Laser in close range is severely underpowered, which limits the laser in sub 60m range. Simply put, the SCR does not have a close range limiter. Heat cannot be an excuse because the laser is locked by a damage curve while heat mechanics are still intact in all ranges, ads or hip-fire. Also, the laser's OH penalty is higher than the ScR's penalty. As for the RR, kick and refire force it out of close range (sub 30m). This makes it more difficult for the RR to kill in close range; not impossible. What LUGMOS wants is simply the ScR to be forced into it's respectful range while having limitations in close range like the RR. That's all it is. "keep the ScR the way it is, but have something to limit it's short range ability like other long range weapons such as RR and LR." (again, hoping that's a proper translation of your thoughts) This will demand a straight up buff to the AScR per se, but it shall not be so high it causes another weapon to be offset. The way to prevent that should come up in discussion later. Entering the void and becoming wind with my repbus.

LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1923	Posted - 2015.02.06 21:20:00 - [61] - Quote Thank you Shamarskii. Hit my point on the nose again. You always had it right. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Dengru Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance 494	Posted - 2015.02.06 22:30:00 - [62] - Quote Do you see the flaw in reasoning in using the sniper and laser as examples when those frequently receive complaints of over-specified range/effectiveness drop offs? (>^_^)><(^.^<)
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1925	Posted - 2015.02.06 23:21:00 - [63] - Quote Dengru wrote: Do you see the flaw in reasoning in using the sniper and laser as examples when those frequently receive complaints of over-specified range/effectiveness drop offs? Nope. I don't see the Sniper Rifle or Laser Rifle having a close ranged alternative. The Scrambler Rifle on the other hand... The close ranged alternative should be used in close ranged engagements instead of the normal variant. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 644	Posted - 2015.02.07 00:13:00 - [64] - Quote Well, I don't see the flaw in comparing the laser to the RR and SCR either. The sniper yes. The sway mechanic makes the comparison completely ridiculous But I would find the laser not completely unreasonable for comparison. Let's think about it shall we? It's a rifle that is limited by overheat instead of recoil/dispersion. It has a huge penalty in that it does little to no damage at mid/close to cqc range -- but that penalty is offset by the fact that it has the perk of doing more damage as you use it. The close you are to overheat the more effective. That is risk vs reward and creates a higher skill ceiling. But that's the thing -- the rifle has the close range damage and incentives to run close to overheat penalties due to the combination of long range, increased damage over time, and no recoil/dispersion. (also, it lacks Aim Assist) The Scrambler is a rifle like the RR is a rifle. And the RR, while less accurate in CQC than at long range, still can, in skilled hands, kill while skipping in the rain. Just like the scrambler. It is ridiculous to pretend that it doesn't as we all see it all the time. That would be like someone saying SCR sucks at CQC. It doesn't. It's just not as good as at range. If you want to have fair, unbiased, honest, useful opinions and have constructive discussion -- you must admit the full weaknesses and strengths of both sides of the argument. In this case a comparison of the RR to the SCR. Don't pretend the SCR is a CQC monster and the RR isn't. It immediately invalidates any reasonable point y'all might have had by being strait up bullshit. So, let me ask you this, if you guys TRULY wanted to make the two rifles comparable -- would you accept the RR AND SCR having a damage penalty at close range? Massive reduction in recoil/dispersion on the RR? Increased spool up time? Because that would make the rifles counter balanced and function similarly. The only difference being the RR can shoot forever now, and the SCR having to stop to cooldown -- but the RR taking a good 1.5-2 sec to start shooting in the first place. So SCR being a front end weapon and the RR being a back end. Oh, the RR would have to take a range nerf to match the SCR. Almost forgot about that. However, if you think that would break the RR and make it useless -- then you might want to reconsider the scrambler hate. Because, at its core, the argument I am seeing from OP and supporters is that close range weapons should be overwhelmingly superior to long range weapons up close because they short range weapons simply cannot function at long range. And long range weapons should be made to not function at close range because they work at a range that short weapons simply don't. Hence the laser rifle comparison ya'll made earlier. And that is, in fact, a reasonable fair argument. But to apply this to 1 long range gun and not ALL the guns is biased. If you want the SCR to be laser rifle useless at CQC, then you have to nerf the LONGER ranged RR to match it. (and then buff the long range capabilities of the RR by giving it less recoil.) Then the CR will have to match it so it would have to be less effective too in CQC. And the TaR/BaR. Do you see the slippery slope here? So instead of the above CCP says -- we will make the long range rifles viable in CQC -- just not as good as the close range counterparts. That's why you can kill someone at 10 meters with a Scr. That's why you can kill someone at 10 meters with a RR. That's why you can still kill someone with a CR at 10 meters. Again -- you are getting slaughtered by Scramblers due to turbo controllers breaking two of the gun's limiting mechanics.
