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DarthJT5
12th Shadow Legion
154
   |
Posted - 2014.12.18 03:56:00 -
[241] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:
It was a very good sandwich.
In terms of fitting modules...... I don't know...... seems appropriate.....but underwhelming if you know what I mean....and regen wise? Regen is a sore spot for me right now.
Just for my sake so I can understand what you want propose to me a ........
Role Bonus ( the bonus that either each Marauder has or the bonus that the Marauder's skill affects on the Sagaris vs Surya)
and the
Hull Bonus (The bonus unique to the hull perhaps affected by the Caldari/Gallente HAV skill)
K, the hull bonus would be the regen and module fitting bonus, and the role bonus would be the duration and cool down. Indirectly causing the tank to have much greater defensive capabilities but mostly through it having a fifth slot. You could say the extra slot IS the role bonus in a way.
Tl:dr of all my posts: I want that extra slot while being balanced. Badly
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Up and coming Python pilot.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
|
Sir Dukey
Murphys-Law
General Tso's Alliance
1331
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 03:58:00 -
[242] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:
Enforcer is suppose to be less tanked than the Standard Main Battle Tank but a lot more damage, Marauder is suppose to have a lot more tank ever the standard.
I believe we can achieve that. Following eHP values of Enforcer Tank < Cruiser Tank < Marauder Tank E.G -A Gunlogi will have 4/2 Slot Lay Out and 150/150 PG/CPU after turrets -A Sagaris will have 5/2 and 175/175 PG/CPU after turrets -A Falchion would have 4/2 and 100/100 PG?CPU after turrets Comparatively Shield Extenders, Shield Hardeners, and Shield Boosters are expensive module to fit. Costing anywhere between 35/35 and 50/50 (or some combination of values to fit). However Heat Sinks, Tracking Computers, Tracking Enhancers, Damage Modules, etc only cost between 1/1 and 10/10 (or some combination of these values). In comparison an Enforcer Tank has superior hull HP attributes, but less fitting capacity. If a Gunnlogi could fit 2 Heavy Extenders, a Hardener, and a Passive Recharger (for a passive tank) an Enforcer could only fit a hardener and maybe a Light Shield Extender/ or booster...... encouraging them to use the rest of their PG and CPU on Weapons Upgrades.
I was thinking we could add in a built in module like LLAV's had and LOGI dropships had.
Enforcer built in example modules with no cost to slots- (not Particularly powerful)
-heat sink (10%)
-turret rotation mod
-ect.
Marauder built in with no expense to slots-
-Siege- Tank gets 15-20% passive shield/armor hardener for 30 secs, cool down 1 minute depending on whether it is Sagaris or Surya.
-ect.
I don't know, just think it's cool. teammates will be noted when siege module is activated. Like a distress signal.
Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
|
duster 35000
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
102
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 07:54:00 -
[243] - Quote
Sir Dukey wrote:True Adamance wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:
Enforcer is suppose to be less tanked than the Standard Main Battle Tank but a lot more damage, Marauder is suppose to have a lot more tank ever the standard.
I believe we can achieve that. Following eHP values of Enforcer Tank < Cruiser Tank < Marauder Tank E.G -A Gunlogi will have 4/2 Slot Lay Out and 150/150 PG/CPU after turrets -A Sagaris will have 5/2 and 175/175 PG/CPU after turrets -A Falchion would have 4/2 and 100/100 PG?CPU after turrets Comparatively Shield Extenders, Shield Hardeners, and Shield Boosters are expensive module to fit. Costing anywhere between 35/35 and 50/50 (or some combination of values to fit). However Heat Sinks, Tracking Computers, Tracking Enhancers, Damage Modules, etc only cost between 1/1 and 10/10 (or some combination of these values). In comparison an Enforcer Tank has superior hull HP attributes, but less fitting capacity. If a Gunnlogi could fit 2 Heavy Extenders, a Hardener, and a Passive Recharger (for a passive tank) an Enforcer could only fit a hardener and maybe a Light Shield Extender/ or booster...... encouraging them to use the rest of their PG and CPU on Weapons Upgrades. I was thinking we could add in a built in module like LLAV's had and LOGI dropships had. Enforcer built in example modules with no cost to slots- (not Particularly powerful) -heat sink (10-20%) -turret rotation mod -ect. Marauder built in with no expense to slots- -Siege- Tank gets 15-20% passive shield/armor hardener for 30 secs, cool down 1 minute depending on whether it is Sagaris or Surya. -ect. I don't know, just think it's cool. teammates will be noted when siege module is activated. Like a distress signal. Why- because they will help the role without making them permanent and OP. You would agree and I would too if Marauders with 5/2 layout have passive 20% resistances but with built in modules they can for a limited time. This creates a whole new dynamic play style. Marauders would engage when siege modules are ready as back up. When not recharged, it might not be such a good idea to engage say an Enforcer tank. The modules would be their to give a little extra out of the performance of your tank. Now what worries me are multiple hardeners. A Sagaris driving around with 3 hardeners and two heavy complex shield extenders along with a siege module ready to go. I would limit hardeners to two, I would also make it so when siege module is active, all previously active modules be shut off.
Seige module would have to be better than a hardener or something.
And uh, who took a duke in this thread?
Choo Choo
|
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
16106
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 10:37:00 -
[244] - Quote
duster 35000 wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:True Adamance wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:
Enforcer is suppose to be less tanked than the Standard Main Battle Tank but a lot more damage, Marauder is suppose to have a lot more tank ever the standard.
