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Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1965	Posted - 2014.11.18 16:55:00 - [1] - Quote firstly Rattatti i do appreciate your efforts but i feel this will be an in direct nerf to the logi role.. currently players can get like up to 12 varients feilded on hives and uplinks and prox mines[1] and RE[2] basically.. drop an "uplink" (1/2) thats fine.. drop a "stable uplink" (1/2) thats fine.. now drop an R9 uplink.. that is fine too.. however once you try drop the second R9 the "Uplink" you first dropped would pop.. SO regardless of meta we should be limited to 3 max active at any one time.. this makes them more valuable on the field and cuts down on spam. hives. the "best" i saw was 3 max active 4 carried.. only needs to apply to varients too although separation between ammo hives and triage hives (possably a complex problem to solve as there is 3 types, hive, rep hive and pure triage hive) uplinks.. again best i saw was like 3 max active 4 carried at -21.xx% spawn modifier.. so again.. make the cap per player be 3 uplinks active at any one time (this could possably be the easyest one to fix) now for prox and RE.. as for prox they need a complete rework as they are only effective in larger numbers.. maybe limit max carried/active to 6 per meta but do the meta tweak as i outlined earlier so you cannot have 6x standard+6x advanced+ 6x pro.. regarless of meta 6 should be a players limit active. as for RE.. aside from the usually RE frisbees i dont often see them deployed in more then 4 unless its a jihad jeep where they slap as many on the jeep as possable to try take out a hav which is a little too powerful for the AV on the field.. i suggest leaving as is for now.. so in conclusion Player max active limits regardless of meta level = problem solved. new system player 1 max active = 3x uplink 3x ammo hive (maybe make triage hives count as seperate hives) 3x triage hive 6x prox(pending tweek/balance/buff) old system player 1 max active = 12+ uplinks 12+ hives 12+ prox 12 RE(not much of a problem as of yet) so my system is easy.. fair and cuts down on clutter by two thirds. so there you go rattatti problem solved, job well done, ship it and have a beer. no need for some over complicated "bandwidth system" as logi will need to still be able to slap down up to 3 uplinks and 3 hives/triage and maybe some prox on the road for good measure. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Kallas Hallytyr Skullbreakers 977	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:02:00 - [2] - Quote I agree. As much as the bandwidth system would be great, it is not nearly as simple as EVE Drones (ie, equipment is not about direct damage) and I was also thinking along the same lines as you. A limit to each type of equipment, as you listed, would be much simpler and get the same results as intended. My only concern is how to balance Flux Uplinks with standard variants: Flux's have faster spawns, but the same volume, perhaps reduce number of spawns to compensate, then we'd have: standard, medium spawns and speed; Quantum, more spawns, maybe slower than standard?; Flux, less spawns, but faster. Edit: As you say, the issue is not having three uplinks and three hives down at once, but being able to spam out up to 12 x 16 = 192 potential uplinks in a battle (obviously rarely done, more like forty in your typical spam situation.) By limiting each type, rather than total, we can have Logistics still benefitting from bringing out various equipment types. Essentially, uplinks are very much a drop-and-forget tool. Maintenance is minimal but uplinks are a necessary part of a battle, meaning switching equipment would negatively impact the ability to fight effectively. Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1967	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:05:00 - [3] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: I agree. As much as the bandwidth system would be great, it is not nearly as simple as EVE Drones (ie, equipment is not about direct damage) and I was also thinking along the same lines as you. A limit to each type of equipment, as you listed, would be much simpler and get the same results as intended. My only concern is how to balance Flux Uplinks with standard variants: Flux's have faster spawns, but the same volume, perhaps reduce number of spawns to compensate, then we'd have: standard, medium spawns and speed; Quantum, more spawns, maybe slower than standard?; Flux, less spawns, but faster. indeed the problem with the old system was being able to have the "max active" of every meta level as opposed to a hard limit of 3 active imposed on the player regardless of meta level.. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Ku Shala The Generals 1017	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:06:00 - [4] - Quote this will just leave pubs without uplinks and hives more equipment less usage is the solution example: 20 uplinks can be carried that allow 3 spawns only, same restrictions we currently have *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (Caldari Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist *Assault -Logistics-Sentinal-Scout-Commando Allround CK-0
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1969	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:12:00 - [5] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: this will just leave pubs without uplinks and hives more equipment less usage is the solution example: 20 uplinks can be carried that allow 3 spawns only, same restrictions we currently have it wont as every single player would be open to fielding 3x of a type of equipment. i have played/logi'd long enough to know there isnt that much spam of equipment except around silos and on roofs.. and with the proposed Orbital changes/improvments those will be a thing of the past soon enough.. the only problem is maybe because of how under used logi is (almost as under used as commando) because of many reasons that can possably contribute to a lack of equipment on the field.. and no the current problem is too much equipment fielded on the map/in tight areas which causes lag so leave equipment as they are except make it so players can only have a max of 3 uplinks at any one time which iirc some uplinks + amarr logi can get like 40 or spawns before they pop.. see what im getting at? ALSO.. i have damn well carried/pushed pubs and newberrys to victory or atleast a close defeat with ONLY 2 UPLINKS.. R9s so i personally stand as a testiment to have never abused meta-level spamming to win games or make the WP i used to in public matches [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1976	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:43:00 - [6] - Quote Kallas Hallytyr wrote: Edit: As you say, the issue is not having three uplinks and three hives down at once, but being able to spam out up to 12 x 16 = 192 potential uplinks in a battle (obviously rarely done, more like forty in your typical spam situation.) By limiting each type, rather than total, we can have Logistics still benefitting from bringing out various equipment types. Essentially, uplinks are very much a drop-and-forget tool. Maintenance is minimal but uplinks are a necessary part of a battle, meaning switching equipment would negatively impact the ability to fight effectively. indeed.. so atleast my way it is 3x16=48.. now that is a massive improvement is it not?.. that is a whole 144 less equipment on the field.. and i doubt i have ever seen even half that on a field at any one time anyway except certain maps.. around a supply depo. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
dwater General Tso's Alliance 79	Posted - 2014.11.18 17:47:00 - [7] - Quote terrible idea why should want to use a logi when my scout can put down the same number of links?
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 17745	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:20:00 - [8] - Quote This doesn't solution doesn't even begin to solve tourist logis (logis that throw crap down then swap to something else like a heavy) or as mentioned above other classes from role stomping on logis. CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1980	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:30:00 - [9] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: This doesn't solution doesn't even begin to solve tourist logis (logis that throw crap down then swap to something else like a heavy) or as mentioned above other classes from role stomping on logis. it eases the equipment spam and if some one wishes to use one suit to drop equipment then switch to another then they shoudl be allowed to do so! remember CCP said the game was supposed to allow us to play how WE WANTED.. i mean i logi 99% of the time.. but do sometimes switch to minmando for anti vehicle for a short time, then back to logi.. btu what i have seen is equipment spam is usually at depo's and on roofs.. roofs will easly be blapped with the new solo orbitals/ECM orbitals ones in enclosed areas possably ECM able not sure about normal OBs.. or we could just remove silos from the middle zone of the maps makeing everyone have to carry hives and put them down anyway.. so basically.. my way is helping ease the lag of equipment spam while not indirectly nerfing logis even more. try being a logi for a year and tell me you wouldnt agree with me. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1980	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:32:00 - [10] - Quote dwater wrote: terrible idea why should want to use a logi when my scout can put down the same number of links? well thats the point, that is yoru choice weather to use a logi suit or a scout to drop those uplinks... the only change is you can only have 3 uplinks active at any time regardless of suit.. still not 100% figured out on hives yet but getting there. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7

Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 17746	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:35:00 - [11] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: This doesn't solution doesn't even begin to solve tourist logis (logis that throw crap down then swap to something else like a heavy) or as mentioned above other classes from role stomping on logis. it eases the equipment spam and if some one wishes to use one suit to drop equipment then switch to another then they shoudl be allowed to do so! remember CCP said the game was supposed to allow us to play how WE WANTED.. i mean i logi 99% of the time.. but do sometimes switch to minmando for anti vehicle for a short time, then back to logi.. btu what i have seen is equipment spam is usually at depo's and on roofs.. roofs will easly be blapped with the new solo orbitals/ECM orbitals ones in enclosed areas possably ECM able not sure about normal OBs.. or we could just remove silos from the middle zone of the maps makeing everyone have to carry hives and put them down anyway.. so basically.. my way is helping ease the lag of equipment spam while not indirectly nerfing logis even more. try being a logi for a year and tell me you wouldnt agree with me. It still doesn't solve the issue; and yes ccp said you could play like you wanted. I rather have a bandwidth expansion module rather than your system. You system will be a bit more complicated than the current bandwidth system (especially its every type of equipment getting bandwidth instead of all deployables getting a shared one) CPM 1 Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= Prototype Forge Gun=// Unlocked
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3900	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:39:00 - [12] - Quote Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it by applying further restrictions with no counterbalance to emphasize the role. Unfortunately the system you propose is not fair any more than proposing all suits get a heavy weapon slot would be fair, each role is a specialization and needs to possess advantages accordingly. The BW system does this, whereas the OP does not. 0.02 ISK Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Zaria Min Deir TeamPlayers Negative-Feedback 868	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:40:00 - [13] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: This doesn't solution doesn't even begin to solve tourist logis (logis that throw crap down then swap to something else like a heavy) or as mentioned above other classes from role stomping on logis. Now, my issue with statements like these are the implication that putting down equipment as a logi (as needed, you know, links in say domination are kind of a must unless you want to lose) but spawning back in as another role after dying to better contribute to the team, if the situation calls for it, (say, there might in fact be no need for a logi at that time and pressing need for a heavy to defend a point) is somehow inherently wrong and something that needs to be fixed. Yes, the people who go to a supply depot to spam 3 fits' worth of links and hives in a 10 meter radius before switching to heir l33t slayer fit can go burn in hell, but that is most certainly not what all of us do, and I for one am getting tired of having my main (but not only) role being spat on because of that sort of asshattery. And honestly, the 'role stomping' business? Increase equipment fitting cost even more, but majorly buff the logi fitting bonus, bam, solved. (Yes, I am being facetious, why do you ask?) Have you considered installing the improved keyboard? "Go Go Power Rangers!"
