2a. *facepalm* whatever. Currently they don't in Dust.

3. Lol I wasn't trying to illustrate a "full proto" fit, I was trying to illustrate that with equal weapons, the Gunnlogi has better fitting capabilities than the Madrugar, even without the use of PG/CPU Upgrades. The general lack of resources is an entirely different issue. It would be best to balance fitting of the two tanks against each other before we start increasing them both, yes? Bringing back the +% to PG/CPU skills won't change the disparity between the two, so I'd like to tackle that first if you don't mind.

NEVER.

No vehicle deserves a passive 168 regen per second for not having to fit anything......especially if new tanks are going to have 4+ slots and old modules are coming back.

For a tank they should be down below 100 (even when buffed by modules) so that damage applied to a Shield HAV last longer on the hull like it does for an armour tank.

While the discussion is great, I think we way be getting a little carried away with deeper level ideas. Perhaps we should refocus on a couple core issues that need to be hammered out first.

1. Consideration of increasing slot layout to 4/2 and 2/4 with a decrease base HP for balancing purposes
2. Address discrepancy between regen and eHP for shields vs armor (Possibly focus on reintroduction of 180mm Armor Plates to push Armor HP higher while shields maintain higher regen)
3. Address discrepancy between fitting capability of Gunnlogi vs Madrugar

168 reps per second with a 4 second delay is pathetically slow...and once hardener stacking is fixed shields will never be able to win cqc vs a blaster, atleast blaster vs blaster, more damage to shields and shields can't rep...

#1 for the marauders? Hell no...

168 reps per second with a 4 second delay is pathetically slow...and once hardener stacking is fixed shields will never be able to win cqc vs a blaster, atleast blaster vs blaster, more damage to shields and shields can't rep...

1. Yeah, I'm not satisfied with the flexibility of fitting on HAVs in general. Instead of going crazy with trying to keep base HP the same and tweak modules to make it all work, I think it may be simpler to just reduce the base HP and increase the number of slots. Similar levels of eHP would still be obtainable as they are now, but using similar existing module values (Some tweaking between shield and armor may be needed, but Im speaking in general terms). Not to mention I want to shift away from high Hull HP and focus more on the modules. LAVs would do well under this philosophy as well.

2. Active Armor reps would be good, though I'm not opposed to the idea of lighter passive reps for a "cap stable" fit in addition to active reps. Reactive Plates maybe? You could make shields constantly recharging though their regen rate would need to be adjusted. The current 168 is extremely good even with a 4 second delay. I also would not be opposed to the idea of keeping current regen and delay but offering up Shield Regs to reduce the delay. We're lacking in low slot modules for vehicles anyways (funny considering Dropsuits have the opposite problem)

3. I mean here's my deal, if you don't want to nerf shield resources thats fine, but they have enough to fit full proto shield mods AND armor plates, the Madrugar needs to be able to do the same and add shield extenders. Obviously I prefer a more pure tanking philosophy when it comes to vehicles though, so I'd rather find ways to prevent/discourage the use of armor modules on the Gunnlogi, and allow the Madrugar to fit full Complex modules in its lows and still have room for utility modules in the highs.

It's not slow at all. It's essentially what makes Shield HAV OP as hell.

They are able to rep at a prolific pace (3x the old statistics) for not having to fit a module meaning that any HAV pilot worth their salt can manage this overly powerful passive shield regeneration over the course of 20 seconds to have nullified almost all AV damage again them.

The reason tanks back in the day were good and balanced and arguably more skill intensive was because damage applied to a tank then was longer lasting and required the use of modules or multiple modules to repair.

No Tank, not shield, not armour deserves a meaningful regeneration without having to fit modules.

If you look at a Shield HAV vs an Armour HAV currently in any circumstance a Shield HAV will win. Hands down it is superior...so your assertion it is unfair that a Shield HAV has a down side in CQC in brawling........like (shock horror) Caldari tech would is moot.

Armour HAV, armour everything in New Eden has equivalent or more HP/eHP than shield variants. The reason for this is that armour itself does not regenerate, regeneration power being a huge factor of any conflict where TTK is measured in tens of seconds or minutes.

Now for the longest time since 1.7 Shield HAV has dominated in roles they should not be as powerful in annexing the Armour HAV from tactical and competitive use.

Armour Tanks, Gallente Tech, Gallente Tanks are designed to brawl up close and have the edge in CQC fights using powerful active reps to cover for their lack of any passive regeneration.