I believe we can achieve that. Following eHP values of Enforcer Tank < Cruiser Tank < Marauder Tank E.G -A Gunlogi will have 4/2 Slot Lay Out and 150/150 PG/CPU after turrets -A Sagaris will have 5/2 and 175/175 PG/CPU after turrets -A Falchion would have 4/2 and 100/100 PG?CPU after turrets Comparatively Shield Extenders, Shield Hardeners, and Shield Boosters are expensive module to fit. Costing anywhere between 35/35 and 50/50 (or some combination of values to fit). However Heat Sinks, Tracking Computers, Tracking Enhancers, Damage Modules, etc only cost between 1/1 and 10/10 (or some combination of these values). In comparison an Enforcer Tank has superior hull HP attributes, but less fitting capacity. If a Gunnlogi could fit 2 Heavy Extenders, a Hardener, and a Passive Recharger (for a passive tank) an Enforcer could only fit a hardener and maybe a Light Shield Extender/ or booster...... encouraging them to use the rest of their PG and CPU on Weapons Upgrades. I was thinking we could add in a built in module like LLAV's had and LOGI dropships had. Enforcer built in example modules with no cost to slots- (not Particularly powerful) -heat sink (10-20%) -turret rotation mod -ect. Marauder built in with no expense to slots- -Siege- Tank gets 15-20% passive shield/armor hardener for 30 secs, cool down 1 minute depending on whether it is Sagaris or Surya. -ect. I don't know, just think it's cool. teammates will be noted when siege module is activated. Like a distress signal. Why- because they will help the role without making them permanent and OP. You would agree and I would too if Marauders with 5/2 layout have passive 20% resistances but with built in modules they can for a limited time. This creates a whole new dynamic play style. Marauders would engage when siege modules are ready as back up. When not recharged, it might not be such a good idea to engage say an Enforcer tank. The modules would be their to give a little extra out of the performance of your tank. Now what worries me are multiple hardeners. A Sagaris driving around with 3 hardeners and two heavy complex shield extenders along with a siege module ready to go. I would limit hardeners to two, I would also make it so when siege module is active, all previously active modules be shut off. Seige module would have to be better than a hardener or something. And uh, who took a duke in this thread? Also, if the std blaster is not more accurate than a mlt blaster, it needs slightly less dispersion increase per shot, it's stupidly inaccurate. The sagris won't be able to kill crap, as missiles and rails are terrible for AI.
First off lets work on what we have not to balance HAV aka modules we fit to our own tanks. That way we know at a fundamental level the modules at least work.
Regarding the Large Blaster...... there is a lot of work that can be done on that.
I wholly believe the large blaster could do with a per shot damage buff to the Scattered Blaster Variant levels mainly to improve the over all turret DPS which would still be very low. That or the blaster could be wholly redesigned.
The thing about the old Marauder tanks that most people who AV now think they understand is that a maxxed out HAV pilot had usually 150.1 damage per shot with a 30% damage boost without modules. Couple that with Low Slot damage mods and you have a 200+ damage per shot weapon and well over 1400 DPS.
Arguably that is where the blasters DPS should be vs the Rail gun..... but that's a whole different topic.
A Siege Module if introduce would have to be its own module. Basically what they do is improve all resistances by a set amount, damage by a set amount, and rep rates by a set amount but have a strict and unalterable duration and cool down where the Marauder cannot move at all.
In Dust something like this would be too OP and also crippling to a tank. If a Siege Module were in the game it would have to be something like an Improved Damage Control Unit.
*"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
|
duster 35000
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
102
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 11:22:00 -
[245] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:duster 35000 wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:True Adamance wrote:Sir Dukey wrote:
Enforcer is suppose to be less tanked than the Standard Main Battle Tank but a lot more damage, Marauder is suppose to have a lot more tank ever the standard.