Templar XIII Vherokior Combat Logistics Minmatar Republic 59	Posted - 2015.02.07 00:54:00 - [65] - Quote If the Scr is to be nerved in range to damage application, the Ascr needs to be buffed a mighty bit to deserve the title CQC weapon. By the love of the great One, big Baba Matumba, lord Almighty Sky Wizard, please CCP, turn me true Amarr. finally...
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1926	Posted - 2015.02.07 01:24:00 - [66] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Good points and whatnot Alright, I think you have me beat. I still won't agree with the ScR being as good as it is in CQC though, but I can see the slippery slope that could happen. One thing is for sure, the (regular) RR is much worse than the ScR in close range, but I guess that's fine because of the heat mechanic, if that makes sense. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1926	Posted - 2015.02.07 01:24:00 - [67] - Quote Templar XIII wrote: If the Scr is to be nerved in range to damage application, the Ascr needs to be buffed a mighty bit to deserve the title CQC weapon. 'Tis what I've been saying. Just not in the OP. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 650	Posted - 2015.02.07 01:35:00 - [68] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Imp Smash wrote: Good points and whatnot Alright, I think you have me beat. I still won't agree with the ScR being as good as it is in CQC though, but I can see the slippery slope that could happen. One thing is for sure, the (regular) RR is much worse than the ScR in close range, but I guess that's fine because of the heat mechanic, if that makes sense. Well, bolded part alone I would disagree with myself and agree with you actually. I agree with your original assertion that the Long range rifles should not be as good up close as the close range rifles. And I agree that if the SCR is better than the RR at close range then the SCR would need to be nerfed. Essentially I don't know if the RR is worse than the SCR. Currently I use neither, all I know is they both kill me at a variety of ranges. Sometimes heads up, when I see the other guy, and we start fighting time. I feel they both kill me approximately equally as fast too. In the sense that the RR may be worse than the ScR at CQC you may be right. And if you are, and if there are no other balancing components then I would agree that the ScR would need a CqC nerf to more closely match the RR. I would not want a damage fall off. A dispersion nerf (another one I guess?) would be better. That's just my opinion though.
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars RISE of LEGION 218	Posted - 2015.02.07 13:01:00 - [69] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: WeapondigitX V7 wrote: The scrambler has much less optimal and effective range than the rail rifle thus it needs to have much better ability up close. Its higher fitting cost and lower damage per overheat compared to the assault rifle also creates the need for the scrambler to be kind of good at 25m to 60m engagements. At engagements of 15m to 25m the scrambler still needs to aim down sights and move much slower to attempt to hit targets most of the time. Other guns like the breach assault rifle and combat rifle can hipfire instead with very good accuracy at 15 to 25m engagements while moving much faster allowing them to comtrol range and dodge a few bullets. The charge shot of the scrambler (when it is used) reduces the overall damage per overheat compared to firing 22 shots with an amarr assault. The charge shot does roughly 200 damage unmodified by damage profile. The std shotgun does roughly 480 damage unmodified by its damage profile. The Aim Down Sights recoil of the scrambler rifle prevents it from quickly firing many bullets accurately against enemies that are slightly peeking out of cover and firing at you (at 40m to 70m engagements). This lowers the damage per overheat and dps of the scrambler rifle a lot. I am referring to cover that hides the lower halve of the enemy and may also only expose only one shoulder of the enemy if the cover is shaped like a triangle of boxes. The breach assault rifle, the burst assault rifle and regular assault rifle does not have large recoil problems. The cool down time of the scrambler rifle acts like a reload. But it takes 6 seconds to cool down, instead of 3 seconds of reloading like the assault rifles and combat rifles. Firing at 1 brick tanked enemy like a std amarr assault or gallente assault leaves you very vulnerable with a scrambler rifle. Because it takes 6 seconds to cooldown, an observing enemy might ambush you while you are vulnerable, forcing you to switch to a sidearm for 3 seconds at minimum. That is plenty of time for a skilled person to kill an amarr assault suit with a HMG or ACR etc. Additionally the higher fitting costs of the scrambler rifle hinders a suits ability to fit good sidearms on top of good modules. This makes me very confident