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1980	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:41:00 - [14] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: This doesn't solution doesn't even begin to solve tourist logis (logis that throw crap down then swap to something else like a heavy) or as mentioned above other classes from role stomping on logis. it eases the equipment spam and if some one wishes to use one suit to drop equipment then switch to another then they shoudl be allowed to do so! remember CCP said the game was supposed to allow us to play how WE WANTED.. i mean i logi 99% of the time.. but do sometimes switch to minmando for anti vehicle for a short time, then back to logi.. btu what i have seen is equipment spam is usually at depo's and on roofs.. roofs will easly be blapped with the new solo orbitals/ECM orbitals ones in enclosed areas possably ECM able not sure about normal OBs.. or we could just remove silos from the middle zone of the maps makeing everyone have to carry hives and put them down anyway.. so basically.. my way is helping ease the lag of equipment spam while not indirectly nerfing logis even more. try being a logi for a year and tell me you wouldnt agree with me. It still doesn't solve the issue; and yes ccp said you could play like you wanted. I rather have a bandwidth expansion module rather than your system. You system will be a bit more complicated than the current bandwidth system (especially its every type of equipment getting bandwidth instead of all deployables getting a shared one) no my system would be easly implimented.. bandwidth if you ever played eve was somewhat restricting and only worked because drones were just "attack".. and i do not want to nerf my already pathetically low ehp as a logi just to fit more bandwidth.. like i said.. adding bandwidth just causes the logi role to finally die... logi is only barely higher is use then commando.. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1980	Posted - 2014.11.18 18:50:00 - [15] - Quote Zaria Min Deir wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: This doesn't solution doesn't even begin to solve tourist logis (logis that throw crap down then swap to something else like a heavy) or as mentioned above other classes from role stomping on logis. Now, my issue with statements like these are the implication that putting down equipment as a logi (as needed, you know, links in say domination are kind of a must unless you want to lose) but spawning back in as another role after dying to better contribute to the team, if the situation calls for it, (say, there might in fact be no need for a logi at that time and pressing need for a heavy to defend a point) is somehow inherently wrong and something that needs to be fixed. Yes, the people who go to a supply depot to spam 3 fits' worth of links and hives in a 10 meter radius before switching to heir l33t slayer fit can go burn in hell, but that is most certainly not what all of us do, and I for one am getting tired of having my main (but not only) role being spat on because of that sort of asshattery. And honestly, the 'role stomping' business? Increase equipment fitting cost even more, but majorly buff the logi fitting bonus, bam, solved. (Yes, I am being facetious, why do you ask?) excelent points! but i dissagree.. if we were limited to a limited number of "max active" at any one time it would as my match earlier pointed out lead to 144 less equipment on the field but thats only if every single person on our team was to place 12+ of EVERYTHING(usually around supply depos) i mean i would be happy with my "meta-limited max active" idea i outlined in my OP.. i mean i have never used more then 3 uplinks.. as for hives since there is ammo and triage hives i may think that hives need a "max active" of 4 so even caldari logi can still use rep hives and ammo hives as per their racial bonus!.. this would be limited to the PLAYER regardless of SUIT.. ie should a scout wish to place 3 uplinks and 3 to 4 hives and then switch to a sentinel or assault.. so it still gives equipment to players to use but they cannot spam it constantly and in large quantity around supply depos anymore.. even if they tried to as i said it would be liek 2 thirds less spam/lag then currently.. and yet ignarent plebs who dont know bout logi just cannot fathom the depth of the role we play and all the managment we have to try do [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Jadek Menaheim Xer Cloud Consortium 4286	Posted - 2014.11.18 19:16:00 - [16] - Quote It would help if we had the ability to pick up our equipment similar to how we can recall our drones in EVE. Try the new Planetary Conquest Mode!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5134	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:43:00 - [17] - Quote Never say something is easy to implement until you know how to code it. Just because something is simple in your head doesn't mean it's going to be trivial to make a program to implement it. EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 186	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:46:00 - [18] - Quote I don't understand why you continue to believe bandwidth will nerf logis. It's going to nerf everyone else's use of equipment EXCEPT for logis and it's going to make logis KING of equipment FINALLY. Add to that they are also going to adjust and buff the logi skill bonuses.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1994	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:50:00 - [19] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: I don't understand why you continue to believe bandwidth will nerf logis. It's going to nerf everyone else's use of equipment EXCEPT for logis and it's going to make logis KING of equipment FINALLY. Add to that they are also going to adjust and buff the logi skill bonuses. thats not the point, any logi worth their EOM paycheck will tell you they often change suit to combad a threat on the ever changing battle.. i flip to minmando send a few swarms at a target to drive them off and flip back to logi.. basically if this bandwidth NERF happens the only viable logi will be amarr logi in a god aweful fit of swarm sidearm (obligatory tank moduals) injector rep drop/ammo all other logi would die off and the logi role would be even more under populated then it is now.. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1994	Posted - 2014.11.18 21:53:00 - [20] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Never say something is easy to implement until you know how to code it. Just because something is simple in your head doesn't mean it's going to be trivial to make a program to implement it. well it would be easier then adding bandwidth to ALL suits and then added bandwidth to ALL equipment and then balancing it all [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 5141	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:10:00 - [21] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Never say something is easy to implement until you know how to code it. Just because something is simple in your head doesn't mean it's going to be trivial to make a program to implement it. well it would be easier then adding bandwidth to ALL suits and then added bandwidth to ALL equipment and then balancing it all Would it? That's database number tweaks not writing new behavior code EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3919	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:31:00 - [22] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Never say something is easy to implement until you know how to code it. Just because something is simple in your head doesn't mean it's going to be trivial to make a program to implement it. So very very true. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
CLONE117 True Pros Forever 872	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:34:00 - [23] - Quote my idea to solve equipment spam is to buff the flux. so it has a 30m spherical radius and wipes all equipment in said radius. heavies R shining beacons. now stfu about them killing you since you can see them a mile away.
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 188	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:35:00 - [24] - Quote I can hear the Caldari Sentinel unified cries of terror all the way here in Offugen.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3919	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:38:00 - [25] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: I don't understand why you continue to believe bandwidth will nerf logis. It's going to nerf everyone else's use of equipment EXCEPT for logis and it's going to make logis KING of equipment FINALLY. Add to that they are also going to adjust and buff the logi skill bonuses. thats not the point, any logi worth their EOM paycheck will tell you they often change suit to combad a threat on the ever changing battle.. i flip to minmando send a few swarms at a target to drive them off and flip back to logi.. basically if this bandwidth NERF happens the only viable logi will be amarr logi in a god aweful fit of swarm sidearm (obligatory tank moduals) injector rep drop/ammo all other logi would die off and the logi role would be even more under populated then it is now.. The moment you are not deployed in a specific frame you are no longer playing a role and should no longer gain the specialist benefits thereof. Want to swap to a heavy suit and wade into the thick of it? Sure thing, but you don't get to do that with the eWar skill buffs of the scout or the BW profile of the Logi, if you want either of those things you have to be on the battlefield in the suit related to that role. Now will Logi need some love after this change? Sure, because they need some love now and this change won't eliminate that need. But is this a nerf to actually playing support? Nope, it is in fact a buff. Also regarding valid team contribution and EoM earnings (not either but both), speaking as one of the longest running support logi in the game I say - CHALLENGE ACCEPTED. Maybe I'll be given some more reason to run my Cal or Amarr frames for longer now, but I can already say with ease that the Min Logi will still be my go to fit as it has been since before there were racial suits in the game. Cheers, Cross See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
Slave of MORTE Eyniletti Rangers Minmatar Republic 90	Posted - 2014.11.18 23:50:00 - [26] - Quote Neither seem like a great solution especially when applied to pc..how many players would have to run dedicated spawns in order for pc ..at least 1 per objective......yall enjoy that Yet another slave of Mortedeamor
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1997	Posted - 2014.11.19 00:18:00 - [27] - Quote Slave of MORTE wrote: Neither seem like a great solution especially when applied to pc..how many players would have to run dedicated spawns in order for pc ..at least 1 per objective......yall enjoy that get like 3 or 4 logi then and stop useing the OP FOTM of scouts and to a lesser extent sents [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 1997	Posted - 2014.11.19 00:20:00 - [28] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: I don't understand why you continue to believe bandwidth will nerf logis. It's going to nerf everyone else's use of equipment EXCEPT for logis and it's going to make logis KING of equipment FINALLY. Add to that they are also going to adjust and buff the logi skill bonuses. thats not the point, any logi worth their EOM paycheck will tell you they often change suit to combad a threat on the ever changing battle.. i flip to minmando send a few swarms at a target to drive them off and flip back to logi.. basically if this bandwidth NERF happens the only viable logi will be amarr logi in a god aweful fit of swarm sidearm (obligatory tank moduals) injector rep drop/ammo all other logi would die off and the logi role would be even more under populated then it is now.. The moment you are not deployed in a specific frame you are no longer playing a role and should no longer gain the specialist benefits thereof. Want to swap to a heavy suit and wade into the thick of it? Sure thing, but you don't get to do that with the eWar skill buffs of the scout or the BW profile of the Logi, if you want either of those things you have to be on the battlefield in the suit related to that role. Now will Logi need some love after this change? Sure, because they need some love now and this change won't eliminate that need. But is this a nerf to actually playing support? Nope, it is in fact a buff. Also regarding valid team contribution and EoM earnings (not either but both), speaking as one of the longest running support logi in the game I say - CHALLENGE ACCEPTED. Maybe I'll be given some more reason to run my Cal or Amarr frames for longer now, but I can already say with ease that the Min Logi will still be my go to fit as it has been since before there were racial suits in the game. Cheers, Cross logi is a mindset not just a frame.. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 1 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1304	Posted - 2014.11.19 02:51:00 - [29] - Quote I like equipment spam and it helps me so..... Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Gk0 Scout yay :)
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2000	Posted - 2014.11.19 03:11:00 - [30] - Quote Zindorak wrote: I like equipment spam and it helps me so..... well id rather take spam over that god aweful bandwidth idea of Rattati's [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7

Booby Tuesdays Tuesdays With Boobies 992	Posted - 2014.11.19 03:32:00 - [31] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: I don't understand why you continue to believe bandwidth will nerf logis. It's going to nerf everyone else's use of equipment EXCEPT for logis and it's going to make logis KING of equipment FINALLY. Add to that they are also going to adjust and buff the logi skill bonuses. thats not the point, any logi worth their EOM paycheck will tell you they often change suit to combad a threat on the ever changing battle.. i flip to minmando send a few swarms at a target to drive them off and flip back to logi.. basically if this bandwidth NERF happens the only viable logi will be amarr logi in a god aweful fit of swarm sidearm (obligatory tank moduals) injector rep drop/ammo all other logi would die off and the logi role would be even more under populated then it is now.. This is exactly my playstyle, and the bandwidth limit is a fantastic change imho. I chose to change my role to help my team by switching to AV. When I switch back to my Logi fit, I am only losing half of my deployed equipment, not all of it. I can now continue to redeploy my equipment as necessary, as opposed to just having it in places my squad is more than likely no longer at. If anything, this makes Logis even more valuable, not the other way around. And don't forget, iirc, this means that we will be able to carry more of each equipment item. This means less running to the supply depot in the heat of battle to restock. No Shave November Applies To Your Face Only!!!