I believe we can achieve that. Following eHP values of Enforcer Tank < Cruiser Tank < Marauder Tank E.G -A Gunlogi will have 4/2 Slot Lay Out and 150/150 PG/CPU after turrets -A Sagaris will have 5/2 and 175/175 PG/CPU after turrets -A Falchion would have 4/2 and 100/100 PG?CPU after turrets Comparatively Shield Extenders, Shield Hardeners, and Shield Boosters are expensive module to fit. Costing anywhere between 35/35 and 50/50 (or some combination of values to fit). However Heat Sinks, Tracking Computers, Tracking Enhancers, Damage Modules, etc only cost between 1/1 and 10/10 (or some combination of these values). In comparison an Enforcer Tank has superior hull HP attributes, but less fitting capacity. If a Gunnlogi could fit 2 Heavy Extenders, a Hardener, and a Passive Recharger (for a passive tank) an Enforcer could only fit a hardener and maybe a Light Shield Extender/ or booster...... encouraging them to use the rest of their PG and CPU on Weapons Upgrades. I was thinking we could add in a built in module like LLAV's had and LOGI dropships had. Enforcer built in example modules with no cost to slots- (not Particularly powerful) -heat sink (10-20%) -turret rotation mod -ect. Marauder built in with no expense to slots- -Siege- Tank gets 15-20% passive shield/armor hardener for 30 secs, cool down 1 minute depending on whether it is Sagaris or Surya. -ect. I don't know, just think it's cool. teammates will be noted when siege module is activated. Like a distress signal. Why- because they will help the role without making them permanent and OP. You would agree and I would too if Marauders with 5/2 layout have passive 20% resistances but with built in modules they can for a limited time. This creates a whole new dynamic play style. Marauders would engage when siege modules are ready as back up. When not recharged, it might not be such a good idea to engage say an Enforcer tank. The modules would be their to give a little extra out of the performance of your tank. Now what worries me are multiple hardeners. A Sagaris driving around with 3 hardeners and two heavy complex shield extenders along with a siege module ready to go. I would limit hardeners to two, I would also make it so when siege module is active, all previously active modules be shut off. Seige module would have to be better than a hardener or something. And uh, who took a duke in this thread? Also, if the std blaster is not more accurate than a mlt blaster, it needs slightly less dispersion increase per shot, it's stupidly inaccurate. The sagris won't be able to kill crap, as missiles and rails are terrible for AI. First off lets work on what we have not to balance HAV aka modules we fit to our own tanks. That way we know at a fundamental level the modules at least work. Regarding the Large Blaster...... there is a lot of work that can be done on that. I wholly believe the large blaster could do with a per shot damage buff to the Scattered Blaster Variant levels mainly to improve the over all turret DPS which would still be very low. That or the blaster could be wholly redesigned. The thing about the old Marauder tanks that most people who AV now think they understand is that a maxxed out HAV pilot had usually 150.1 damage per shot with a 30% damage boost without modules. Couple that with Low Slot damage mods and you have a 200+ damage per shot weapon and well over 1400 DPS. Arguably that is where the blasters DPS should be vs the Rail gun..... but that's a whole different topic. A Siege Module if introduce would have to be its own module. Basically what they do is improve all resistances by a set amount, damage by a set amount, and rep rates by a set amount but have a strict and unalterable duration and cool down where the Marauder cannot move at all. In Dust something like this would be too OP and also crippling to a tank. If a Siege Module were in the game it would have to be something like an Improved Damage Control Unit.
I guess.
maybe slight armor regen too on the seige mod?
But, the blaster needs a small accuracy buff, good luck killing forge gunners, it's even worse by walls, I use a mlt one for now as I never got large turret operation, although I do have xt small missiles.
Choo Choo
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4043
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 15:43:00 -
[246] - Quote
While the discussion is great, I think we way be getting a little carried away with deeper level ideas. Perhaps we should refocus on a couple core issues that need to be hammered out first.
1. Consideration of increasing slot layout to 4/2 and 2/4 with a decrease base HP for balancing purposes
2. Address discrepancy between regen and eHP for shields vs armor (Possibly focus on reintroduction of 180mm Armor Plates to push Armor HP higher while shields maintain higher regen)
3. Address discrepancy between fitting capability of Gunnlogi vs Madrugar
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
Lazer Fo Cused
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
261
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 15:52:00 -
[247] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:While the discussion is great, I think we way be getting a little carried away with deeper level ideas. Perhaps we should refocus on a couple core issues that need to be hammered out first.
1. Consideration of increasing slot layout to 4/2 and 2/4 with a decrease base HP for balancing purposes
2. Address discrepancy between regen and eHP for shields vs armor (Possibly focus on reintroduction of 180mm Armor Plates to push Armor HP higher while shields maintain higher regen)
3. Address discrepancy between fitting capability of Gunnlogi vs Madrugar
1. I hope thats for the standard HAVs we have
2. All modules from chrome should be brough back, active armor reppers and nerf passive, constant passive shield regen needs to come back along with the modules to boost passive regen
3. Agree |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4044
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 16:02:00 -
[248] - Quote
Lazer Fo Cused wrote:
1. I hope thats for the standard HAVs we have
2. All modules from chrome should be brough back, active armor reppers and nerf passive, constant passive shield regen needs to come back along with the modules to boost passive regen
3. Agree
1. Yeah, I'm not satisfied with the flexibility of fitting on HAVs in general. Instead of going crazy with trying to keep base HP the same and tweak modules to make it all work, I think it may be simpler to just reduce the base HP and increase the number of slots. Similar levels of eHP would still be obtainable as they are now, but using similar existing module values (Some tweaking between shield and armor may be needed, but Im speaking in general terms). Not to mention I want to shift away from high Hull HP and focus more on the modules. LAVs would do well under this philosophy as well.
2. Active Armor reps would be good, though I'm not opposed to the idea of lighter passive reps for a "cap stable" fit in addition to active reps. Reactive Plates maybe? You could make shields constantly recharging though their regen rate would need to be adjusted. The current 168 is extremely good even with a 4 second delay. I also would not be opposed to the idea of keeping current regen and delay but offering up Shield Regs to reduce the delay. We're lacking in low slot modules for vehicles anyways (funny considering Dropsuits have the opposite problem)
3. I mean here's my deal, if you don't want to nerf shield resources thats fine, but they have enough to fit full proto shield mods AND armor plates, the Madrugar needs to be able to do the same and add shield extenders. Obviously I prefer a more pure tanking philosophy when it comes to vehicles though, so I'd rather find ways to prevent/discourage the use of armor modules on the Gunnlogi, and allow the Madrugar to fit full Complex modules in its lows and still have room for utility modules in the highs.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
Shadow of War88
0uter.Heaven
478
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 16:03:00 -
[249] - Quote
Lazer Fo Cused wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:While the discussion is great, I think we way be getting a little carried away with deeper level ideas. Perhaps we should refocus on a couple core issues that need to be hammered out first.