against scrambler rifle users when I ambush them with a assault suit while using 1 proto profile dampener. (they would need 2 proto precision enhancers to see me coming, which would severely hurt there dps and damage per overheat.) Good points, now my turn to rebute. Having less long range ability than the Rail Rifle does not make it entitled to better CQC abilities. I'll just ignore this point for the most part since there is not much backing it. Also, you say that it needs to be good from 25m-60m. That's fine, except as of now, it is stepping on the AR's shoes in the AR's own range, as it is arguably more effective than the AR due to more reliable damage application, even at hipfire. The AR needs to ADS from 20m out, whereas the ScR's tight hipfire allows it to shoot farther without having to ADS. I don't know what you are talking about with the 15-25 the ScR has to hipfire, and that the AR is at a disadvantage. This is bad, because the ScR should be at a clear disadvantage at that range. OK, the point with the under barrel shotgun was a hyperbole, so take it with a grain of salt. Also, with the unreliable damage application after some shots, it won't matter if you're using it in that range. The RR is sooo much worse at that range because of it's ridiculous sight that shakes uncontrollably while firing. The ScRis much better at that range than the RR, granted it is within 70 meters. Anything else at that range just doesn't compete, including the breach AR, burst AR and TAC AR. Also, it does not take 6 seconds for the ScR's seizure to end. It is 1 second longer than a reload at most. Also, you shouldnt have to be taking on multiple enemies in one OH. You are asking to die and should. Also, the overheat can be managed by just switching to a sidearm. So there's that. And the higher fitting costs is not that bad, granted I am using an Amarr Assault, but I can still fit Pro mods and weapons. Also, even if the sidearm is not PRO, is it really that much of a hindrance? And for the last bit, good for you. If you ambushed them, they should die, regardless of what weapon you are using. You miss understand, I meant that it takes the SCR 6 seconds to get rid of its heat after 17 to 21 shots (without it overheating) I wish I could find my other posts about the SCR in other threads. They had other points. I was also talking about situations where you kill 1 guy in single combat with a SCR and the next guy that comes around the corner instantly 'like an ambush' has a greater chance of killing you because you might be close to overheat and thus you use a sidearm with less DPS and likely less damage per clip. ARs have less chance of having an issue here because of there very large clip size (it depends on how many bullets you have remaining). Light weapons usually have much higher DPS compared to side arms (without headshots). I also was trying to convey that if the SCR did not have the longest range like the RR then it needs something else in order for it to be deemed a worth while weapon. I was trying to say the SCR has much less hipfire accuracy compared to the breach assault rifle. nerfing the hipfire accuracy or buffing it only makes it more user friendly at different ranges. If the SCR's hipfire accuracy was nerfed much more, it would be more user friendly at 5m engagements than the AR and Breach AR. You should try the ACR on full auto at 5m engagements, the inaccuracy is at a very good sweet spot there. The SCR's hipfire and ROF is currently user friendly against straffing targets at 20m but you may miss roughly 7 bullets. The Breach AR would be user friendly at 25 to 30m engagements.
WeapondigitX V7 The Exemplars RISE of LEGION 218	Posted - 2015.02.07 13:12:00 - [70] - Quote When I say 'user friendly' I mean that the average player would have a better chance at hitting the enemy a few times BUT something more accurate would be better for veterans because they can aim better with there controller. I hope that clears a few things up. The high dps however does allow the SCR to spam shots with 60% accuracy using hipfire at 25m engagements an still have possibly higher or equivalent DPS to a breach AR which can be problematic I suppose. Despite lowering its resulting damage per overheat. You could increase the hipfire recoil of the SCR, to reduce the accuracy of the SCR, but i hope that does not increase the kick/camera shake as well. Because that messes with player input far too greatly. Remember asking for a nerf to the SCR is similar to asking for a nerf to the tactical assault rifle since they are very similar functioning weapons except the TAC AR has less PG/CPU cost and more damage per clip without overheating. The Aim Down Sights recoil may not be very high for the SCR but it is higher than the Breach AR and AR. If you get hit many time while ADS firing the SCR recoil does increase much more, you may want to test this and get a comparison against the Breach AR and AR and combat rifle.