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4589	Posted - 2014.11.19 03:33:00 - [32] - Quote facepalm Wow, your total lack of insight just boggles the mind. A quote from an old TV show comes to mind: "My god you are so dumb it makes me tired" I am an Amarr logi. Please explain to me how your proposal helps me. It results in: - me being able to use LESS equipment than I do now. - still being able to use THE SAME amount as some spam monkey who only drops 6 uplinks at the start of a match, possibly from a scout suit, and never setting foot in a logi suit again for the rest of the battle? How is that an improvement, exactly? You say yourself everyone will run some links. What bizarro world do you live in where that "protects" logis? And before you employ your typical ignorant ad hominem "argument": Dont bother, I have been an Amarr logi since the suit was un-broken in 1.2 and was a "logi" (there was only one) in beta - Feel free to click the link in my signature. I also have 8 weapons to proto and am part of the original beta logi tradition of omnisoldiers. Do not presume to lecture me on how to do my job. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2004	Posted - 2014.11.19 04:24:00 - [33] - Quote Booby Tuesdays wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Kaeru Nayiri wrote: I don't understand why you continue to believe bandwidth will nerf logis. It's going to nerf everyone else's use of equipment EXCEPT for logis and it's going to make logis KING of equipment FINALLY. Add to that they are also going to adjust and buff the logi skill bonuses. thats not the point, any logi worth their EOM paycheck will tell you they often change suit to combad a threat on the ever changing battle.. i flip to minmando send a few swarms at a target to drive them off and flip back to logi.. basically if this bandwidth NERF happens the only viable logi will be amarr logi in a god aweful fit of swarm sidearm (obligatory tank moduals) injector rep drop/ammo all other logi would die off and the logi role would be even more under populated then it is now.. This is exactly my playstyle, and the bandwidth limit is a fantastic change imho. I chose to change my role to help my team by switching to AV. When I switch back to my Logi fit, I am only losing half of my deployed equipment, not all of it. I can now continue to redeploy my equipment as necessary, as opposed to just having it in places my squad is more than likely no longer at. If anything, this makes Logis even more valuable, not the other way around. And don't forget, iirc, this means that we will be able to carry more of each equipment item. This means less running to the supply depot in the heat of battle to restock. half of it could mean the uplinks you placed.. i like to have one main uplink and one backup and maybe hold the 3rd as a spare sometimes.. having uplinks randomly pop for seemingly no reason could just F over the team and cause a massive lack of team on the field leading to redlines... id prefer to see how the solo orbitals and solo ECM and team ECM play out first since they will cost much less WP... before they with equipment [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2004	Posted - 2014.11.19 04:25:00 - [34] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: facepalm Wow, your total lack of insight just boggles the mind. A quote from an old TV show comes to mind: "My god you are so dumb it makes me tired" I am an Amarr logi. Please explain to me how your proposal helps me. It results in: - me being able to use LESS equipment than I do now. - still being able to use THE SAME amount as some spam monkey who only drops 6 uplinks at the start of a match, possibly from a scout suit, and never setting foot in a logi suit again for the rest of the battle? How is that an improvement, exactly? You say yourself everyone will run some links. What bizarro world do you live in where that "protects" logis? And before you employ your typical ignorant ad hominem "argument": Dont bother, I have been an Amarr logi since the suit was un-broken in 1.2 and was a "logi" (there was only one) in beta - Feel free to click the link in my signature. I also have 8 weapons to proto and am part of the original beta logi tradition of omnisoldiers. Do not presume to lecture me on how to do my job. granted it would only be "less equipment" if you were fit with more then one type of uplink. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
korrah silain True Illuminate 1	Posted - 2014.11.19 06:01:00 - [35] - Quote Quick idea just to toss out, but if the goal is to stop logis deploying passive support items and then swapping suits why not make the equipment pop if they spawn in in a suit that doesn't have a copy of the equipment? Then maybe find a way to limit the amount deployable per suit, maybe according to the highest "level" (not meta level, but standard/militia get one copy, adv gets 2 proto gets 3) So for example a suit decides to equip an advanced uplink and a militia uplink would still be limited to two deployable at a time due to adv being his highest level, make the same rules with the hives, maybe allow double the number for Rex's... Heck maybe you could switch the caldari and amarr bonus to possibly add a flat 1 activatable bonus at levels 1, 3, and 5 as well as the existing bonuses to further inscentivise their use... Sorry if any of this is a retread...
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2007	Posted - 2014.11.19 06:27:00 - [36] - Quote korrah silain wrote: Quick idea just to toss out, but if the goal is to stop logis deploying passive support items and then swapping suits why not make the equipment pop if they spawn in in a suit that doesn't have a copy of the equipment? Then maybe find a way to limit the amount deployable per suit, maybe according to the highest "level" (not meta level, but standard/militia get one copy, adv gets 2 proto gets 3) So for example a suit decides to equip an advanced uplink and a militia uplink would still be limited to two deployable at a time due to adv being his highest level, make the same rules with the hives, maybe allow double the number for Rex's... Heck maybe you could switch the caldari and amarr bonus to possibly add a flat 1 activatable bonus at levels 1, 3, and 5 as well as the existing bonuses to further inscentivise their use... Sorry if any of this is a retread... well the problem isnt "logi" as such its People who arnt logi main useing logi suit to slap down dozens of uplinks and hives around suply depos and such... myself as a logi i run as a legit logi just useing the hive/uplinks on the suit i choose to deploy as.. and sometimes i have to flip to an AV suit and back again to a logi suit.. if we took your idea it would basically kill the logi role as once a logi does a quick flip to be versatile and drive off a threat (which alot of bitter vets used to tell newer players to do, god damned hypocrites) mostlikly our uplinks would pop meaning all dead soldiers end up back at the MCC if its a hard match.. and being a hard match that would mean a complete loss off the flow of the battle and mean a 100% loss chance and battles would become stale and boring because there would be next to no active uplinks near the spawn point(s) to actually get any fights.. this would kill FW, kill PC, kill dom and skirm.. and only ambush would be left as a viable game mode with SOME action it amazes me as to how narrow and short sighted alot of the playerbase is.. they have almost no idea WTF logi do while slayers slay and vehicles just run away from swarms and scouts with RE's... logi ARE the battle.. with out a logi there is no battle only getting redlined or CRU camped... logi are the second least used suit in the game with commando as the most least used.. if these equipment changes that other people or even rattatti have suggested come into game.. no one will want to play logi after the initial "oooh shiney" wares off.. not even myself.. and i main logi and alt logi on 3 other alts 1 of each race where as main covers all 4 logi.. so i have more then enough experance to know exactly what im saying, what shouldnt change and what will happen if the proposed changes of rattatti and other people happen.. atleast my suggestion is a simple one cutting down on spam while still letting people deploy and switch as desired/needed.. if all team members were to deploy max deployables (190ish currently which would not happen ever its just maybe 2 to 4 WP hungry A holes who ruin it) it would start to cause lag where as my proposal imposes some form of limit which is not restrictive.. but i am also thinking about what the new proposed solo orbitals will do for/to deployable equipment.. we cannot hide uplinks under buildings cause orbitals penetrate everything.. and im only saying uplinks because no one will think of a hive in the middle of nowhere as useful.. F it im going to bed.. there has been far too much stupidity and bitter-vet hypocrisy tonight in this thread. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
korrah silain True Illuminate 1	Posted - 2014.11.19 09:47:00 - [37] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: korrah silain wrote: Quick idea just to toss out, but if the goal is to stop logis deploying passive support items and then swapping suits why not make the equipment pop if they spawn in in a suit that doesn't have a copy of the equipment? Then maybe find a way to limit the amount deployable per suit, maybe according to the highest "level" (not meta level, but standard/militia get one copy, adv gets 2 proto gets 3) So for example a suit decides to equip an advanced uplink and a militia uplink would still be limited to two deployable at a time due to adv being his highest level, make the same rules with the hives, maybe allow double the number for Rex's... Heck maybe you could switch the caldari and amarr bonus to possibly add a flat 1 activatable bonus at levels 1, 3, and 5 as well as the existing bonuses to further inscentivise their use... Sorry if any of this is a retread... well the problem isnt "logi" as such its People who arnt logi main useing logi suit to slap down dozens of uplinks and hives around suply depos and such... myself as a logi i run as a legit logi just useing the hive/uplinks on the suit i choose to deploy as.. and sometimes i have to flip to an AV suit and back again to a logi suit.. if we took your idea it would basically kill the logi role as once a logi does a quick flip to be versatile and drive off a threat (which alot of bitter vets used to tell newer players to do, god damned hypocrites) mostlikly our uplinks would pop meaning all dead soldiers end up back at the MCC if its a hard match.. and being a hard match that would mean a complete loss off the flow of the battle and mean a 100% loss chance and battles would become stale and boring because there would be next to no active uplinks near the spawn point(s) to actually get any fights.. this would kill FW, kill PC, kill dom and skirm.. and only ambush would be left as a viable game mode with SOME action it amazes me as to how narrow and short sighted alot of the playerbase is.. they have almost no idea WTF logi do while slayers slay and vehicles just run away from swarms and scouts with RE's... logi ARE the battle.. with out a logi there is no battle only getting redlined or CRU camped... logi are the second least used suit in the game with commando as the most least used.. if these equipment changes that other people or even rattatti have suggested come into game.. no one will want to play logi after the initial "oooh shiney" wares off.. not even myself.. and i main logi and alt logi on 3 other alts 1 of each race where as main covers all 4 logi.. so i have more then enough experance to know exactly what im saying, what shouldnt change and what will happen if the proposed changes of rattatti and other people happen.. atleast my suggestion is a simple one cutting down on spam while still letting people deploy and switch as desired/needed.. if all team members were to deploy max deployables (190ish currently which would not happen ever its just maybe 2 to 4 WP hungry A holes who ruin it) it would start to cause lag where as my proposal imposes some form of limit which is not restrictive.. but i am also thinking about what the new proposed solo orbitals will do for/to deployable equipment.. we cannot hide uplinks under buildings cause orbitals penetrate everything.. and im only saying uplinks because no one will think of a hive in the middle of nowhere as useful.. F it im going to bed.. there has been far too much stupidity and bitter-vet hypocrisy tonight in this thread. I appreciate your feedback, however seeing as logos have weapons to fight infantry and only the sentinle has no equipment slots what it would actually force you to do is to fit your av fits with your prioritized deployable as their equipment(your things only pop if you are over the limit you get from equipping them) For example you are a proto amarr logi and have 3 uplinks out, and having only skilled nanohives to adv you only have two of those out. you need to drive off a dropship, so you switch to a premade av fram the uplinks would only pop if you had either and advanced or lower uplink, or no uplink in the equipment slot. In the case of only an adv or std or militia uplink fitted their you would lose only 1(adv) or two(std/mlt) as well as your hives. Once you switch back you can redeploy hives. If you are complaining about not being able to drive off infantry, well my understanding is that the logos gave up fire power for support. The numbers I gave out were purely hypothetical of course I haven't done math this is all off the cuff, but please don't misunderstand I'm not trying to belittle the logos or anything, or Nerf them, this simply seems like a simpler path to fixing the problem than the band with system.
