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Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 142	Posted - 2015.01.09 18:08:00 - [781] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: 1) Based on the descriptions that Rattati gave, I came up with the idea of making the Marauders Giant Battle-Buses. The Actual Size of the negative bonus is irrelevant (25% is a bit ridiculous) but it was to illustrate their roll as a large, frontline infantry killer. I'm thinking the Madrugar and Gunnlogi will be the main battle tanks. 2) The Gunnlogi's Regen and Buffer currently are way too high relative to the Maddy, so I started by Slashing the regen down (and basing it off of a recharge time 3.5 time lower than the frigates) and making ever effort to ensure that adding buffer maintained the recharge. I then lowered the base fitting stats slightly (5%) to account for a 5% per level fitting skill being added in. So instead of buffing the Madrugar to be on par with the Gunnlogi, you nerf the Gunnlogi to be on par with the Madrugar. Another bad idea. a) The Maddy got a base armor nerf, but a fitting buff and on the modules page the introduction of the Large Plates should help significantly. As for the Specifics of slot layouts it's more to demonstrate that Gallente and Minmatar need to be mirroring eachother (Try it with the Maddy being a 2/4 instead) My Madrugar already nearly gets destroyed by a single Minmando. It doesn't need any less HP. c) The base HP numbers came from the cruisers in EVE, taking their shield and armor numbers and modifying them slightly to fit better into dust, (such as decreasing the shield levels slightly to account for the proposed base resistance by facing, increase the values of all the base HP and fitting mods that provide hp by 10% if you don't think the resistance by facing will be coming) Might as well have pulled the numbers out of a hat. d) Also, the shield regen numbers come back at a constant rate under this proposal, no shield recharge delay (Only Depleted Delay), so the hit isn't quite as bad as it seems. Additionaly, vehicle recharges are massively powerful under this proposal (if you look next to them you can see the power of only fitting one to a gunnlogi) That's how it was in Chrome. I'm working on numbers with that in effect. 3) Again here, the actual size of the bonus doesn't really matter (as long as the devs know that a proposal like this will need to be hammered out) and could probably be brought down to a 25% total, but it is to illustrate the Caldari Philosophy of Range. Yes it does, because a PRO breach forge hitting the 167% in the back has a real good chance of destroying a base HP tank in one shot. That's an insane bonus for a weapon that already does insane damage. 5) The turret stats for Rails Specifically came from reducing the refire rate to make them feel more like main cannone, No, because it's the future. I can't wait to see your numbers Spker (I really can't wait, you've got some strong opinions, so my expectations are very high), and I'm still working on mine. I've updated them slightly here in only the past 30 seconds. I also wanted things to be more focused on modules than hulls, so I rolled most of the nerfed stats into the modules themselves (take a look at that page, and notice the differences). Base Regen on the Gunnlogi needed a nerf, there is no arguing with that point (Especially if we do away with shield recharge delay). I also fail to see what a range bonus has to do with increasing damage...and as for a BFG one hitting a base HP tank...working as intended...fit some damn mods or gtfo. I personally don't like the RoF on the rails currently, but we can agree to disagree on this point Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2700	Posted - 2015.01.09 18:11:00 - [782] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Updated my numbers with what I think would be pretty good (drawing heavily from EVE and the Dropsuits)...I don't think these will require too much of an AV Re-balance (other than filling the missing AV Roles). Nerfing the Gunnlogi? Giving the Sagaris worse fitting than the Gunnlogi? People like you get vehicles nerfed into worthlessness. Is there any specialized suit that has less PG and CPU than its basic counterpart? Sentinel LOLWUT The sentinel has a -PG/CPU usage per level. Along with that, you really mean to tell me a PRO basic heavy frame has better PG and CPU than a PRO sentinel? I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2700	Posted - 2015.01.09 18:12:00 - [783] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: 1) Based on the descriptions that Rattati gave, I came up with the idea of making the Marauders Giant Battle-Buses. The Actual Size of the negative bonus is irrelevant (25% is a bit ridiculous) but it was to illustrate their roll as a large, frontline infantry killer. I'm thinking the Madrugar and Gunnlogi will be the main battle tanks. 