1. Consideration of increasing slot layout to 4/2 and 2/4 with a decrease base HP for balancing purposes
2. Address discrepancy between regen and eHP for shields vs armor (Possibly focus on reintroduction of 180mm Armor Plates to push Armor HP higher while shields maintain higher regen)
3. Address discrepancy between fitting capability of Gunnlogi vs Madrugar 1. I hope thats for the standard HAVs we have 2. All modules from chrome should be brough back, active armor reppers and nerf passive, constant passive shield regen needs to come back along with the modules to boost passive regen 3. Agree
1. yes!
2. bring the plates, n lay off the shield regen dude
3 yes!
4. More skills that aren't worthless.
& justice for all
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
2583
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 16:07:00 -
[250] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:
1. Consideration of increasing slot layout to 4/2 and 2/4 with a decrease base HP for balancing purposes
Why reduce base HP only to have to use a module to make up for what we had?
2. Address discrepancy between regen and eHP for shields vs armor (Possibly focus on reintroduction of 180mm Armor Plates to push Armor HP higher while shields maintain higher regen)
From what I understand about EVE lore, Caldari shields constantly regenerate with no stopping no matter how much damage is taken, and the Gallente prefer reps over max armor such as the Amarr do. Could of course have a short delay before the regen restarts for shields when they're depleted.
3. Address discrepancy between fitting capability of Gunnlogi vs Madrugar
They both need to have their CPU, PG, armor and shield skill back on par with infantry, as well as a little more base CPU and PG overall.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
|
|
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Shadow of War88
0uter.Heaven
478
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 16:08:00 -
[251] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Lazer Fo Cused wrote:
1. I hope thats for the standard HAVs we have
2. All modules from chrome should be brough back, active armor reppers and nerf passive, constant passive shield regen needs to come back along with the modules to boost passive regen
3. Agree
1. Yeah, I'm not satisfied with the flexibility of fitting on HAVs in general. Instead of going crazy with trying to keep base HP the same and tweak modules to make it all work, I think it may be simpler to just reduce the base HP and increase the number of slots. Similar levels of eHP would still be obtainable as they are now, but using similar existing module values (Some tweaking between shield and armor may be needed, but Im speaking in general terms). Not to mention I want to shift away from high Hull HP and focus more on the modules. LAVs would do well under this philosophy as well. 2. Active Armor reps would be good, though I'm not opposed to the idea of lighter passive reps for a "cap stable" fit in addition to active reps. Reactive Plates maybe? You could make shields constantly recharging though their regen rate would need to be adjusted. The current 168 is extremely good even with a 4 second delay. I also would not be opposed to the idea of keeping current regen and delay but offering up Shield Regs to reduce the delay. We're lacking in low slot modules for vehicles anyways (funny considering Dropsuits have the opposite problem) 3. I mean here's my deal, if you don't want to nerf shield resources thats fine, but they have enough to fit full proto shield mods AND armor plates, the Madrugar needs to be able to do the same and add shield extenders. Obviously I prefer a more pure tanking philosophy when it comes to vehicles though, so I'd rather find ways to prevent/discourage the use of armor modules on the Gunnlogi, and allow the Madrugar to fit full Complex modules in its lows and still have room for utility modules in the highs.
@3. Hardeners are the cheap modules. If you use shield extenders or booster you wont have enough PG for plates.
& justice for all
|
DarthJT5
12th Shadow Legion
154
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 16:11:00 -
[252] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
1. Consideration of increasing slot layout to 4/2 and 2/4 with a decrease base HP for balancing purposes
Why reduce base HP only to have to use a module to make up for what we had?
2. Address discrepancy between regen and eHP for shields vs armor (Possibly focus on reintroduction of 180mm Armor Plates to push Armor HP higher while shields maintain higher regen)
From what I understand about EVE lore, Caldari shields constantly regenerate with no stopping no matter how much damage is taken, and the Gallente prefer reps over max armor such as the Amarr do. Could of course have a short delay before the regen restarts for shields when they're depleted.
3. Address discrepancy between fitting capability of Gunnlogi vs Madrugar
They both need to have their CPU, PG, armor and shield skill back on par with infantry, as well as a little more base CPU and PG overall.
@ #1, so we can have more variety in our fittings. 4 slots with ok base stats is better than 3 slots with good base stats. I'm tired of seeing about 4 different tank fittings on the field. Adding in old mods + another slot goes a lot towards personalizing tanks.
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Up and coming Python pilot.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
|
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4044
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 16:16:00 -
[253] - Quote
Shadow of War88 wrote:@3. Hardeners are the cheap modules. If you use shield extenders or booster you wont have enough PG for plates.