Kaeru Nayiri OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 195	Posted - 2014.11.19 17:36:00 - [38] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: facepalm Wow, your total lack of insight just boggles the mind. A quote from an old TV show comes to mind: "My god you are so dumb it makes me tired" I am an Amarr logi. Please explain to me how your proposal helps me. It results in: - me being able to use LESS equipment than I do now. - still being able to use THE SAME amount as some spam monkey who only drops 6 uplinks at the start of a match, possibly from a scout suit, and never setting foot in a logi suit again for the rest of the battle? How is that an improvement, exactly? You say yourself everyone will run some links. What bizarro world do you live in where that "protects" logis? And before you employ your typical ignorant ad hominem "argument": Dont bother, I have been an Amarr logi since the suit was un-broken in 1.2 and was a "logi" (there was only one) in beta - Feel free to click the link in my signature. I also have 8 weapons to proto and am part of the original beta logi tradition of omnisoldiers. Do not presume to lecture me on how to do my job. They EXPLICITLY said no one will have the as much bandwidth as a Logi. How are you figuring some spam monkey is going to have as many uplinks up as you? The idea is to bring down total number of deployables and make logis desireable because, even though they deploy less equipment than they do now, they will be able to deploy much more than any other suit.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4598	Posted - 2014.11.19 17:38:00 - [39] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: facepalm Wow, your total lack of insight just boggles the mind. A quote from an old TV show comes to mind: "My god you are so dumb it makes me tired" I am an Amarr logi. Please explain to me how your proposal helps me. It results in: - me being able to use LESS equipment than I do now. - still being able to use THE SAME amount as some spam monkey who only drops 6 uplinks at the start of a match, possibly from a scout suit, and never setting foot in a logi suit again for the rest of the battle? How is that an improvement, exactly? You say yourself everyone will run some links. What bizarro world do you live in where that "protects" logis? And before you employ your typical ignorant ad hominem "argument": Dont bother, I have been an Amarr logi since the suit was un-broken in 1.2 and was a "logi" (there was only one) in beta - Feel free to click the link in my signature. I also have 8 weapons to proto and am part of the original beta logi tradition of omnisoldiers. Do not presume to lecture me on how to do my job. They EXPLICITLY said no one will have the as much bandwidth as a Logi. How are you figuring some spam monkey is going to have as many uplinks up as you? The idea is to bring down total number of deployables and make logis desireable because, even though they deploy less equipment than they do now, they will be able to deploy much more than any other suit. I know. I was talking about the OP's proposal. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2019	Posted - 2014.11.19 17:58:00 - [40] - Quote korrah silain wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: korrah silain wrote: Quick idea just to toss out, but if the goal is to stop logis deploying passive support items and then swapping suits why not make the equipment pop if they spawn in in a suit that doesn't have a copy of the equipment? Then maybe find a way to limit the amount deployable per suit, maybe according to the highest "level" (not meta level, but standard/militia get one copy, adv gets 2 proto gets 3) So for example a suit decides to equip an advanced uplink and a militia uplink would still be limited to two deployable at a time due to adv being his highest level, make the same rules with the hives, maybe allow double the number for Rex's... Heck maybe you could switch the caldari and amarr bonus to possibly add a flat 1 activatable bonus at levels 1, 3, and 5 as well as the existing bonuses to further inscentivise their use... Sorry if any of this is a retread... well the problem isnt "logi" as such its People who arnt logi main useing logi suit to slap down dozens of uplinks and hives around suply depos and such... myself as a logi i run as a legit logi just useing the hive/uplinks on the suit i choose to deploy as.. and sometimes i have to flip to an AV suit and back again to a logi suit.. if we took your idea it would basically kill the logi role as once a logi does a quick flip to be versatile and drive off a threat (which alot of bitter vets used to tell newer players to do, god damned hypocrites) mostlikly our uplinks would pop meaning all dead soldiers end up back at the MCC if its a hard match.. and being a hard match that would mean a complete loss off the flow of the battle and mean a 100% loss chance and battles would become stale and boring because there would be next to no active uplinks near the spawn point(s) to actually get any fights.. this would kill FW, kill PC, kill dom and skirm.. and only ambush would be left as a viable game mode with SOME action it amazes me as to how narrow and short sighted alot of the playerbase is.. they have almost no idea WTF logi do while slayers slay and vehicles just run away from swarms and scouts with RE's... logi ARE the battle.. with out a logi there is no battle only getting redlined or CRU camped... logi are the second least used suit in the game with commando as the most least used.. if these equipment changes that other people or even rattatti have suggested come into game.. no one will want to play logi after the initial "oooh shiney" wares off.. not even myself.. and i main logi and alt logi on 3 other alts 1 of each race where as main covers all 4 logi.. so i have more then enough experance to know exactly what im saying, what shouldnt change and what will happen if the proposed changes of rattatti and other people happen.. atleast my suggestion is a simple one cutting down on spam while still letting people deploy and switch as desired/needed.. if all team members were to deploy max deployables (190ish currently which would not happen ever its just maybe 2 to 4 WP hungry A holes who ruin it) it would start to cause lag where as my proposal imposes some form of limit which is not restrictive.. but i am also thinking about what the new proposed solo orbitals will do for/to deployable equipment.. we cannot hide uplinks under buildings cause orbitals penetrate everything.. and im only saying uplinks because no one will think of a hive in the middle of nowhere as useful.. F it im going to bed.. there has been far too much stupidity and bitter-vet hypocrisy tonight in this thread. I appreciate your feedback, however seeing as logos have weapons to fight infantry and only the sentinle has no equipment slots what it would actually force you to do is to fit your av fits with your prioritized deployable as their equipment(your things only pop if you are over the limit you get from equipping them) For example you are a proto amarr logi and have 3 uplinks out, and having only skilled nanohives to adv you only have two of those out. you need to drive off a dropship, so you switch to a premade av fram the uplinks would only pop if you had either and advanced or lower uplink, or no uplink in the equipment slot. In the case of only an adv or std or militia uplink fitted their you would lose only 1(adv) or two(std/mlt) as well as your hives. Once you switch back you can redeploy hives. If you are complaining about not being able to drive off infantry, well my understanding is that the logos gave up fire power for support. The numbers I gave out were purely hypothetical of course I haven't done math this is all off the cuff, but please don't misunderstand I'm not trying to belittle the logos or anything, or Nerf them, this simply seems like a simpler path to fixing the problem than the band with system. Further if the problem isn't so much the logis wouldn't limiting the maximum uplinks put out by non logis to a hard 3 while requiring them to remain in suits equipped with proto uplinks to keep them up for the duration of the match stop the spam? What is the maximum number per person, even scouts at the moment? Also, again this would require them to commit to those uplinks for the entire match, stopping the tourist logi/dentinal spam that is the root of the problem. logi, second lowest ehp of all the suits.. end up being much slower to compensate for the ehp gap.. all logi (excluding amarr) only have 1 light weapon slot for what ever weapon they choose.. most all logi cannot fit a mostly proto tank AND proto equipment and proto weapon.. seriously give it a shot on protofits with all L5 skills its impossable.. and thats even on a min logi with just a CR i still have to fit advanced shields and advanced hive to manage to squeese in proto needle proto rep and proto uplink.. as for armor it has to use reactive because of the lower requirments. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7

Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2019	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:04:00 - [41] - Quote Kaeru Nayiri wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: facepalm Wow, your total lack of insight just boggles the mind. A quote from an old TV show comes to mind: "My god you are so dumb it makes me tired" I am an Amarr logi. Please explain to me how your proposal helps me. It results in: - me being able to use LESS equipment than I do now. - still being able to use THE SAME amount as some spam monkey who only drops 6 uplinks at the start of a match, possibly from a scout suit, and never setting foot in a logi suit again for the rest of the battle? How is that an improvement, exactly? You say yourself everyone will run some links. What bizarro world do you live in where that "protects" logis? And before you employ your typical ignorant ad hominem "argument": Dont bother, I have been an Amarr logi since the suit was un-broken in 1.2 and was a "logi" (there was only one) in beta - Feel free to click the link in my signature. I also have 8 weapons to proto and am part of the original beta logi tradition of omnisoldiers. Do not presume to lecture me on how to do my job. They EXPLICITLY said no one will have the as much bandwidth as a Logi. How are you figuring some spam monkey is going to have as many uplinks up as you? The idea is to bring down total number of deployables and make logis desireable because, even though they deploy less equipment than they do now, they will be able to deploy much more than any other suit. yes logi may get the most bandwidth but then that locks us out of being able to adapt to the battlefield as needed with out causeing your uplinks to go POP or w/e thus screwing over your team and ending up pushed back to the redline harder then a squad stomp with a large helping of proto stomp... i much rather the "bandwidth" idea be put on hold till we have had the "new orbitals" for atleast a month to see if solo orbital and solo ecm orbital make an impact on the battlefield against spam or not.. i just already guess having uplinks around or near cap points is goign to die.. so its gonna end up with uplinks all around the outside walls of places instead which can be all too easly picked off by useing an active scanner. or even just by being a cal scout with its stupidly long range on passive scans... i cannot fathom how these things will not damage how "action" packed some battles may be.. i mean we already had one major action nerf when OBs were nerfed from 2500 to 5000 and battles became quite dull and much slower and no chance of pushing back cause once you have been pushed back its near impossable to get enough wp for an OB. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4601	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:07:00 - [42] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: most all logi cannot fit a mostly proto tank AND proto equipment and proto weapon.. Why do you need all three? (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2019	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:14:00 - [43] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: most all logi cannot fit a mostly proto tank AND proto equipment and proto weapon.. Why do you need all three? because all other suits can to a degree... and besides.. its our own risk to run that much proto and lose maybe 300k or more in one suit which is deemed the gimpest suit of all. however if bandwidth comes around the "go to" av suit will become amarr Logi becuase of sidearm and its logi meaning no equipment will have to pop.. now tell me does any other suit/role have that much BS to deal with and the micromanagement too? logi flip to av because slayers get too blood thirsty and tunnel visioned and dont even adapt.. and in the "special" case of sniper FGers they may slay and hit vehicles but they are not reliable, as in they are not in every match. now.. if ccp were to give ALL logi a sidearm and a little extra cpu and pg cause we are already starved on that front even at L5 cores and logi skill it may make this flipping form main logi to av and back alot easier leaving the slayers to slay, scouts to DEMI-GODMODE , assaults to do what ever they do and sentinels to be WP starved defending the point... ps... if all logi had sidearms it would mean that a logi who is primary min/cal/gal would NOT have to skill into amarr JUST to be an AV logi [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