Shield Tanks, Caldari Tech, Caldari Tanks are designed to kite out at longer ranges and have the edge in ranged combat through superior access to damage modules (LOW SLOT MODULES) and slow natural regen alongside powerful spikes of Shield Boosts.

Now in the scenario you are discussion I am assuming you are talking about a passive tanked Gunnlogi, the kind that stacks Extenders and a Hardener..... THATS WHAT A PASSIVE TANK IS!

You guys do understand what passive and active tanks are the hall mark traits of them are?

Moreover the Blaster is the only HAV turret designed to take down shields. Your assertion that Shield HAV need a crutch or some advantage vs the ONLY large turret designed to take them down is moot.

I think the archetypes CCP Rattati has designed are fine in many respects.

Some of his examples from EVE are a little iffy but get the point across, and while he kind of lacks the real world parallels to draw from it's very easy to provide examples.

Tank Destroyers
Russian ISU -122
German Jagdpather

Heavy Infantry Tank
German PzKpfw VI Ausf H
American Sherman M4A2
Brittish Mk IV Churchill
Russian Kv-85

Light Tanks and Cruiser Tanks (Generalist Hulls you might even say)
Brittish Mk VIII Cromwell
American M10 Wolverine
German PzKpfw III
Russian T-34

However I am concerned that in his proposal we risk needlessly creating great disparities between the Hull types where they are not necessarily needed, in terms of movement, and tracking, etc.

I If I were to comment on the proposal I'd suggest basing the various version of concepts like the following (purely my opinion)

Gunlogi
Shield: 3000
Armour: 1200
Slot Lay Out: 4/2 (for now)
Design Philosophy: The Generalist Hull or Cruiser Light Tank is designed to do just what it's name implies. A tank with no specific mobility penalties or powerful guns the Cruiser tank provides fire support when and where it is required being provided with fair armour/shielding, average PG and CPU allotments, and fair mobility capabilities. It's uses are limitless and only trumped by specialist tanks.

Sagaris
Shield: 3120
Armour: 1000
Slot Lay Out: 5/2
Traits: A Heavy Armoured/Shielded Tank Designed to move alongside Infantry and support them with fire from it's main gun. Designed to engage other vehicles (LAV,MAV, ADS) and provide cover fire. It is slow and has thick protective layering.

Falchion
Shield: 3200
Armour: 1125
Slot Lay Out: 4/2
Design Philosophy: The Enforcer is a "protected gun system" designed to be used in concert with weapons support systems to deliver heavy and accurate anti vehicle fire from superior positions. It has a powerful main gun but lacks Power Grid and CPU processing support as all power is rerouted to the main cannon and thus has lighter armour

Madrugar
Shield: 1125
Armour: 3400
Slot Lay Out: 2/4
Design Philosophy: The Generalist Hull or Cruiser Light Tank is designed to do just what it's name implies. A tank with no specific mobility penalties or powerful guns the Cruiser tank provides fire support when and where it is required being provided with fair armour/shielding, average PG and CPU allotments, and fair mobility capabilities. It's uses are limitless and only trumped by specialist tanks.

Surya
Shields: 1000
Armour: 3560
Slot Lay Out: 2/5
Traits: A Heavy Armoured/Shielded Tank Designed to move alongside Infantry and support them with fire from it's main gun. Designed to engage other vehicles (LAV,MAV, ADS) and provide cover fire. It is slow and has thick protective layering.

Vayu
Shield: 980
Armour: 3625
Slot Lay Out: 4/2
Design Philosophy: The Enforcer is a "protected gun system" designed to be used in concert with weapons support systems to deliver heavy and accurate anti vehicle fire from superior positions. It has a powerful main gun but lacks Power Grid and CPU processing support as all power is rerouted to the main cannon and thus has lighter armour

I have Pumped up my suggestions slot allocation by 1 on its Primary Racial Side at the moment but may reduce it later after eHP calculations are fully complete and consideration for reintroduction of other modules (the old ones).

Wow, where did you get these stats?
A Sagaris having less base hp than a Gunnlogi and an enforcer- are you out of your mind? That doesn't make sense.

Wow, where did you get these stats?
A Sagaris having less base hp than a Gunnlogi and an enforcer- are you out of your mind? That doesn't make sense.


I would make sagaris 3325 shield, 1225 armor. Surya I would do 3650 armor, 1225 shield.