While that may be true, the fitting options for the Madrugar are still far more limited. Not to mention that if memory serve the average eHP on a 2 Hardener 1 Extender fit is not much different than a 1 hardener 2 extender fit, and since effective recharge is better with more hardeners, the two extender fit is arguably inferior...especially since the 2 hardener fit can also fit plates.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
Lazer Fo Cused
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
263
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 16:24:00 -
[254] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Lazer Fo Cused wrote:
1. I hope thats for the standard HAVs we have
2. All modules from chrome should be brough back, active armor reppers and nerf passive, constant passive shield regen needs to come back along with the modules to boost passive regen
3. Agree
1. Yeah, I'm not satisfied with the flexibility of fitting on HAVs in general. Instead of going crazy with trying to keep base HP the same and tweak modules to make it all work, I think it may be simpler to just reduce the base HP and increase the number of slots. Similar levels of eHP would still be obtainable as they are now, but using similar existing module values (Some tweaking between shield and armor may be needed, but Im speaking in general terms). Not to mention I want to shift away from high Hull HP and focus more on the modules. LAVs would do well under this philosophy as well. 2. Active Armor reps would be good, though I'm not opposed to the idea of lighter passive reps for a "cap stable" fit in addition to active reps. Reactive Plates maybe? You could make shields constantly recharging though their regen rate would need to be adjusted. The current 168 is extremely good even with a 4 second delay. I also would not be opposed to the idea of keeping current regen and delay but offering up Shield Regs to reduce the delay. We're lacking in low slot modules for vehicles anyways (funny considering Dropsuits have the opposite problem) 3. I mean here's my deal, if you don't want to nerf shield resources thats fine, but they have enough to fit full proto shield mods AND armor plates, the Madrugar needs to be able to do the same and add shield extenders. Obviously I prefer a more pure tanking philosophy when it comes to vehicles though, so I'd rather find ways to prevent/discourage the use of armor modules on the Gunnlogi, and allow the Madrugar to fit full Complex modules in its lows and still have room for utility modules in the highs.
2. Cap stable requires the capacitor which is much more needed - It is the core of balance
2a. While shield regs reduce the delay cannot forget that shield extenders do increase the passive rate of regen
3. The Gunlogi can put on all PROTO modules and turrets but its low slots will be used for CPU/PG expansion mods which are also proto but are needed to fit the tank or turrets or both - Its not ideal but better than the madrugar which can barely fit on everything enchanced but nowhere able to fit full proto and fill all slot spaces - Proto sentinal on the otherhand can fit everything proto on it
3a. The variety of modules which were removed from both tanks has lead to this, in my gunlogi i could fit PDS/DCU with nanofibres or dmg mods which happened to be passive - Madrugar on the flip side had heat sinks and scanners/nitros - if there are options to fit then they will be used because they were in chrome and uprising |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4044
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 16:52:00 -
[255] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
1. Consideration of increasing slot layout to 4/2 and 2/4 with a decrease base HP for balancing purposes
Why reduce base HP only to have to use a module to make up for what we had?
2. Address discrepancy between regen and eHP for shields vs armor (Possibly focus on reintroduction of 180mm Armor Plates to push Armor HP higher while shields maintain higher regen)
From what I understand about EVE lore, Caldari shields constantly regenerate with no stopping no matter how much damage is taken, and the Gallente prefer reps over max armor such as the Amarr do. Could of course have a short delay before the regen restarts for shields when they're depleted.
3. Address discrepancy between fitting capability of Gunnlogi vs Madrugar
They both need to have their CPU, PG, armor and shield skill back on par with infantry, as well as a little more base CPU and PG overall.
1. This is a push to make the modules on the vehicle matter more than the hull itself. In particular its a nerf to Militia vehicles as a whole who enjoy relatively high eHP without fitting good/any modules. This is particularly evident in LAVs as well. Vehicle hulls should be relatively weak when unfit and their strength should be largely based off the strength what they put in their slots.
Additionally it offers more options for fitting by allowing for more slots and this more flexibility if how you want to tweak and fit your vehicle. Ideally you should be able to maintain the same defensive power as you do now with the 3/2 system, but if you choose to forgo a defensive slot for a utility one, the impact is far less.
2. Its difficult to make a direct comparison to EVE. For one shields in EVE don't regen at a constant rate, their regen rate is based directly off how much shield HP they have. That is to say there is no "HP/s" regen rate, there is a "Time to fully recharge" Adding more HP doesn't change how long it takes to fully recharge and thus the rate effectively increases. In addition the rate at which shields recharge is not constant. at 1% shields regen is extremely slow, at 50% shields it is at its peach recharge rate, and at 99% is is extremely slow. Basically think of it like a bell curve. In other words, if you passive tank a shield ship, it takes an extremely long time to naturally recharge back to 100% shields, you'll tend to float around 50-70% because thats when your tank is at its strongest. It also means that if your shields drop below 50%, your tank gets weaker the more damage you take, because your recharge rate will decrease the closer to 0% shields you become.
So while no shield delay may appealing, do understand that the constant-passive regen of shields in EVE is not without additional downsides that you don't experience in Dust.
3. Well skills aside, the Gunnlogi can easily fit a much higher meta level fit than a Madrugar can, I think this difference needs to be fixed first.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
Kaze Eyrou
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
1139
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 16:57:00 -
[256] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Main Battle Tank - HAV
Marauder - Same (with tweaks)
Gunnlogi - Same (with tweaks)
TIL CCP will be changing to Madrugar's name to Marauder, confusing future tankers. 
CB Vet // Logi Bro // @KazeEyrou
Learning Coalition Mentor // Bug Vaporizer
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4044
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Posted - 2014.12.18 17:01:00 -
[257] - Quote
Lazer Fo Cused wrote:
2. Cap stable requires the capacitor which is much more needed - It is the core of balance
2a. While shield regs reduce the delay cannot forget that shield extenders do increase the passive rate of regen
3. The Gunlogi can put on all PROTO modules and turrets but its low slots will be used for CPU/PG expansion mods which are also proto but are needed to fit the tank or turrets or both - Its not ideal but better than the madrugar which can barely fit on everything enchanced but nowhere able to fit full proto and fill all slot spaces - Proto sentinal on the otherhand can fit everything proto on it
3a. The variety of modules which were removed from both tanks has lead to this, in my gunlogi i could fit PDS/DCU with nanofibres or dmg mods which happened to be passive - Madrugar on the flip side had heat sinks and scanners/nitros - if there are options to fit then they will be used because they were in chrome and uprising
2. I say "cap stable" in quotes as to mean, armor reps that run constantly and don't need to be cycled like a normal active rep. Call it a passive fit if you prefer.