2) The Gunnlogi's Regen and Buffer currently are way too high relative to the Maddy, so I started by Slashing the regen down (and basing it off of a recharge time 3.5 time lower than the frigates) and making ever effort to ensure that adding buffer maintained the recharge. I then lowered the base fitting stats slightly (5%) to account for a 5% per level fitting skill being added in. So instead of buffing the Madrugar to be on par with the Gunnlogi, you nerf the Gunnlogi to be on par with the Madrugar. Another bad idea. a) The Maddy got a base armor nerf, but a fitting buff and on the modules page the introduction of the Large Plates should help significantly. As for the Specifics of slot layouts it's more to demonstrate that Gallente and Minmatar need to be mirroring eachother (Try it with the Maddy being a 2/4 instead) My Madrugar already nearly gets destroyed by a single Minmando. It doesn't need any less HP. c) The base HP numbers came from the cruisers in EVE, taking their shield and armor numbers and modifying them slightly to fit better into dust, (such as decreasing the shield levels slightly to account for the proposed base resistance by facing, increase the values of all the base HP and fitting mods that provide hp by 10% if you don't think the resistance by facing will be coming) Might as well have pulled the numbers out of a hat. d) Also, the shield regen numbers come back at a constant rate under this proposal, no shield recharge delay (Only Depleted Delay), so the hit isn't quite as bad as it seems. Additionaly, vehicle recharges are massively powerful under this proposal (if you look next to them you can see the power of only fitting one to a gunnlogi) That's how it was in Chrome. I'm working on numbers with that in effect. 3) Again here, the actual size of the bonus doesn't really matter (as long as the devs know that a proposal like this will need to be hammered out) and could probably be brought down to a 25% total, but it is to illustrate the Caldari Philosophy of Range. Yes it does, because a PRO breach forge hitting the 167% in the back has a real good chance of destroying a base HP tank in one shot. That's an insane bonus for a weapon that already does insane damage. 5) The turret stats for Rails Specifically came from reducing the refire rate to make them feel more like main cannone, No, because it's the future. I can't wait to see your numbers Spker (I really can't wait, you've got some strong opinions, so my expectations are very high), and I'm still working on mine. I've updated them slightly here in only the past 30 seconds. I also wanted things to be more focused on modules than hulls, so I rolled most of the nerfed stats into the modules themselves (take a look at that page, and notice the differences). Base Regen on the Gunnlogi needed a nerf, there is no arguing with that point (Especially if we do away with shield recharge delay). I also fail to see what a range bonus has to do with increasing damage...and as for a BFG one hitting a base HP tank...working as intended...fit some damn mods or gtfo. I personally don't like the RoF on the rails currently, but we can agree to disagree on this point Not letting them out need. Need confirmation I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 142	Posted - 2015.01.09 18:15:00 - [784] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Updated my numbers with what I think would be pretty good (drawing heavily from EVE and the Dropsuits)...I don't think these will require too much of an AV Re-balance (other than filling the missing AV Roles). Nerfing the Gunnlogi? Giving the Sagaris worse fitting than the Gunnlogi? People like you get vehicles nerfed into worthlessness. Is there any specialized suit that has less PG and CPU than its basic counterpart? Sentinel LOLWUT The sentinel has a -PG/CPU usage per level. Along with that, you really mean to tell me a PRO basic heavy frame has better PG and CPU than a PRO sentinel? PRO Caldari Heavy frame has more PGU than the Caldari Sentinel, but less CPU (which you will find is mirrored in my proposed numbers) as for the fitting reduction, you'll find that in the base Marauder Bonuses. Also...confirmation of what? Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 395	Posted - 2015.01.09 18:31:00 - [785] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Lazer Fo Cused wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Lazer I think you misunderstood what I was talking about in number 3 and 6...but that's a bit irrelevant to the discussion as a whole. You don't have to explain Eve's mechanics to me, I know them well. Anyway, so if vehicle v vehicle TTK is too low, why not try adjusting the turret DPS instead of increasing base hp too much (I'm adjusting my hp numbers back up and just going to make a note on the resistance page). What do you think would be a good DPS for the Rail Turret? (If I change its DPS the other guns should update accordingly) (Guns in my proposal as it is now can only theoretically OHKO a base hull with no HP Mods) 1. New Eden - If its in EVE it should follow to DUST - Its the same universe 2. Chrome was the 2 shot era for vehicles - Uprising 1.0 stopped that with reduction in damage mods and turrets damage - Also more modules slots and variety of modules and turrets with useful skills and skillbooks altered TTK before anyone brought out a vehicle - Vehicles were more defensive in Uprising era because to me at least it did take longer to take down vehicles due to everything above I still don't think you understood what I meant there (For instance, having Shield Extenders increase signature profile in DUST won't help every weapon's damage application against that target although it should help with target acquisition, hence we have DRD)...nor did you answer my question...what do you think a good DPS Number (or how much lower from current) do you think Large Railguns need to be? I've updated my numbers slightly based on what you and Breakin have said...but I'll need to work on other skill bonuses later on today. (I've decreased Rail DPS by 20%, so look at the turrets and see what you think) 1.It meas you show up on radar more often from further away - That helps 2. Like i said - All the old useful skills and skill bonuses along with the modules need to come back into play before you can theory fit anything
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2681	Posted - 2015.01.09 19:11:00 - [786] - Quote To the people who thinks that making blasters into a giant PLC is a good idea: How in the hell does a precision weapon such as a PLC makes sense? Also, would you ever use a PLC over a FG? Shotty blaster makes more sense. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2681	Posted - 2015.01.09 19:19:00 - [787] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: So instead of increasing the base stats on the hulls, why not increase the HP given by armor plates themselves? (or re-examine the damage bonus from the tailpipe weakspot) Chromosome the base hulls were flimsy and improved by the quality of fitting you could clock into it. When uprising rolled around CCP decided to re-invent the wheel and reverse the apple cart and make the fittings less important and front-load the benefits on the hulls themselves. this had the added side effect of the dumbing down of vehicle mods. Do I think the passive regen is horrible? Nah, but it should have been provided along with active regen options as well for armor. a lot of the issue is when your base hull has 4,000 EHP, then in order to balance things out without randomly buffing the crap out of AV you have to dumb down the modules. If the HAVs were more fit-centric as they were in chrome more options open up. The hull-centric model saw the removal of more options than it added by far. There was so many valid fit options in chromo, I loved it. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2681	Posted - 2015.01.09 19:22:00 - [788] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: So...we're in agreement that we need a less hull-centric model for vehicles, with more of a focus on what modules are fitted, and with skills effecting final stats? Yes. I'm still baffled WHY CCP changed the makeup. I know they like to shake things up, and I applaud the desire to see the game not get stale, but you do this by adding content and value to content, not by completely changing the mechanics at a whim. They removed several modules and skills for no reason, and when we asked for them back, no response ever. It's called CCP logic Breakin, you should know this. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6252	Posted - 2015.01.09 19:24:00 - [789] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: So...we're in agreement that we need a less hull-centric model for vehicles, with more of a focus on what modules are fitted, and with skills effecting final stats? Yes. I'm still baffled WHY CCP changed the makeup. I know they like to shake things up, and I applaud the desire to see the game not get stale, but you do this by adding content and value to content, not by completely changing the mechanics at a whim. They removed several modules and skills for no reason, and when we asked for them back, no response ever. It's called CCP logic Breakin, you should know this. This doesn't answer WHY it was done. I know HOW it was done. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2683	Posted - 2015.01.09 19:54:00 - [790] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: So...we're in agreement that we need a less hull-centric model for vehicles, with more of a focus on what modules are fitted, and with skills effecting final stats? Yes. I'm still baffled WHY CCP changed the makeup. I know they like to shake things up, and I applaud the desire to see the game not get stale, but you do this by adding content and value to content, not by completely changing the mechanics at a whim. They removed several modules and skills for no reason, and when we asked for them back, no response ever. It's called CCP logic Breakin, you should know this. This doesn't answer WHY it was done. I know HOW it was done. Yes it does Breakin, again, CCP logic AKA no reason at all, nobody asking for it, just the complete opposite. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-

Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6252	Posted - 2015.01.09 20:11:00 - [791] - Quote Doing things for no purpose other than "this might be cool. Let's surprise everyone" makes no sense in the context of a game who's features are near-riot inducing from the word go whenever someone pokes a number. Re-inventing them makes less sense. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4338	Posted - 2015.01.09 21:32:00 - [792] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Doing things for no purpose other than "this might be cool. Let's surprise everyone" makes no sense in the context of a game who's features are near-riot inducing from the word go whenever someone pokes a number. Re-inventing them makes less sense. Breakin. Are you saying your expect CCP to do things that make sense? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2686	Posted - 2015.01.09 21:36:00 - [793] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Doing things for no purpose other than "this might be cool. Let's surprise everyone" makes no sense in the context of a game who's features are near-riot inducing from the word go whenever someone pokes a number. Re-inventing them makes less sense. Breakin. Are you saying your expect CCP to do things that make sense? My point. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4338	Posted - 2015.01.09 22:03:00 - [794] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Doing things for no purpose other than "this might be cool. Let's surprise everyone" makes no sense in the context of a game who's features are near-riot inducing from the word go whenever someone pokes a number. Re-inventing them makes less sense. Breakin. Are you saying your expect CCP to do things that make sense? My point. When Rattati started doing things that made sense I got all freaked out "Wait....whats the catch? Did they hand Dust over to another company? What is this sorcery?! " "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2686	Posted - 2015.01.09 22:08:00 - [795] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Doing things for no purpose other than "this might be cool. Let's surprise everyone" makes no sense in the context of a game who's features are near-riot inducing from the word go whenever someone pokes a number. Re-inventing them makes less sense. Breakin. Are you saying your expect CCP to do things that make sense? My point. When Rattati started doing things that made sense I got all freaked out "Wait....whats the catch? Did they hand Dust over to another company? What is this sorcery?! " I just thought, "Oh, they have someone that is not a dumbass for once, I wonder if he can actually fix vehicles though" click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4338	Posted - 2015.01.10 00:16:00 - [796] - Quote Random scribbles, just doing this ** in passes. Assume 3 Main slots (Will be increased later, values adjusted accordingly) Assume Passive Armor Reps (Will be changed later, values adjusted accordingly) Assume Shield and Armor Hardeners are both 30% reduction Assume 180mm Plate is 50% more HP than 120mm Plate General Goals for this pass: -Maintain Gunnlogi eHP -Require Gunnlogi to fit Shield Recharger to reach same levels of shield regen -Maintain Madrugar Armor Repair rate -Match Base HP of Gunnlogi and Madrugar -Significantly increase Madrugar eHP so that it has ~20% more eHP than Gunnlogi, and Gunnlogi has ~20% regen rate. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1J2n_K-I5tvkghAG6Hvjygy51YZuOCP50PAdKT_LoS-k/edit?usp=sharing Result is that Gunnlogi for the most part performs as it currently is, Madrugar has similar regen to before, but a lot more HP. Feel free to spaz out as per usual. "That little st Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Alldin Kan Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1235	Posted - 2015.01.10 01:01:00 - [797] - Quote Reading through 40 pages of feedback will be overkill for me. Can someone give a brief summary of what went on here? Alldin Kan has joined the battle!