korrah silain True Illuminate 3	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:15:00 - [44] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: . logi, second lowest ehp of all the suits.. end up being much slower to compensate for the ehp gap.. all logi (excluding amarr) only have 1 light weapon slot for what ever weapon they choose.. most all logi cannot fit a mostly proto tank AND proto equipment and proto weapon.. seriously give it a shot on protofits with all L5 skills its impossable.. and thats even on a min logi with just a CR i still have to fit advanced shields and advanced hive to manage to squeese in proto needle proto rep and proto uplink.. as for armor it has to use reactive because of the lower requirments. [/quote] Then perhaps a general buff to the logo speed and ehp is necessary along side the implementation of this system to find a balance, not my decision I am simply trying to advocate for this simplified solution over the bandwidth idea.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2019	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:20:00 - [45] - Quote korrah silain wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: . logi, second lowest ehp of all the suits.. end up being much slower to compensate for the ehp gap.. all logi (excluding amarr) only have 1 light weapon slot for what ever weapon they choose.. most all logi cannot fit a mostly proto tank AND proto equipment and proto weapon.. seriously give it a shot on protofits with all L5 skills its impossable.. and thats even on a min logi with just a CR i still have to fit advanced shields and advanced hive to manage to squeese in proto needle proto rep and proto uplink.. as for armor it has to use reactive because of the lower requirments. Then perhaps a general buff to the logo speed and ehp is necessary along side the implementation of this system to find a balance, not my decision I am simply trying to advocate for this simplified solution over the bandwidth idea. [/quote] ccp will not give a hp buff to logi nor a speed buff because of the rampant abuse of "slayer logi" back in the day.. however as i just said to demonsbane.. if all logi got a sidearm and slightly increased pg and cpu we would not have to waste SP skilling into amarr logi just to get a logi suit with a side arm which we can use as an AV platform so we can stay essentially as logi but also flip back and forth between Ap and AV roles while providing our highly Micromanagment centric role. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4601	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:26:00 - [46] - Quote No system is perfect, everyone will have to make some kind of sacrifice in order to limit EQ spam. This way, IMO, impacts everyone except logi's far more than it does logi's. This topic has been the central point of debate at least 3-4 times in this game's history, and I've been fighting proposals that had huge potential to nerf logi's every time. This is unquestionably the best proposal I've yet seen that will both: A) Work B) Be a lot harder on non-logi's than on logis. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2021	Posted - 2014.11.19 19:51:00 - [47] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: No system is perfect, everyone will have to make some kind of sacrifice in order to limit EQ spam. This way, IMO, impacts everyone except logi's far more than it does logi's. This topic has been the central point of debate at least 3-4 times in this game's history, and I've been fighting proposals that had huge potential to nerf logi's every time. This is unquestionably the best proposal I've yet seen that will both: A) Work B) Be a lot harder on non-logi's than on logis. BTW, this one is arguably my favorite: John Demonsbane wrote: A word of warning if you are thinking about reading the linked thread: ItGÇÖs 18 pages long. If you donGÇÖt have an hour or so to go through it, allow me to summarize for you: OP: Someone who went 1/17 topped the leaderboard. WTH? The only way anyone should get WP is by shooting someone with an AR. Pew pew! Like, everyone else: ItGÇÖs called strategy. You should try it sometime. OP: Strategery? Never heard of it. These GÇ£logisticsGÇ¥ players you speak of, do they spend time doing anything besides shoot an AR? If so, they are leeches who steal WP from people like me who are more awesome than everyone else. They just run around with their eyes closed dropping equipment in completely random locations with no thought involved. Everyone else: YouGÇÖre an idiot. Have fun spawning from the MCC every time and running all the way across these huge new maps. You may also find it rather difficult shooting a gun with no ammo. OP: You are all trolls. My logic is unassailable, and only killing requires skill. Logis donGÇÖt do anything but spam equipment that they donGÇÖt need to spend SP or ISK on and take no risks. Me: If the guy youGÇÖre referencing died 17 times, sounds like he took some risk. OP: No, you guys are all haxx0rs taking advantage of a bug that lets you change suits at supply depots and get unlimited equipment for free. Nobody else ever uses supply depots to their advantage so this is clearly a logistics scam. Everyone else: No, thatGÇÖs how supply depots work. OP: No, youGÇÖre wrong Everyone: No, youGÇÖre wrong OP: YouGÇÖre a troll Everyone: No, you are! OP: No, you are! (repeat for 15 more pages) doubt it.. scouts wont have to sacrifice anything neither will assaults commandos sentinels HAVs LAVs or ADS/DS.. this change is only geared at screwing logi's over [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4610	Posted - 2014.11.19 22:20:00 - [48] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: doubt it.. scouts wont have to sacrifice anything neither will assaults commandos sentinels HAVs LAVs or ADS/DS.. this change is only geared at screwing logi's over This I still don't get. Do you actually understand how this thing works? Currently someone in a scout suit can run unlimited equipment. With BW, they can only have like 3 active at proto. Sentinels, same thing. Spawn in a logi suit, spam uplinks, switch to sentinel suit and mow down people with HMG while farming uplink WP. WIth BW someone in a sentinel suit can have zero active equipment. Sounds like a sacrifice to me. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2025	Posted - 2014.11.19 22:53:00 - [49] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: doubt it.. scouts wont have to sacrifice anything neither will assaults commandos sentinels HAVs LAVs or ADS/DS.. this change is only geared at screwing logi's over This I still don't get. Do you actually understand how this thing works? Currently someone in a scout suit can run unlimited equipment. With BW, they can only have like 3 active at proto. Sentinels, same thing. Spawn in a logi suit, spam uplinks, switch to sentinel suit and mow down people with HMG while farming uplink WP. WIth BW someone in a sentinel suit can have zero active equipment. Sounds like a sacrifice to me. hmm so sentinels get 0 bandwidth? hmmm i must go deeper [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4613	Posted - 2014.11.19 22:56:00 - [50] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: doubt it.. scouts wont have to sacrifice anything neither will assaults commandos sentinels HAVs LAVs or ADS/DS.. this change is only geared at screwing logi's over This I still don't get. Do you actually understand how this thing works? Currently someone in a scout suit can run unlimited equipment. With BW, they can only have like 3 active at proto. Sentinels, same thing. Spawn in a logi suit, spam uplinks, switch to sentinel suit and mow down people with HMG while farming uplink WP. WIth BW someone in a sentinel suit can have zero active equipment. Sounds like a sacrifice to me. hmm so sentinels get 0 bandwidth? hmmm i must go deeper Yes you do! Feel free to start here. (The godfather of tactical logistics)

Tebu Gan molon labe. General Tso's Alliance 1237	Posted - 2014.11.19 22:57:00 - [51] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: this will just leave pubs without uplinks and hives more equipment less usage is the solution example: 20 uplinks can be carried that allow 3 spawns only, same restrictions we currently have Or just put a restriction on the amount of uplinks you can have out. Lump uplinks as one thing, not seperated as they are. As it is now I can have 7 links out using different versions of uplinks. The way I suggest is once you have 3 of one type (or mixed) you can lay no more out. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4613	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:03:00 - [52] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Ku Shala wrote: this will just leave pubs without uplinks and hives more equipment less usage is the solution example: 20 uplinks can be carried that allow 3 spawns only, same restrictions we currently have Or just put a restriction on the amount of uplinks you can have out. Lump uplinks as one thing, not seperated as they are. As it is now I can have 7 links out using different versions of uplinks. The way I suggest is once you have 3 of one type (or mixed) you can lay no more out. Are you going to pay for my respec if that happens so I can get out of the Amarr logi suit? (The godfather of tactical logistics)
TRULY ELITE WarRavens Capital Punishment. 176	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:09:00 - [53] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Ku Shala wrote: this will just leave pubs without uplinks and hives more equipment less usage is the solution example: 20 uplinks can be carried that allow 3 spawns only, same restrictions we currently have Or just put a restriction on the amount of uplinks you can have out. Lump uplinks as one thing, not seperated as they are. As it is now I can have 7 links out using different versions of uplinks. The way I suggest is once you have 3 of one type (or mixed) you can lay no more out. Are you going to pay for my respec if that happens so I can get out of the Amarr logi suit? Lol this suggestion is basically nerfing the caldari and amarr logi's to hell.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2025	Posted - 2014.11.19 23:21:00 - [54] - Quote TRULY ELITE wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Ku Shala wrote: this will just leave pubs without uplinks and hives more equipment less usage is the solution example: 20 uplinks can be carried that allow 3 spawns only, same restrictions we currently have Or just put a restriction on the amount of uplinks you can have out. Lump uplinks as one thing, not seperated as they are. As it is now I can have 7 links out using different versions of uplinks. The way I suggest is once you have 3 of one type (or mixed) you can lay no more out. Are you going to pay for my respec if that happens so I can get out of the Amarr logi suit? Lol this suggestion is basically nerfing the caldari and amarr logi's to hell. its not as amarr and caldari are about QUALITY on their hives/uplinks caldari make hives rep more or give more ammo amarr allow faster spawns and more of them.. if anything we could blaim amarrans for uplink spam ;p [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2025	Posted - 2014.11.20 00:01:00 - [55] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Ku Shala wrote: this will just leave pubs without uplinks and hives more equipment less usage is the solution example: 20 uplinks can be carried that allow 3 spawns only, same restrictions we currently have Or just put a restriction on the amount of uplinks you can have out. Lump uplinks as one thing, not seperated as they are. As it is now I can have 7 links out using different versions of uplinks. The way I suggest is once you have 3 of one type (or mixed) you can lay no more out. Are you going to pay for my respec if that happens so I can get out of the Amarr logi suit? well where were you when they nerfed reptools with that god aweful Points per minute cap and more recently you only get triage points from targets who have recently killed some one. hmm? that was the ONE THING minmatar logi were good at.. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4654	Posted - 2014.11.20 23:32:00 - [56] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Ku Shala wrote: this will just leave pubs without uplinks and hives more equipment less usage is the solution example: 20 uplinks can be carried that allow 3 spawns only, same restrictions we currently have Or just put a restriction on the amount of uplinks you can have out. Lump uplinks as one thing, not seperated as they are. As it is now I can have 7 links out using different versions of uplinks. The way I suggest is once you have 3 of one type (or mixed) you can lay no more out. Are you going to pay for my respec if that happens so I can get out of the Amarr logi suit? well where were you when they nerfed reptools with that god aweful Points per minute cap and more recently you only get triage points from targets who have recently killed some one. hmm? that was the ONE THING minmatar logi were good at.. That was early in beta. I was not on the forums at the time. From what I was told restrictions and some kind of cap absolutely needed to be put in place because the WP farming was over-the-top ludicrous. People were pulling thousands on thousands of WP repping setinels shooting MD's at their own feet, installations being shot at by tanks, another person repping that tank as the installation was shooting it, others repping the freaking MCC, it was crazy. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
korrah silain True Illuminate 6	Posted - 2014.11.21 09:09:00 - [57] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Ku Shala wrote: this will just leave pubs without uplinks and hives more equipment less usage is the solution example: 20 uplinks can be carried that allow 3 spawns only, same restrictions we currently have Or just put a restriction on the amount of uplinks you can have out. Lump uplinks as one thing, not seperated as they are. As it is now I can have 7 links out using different versions of uplinks. The way I suggest is once you have 3 of one type (or mixed) you can lay no more out. Are you going to pay for my respec if that happens so I can get out of the Amarr logi suit? 1) as is stated below amarr and caldari logis are more about the quality of their uplinks/hives getting a boost rather than tan being able to put out more of them 2) if you went back and read my suggestion you would see that I suggested as a possibility those suits getting an extra uplink or hive at levels 1,3, and 5 on the skill chart 3) no one owes you **** if you get needed and then decide its not worth it to run what you used to run. I used to run cloak scouts but with the new wear Nerf decided to respect into commandos and assaults. I did so gracefully without demanding that half the forum (who were rightfully crying for an admittedly still needed scout Nerf) pay for my respect. Equipment spam is ruining the game on multiple fronts, and it at least in some regards is due to logis ergo logis need to be fixed. Besides LOGIS DONT INHERRENTLY GET A BONUS TO THE AMMOUNT THEY DEPLOY RIGHT NOW, do why exactly is decreasing the ludicrously high limit attained by gaming the system screwing logis over? You can still deploy 1-3 uplinks now we just track all uplinks as uplinks. As an aside in regards to the "but then I can't flip to av" argument: so? Av is a slayer role, not really something logis should be doing anyway(Rex's notwithstanding), if anything it should be given to the assaults and commandos, besides with the new swarm launcher a starterfit is effective av. Sounds like you need to get your lazy team mates to chase away the drop ships and tanks. That being said I do believe I heard elsewhere on this forum that the logis may at least be getting a speed buff.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 529	Posted - 2014.11.21 16:34:00 - [58] - Quote smh I really don't want to lend support to the lunatic fringe... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 529	Posted - 2014.11.21 17:38:00 - [59] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Apothecary Za'ki wrote: most all logi cannot fit a mostly proto tank AND proto equipment and proto weapon.. Why do you need all three? Better question may be Why Don't We Deserve The Ability to Use All Three? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 529	Posted - 2014.11.21 17:49:00 - [60] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: No system is perfect, everyone will have to make some kind of sacrifice in order to limit EQ spam. This way, IMO, impacts everyone except logi's far more than it does logi's. This topic has been the central point of debate at least 3-4 times in this game's history, and I've been fighting proposals that had huge potential to nerf logi's every time. This is unquestionably the best proposal I've yet seen that will both: A) Work B) Be a lot harder on non-logi's than on logis. BTW, this one is arguably my favorite: John Demonsbane wrote: A word of warning if you are thinking about reading the linked thread: ItGÇÖs 18 pages long. If you donGÇÖt have an hour or so to go through it, allow me to summarize for you: OP: Someone who went 1/17 topped the leaderboard. WTH? The only way anyone should get WP is by shooting someone with an AR. Pew pew! Like, everyone else: ItGÇÖs called strategy. You should try it sometime. OP: Strategery? Never heard of it. These GÇ£logisticsGÇ¥ players you speak of, do they spend time doing anything besides shoot an AR? If so, they are leeches who steal WP from people like me who are more awesome than everyone else. They just run around with their eyes closed dropping equipment in completely random locations with no thought involved. Everyone else: YouGÇÖre an idiot. Have fun spawning from the MCC every time and running all the way across these huge new maps. You may also find it rather difficult shooting a gun with no ammo. OP: You are all trolls. My logic is unassailable, and only killing requires skill. Logis donGÇÖt do anything but spam equipment that they donGÇÖt need to spend SP or ISK on and take no risks. Me: If the guy youGÇÖre referencing died 17 times, sounds like he took some risk. OP: No, you guys are all haxx0rs taking advantage of a bug that lets you change suits at supply depots and get unlimited equipment for free. Nobody else ever uses supply depots to their advantage so this is clearly a logistics scam. Everyone else: No, thatGÇÖs how supply depots work. OP: No, youGÇÖre wrong Everyone: No, youGÇÖre wrong OP: YouGÇÖre a troll Everyone: No, you are! OP: No, you are! (repeat for 15 more pages) I remember this thread and the irony in your reposting seems lost on you considering it's basically 18 pages of defense of Logistics playstyle that will be eliminated with BW imposition as proposed. BW imposition that, largely, is agreed upon as not really eliminating the spam issue it's meant to address. Ever heard the phrase, "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"? You're giving up a bird in our hand for nothing in a bush. Thats a nerf . EDIT: Oh, and handing over Athena Sentinel the victory s/he was looking for in posting that thread. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 342	Posted - 2014.11.21 18:39:00 - [61] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it by applying further restrictions with no counterbalance to emphasize the role. Unfortunately the system you propose is not fair any more than proposing all suits get a heavy weapon slot would be fair, each role is a specialization and needs to possess advantages accordingly. The BW system does this, whereas the OP does not. 0.02 ISK Cross Hey Cross, what I don't get about the you guys trying to reinvent the logi, is the fact that you seem to have the opinion that everybody should play the same role for the whole match... That is completely opposite of why many play this game. If you destroy all my deployed equipment when I say change into an AV suit, than you punish my efforts from the start or mid of the game. I try to support my team. Many times I'm the only uplinker in the game. But putting down uplinks is not something I want to do for the whole match (though I regularly do it several times a game). I also want to fight AV and do other stuff (terminating clones). So why is it, that you guys think equipment spam Is a good enough reason to implement those changes. If it wasn't for my effort, in many pubs I'd be running the whole way from base to the fight on every spawn. And you know what, in my experience some of the worst spammers, are dedicated logis. These changes won't change a lot regarding spam. And by the way, if all the logis equipment is destroyed, why not make every player just glue to his starting role? Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
korrah silain True Illuminate 7	Posted - 2014.11.21 19:27:00 - [62] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it by applying further restrictions with no counterbalance to emphasize the role. Unfortunately the system you propose is not fair any more than proposing all suits get a heavy weapon slot would be fair, each role is a specialization and needs to possess advantages accordingly. The BW system does this, whereas the OP does not. 0.02 ISK Cross Hey Cross, what I don't get about the you guys trying to reinvent the logi, is the fact that you seem to have the opinion that everybody should play the same role for the whole match... That is completely opposite of why many play this game. If you destroy all my deployed equipment when I say change into an AV suit, than you punish my efforts from the start or mid of the game. I try to support my team. Many times I'm the only uplinker in the game. But putting down uplinks is not something I want to do for the whole match (though I regularly do it several times a game). I also want to fight AV and do other stuff (terminating clones). So why is it, that you guys think equipment spam Is a good enough reason to implement those changes. If it wasn't for my effort, in many pubs I'd be running the whole way from base to the fight on every spawn. And you know what, in my experience some of the worst spammers, are dedicated logis. These changes won't change a lot regarding spam. And by the way, if all the logis equipment is destroyed, why not make every player just glue to his starting role? Why are you suffering under the delusion that the suggestion will destroy ALL uplinks in case of switch? The proposed bw system would allow all deployed uplinks that fit within the band with limits out. The only suit that has zero be is a dentinal, ergo as long as you aren't switching to a sentinal you will keep some uplinks. This effectively functions as a boost to the logistics suit and encourages its use. If you are simply placing uplinks and switching you are part of the problem. As far as equipment spam being a problem it is. It lags the game, discourages actual strategy and encourages an overuse of sentinals with hmgs by allowing people to freely switch and farm wps while being nigh unkillable. If you do not understand this then I am sorry.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 532	Posted - 2014.11.21 19:48:00 - [63] - Quote korrah silain wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it by applying further restrictions with no counterbalance to emphasize the role. Unfortunately the system you propose is not fair any more than proposing all suits get a heavy weapon slot would be fair, each role is a specialization and needs to possess advantages accordingly. The BW system does this, whereas the OP does not. 0.02 ISK Cross Hey Cross, what I don't get about the you guys trying to reinvent the logi, is the fact that you seem to have the opinion that everybody should play the same role for the whole match... That is completely opposite of why many play this game. If you destroy all my deployed equipment when I say change into an AV suit, than you punish my efforts from the start or mid of the game. I try to support my team. Many times I'm the only uplinker in the game. But putting down uplinks is not something I want to do for the whole match (though I regularly do it several times a game). I also want to fight AV and do other stuff (terminating clones). So why is it, that you guys think equipment spam Is a good enough reason to implement those changes. If it wasn't for my effort, in many pubs I'd be running the whole way from base to the fight on every spawn. And you know what, in my experience some of the worst spammers, are dedicated logis. These changes won't change a lot regarding spam. And by the way, if all the logis equipment is destroyed, why not make every player just glue to his starting role? Why are you suffering under the delusion that the suggestion will destroy ALL uplinks in case of switch? The proposed bw system would allow all deployed uplinks that fit within the band with limits out. The only suit that has zero be is a dentinal, ergo as long as you aren't switching to a sentinal you will keep some uplinks. This effectively functions as a boost to the logistics suit and encourages its use. If you are simply placing uplinks and switching you are part of the problem. As far as equipment spam being a problem it is. It lags the game, discourages actual strategy and encourages an overuse of sentinals with hmgs by allowing people to freely switch and farm wps while being nigh unkillable. If you do not understand this then I am sorry. And how do you miss that there are other options for addressing the equipment spam issues that don't infringe on the players' ability to choose? The choice limitation is primarily a nerf for Logis, since when a heavy switches to scout all the work he did as a heavy he keeps! All frames except Logis will be this way, whereas on the inverse if you do Logistical work and for w/e reason have to switch you LOSE the work you performed! And thats just suit switching between classes, the problem STILL exists switching INSIDE the class ie If I run my Amarr Logi and lay links I'm not going to be able to run my CalLogi and also lay hives! Or If I run my Amarr AV minefield builder I'm not going to be able to then trun around and lay links! And so you know, I'm not talking about spamming out 100 links or hives, just usable quantities to establish and retain Field Control. You know, Combat Logistics? BW limits will force most all gameplay into BlobWork, which I guess is the norm in EVE but really will make DUST boring as hell, since it ISN'T a naval warfare simulator, its a ground combat simulator and while they have similarities they do have inherent differences. Other options are available to address the problems which DON'T saddle the Logistics class player with this negative. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
korrah silain True Illuminate 7	Posted - 2014.11.21 19:59:00 - [64] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it by applying further restrictions with no counterbalance to emphasize the role. Unfortunately the system you propose is not fair any more than proposing all suits get a heavy weapon slot would be fair, each role is a specialization and needs to possess advantages accordingly. The BW system does this, whereas the OP does not. 0.02 ISK Cross Hey Cross, what I don't get about the you guys trying to reinvent the logi, is the fact that you seem to have the opinion that everybody should play the same role for the whole match... That is completely opposite of why many play this game. If you destroy all my deployed equipment when I say change into an AV suit, than you punish my efforts from the start or mid of the game. I try to support my team. Many times I'm the only uplinker in the game. But putting down uplinks is not something I want to do for the whole match (though I regularly do it several times a game). I also want to fight AV and do other stuff (terminating clones). So why is it, that you guys think equipment spam Is a good enough reason to implement those changes. If it wasn't for my effort, in many pubs I'd be running the whole way from base to the fight on every spawn. And you know what, in my experience some of the worst spammers, are dedicated logis. These changes won't change a lot regarding spam. And by the way, if all the logis equipment is destroyed, why not make every player just glue to his starting role? Why are you suffering under the delusion that the suggestion will destroy ALL uplinks in case of switch? The proposed bw system would allow all deployed uplinks that fit within the band with limits out. The only suit that has zero be is a dentinal, ergo as long as you aren't switching to a sentinal you will keep some uplinks. This effectively functions as a boost to the logistics suit and encourages its use. If you are simply placing uplinks and switching you are part of the problem. As far as equipment spam being a problem it is. It lags the game, discourages actual strategy and encourages an overuse of sentinals with hmgs by allowing people to freely switch and farm wps while being nigh unkillable. If you do not understand this then I am sorry. And how do you miss that there are other options for addressing the equipment spam issues that don't infringe on the players' ability to choose? The choice limitation is primarily a nerf for Logis, since when a heavy switches to scout all the work he did as a heavy he keeps! All frames except Logis will be this way, whereas on the inverse if you do Logistical work and for w/e reason have to switch you LOSE the work you performed! And thats just suit switching between classes, the problem STILL exists switching INSIDE the class ie If I run my Amarr Logi and lay links I'm not going to be able to run my CalLogi and also lay hives! Or If I run my Amarr AV minefield builder I'm not going to be able to then trun around and lay links! And so you know, I'm not talking about spamming out 100 links or hives, just usable quantities to establish and retain Field Control. You know, Combat Logistics? BW limits will force most all gameplay into BlobWork, which I guess is the norm in EVE but really will make DUST boring as hell, since it ISN'T a naval warfare simulator, its a ground combat simulator and while they have similarities they do have inherent differences. Other options are available to address the problems which DON'T saddle the Logistics class player with this negative. A heavys kills stay dead for the entire battle? How have I been respawning? If you want to kill as a logo then use the gun you get. As far as keeping things managable you will still keep uplinks when you switch, Only some are destroyed as according to your new suit. You want to kill stuff in a suit not limited like the logi then fine but you don't keep the bonuses.