2a. Not in Dust? Unless I've gone totally insane, I'm fairly certain there is currently no way to increase the natural rep rate of shields in Dust (Boosters obviously increase effective rep rate, but you get what I mean.) In EVE, sure, extenders increase regen rate, effectively.
3. You can actually fit a Standard Large Turret, 2 Complex Hardeners and 1 Complex Shield Extender without the need for any PG/CPU upgrade modules, and have enough change leftover to put on utility, plates, ect. (Though the plate *might* require a PG upgrade in the second low slot...I forget offhand). Madrugar can fit 1 Standard Large Turret, 1 Complex Repper, 1 Complex Plate, and 1 Complex Hardener and at that point its pretty much capped out on CPU. It cant fit anything in the highs or any small turrets. At the very least the Madrugar needs more resources to work with.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Lazer Fo Cused
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
263
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Posted - 2014.12.18 17:35:00 -
[258] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Lazer Fo Cused wrote:
2. Cap stable requires the capacitor which is much more needed - It is the core of balance
2a. While shield regs reduce the delay cannot forget that shield extenders do increase the passive rate of regen
3. The Gunlogi can put on all PROTO modules and turrets but its low slots will be used for CPU/PG expansion mods which are also proto but are needed to fit the tank or turrets or both - Its not ideal but better than the madrugar which can barely fit on everything enchanced but nowhere able to fit full proto and fill all slot spaces - Proto sentinal on the otherhand can fit everything proto on it
3a. The variety of modules which were removed from both tanks has lead to this, in my gunlogi i could fit PDS/DCU with nanofibres or dmg mods which happened to be passive - Madrugar on the flip side had heat sinks and scanners/nitros - if there are options to fit then they will be used because they were in chrome and uprising
2. I say "cap stable" in quotes as to mean, armor reps that run constantly and don't need to be cycled like a normal active rep. Call it a passive fit if you prefer. 2a. Not in Dust? Unless I've gone totally insane, I'm fairly certain there is currently no way to increase the natural rep rate of shields in Dust (Boosters obviously increase effective rep rate, but you get what I mean.) In EVE, sure, extenders increase regen rate, effectively. 3. You can actually fit a Standard Large Turret, 2 Complex Hardeners and 1 Complex Shield Extender without the need for any PG/CPU upgrade modules, and have enough change leftover to put on utility, plates, ect. (Though the plate *might* require a PG upgrade in the second low slot...I forget offhand). Madrugar can fit 1 Standard Large Turret, 1 Complex Repper, 1 Complex Plate, and 1 Complex Hardener and at that point its pretty much capped out on CPU. It cant fit anything in the highs or any small turrets. At the very least the Madrugar needs more resources to work with. EDIT: Ok so I checked it out, assuming Protofits is correct...for a tanky, OK DPS Gunnlogi you can fit 1 Complex Heavy Shield Extender 2 Complex Shield Hardeners 1 Enhanced 120mm Armor Plate 1 Complex Ammo Cache 1 Standard Large Railgun For a Madrugar 1 Complex 120mm Armor Plate 1 Complex Heavy Armor Repairer 1 Complex Armor Hardener *Nothing in the High Slots* 1 Standard Large Blaster So even without PG/CPU modules, the Gunnlogi is capable of fitting an additional Enhanced HP module over the Madrugar. The Ammo Cache is kinda mute point because its 0CPU/0PG, but again nothing like that exists in the high slots so the Madrugar kinda gets boned on that too. Thing is the PG on the Madrugar fit is still going strong, its the CPU thats severely limiting. I'd really love if I could fit my Madrugar with the above fit with enough CPU to handle a Fuel Injector and a Scanner, or hell even a damage mod.
2a. EVE aka New Eden - Whats in New Eden should be in DUST
3. Standard - Not proto
3a. Your fit is not all proto - My sentinal at proto doesnt have that problem and it doesnt need PG/CPU modules either, it can tank and increase its dmg for its proto weapons
3b. Madrugar sucks when you have 2 slots you effectively cannot use unless you want to gimp yourself
3c. This essentially has been caused by the removal of skills with useful skill bonuses and lack of variety in modules hence dual tanking gunlogis, also having vehicles with such a low amount of PG/CPU is just terrible and it even happened with Enforcers which had milita stats - It doesnt help in EVE i have T1 then 4 other variety of modules then T2 followed by faction/officer and deadspace modules which all have diff stats and that included fitting requirements
3d. Tiercide or adv/proto hulls - It needs to be sorted once and for all because either way i want proto modules on everything and should be able to fit it like i can my infantry suits with all proto |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4044
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 17:59:00 -
[259] - Quote
2a. *facepalm* whatever. Currently they don't in Dust.
