OMG!!!! Can you please finish the freaking RACIAL PARITY in vehicles and turrets before trying to fix the gameplay/balance of this s**t?!? Seriously. How can you expect to balance only two races' of vehicles and then upset that balance by introducing the other two races' of turrets and vehicles only to find that they will break everything all over again? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE add in racial parity for the vehicles first and then add in the specialized tanks etc. I play a Minmatar, I would have maxed out my dropship piloting skills by now except for one problem... THERE ARE NO DAMNED MINMATAR DROPSHIPS RIGHT NOW!!!! So rather than waste points on Caldari or Gallente dropships, I've been DENIED that aspect of the game waiting patiently for YEARS now for you to get off your ass and get the racial parity in vehicles done.

Seriously CCP you have wasted so much damned potential for so much gameplay by not following through with full racial parity that it's just insane!!! If you need proof, just look back at the spikes in players and activity every time you finished racial parity for the other things like rifles and heavy/scout suits!!! Hell you still haven't finished racial parity on heavy weapons, again we see only two races' heavy weapons, where are the other two at?

FINISH YOUR DAMNED GAME THEN ADD THE NEW STUFF PLEASE!!!!

this would make buffing AV sharply a necessity. I was right when I said they were making HAVs variants rather than a three-step tier. This is better.

[quote=Vitharr Foebane] anti shield AV solution quote]
simple

flux grenades
plasma cannon
forge guns

theres your anti shield av.

Aaaannnnnnd this is the kind of feedback we don't need. Please go away

Aaaannnnnnd this is the kind of feedback we don't need. Please go away

I agree the tone is not constructive, but I think the sentiments are valid criticism. It's really about the sequence of additions the vehicle roadmap should take. I think that is an important discussion/debate to have (perhaps not in this thread though).

If it were up to me, I would roll out the vehicle rebalance in the following stages:

1. Capacitors, neuts, webs, bring back the old modules, skills and rebalance the existing vehicles around these. This would be a big deal and could take a few rounds of hot fixing numbers to get right. That buys time for:

2. Introduction of full racial parity in vehicles, turrets and heavy weapons. Again this could take a while to balance the new additions.

3. Finally, release the vehicle variants, and balance them in, using the existing knowledge gleaned from the past balancing efforts.

It seems we're jumping straight to 3 (im guessing because the art assets already exist and it appears to be low-hanging fruit) and this will be much harder to ever get 1 and 2 added later. Instead of balancing being a progressive process and building over time, it would have to keep re-addressing the same issues repeatedly if we do things out-of-order. I think this would be a big mistake.

Hey Darth, this guy got it, why didn't you? More importantly, why doesn't CCP?

this would make buffing AV sharply a necessity. I was right when I said they were making HAVs variants rather than a three-step tier. This is better.

I think the generalist tanks should have more slots, while the specialized tanks get fewer.

The generalists will build their tank exactly how they like it, while the specialists will have the tank pre-built, with just a limited amount of modification allowed.


So Madrugar and Gunnlogi? 7 total high/low slots.
Enforcers and Marauders? 5 total slots.

Look into the fitting of the Madrugar. The primary reason why the Gunnlogi is superior to the Madrugar is the down right terrible fitting. Losing 370 CPU for 370 PG is no where near a good trade. My Gunnlogi is a piece of cake to fit while my Madrugar is pretty much instantly maxed out on CPU no matter what I do.

I will also say that prices should be close. Marauders were previously balanced around cost. I think this is a bad idea as balancing something by putting a high price tag on it hurts poor people and those that have one billion ISK could not care less.

I greatly dislike the "insta pop" mechanic, even if it is meant as a hard counter like pulling in one specific tank to take out one specific tank. Even my cheapo Gunnlogi runs at 315,000 ISK. One thing I didn't like about 1.7 is that tank fights were no longer bruised bare fist bar fights, it a gun fight on whoever shot and hit first won. While TTK was being increased for Dropsuits, it was being heavily decreased for vehicles. I think it is currently decent as is considering the overheat stops you from instant blaping other tanks but I am still dubious on a design that is meant to "insta pop" given the prices of these vehicles. Unlike Drop Suits, I don't get a bonus if I am not using that Tank.

If I am running in my Prototype Scout and I die a lot, I can decide to run around in my Basic Scout. My level 5 Caldari Scout still gives me insane scan range, a very easy to fit Cloak, and makes me harder to see. If I have level 5 UHAV and a Falchion keeps killing me so I drop to my Gunnlogi/Madrugar, those level 5 points are wasted. The difference is that there is NO cheaper option to be a UHAV than to go to a completely different skill set. Possible fix: allow MBT's to get some benefit from those other skills. Possible flaw: completely removes the idea of tieracide for tanks as it was originally designed in 1.7.

I never said I disagreed with your post did I? I just said that the kind of feedback you gave was not the kind we need, so I asked you to go away. You could have posted feedback in a positive way, and I would have completely agreed with you. Instead, you decided to go the 12 year old route and flame the post.