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 687	Posted - 2015.01.10 01:39:00 - [798] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Random scribbles, just doing this **** in passes. Assume 3 Main slots (Will be increased later, values adjusted accordingly) Assume Passive Armor Reps (Will be changed later, values adjusted accordingly) Assume Shield and Armor Hardeners are both 30% reduction Assume 180mm Plate is 50% more HP than 120mm Plate General Goals for this pass: -Maintain Gunnlogi eHP -Require Gunnlogi to fit Shield Recharger to reach same levels of shield regen -Maintain Madrugar Armor Repair rate -Match Base HP of Gunnlogi and Madrugar -Significantly increase Madrugar eHP so that it has ~20% more eHP than Gunnlogi, and Gunnlogi has ~20% regen rate. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1J2n_K-I5tvkghAG6Hvjygy51YZuOCP50PAdKT_LoS-k/edit?usp=sharing Result is that Gunnlogi for the most part performs as it currently is, Madrugar has similar regen to before, but a lot more HP. Feel free to spaz out as per usual. Went over it, Gameplay wise impression: Sure f you assume hardeners will be on permanently, it may seem like Maddys and gunlogis have insane amounts of health, but by the time they are switched on damage is already taken. I'll see if i could help you put up the stats, but we ought to look at AV (infantry and vehicle) stats vs proposed vehicle stats to have a good impression of how OP or UP they may in the field. I'm thinking AV type / damage per shot vs Hadener off, hardner on, regen off , regen on for shield and armor. If we can get that spreadsheet on that figured out, then it may provide a good balancing counter point. Hey Thaddues you're good with numbers, you interested? Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4341	Posted - 2015.01.10 02:04:00 - [799] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Went over it, Gameplay wise impression: Sure f you assume hardeners will be on permanently, it may seem like Maddys and gunlogis have insane amounts of health, but by the time they are switched on damage is already taken. I'll see if i could help you put up the stats, but we ought to look at AV (infantry and vehicle) stats vs proposed vehicle stats to have a good impression of how OP or UP they may in the field. I'm thinking AV type / damage per shot vs Hadener off, hardner on, regen off , regen on for shield and armor. If we can get that spreadsheet on that figured out, then it may provide a good balancing counter point. Hey Thaddues you're good with numbers, you interested? Keep in mind I was mostly addressing two key issues -Gunnlogi's having far too much regen without any requirement of a module to reach such levels. -Madrugars falling short in both eHP and regen, when they should be superior in terms of eHP and inferior in terms of regen. So all values are really taken against each other, and it isnt intended to be a balance pass against AV at all. I just more or less used the Gunnlogi as a baseline and then adjust everything accordingly around that. So the values themselves will most definitely change, I was more looking at general concept of performance as well as relative performance to each other. Additionally I would like to see an increase in slots with relative adjustment values. That being said fits will likely have more hardeners equipped allowing a more consistent hardened state with a lot of player input to keep them cycling at the proper times. Again I was just taking the most simplistic setting for this pass (3 modules) to get some raw values out, and fully intend to expand out the fitting/modules more to provide a more balanced approach in terms of actual gameplay. You are correct though, doing a generalist pass with these values against AV was my next step. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 143	Posted - 2015.01.10 02:17:00 - [800] - Quote Pokey, do you have a skype? I'd very much like some help hammering down my numbers (and ask you a bit about yours) Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. I believe all these roles are support for front line soldiers.

Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2689	Posted - 2015.01.10 04:11:00 - [801] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Pokey, do you have a skype? I'd very much like some help hammering down my numbers (and ask you a bit about yours) It would be a good idea to make a channel discussing this, live talking is better than this imo. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Golden Day Y.A.M.A.H 805	Posted - 2015.01.10 04:14:00 - [802] - Quote Quote: Neither my mental state nor vacations are affecting this. After the first 20 pages were dragged down into the useless drivel I have come to expect between vehicle and infantry discussions, I decided to let it simmer and see if it would dig itself out of the hole. And it seems to be doing so, spreadsheets being worked on etc. This initiative is full on, but without quality feedback, we will just work on it internally. Our friendly scrub ratty has said this ^ Get back to working on discussions and spreadsheets slaves You do know that you are the one with four eyes right?