Ku Shala The Generals 1023	Posted - 2014.11.21 20:12:00 - [65] - Quote are you going to give heavies an equipment slot? my cal sent is slow so now to forge from elevation I need to call a dropship fly to the tower fire enough forge shots to take out 1 or 2 installations or vehicles fall to the groung call in an rdv with another vehicle to get to a supply depot recall my vehicle or leave it for a BB call in another dropship fly to elevation again to kill 2 maybe 3 vehicles? i support anti spam but make limits per player not suit bandwidth *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (Caldari Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist *Assault -Logistics-Sentinal-Scout-Commando Allround CK-0
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 532	Posted - 2014.11.21 20:26:00 - [66] - Quote korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it by applying further restrictions with no counterbalance to emphasize the role. Unfortunately the system you propose is not fair any more than proposing all suits get a heavy weapon slot would be fair, each role is a specialization and needs to possess advantages accordingly. The BW system does this, whereas the OP does not. 0.02 ISK Cross Hey Cross, what I don't get about the you guys trying to reinvent the logi, is the fact that you seem to have the opinion that everybody should play the same role for the whole match... That is completely opposite of why many play this game. If you destroy all my deployed equipment when I say change into an AV suit, than you punish my efforts from the start or mid of the game. I try to support my team. Many times I'm the only uplinker in the game. But putting down uplinks is not something I want to do for the whole match (though I regularly do it several times a game). I also want to fight AV and do other stuff (terminating clones). So why is it, that you guys think equipment spam Is a good enough reason to implement those changes. If it wasn't for my effort, in many pubs I'd be running the whole way from base to the fight on every spawn. And you know what, in my experience some of the worst spammers, are dedicated logis. These changes won't change a lot regarding spam. And by the way, if all the logis equipment is destroyed, why not make every player just glue to his starting role? Why are you suffering under the delusion that the suggestion will destroy ALL uplinks in case of switch? The proposed bw system would allow all deployed uplinks that fit within the band with limits out. The only suit that has zero be is a dentinal, ergo as long as you aren't switching to a sentinal you will keep some uplinks. This effectively functions as a boost to the logistics suit and encourages its use. If you are simply placing uplinks and switching you are part of the problem. As far as equipment spam being a problem it is. It lags the game, discourages actual strategy and encourages an overuse of sentinals with hmgs by allowing people to freely switch and farm wps while being nigh unkillable. If you do not understand this then I am sorry. And how do you miss that there are other options for addressing the equipment spam issues that don't infringe on the players' ability to choose? The choice limitation is primarily a nerf for Logis, since when a heavy switches to scout all the work he did as a heavy he keeps! All frames except Logis will be this way, whereas on the inverse if you do Logistical work and for w/e reason have to switch you LOSE the work you performed! And thats just suit switching between classes, the problem STILL exists switching INSIDE the class ie If I run my Amarr Logi and lay links I'm not going to be able to run my CalLogi and also lay hives! Or If I run my Amarr AV minefield builder I'm not going to be able to then trun around and lay links! And so you know, I'm not talking about spamming out 100 links or hives, just usable quantities to establish and retain Field Control. You know, Combat Logistics? BW limits will force most all gameplay into BlobWork, which I guess is the norm in EVE but really will make DUST boring as hell, since it ISN'T a naval warfare simulator, its a ground combat simulator and while they have similarities they do have inherent differences. Other options are available to address the problems which DON'T saddle the Logistics class player with this negative. A heavys kills stay dead for the entire battle? How have I been respawning? If you want to kill as a logo then use the gun you get. As far as keeping things managable you will still keep uplinks when you switch, Only some are destroyed as according to your new suit. You want to kill stuff in a suit not limited like the logi then fine but you don't keep the bonuses. Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Vell0cet Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2601	Posted - 2014.11.21 20:41:00 - [67] - Quote Have you considered making an AV logi suit? Because that would solve a lot of your complaints. This isn't a nerf to Logis it's a nerf to every other role, and it's an awesome way to address the issue. Best PvE idea ever!
korrah silain True Illuminate 8	Posted - 2014.11.21 20:56:00 - [68] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it b A heavys kills stay dead for the entire battle? How have I been respawning? If you want to kill as a logo then use the gun you get. As far as keeping things managable you will still keep uplinks when you switch, Only some are destroyed as according to your new suit. You want to kill stuff in a suit not limited like the logi then fine but you don't keep the bonuses.[/quote] Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. [/quote] Your entire complaint against this is "but then I lose ALL MY UPLINKS when I switch suits to kill!!! This is dumb because: A) logis switching is the entire problem. B)this effects other suit not the logi suits (as much) because the logis have the bw to have multiple uplinks. Want to farm was/support your team then wear the suit that was intended for it. You can still kill because you have a weapon, want an av fit? Fit a swarmed onto the same suit as a variant then jump back when your mission is accomplished. Same be in same suit no problem there. As for the immortal clone sole comment that was in response to the accusation that heavies don't lose their accomplishments when they spawn, well no but they do lose their only accomplishment (killing) when their victems respawn. It really sounds like you are crying that this "Nerf" to the logis is forcing you to play a logi instead of switching.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 342	Posted - 2014.11.21 21:25:00 - [69] - Quote I think I need to elaborate my point! My problem is that my uplinks (most of them or all when spawning heavy) are DESTROYED. In EVE when you leave your drones in space, do they explode? No they don't you can pick them up in a certain timeframe. It should not be different in Dust. If you switch to a suit with less bandwith, the stuff you put down in a logi suit, should just DEACTIVATE !!! So if you switch back to logi, everything starts to work as before! This is the only way to not punish logies that do not want to play in one role for the whole game. There have been enough games where my 6! upliks that I deploy at every game start have made a difference. My being a dedicated maxed AV minmando is obviously helping as well. Why should I be punished when everybody else can switch with no consequences. The only thing I don't want is the DESTRUCTION of the EQUIPMENT. DEACTIVATION while in a low bandwith suit is FINE! And to fight the spam, we need a hardcap of deployed equipment for every Suit, including a logi! I have played logi exclusively for my first year in dust (since open beta) so I know what I'm talking about. No logi needs more than 10 pieces of Equipment on the ground. If he switches to Assautl, only 4 of those would stay active. If he switches to Commando only 3 would stay active. If he switches to Scout, only 2. And the Fatty would only have one or maybe even nothing active. As soon as he switches back to Logi, everything starts working again (if not destroyed inbetwheen). This would encourage strategic placing of stuff, so that if your close to objective links get destroyed and you are in a low bandwith suit, the older links get reactivated automaticly up to the bandwith limit. This would be a fair solution. Because you wouldn't want to be locked to one role. If stuff above bandwith is DESTROYED, I demand that no suit exept logis can use EQUIPMENT AT ALL. When I have to stay in my Suit the whole game to keep my stuff on the field, nobody else should be able to do part time logi aswell by putting down equipment! Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 533	Posted - 2014.11.21 21:46:00 - [70] - Quote korrah silain wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it b A heavys kills stay dead for the entire battle? How have I been respawning? If you want to kill as a logo then use the gun you get. As far as keeping things managable you will still keep uplinks when you switch, Only some are destroyed as according to your new suit. You want to kill stuff in a suit not limited like the logi then fine but you don't keep the bonuses. Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. [/quote] Your entire complaint against this is "but then I lose ALL MY UPLINKS when I switch suits to kill!!! This is dumb because: A) logis switching is the entire problem. B)this effects other suit not the logi suits (as much) because the logis have the bw to have multiple uplinks. Want to farm was/support your team then wear the suit that was intended for it. You can still kill because you have a weapon, want an av fit? Fit a swarmed onto the same suit as a variant then jump back when your mission is accomplished. Same be in same suit no problem there. As for the immortal clone sole comment that was in response to the accusation that heavies don't lose their accomplishments when they spawn, well no but they do lose their only accomplishment (killing) when their victems respawn. It really sounds like you are crying that this "Nerf" to the logis is forcing you to play a logi instead of switching. Edit: Logos "brah" do you even critical think? (Logos is not a typo of logis it is Latin for logic, one of the three cornerstones of traditional debate the other being ethos: ethical arguments, and pathos, appeals to emotion)[/quote] So lets keep things Logocal and not lose sight of the problem. Equipment spam is the problem, particularly around Supply Depots. Not suit switching. Suit switching YES is HOW many spammers ply their trade HOWEVER is not the actual problem, the SPAM is. So address the SPAM and don't f with the switching! Logo enough for you? As far as my Logi play goes, I am full Logi, through and through. Invested, committed, active at the highest levels of gameplay available. And I guess its these highest levels that very few others participate in that will be hurt that others don't understand because we ALL hate the spam but only a few of us can see there are ways to address it that don't as a peripheral consequence screw other gameplay. If not, allow me to deposit a nice RL parrallel: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