The point of that is that the power of a tank should lie in its modules. The Marauder tanks having a little less base hp is completely nullified by the extra slot. Again, customization>>>>> base stats

The point of that is that the power of a tank should lie in its modules. The Marauder tanks having a little less base hp is completely nullified by the extra slot. Again, customization>>>>> base stats

Less Base EHP.... almost like oh I don't know.....they used to. Also considering they have 1 extra module slot than the other variations their eHP is able to be much higher.

Gunnlogi (Old Hull) - Shields 3250 Armour 1250
Sagaris (Old Hull) - Shields 3120 Armour 1000

Checks and balances mate. That 200 HP the marauder looses over another hull is almost immediately made up for 2-3x over by that other module slot.

Also for the enforcers since they would not be able to fit as many eHP modules due to their low PG and CPU allotment would have a fair base hull value to make them competitive.

Nahh bro, it doesn't make sense. It's like giving the heavy suit less base HP than the Assault but with more assault. It wouldn't feel like a heavy. Anyway, I only added about 400 base HP which is only about 300 more than the base tank.

well, I guess it makes sense then. I'm for it. If this will bring back chromosome like tanking, I'm all for it. Or at least chromosome memories.

#1 for the marauders? Hell no...

What are you talking about, duster?

Adamance, what do you think a good regeneration time on a Gunnlogi should be? (I've been working on some fitting numbers to go with my bonuses)

I think on a passive tanked Shield HAV (this is an HAV without an Active Repair Module.....

A Regen Modded Tank could have a 100 second to full (from fully depleted)

A non Regen Modded HAV could be in excess of two and a half minutes.

Bearing in mind an Armour tank will never regenerate its HP unless assisted by a rep module or an outside source.
@ a Supply depot this is at a rate of 100 HP per second
Under friendly repairs that is maybe 150 per second but requires another player or you to leave your vehicle
Under an Active Repper that is 414 per pulse 5x for a 30 second duration and a 30 second cool down unmodified and assuming the old Efficienct Heavy Active Repper.

Remember these are passive benefits that only shield HAV have, they do not have to fit a module to get their primary HP tank to regenerate, this is a constant passive status that is not interrupted, and this is a statistic that will work in conjunction with with active regenerative modules.

Even lowered to the old values a Shield HAV will not only have greater regenerative power but an additional constant repair value while under fire amounting to what is effectively a small damage resistance buff.

I know it's a shield tanking only benefit, I was thinking somewhere in that ballpark to recharge, but on the lower end to maintain dust pacing, and then put a flat regen bonus on shield extenders to maintain the recharge time artificially...with the hopeful re-introduction of high buffer plates, and a rebalance of the fitting values, it will hopefully balance out in the end with the shear amount of armor that armor based HAVs could back

Reread above post I amended it with the basic old HAV numbers.

Again the above suggestion of between 100 seconds and 150 seconds is only when a tank is solely relying on passive shield recharge.

It is significantly lower if you are being Logi'd (remote shield transporter) or using a Booster yourself.

oh I meant I was leaning towards the 100-120ish range instead of including all the way up to 150...(although I do acknowledge that 150 may be more reasonable)

The more total EHP you stack the longer it will take you to regenerate it all.

I have no idea. Im guessing he didnt read like....the next post which says "Yeah, I mean that for Standard HAVs"

I think in general we're all probably being a little more hostile than we should be, myself included. Lets all take a deep breath, relax, and get back to the subject at hand in a polite and constructive manner ^_^

Lets outline a couple of the key points I think most of us agree on.

1. Increase Slot layout for standard HAVs to 4/2 and 2/4 paired with a decrease in base HP to put less emphasis on the hull and more emphasis on the modules themselves
2. At the least bring back PG/CPU boosting skills to compensate for the additional fitted module. (Will this overbuff dropships?)
3. Madrugar needs an additional increase to resources, mostly in CPU but PG as well.
4. Reintroduce 180mm Armor Plates as the "standard" fitting for a Madrugar to push its eHP higher to offset the Gunnlogi's strong HP regen.
5. Reintroduce Active Armor Reps
6. Potentially remove delay from Shield recharge, lower recharge rate, allow it to recharge under fire. (Will this be confusing for players because it breaks convention from how Dropsuit Defenses work?)
6a. Allow players to fit a Recharge to increase passive regen by a low-moderate amount constantly
6b. Allow players to fit a Booster to increase regen rate greatly for a limited time with a cooldown

I'd like to get an actual document set up in the next couple days with a solid outline.

So would the marauders have 5/2 and 2/5?

And what would thier base hp be?