3. Lol I wasn't trying to illustrate a "full proto" fit, I was trying to illustrate that with equal weapons, the Gunnlogi has better fitting capabilities than the Madrugar, even without the use of PG/CPU Upgrades. The general lack of resources is an entirely different issue. It would be best to balance fitting of the two tanks against each other before we start increasing them both, yes? Bringing back the +% to PG/CPU skills won't change the disparity between the two, so I'd like to tackle that first if you don't mind.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
DarthJT5
12th Shadow Legion
156
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 18:07:00 -
[260] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:2a. *facepalm* whatever. Currently they don't in Dust.
3. Lol I wasn't trying to illustrate a "full proto" fit, I was trying to illustrate that with equal weapons, the Gunnlogi has better fitting capabilities than the Madrugar, even without the use of PG/CPU Upgrades. The general lack of resources is an entirely different issue. It would be best to balance fitting of the two tanks against each other before we start increasing them both, yes? Bringing back the +% to PG/CPU skills won't change the disparity between the two, so I'd like to tackle that first if you don't mind.
Increase PG cost of plates while reducing cup costs, along with a Madrugar CPU buff and I think problem is solved
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Up and coming Python pilot.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4044
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Posted - 2014.12.18 18:19:00 -
[261] - Quote
DarthJT5 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:2a. *facepalm* whatever. Currently they don't in Dust.
3. Lol I wasn't trying to illustrate a "full proto" fit, I was trying to illustrate that with equal weapons, the Gunnlogi has better fitting capabilities than the Madrugar, even without the use of PG/CPU Upgrades. The general lack of resources is an entirely different issue. It would be best to balance fitting of the two tanks against each other before we start increasing them both, yes? Bringing back the +% to PG/CPU skills won't change the disparity between the two, so I'd like to tackle that first if you don't mind. Increase PG cost of plates while reducing CPU costs, along with a Madrugar CPU buff and I think problem is solved
Would also like to factor in 180mm Plates. I'd kinda consider them the standard Madrugar plate which would cost more PG, so you don't want to increase the cost on plates *too* much. Would a PG reduction on the Gunnlogi be more appropriate to discourage plate use without a PG enhancer? Perhaps a mix of both?
Could also increase PG of Madrugar is the Plate increase is too expensive for it to handle.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
16111
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 18:34:00 -
[262] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:
2. Active Armor reps would be good, though I'm not opposed to the idea of lighter passive reps for a "cap stable" fit in addition to active reps. Reactive Plates maybe? You could make shields constantly recharging though their regen rate would need to be adjusted. The current 168 is extremely good even with a 4 second delay. I also would not be opposed to the idea of keeping current regen and delay but offering up Shield Regs to reduce the delay. We're lacking in low slot modules for vehicles anyways (funny considering Dropsuits have the opposite problem)
Theres honestly no reason to have shield delay mechanics when Constant passive regen ala EVE already worked and worked well.
*"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4044
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 18:38:00 -
[263] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
2. Active Armor reps would be good, though I'm not opposed to the idea of lighter passive reps for a "cap stable" fit in addition to active reps. Reactive Plates maybe? You could make shields constantly recharging though their regen rate would need to be adjusted. The current 168 is extremely good even with a 4 second delay. I also would not be opposed to the idea of keeping current regen and delay but offering up Shield Regs to reduce the delay. We're lacking in low slot modules for vehicles anyways (funny considering Dropsuits have the opposite problem)
Theres honestly no reason to have shield delay mechanics when Constant passive regen ala EVE already worked and worked well.
That's fine, as long as it actually mimics EVE mechanics. I get the impression that the HP/s regen is hard coded in there. They would have to code all of the other intricacies of shield recharge from EVE, which is fine if they actually do it. However I doubt something like that is on the table.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
2585
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 18:40:00 -
[264] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Bringing back the +% to PG/CPU skills won't change the disparity between the two, so I'd like to tackle that first if you don't mind.
No, but it would make fitting whatever we want on it a hell of a lot easier.
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
16111
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 18:40:00 -
[265] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:True Adamance wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
2. Active Armor reps would be good, though I'm not opposed to the idea of lighter passive reps for a "cap stable" fit in addition to active reps. Reactive Plates maybe? You could make shields constantly recharging though their regen rate would need to be adjusted. The current 168 is extremely good even with a 4 second delay. I also would not be opposed to the idea of keeping current regen and delay but offering up Shield Regs to reduce the delay. We're lacking in low slot modules for vehicles anyways (funny considering Dropsuits have the opposite problem)
Theres honestly no reason to have shield delay mechanics when Constant passive regen ala EVE already worked and worked well. That's fine, as long as it actually mimics EVE mechanics. I get the impression that the HP/s regen is hard coded in there. They would have to code all of the other intricacies of shield recharge from EVE, which is fine if they actually do it. However I doubt something like that is on the table.
I know the Shield Regn mechanics you refer to but do you really consider that necessary. Surely something closer to which lays the foundations is superior to something that...... doesn't represent Shield mechanics at all?
*"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
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Spkr4theDead
Red Star.
EoN.
2585
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 18:42:00 -
[266] - Quote
DarthJT5 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:2a. *facepalm* whatever. Currently they don't in Dust.
3. Lol I wasn't trying to illustrate a "full proto" fit, I was trying to illustrate that with equal weapons, the Gunnlogi has better fitting capabilities than the Madrugar, even without the use of PG/CPU Upgrades. The general lack of resources is an entirely different issue. It would be best to balance fitting of the two tanks against each other before we start increasing them both, yes? Bringing back the +% to PG/CPU skills won't change the disparity between the two, so I'd like to tackle that first if you don't mind. Increase PG cost of plates while reducing CPU costs, along with a Madrugar CPU buff and I think problem is solved
The Madrugar doesn't have enough PG to fit what you want on it. Why would you further gimp the armor tank by increasing the PG cost of plates even more?