LudiKure ninda Dead Man's Game RUST415 187	Posted - 2015.02.07 14:34:00 - [71] - Quote OMG you actualy complaining about SCR???!!! people like you are ruining the game each day,...omg scr killed me OP!!! omg acr killed me OP!!! omg hmg killed me OP!!! Stop spreding your **** around here and gitgutskrub!!! ( -í° -£-û -í°) `SCAN ATTEMPT PREVENTED`
Kira Lannister Ancient Exiles. 2610	Posted - 2015.02.07 17:58:00 - [72] - Quote LudiKure ninda wrote: OMG you actualy complaining about SCR???!!! people like you are ruining the game each day,...omg scr killed me OP!!! omg acr killed me OP!!! omg hmg killed me OP!!! Stop spreding your **** around here and gitgutskrub!!! What he said. GIT GUD BRUH "The Ancient Templars will guard fearlessly the people, the land and the heavens of the empire." Book of Exiles 1:3
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1942	Posted - 2015.02.07 19:18:00 - [73] - Quote **** you idiots. I respect Imp Smash, WeapondigitX V7, and Templar XIII. But you idiots are just as bad as people who actually QQ. God damn you guys, I even put it in the OP now, there is no excuse. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1942	Posted - 2015.02.07 19:43:00 - [74] - Quote Templar XIII wrote: If any reasonable conversation was ever intended, you would have left it be with your posts in the first few threads towards that topic, would have kept those alive and kicking. This is just sad. Ever heard of compromise? Ever heard of flaws? I had flaws in my initial argument, as would most any argument. That is why I posted in a DISCUSSION board, so the flaws could be found. I am quite accepting in my flaws in rationale, it is just stupid to be so stubborn as to try and ignore them and keep pushing your initial argument. I pride myself for trying to leave bias as much as possible from my arguments, if it does slip by, then I am only human, no? People with mentalitites like yours are why government can be so locked up sometimes. You have to accommodate sometimes. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Luther Mandrix WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL Top Men. 433	Posted - 2015.02.07 19:47:00 - [75] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: OK. So now I have to put it out there. Sorry Amarr bros. When the rail rifle had epic range while still being good up close, it was deemed OP and damage application up close was nerfed. Right now, with the regular Scrambler rifle you have the same deal. It is literally a long range rifle with a shotgun attachment that can be used by holding R1. It is way too versatile for a weapon that can shoot that far and do that much damage with that high of a RoF. Now, the Laser Rifle is pretty balanced because of one mechanic that makes it unusable up close: a damage penalty up close. Why doesn't the normal Scrambler variant have this? I mean, its not like there isn't an Assault variant that is supposed to fill its CQC role. So why not introduce a damage scalar? TL;DR: introduce damage penalty up close for ScR TL;DR thread: while it would make sense to introduce a falloff range for the ScR up close, it would lead to catalytic events that would begin the introduction of this falloff to all ranged rifles. This would ultimately throw off many things, albeit it being a good change. So all in all, it would be a pain to have to do all that changing. Better changes *may be*(not necessarily should be, just throwing out ideas): 1. More dispersion (only in hipfire) 2. RoF nerf (probably a good thing in itself) 3. Just buff the AScR 3 should be a thing whether or not the ScR is changed at all, as it is sort of lackluster ATM. (Maybe modded controllers are the problem)
Shamarskii Simon The Hundred Acre Hood RISE of LEGION 101	Posted - 2015.02.07 20:05:00 - [76] - Quote well the question is: dispersion vs fall-off. We get the rail and ScR are basically the same weapon Range wise. They both have limiting factors too (kick / heat), But they operate separately HOWEVER! Before we can move to even thinking about anything... The problem of modded controllers needs to be addressed Entering the void and becoming wind with my repbus.
Savage Mangler Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 284	Posted - 2015.02.07 20:22:00 - [77] - Quote I'll try to be reasonable here. A CQC nerf to the scrambler through the methof you proposed could only be allowed if there was a massive heat reduction to it or if the asscrambler was buffed to do reasonsble damage. Some racial fit purists like myself like to use the scr on our commandos or scouts, which currently is only made viable by the ability to effectively fighyt in both cqc and long-mid range due to the fact we don't get a heat reduction bonus. Even with their damage bonus and a complex damage mod a amarrian commando is still less effective at proto level than an assault. Free your mind, break your shackles..... In other words....stop being a gorram metasheeple.