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4342	Posted - 2015.01.10 04:22:00 - [803] - Quote Thaddeus Reynolds wrote: Pokey, do you have a skype? I'd very much like some help hammering down my numbers (and ask you a bit about yours) Sure thing, hit me up at leowen.dravon on skype "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2689	Posted - 2015.01.10 04:59:00 - [804] - Quote Golden Day wrote: Quote: Neither my mental state nor vacations are affecting this. After the first 20 pages were dragged down into the useless drivel I have come to expect between vehicle and infantry discussions, I decided to let it simmer and see if it would dig itself out of the hole. And it seems to be doing so, spreadsheets being worked on etc. This initiative is full on, but without quality feedback, we will just work on it internally. Our friendly scrub ratty has said this ^ Get back to working on discussions and spreadsheets slaves Quote: we will just work on it internally. This makes it sound really suspect. Regardless, if it's real, as he said, we're on it. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2704	Posted - 2015.01.10 05:47:00 - [805] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: Golden Day wrote: Quote: Neither my mental state nor vacations are affecting this. After the first 20 pages were dragged down into the useless drivel I have come to expect between vehicle and infantry discussions, I decided to let it simmer and see if it would dig itself out of the hole. And it seems to be doing so, spreadsheets being worked on etc. This initiative is full on, but without quality feedback, we will just work on it internally. Our friendly scrub ratty has said this ^ Get back to working on discussions and spreadsheets slaves Quote: we will just work on it internally. This makes it sound really suspect. Regardless, if it's real, as he said, we're on it. It devolved mostly because I don't want to budge on vehicles, and believe AV should be a deterrent. In his own words, he wants tanks to counter each other. Sounds to me like AV is gonna get put on the chopping block. It's been a long time coming. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2689	Posted - 2015.01.10 06:19:00 - [806] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: Golden Day wrote: Quote: Neither my mental state nor vacations are affecting this. After the first 20 pages were dragged down into the useless drivel I have come to expect between vehicle and infantry discussions, I decided to let it simmer and see if it would dig itself out of the hole. And it seems to be doing so, spreadsheets being worked on etc. This initiative is full on, but without quality feedback, we will just work on it internally. Our friendly scrub ratty has said this ^ Get back to working on discussions and spreadsheets slaves Quote: we will just work on it internally. This makes it sound really suspect. Regardless, if it's real, as he said, we're on it. It devolved mostly because I don't want to budge on vehicles, and believe AV should be a deterrent. In his own words, he wants tanks to counter each other. Sounds to me like AV is gonna get put on the chopping block. It's been a long time coming. I doubt that, he'll probably take our advice about the chromo AV/V balance however click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6257	Posted - 2015.01.10 06:29:00 - [807] - Quote Pokey your premise will make tanks more powerful relative to AV/V interactions. Due to the nature of changes to primary AV over the last few iterations of DUST the gunnlogi is currently more powerful than the sagaris was relative to that interaction. And spkr there has to be a comprimose point where skilled AV gunners can in fact kill HAVs. I liked chromosome because once I got a feel for how the HAVs and forge guns worked it was possible to fight them on something resembling an even keel. I didn't mind losing a milllion + ISK in AV fits to lock down and detonate an overly expensive surya. AV gunners who focused on AV primarily thrived, everyone else whined. I want the days back when AV gunners and tank drivers would doubkecheck the enemy roster to make sure they weren't going to get any ugly surprises. But one thing that does need to be understood. Teamwork is not a justification for nerfing AV. It is not an exploit to gang up on a difficult target. However by the same token I do not, and never have, considered tanks surrounding and crossfiring infantry in an artificial killbox unfair either. Party tanks mowing people down by the numbers is working as intended. I