I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4044
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 18:47:00 -
[267] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:True Adamance wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
2. Active Armor reps would be good, though I'm not opposed to the idea of lighter passive reps for a "cap stable" fit in addition to active reps. Reactive Plates maybe? You could make shields constantly recharging though their regen rate would need to be adjusted. The current 168 is extremely good even with a 4 second delay. I also would not be opposed to the idea of keeping current regen and delay but offering up Shield Regs to reduce the delay. We're lacking in low slot modules for vehicles anyways (funny considering Dropsuits have the opposite problem)
Theres honestly no reason to have shield delay mechanics when Constant passive regen ala EVE already worked and worked well. That's fine, as long as it actually mimics EVE mechanics. I get the impression that the HP/s regen is hard coded in there. They would have to code all of the other intricacies of shield recharge from EVE, which is fine if they actually do it. However I doubt something like that is on the table. I know the Shield Regn mechanics you refer to but do you really consider that necessary. Surely something closer to which lays the foundations is superior to something that...... doesn't represent Shield mechanics at all?
Fair enough but do you think it should maintain the same HP/s if the delay was removed?
And Spkr, I agree that an overall increase to resources may be in order (especially if the 4th slot is added) but I think we both agree that the Madrugar needs a bit more of a buff than the Gunnlogi at this time.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
|
DarthJT5
12th Shadow Legion
157
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 18:57:00 -
[268] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:DarthJT5 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:2a. *facepalm* whatever. Currently they don't in Dust.
3. Lol I wasn't trying to illustrate a "full proto" fit, I was trying to illustrate that with equal weapons, the Gunnlogi has better fitting capabilities than the Madrugar, even without the use of PG/CPU Upgrades. The general lack of resources is an entirely different issue. It would be best to balance fitting of the two tanks against each other before we start increasing them both, yes? Bringing back the +% to PG/CPU skills won't change the disparity between the two, so I'd like to tackle that first if you don't mind. Increase PG cost of plates while reducing CPU costs, along with a Madrugar CPU buff and I think problem is solved The Madrugar doesn't have enough PG to fit what you want on it. Why would you further gimp the armor tank by increasing the PG cost of plates even more?
I was on the understanding that the Madrugar needed more CPU, not PG. I'm sorry, I don't use them
Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta.
Up and coming Python pilot.
The awnser is always XT missiles....
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
16111
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 19:00:00 -
[269] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:True Adamance wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:True Adamance wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
2. Active Armor reps would be good, though I'm not opposed to the idea of lighter passive reps for a "cap stable" fit in addition to active reps. Reactive Plates maybe? You could make shields constantly recharging though their regen rate would need to be adjusted. The current 168 is extremely good even with a 4 second delay. I also would not be opposed to the idea of keeping current regen and delay but offering up Shield Regs to reduce the delay. We're lacking in low slot modules for vehicles anyways (funny considering Dropsuits have the opposite problem)
Theres honestly no reason to have shield delay mechanics when Constant passive regen ala EVE already worked and worked well. That's fine, as long as it actually mimics EVE mechanics. I get the impression that the HP/s regen is hard coded in there. They would have to code all of the other intricacies of shield recharge from EVE, which is fine if they actually do it. However I doubt something like that is on the table. I know the Shield Regn mechanics you refer to but do you really consider that necessary. Surely something closer to which lays the foundations is superior to something that...... doesn't represent Shield mechanics at all? Fair enough but do you think it should maintain the same HP/s if the delay was removed? And Spkr, I agree that an overall increase to resources may be in order (especially if the 4th slot is added) but I think we both agree that the Madrugar needs a bit more of a buff than the Gunnlogi at this time.
NEVER.
No vehicle deserves a passive 168 regen per second for not having to fit anything......especially if new tanks are going to have 4+ slots and old modules are coming back.
For a tank they should be down below 100 (even when buffed by modules) so that damage applied to a Shield HAV last longer on the hull like it does for an armour tank.
*"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4044
|
Posted - 2014.12.18 19:01:00 -
[270] - Quote
DarthJT5 wrote:Spkr4theDead wrote:DarthJT5 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:2a. *facepalm* whatever. Currently they don't in Dust.
3. Lol I wasn't trying to illustrate a "full proto" fit, I was trying to illustrate that with equal weapons, the Gunnlogi has better fitting capabilities than the Madrugar, even without the use of PG/CPU Upgrades. The general lack of resources is an entirely different issue. It would be best to balance fitting of the two tanks against each other before we start increasing them both, yes? Bringing back the +% to PG/CPU skills won't change the disparity between the two, so I'd like to tackle that first if you don't mind. Increase PG cost of plates while reducing CPU costs, along with a Madrugar CPU buff and I think problem is solved The Madrugar doesn't have enough PG to fit what you want on it. Why would you further gimp the armor tank by increasing the PG cost of plates even more? I was on the understanding that the Madrugar needed more CPU, not PG. I'm sorry, I don't use them
Well it really depends on what you're fitting. Blasters are very PG intensive so higher leveled ones are going to require more PG. I would say that in general the Madrugar needs both PG and CPU, though CPU to a larger degree.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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