So, scratching my head about trying to figure out a place for vehicles on the battlefield without making them super dropsuits that massacre infantry without a care in the world, I thought of something.
Vehicles need a role, a reason to exist on the field, and so I thought: "What would make vehicles extremely valuable to infantry without having them be extreme killing machines?"

And then I realized: "Support vehicles"

If tanks are to hunt tanks, those original tanks need a reason to exist in the first place.
That was originally wrecking infantry, but as evidence shows, that's only fun for the pilots.
So we are in a position where vehicles don't really do much but "exist", and nobody bothers to bring their own vehicles to hunt them down since they're either not worth bothering with, or dispatched quickly with AV.

Imagine if Logi vehicles were highly tanky, to the point where infantry AV would require a long time and a lot of concentrated fire to take down.
Now imagine if said Logi vehicles provided powerful bonuses in an AOE to infantry: 100hp/s armor and shield regen, damage amplification, ammo resupply, mobile CRU, mobile supply depot, scanning, etc'.

You would want a way to get rid of them - You would WANT killer vehicles, vehicles designed to hunt other vehicles.
You would WANT to have armored control on the battlefield, so you could bring support vehicles with impunity.


This gives vehicles a reason to exist initially, and provides a target that infantry can't easily dispatch of.
This gives vehicles a reason to hunt down other vehicles.
This gives people a reason to want armored control of the field.

LOL, did you not read the post right before? Here, I'll link it for you since you are incapable of finding it yourself:

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2519188#post2519188

A necessary reminder, those who are not going to read the proposal and have nothing constructive to say, should not comment in this thread. Thanks.

I don't see a role.
All I see are more tank variants that will either make infantry whine or tankers whine, depending on how they're balanced.

As Spkr said, in Skirmish 1.0 they had a role.
Pounding the objective until it went kaboom.
That meant that the defenders would bring their own vehicles to pound back at the attacker vehicles.

This meant that vehicles had a role without being the "destroy all life" variant.






I honestly do not think you should be adding more vehicle variants before you decide the role of the HAV.

I think they should have a different slot layout. A super tank should be just that super. I don't think we would need to buff AV at all. It makes no sense to have different tanks with the same slot layout. Make them cost more isk accordingly. AV should not be able to take one of these "super" tanks out easily it would take teamwork. Again IMO you should make these tanks special by giving them unique slot layouts. Otherwise the tanks we have are enough.

teamwork for "one" tank.

what happens when there's 6 of them?

we dont have enough players per team for that.

we could use team "bandwitdh" for vehicles to keep from having 6 marauders on the field at once.

teamwork for "one" tank.

what happens when there's 6 of them?

we dont have enough players per team for that.

we could use team "bandwitdh" for vehicles to keep from having 6 marauders on the field at once.

It's probably best if we keep these designed as standard variants with the same number of slots. A lot of people want adv/proto level slot layouts which would be fine if higher tiers just got more pg/cpu to fit stuff with.

And if a vayu is getting instapop'd would it have lav ehp? What would this mean for dropships getting sniped by an a falchion perched against a hillside? I already get hit by 2 cycles of a rail if I try to engage enemies with no chance to react.

As for base hp have you thought about simply adding and taking away a Basic Extender/Plate's worth of health?

Sagaris: 3340 Shields
Falchion: 1960 Shields

Surya: 5020 Armor
Vayu: 2990 Armor

And lets try to paint out this vayu getting one shotted by a Falchion.

If a Falchion fits 3 damage mods on a proto rail with just the max DHAV fitting bonus 1 shot would do 3248 dmg which is less than the vayu's ehp with the 1200 shields still in tacked. If the falchion only got a 10% racial bonus we're looking at a vayu with around 3500 ehp (500 shields/2990 armor.

This is where I would suggest having light vehicles be a viable option in destroying these glass cannon tanks. I can see lavs filled with 2~3 av specialists being pretty potent against them, but It would be nice to have an assault lav class that can make use of any new av turrets.

Edit: Vayu's dps with this setup would be around 1662

teamwork for "one" tank.

what happens when there's 6 of them?

we dont have enough players per team for that.

we could use team "bandwitdh" for vehicles to keep from having 6 marauders on the field at once.

This I really like the idea of (Like tech 2 ships in eve loosing a rig slot and calibration), but it would require a major overhaul of the existing vehicle modules...(which they kinda already need...)

I think they should have a different slot layout. A super tank should be just that super. I don't think we would need to buff AV at all. It makes no sense to have different tanks with the same slot layout. Make them cost more isk accordingly. AV should not be able to take one of these "super" tanks out easily it would take teamwork. Again IMO you should make these tanks special by giving them unique slot layouts. Otherwise the tanks we have are enough.

If you had given constructive feedback in the first place, then nobody would have had a problem with it. Sure, the post got my attention, but for all the wrong reasons. If you left out all the crap, then CCP might actually pay attention to it. As well as the other people on the forums. As far as I know, flame posts have NEVER brought any change to the game. Only the good ones have.

And now you seem to be after me because I pointed out your feedback was not needed. Please continue if you wish.