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1942	Posted - 2015.02.07 20:23:00 - [78] - Quote Luther Mandrix wrote: (Maybe modded controllers are the problem) Fix modded controllers before adjusting stats that are the result of mod controller using players There's no easy way to do this... It would require a RoF nerf, and all the people who say the ScR is perfect and not to mess with it would cri. Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1942	Posted - 2015.02.07 20:27:00 - [79] - Quote Savage Mangler wrote: I'll try to be reasonable here. A CQC nerf to the scrambler through the methof you proposed could only be allowed if there was a massive heat reduction to it or if the asscrambler was buffed to do reasonsble damage. Some racial fit purists like myself like to use the scr on our commandos or scouts, which currently is only made viable by the ability to effectively fighyt in both cqc and long-mid range due to the fact we don't get a heat reduction bonus. Even with their damage bonus and a complex damage mod a amarrian commando is still less effective at proto level than an assault. Well, I guess... And you did make it to reasonable. More than reasonable, what you say is true. That is quite true. However, if you were to lower the heat buildup, people would cry that the ScR is OP on the Amarr Assault, which isn't too bad considering you must invest a lot of SP to get there. Plus, for arguments sake, the CR is almost to that level of "OP" on a MinAssault already, which is seemingly fine ATM. However, my original intention is to make the AScR better at CQC than the normal variant. So if the AScR was made viable, would you use it over the normal variant? Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V
Savage Mangler Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 284	Posted - 2015.02.07 21:34:00 - [80] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Savage Mangler wrote: I'll try to be reasonable here. A CQC nerf to the scrambler through the methof you proposed could only be allowed if there was a massive heat reduction to it or if the asscrambler was buffed to do reasonsble damage. Some racial fit purists like myself like to use the scr on our commandos or scouts, which currently is only made viable by the ability to effectively fighyt in both cqc and long-mid range due to the fact we don't get a heat reduction bonus. Even with their damage bonus and a complex damage mod a amarrian commando is still less effective at proto level than an assault. Well, I guess... And you did make it to reasonable. More than reasonable, what you say is true. That is quite true. However, if you were to lower the heat buildup, people would cry that the ScR is OP on the Amarr Assault, which isn't too bad considering you must invest a lot of SP to get there. Plus, for arguments sake, the CR is almost to that level of "OP" on a MinAssault already, which is seemingly fine ATM. However, my original intention is to make the AScR better at CQC than the normal variant. So if the AScR was made viable, would you use it over the normal variant? Absolutely. I have assault V, commando III and scout III on an alt of mine and I would preferably use the AScR on 2/3 of them. And indeed the ACR (and turbo CR's) approach insane levels of damage, even when not mounted on a minassault. The ACR technically does less damage per shot than the AScR, but has a much higher RoF. To put things in perspective I'll compare the ScR to the AScR. The AScR gives up roughly 50% damage for a roughly 12-13% RoF increase. That just doesn't add up. Mind you there is a similar trade with the AR and TAR, but the AR still has a higher RoF than the AScR (as it should, gallente weaponry being focused on CqC). The TAR and SCR RoF is also theoretical for the most part as the average person cannot consistently maintain that RoF and maintain optimal accuracy, which is why turbo controllers have been prevalent for both weapons. All of this is not even adding in damage profiles and the current armor meta (which is more like dualtank as far some of the MinAssaults I've seen). Free your mind, break your shackles..... In other words....stop being a gorram metasheeple.

Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 659	Posted - 2015.02.09 00:01:00 - [81] - Quote I am seeing some good an reasonable discussion here. Makes me feel warm and fuzzy. We do have to consider Mod controllers in this though. I have picked up a modded controller and tried it out with the scrambler, tac AR, and ACR. And it was broken broken broken. This was before ScR RoF nerf and the BurstAR buff though. Regardless, now I still poke my head around a corner and lose 200 shields and 200 armor sometimes in less than half a second (no exaggeration) and I can see the ScR bolts overlapping eachother. So I know that massive damage hit was a result of a modded controller. All that aside though -- I read a very interesting point. The ScR should not, in any sense, be better when hip firing than the ARs. That's just silly. I really would like a blue tag to come in here and discuss the dispersion and recoil on hip fire. But seeing as we are on page 4 and there is a lot of 'less than useful posting' in the middle of this thread they are probably avoiding going in this far. Still, I can't imagine people hip firing the scrambler 25 meters out. If they are then there is a problem there. I don't have scramblers or ARs. can someone with a capture device do some gunfire spread testing on a wall and put up some pictures?
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy 1974	Posted - 2015.02.09 00:04:00 - [82] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Still, I can't imagine people hip firing the scrambler 25 meters out. If they are then there is a problem there. I don't have scramblers or ARs. can someone with a capture device do some gunfire spread testing on a wall and put up some pictures? Will do. SoonGäó Official QuafeGäó Advocate Anti-FoTM Prof. V Forum Scavenger Prof. V


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