think that mechanically at base HAV vs AV should be somewhere in the neighborhood of an even fight with a moderate advantage to the HAV. Pilot skill vs gunner skill should be the deciding factor, and neither side of that engagement should ever be considered a foregone conclusion. Tanks need to be vulnerable to destruction but not with the comparative ease of the current madrugar where no matter what you fit, one solo AV player is a sure bet to pop your vehicle. I don't give a crap, I do not want HAVs to be easy kills any more than I want them immune to destruction by forge guns. Chrome was an excellent balance point for this. Right now I don't bother running AV much. ADS can't pin me down, I can trivially avoid HAV engagements and when I engage it's either a trivial engagement or a complete waste of ammo and effort. It needs to change and bluntly this is why I think we should start by copy/pasting the AV/V from chrome then adjust the resistance levels of dropships so TTK doesn't become too short on ADS and standard dropships. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Spkr4theDead Red Star. 2705	Posted - 2015.01.10 06:30:00 - [808] - Quote Godin Thekiller wrote: I doubt that, he'll probably take our advice about the chromo AV/V balance however It really does sound like he wants tanks to beat the hell out of each other. And as far as Chrome V/AV balance goes, yeah, that was a really good time for vehicles. AV was a deterrent, and the escalation for tank warfare was awesome. Going from quite expensive MLT tanks, to more expensive STD tanks, to the behemoth Marauders that I think cost 2.5mil to 3mil ISK - I wouldn't know because I never had the SP for them. Obviously, if someone was stupid enough to stay still and not know how to use the mods, AV would bury them. But we have the experience to make the most out of our vehicles, and I've even gotten back into using the Madrugar. It usually comes down to experience. And I pray that the Madrugar gets brought up to the Gunnlogi, instead of the Gunnlogi being brought down to the Madrugar. They need validity in the face of the Enforcers and Marauders. If both are weak, then anybody that considers themselves a pilot will only use the specialized tanks, and nobody will take them out in pubs at all. Vehicles need to be strong, and they need to stand up to AV. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Breakin Stuff Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 6257	Posted - 2015.01.10 06:33:00 - [809] - Quote There's a difference between strong against and ableto ignore. The current iteration of the gunnlogi is more difficult to destroy than the chrome sagaris was. The chrome sagaris was awesome, this gunnlogi is too powerful defensively. And no I am not defending swarms. I never use the damn things and never have so I have never fired a wiyrkomi swarm. I've had them nail my maddy a few times though. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Godin Thekiller The Corporate Raiders Top Men. 2689	Posted - 2015.01.10 06:41:00 - [810] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Godin Thekiller wrote: I doubt that, he'll probably take our advice about the chromo AV/V balance however It really does sound like he wants tanks to beat the hell out of each other. And as far as Chrome V/AV balance goes, yeah, that was a really good time for vehicles. AV was a deterrent, and the escalation for tank warfare was awesome. Going from quite expensive MLT tanks, to more expensive STD tanks, to the behemoth Marauders that I think cost 2.5mil to 3mil ISK - I wouldn't know because I never had the SP for them. Obviously, if someone was stupid enough to stay still and not know how to use the mods, AV would bury them. But we have the experience to make the most out of our vehicles, and I've even gotten back into using the Madrugar. It usually comes down to experience. And I pray that the Madrugar gets brought up to the Gunnlogi, instead of the Gunnlogi being brought down to the Madrugar. They need validity in the face of the Enforcers and Marauders. If both are weak, then anybody that considers themselves a pilot will only use the specialized tanks, and nobody will take them out in pubs at all. Vehicles need to be strong, and they need to stand up to AV. They did beat the hell out of each other, too much in fact. TTK was bad as it is now. As for the T I vs. T II HAV's, that is obvious. If they were just buffs in general, they are broke. click me Blup Blub Bloop. Translation: Die -_-



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