korrah silain True Illuminate 8	Posted - 2014.11.21 21:59:00 - [71] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it b A heavys kills stay dead for the entire battle? How have I been respawning? If you want to kill as a logo then use the gun you get. As far as keeping things managable you will still keep uplinks when you switch, Only some are destroyed as according to your new suit. You want to kill stuff in a suit not limited like the logi then fine but you don't keep the bonuses. Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. Your entire complaint against this is "but then I lose ALL MY UPLINKS when I switch suits to kill!!! This is dumb because: A) logis switching is the entire problem. B)this effects other suit not the logi suits (as much) because the logis have the bw to have multiple uplinks. Want to farm was/support your team then wear the suit that was intended for it. You can still kill because you have a weapon, want an av fit? Fit a swarmed onto the same suit as a variant then jump back when your mission is accomplished. Same be in same suit no problem there. As for the immortal clone sole comment that was in response to the accusation that heavies don't lose their accomplishments when they spawn, well no but they do lose their only accomplishment (killing) when their victems respawn. It really sounds like you are crying that this "Nerf" to the logis is forcing you to play a logi instead of switching. Edit: Logos "brah" do you even critical think? (Logos is not a typo of logis it is Latin for logic, one of the three cornerstones of traditional debate the other being ethos: ethical arguments, and pathos, appeals to emotion)[/quote] So lets keep things Logocal and not lose sight of the problem. Equipment spam is the problem, particularly around Supply Depots. Not suit switching. Suit switching YES is HOW many spammers ply their trade HOWEVER is not the actual problem, the SPAM is. So address the SPAM and don't f with the switching! Logo enough for you? As far as my Logi play goes, I am full Logi, through and through. Invested, committed, active at the highest levels of gameplay available. And I guess its these highest levels that very few others participate in that will be hurt that others don't understand because we ALL hate the spam but only a few of us can see there are ways to address it that don't as a peripheral consequence screw other gameplay. If not, allow me to deposit a nice RL parrallel: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. [/quote] Um except the bandwidth limit does combat spammers because it ALSO limits the amount of equipment out period. So not only does the solution come down hard on the suit switchers, it also comes down on spammers while still giving the logis breathing room. Where is the problem? You have yet to show (besides eliminating suit switching tourist logis) how this needs dedicated logis...so no...not logo enough.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2056	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:08:00 - [72] - Quote korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it b A heavys kills stay dead for the entire battle? How have I been respawning? If you want to kill as a logo then use the gun you get. As far as keeping things managable you will still keep uplinks when you switch, Only some are destroyed as according to your new suit. You want to kill stuff in a suit not limited like the logi then fine but you don't keep the bonuses. Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. Your entire complaint against this is "but then I lose ALL MY UPLINKS when I switch suits to kill!!! This is dumb because: A) logis switching is the entire problem. B)this effects other suit not the logi suits (as much) because the logis have the bw to have multiple uplinks. Want to farm was/support your team then wear the suit that was intended for it. You can still kill because you have a weapon, want an av fit? Fit a swarmed onto the same suit as a variant then jump back when your mission is accomplished. Same be in same suit no problem there. As for the immortal clone sole comment that was in response to the accusation that heavies don't lose their accomplishments when they spawn, well no but they do lose their only accomplishment (killing) when their victems respawn. It really sounds like you are crying that this "Nerf" to the logis is forcing you to play a logi instead of switching. Edit: Logos "brah" do you even critical think? (Logos is not a typo of logis it is Latin for logic, one of the three cornerstones of traditional debate the other being ethos: ethical arguments, and pathos, appeals to emotion) So lets keep things Logocal and not lose sight of the problem. Equipment spam is the problem, particularly around Supply Depots. Not suit switching. Suit switching YES is HOW many spammers ply their trade HOWEVER is not the actual problem, the SPAM is. So address the SPAM and don't f with the switching! Logo enough for you? As far as my Logi play goes, I am full Logi, through and through. Invested, committed, active at the highest levels of gameplay available. And I guess its these highest levels that very few others participate in that will be hurt that others don't understand because we ALL hate the spam but only a few of us can see there are ways to address it that don't as a peripheral consequence screw other gameplay. If not, allow me to deposit a nice RL parrallel: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. [/quote] Um except the bandwidth limit does combat spammers because it ALSO limits the amount of equipment out period. So not only does the solution come down hard on the suit switchers, it also comes down on spammers while still giving the logis breathing room. Where is the problem? You have yet to show (besides eliminating suit switching tourist logis) how this needs dedicated logis...so no...not logo enough.[/quote] the problem is slayers (sentinels and scouts and some assaults) abuseing the logi role just to slap down as much WP generating crap on the ground as possible so they can gain passive wp while they get slayer WP too.. more so i think it was cross who stated that sentinels drop hives/rephives down and just switch to sentinel afterwards to be "stand alone" slayer i could say.. use flux? use EMP?(when its introduced) use mass? use anything with splash! this is why im campaigning against bandwidth UNTILL we have had some time with the NEW ORBITALS to see how they effect the game as i believe with everyone getting acess to solo EMP OB and solo normal OB at reduced cost if you introduce bandwidth AND the new orbitals it could just be like adding too much salt to food.. you cannot really remove the salt afterwards and it leaves an aweful taste in your mouth if you just tolerate it. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 533	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:10:00 - [73] - Quote korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it b A heavys kills stay dead for the entire battle? How have I been respawning? If you want to kill as a logo then use the gun you get. As far as keeping things managable you will still keep uplinks when you switch, Only some are destroyed as according to your new suit. You want to kill stuff in a suit not limited like the logi then fine but you don't keep the bonuses. Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. Your entire complaint against this is "but then I lose ALL MY UPLINKS when I switch suits to kill!!! This is dumb because: A) logis switching is the entire problem. B)this effects other suit not the logi suits (as much) because the logis have the bw to have multiple uplinks. Want to farm was/support your team then wear the suit that was intended for it. You can still kill because you have a weapon, want an av fit? Fit a swarmed onto the same suit as a variant then jump back when your mission is accomplished. Same be in same suit no problem there. As for the immortal clone sole comment that was in response to the accusation that heavies don't lose their accomplishments when they spawn, well no but they do lose their only accomplishment (killing) when their victems respawn. It really sounds like you are crying that this "Nerf" to the logis is forcing you to play a logi instead of switching. Edit: Logos "brah" do you even critical think? (Logos is not a typo of logis it is Latin for logic, one of the three cornerstones of traditional debate the other being ethos: ethical arguments, and pathos, appeals to emotion) So lets keep things Logocal and not lose sight of the problem. Equipment spam is the problem, particularly around Supply Depots. Not suit switching. Suit switching YES is HOW many spammers ply their trade HOWEVER is not the actual problem, the SPAM is. So address the SPAM and don't f with the switching! Logo enough for you? As far as my Logi play goes, I am full Logi, through and through. Invested, committed, active at the highest levels of gameplay available. And I guess its these highest levels that very few others participate in that will be hurt that others don't understand because we ALL hate the spam but only a few of us can see there are ways to address it that don't as a peripheral consequence screw other gameplay. If not, allow me to deposit a nice RL parrallel: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. [/quote] Um except the bandwidth limit does combat spammers because it ALSO limits the amount of equipment out period. So not only does the solution come down hard on the suit switchers, it also comes down on spammers while still giving the logis breathing room. Where is the problem? You have yet to show (besides eliminating suit switching tourist logis) how this needs dedicated logis...so no...not logo enough.[/quote] Because the Logistics gameplay being preserved is blobbing, but the gameplay being sacrificed is actual Combat Logistics. Instead of just solving the SPAM. BW will reduce some forms of spam, agreed, but not all. It will ,however, however eliminate all Logistical gameplay outside of BLOBS. Again, these results, spam elimination, could be achieved WITHOUT reducing all Logistics utility to simply serving the blob. And you can keep trying to frame me as a "tourist" but if you go read the Logistics Support thread all the way through and pay attention to my input there you'll see clearly I am anything but. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Vell0cet Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2602	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:10:00 - [74] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: I think I need to elaborate my point! My problem is that my uplinks (most of them or all when spawning heavy) are DESTROYED. In EVE when you leave your drones in space, do they explode? No they don't you can pick them up in a certain timeframe. It should not be different in Dust. If you switch to a suit with less bandwith, the stuff you put down in a logi suit, should just DEACTIVATE !!! So if you switch back to logi, everything starts to work as before! This is the only way to not punish logies that do not want to play in one role for the whole game. There have been enough games where my 6! upliks that I deploy at every game start have made a difference. My being a dedicated maxed AV minmando is obviously helping as well. Why should I be punished when everybody else can switch with no consequences. The only thing I don't want is the DESTRUCTION of the EQUIPMENT. DEACTIVATION while in a low bandwith suit is FINE! And to fight the spam, we need a hardcap of deployed equipment for every Suit, including a logi! I have played logi exclusively for my first year in dust (since open beta) so I know what I'm talking about. No logi needs more than 10 pieces of Equipment on the ground. If he switches to Assautl, only 4 of those would stay active. If he switches to Commando only 3 would stay active. If he switches to Scout, only 2. And the Fatty would only have one or maybe even nothing active. As soon as he switches back to Logi, everything starts working again (if not destroyed inbetwheen). This would encourage strategic placing of stuff, so that if your close to objective links get destroyed and you are in a low bandwith suit, the older links get reactivated automaticly up to the bandwith limit. This would be a fair solution. Because you wouldn't want to be locked to one role. If stuff above bandwith is DESTROYED, I demand that no suit exept logis can use EQUIPMENT AT ALL. When I have to stay in my Suit the whole game to keep my stuff on the field, nobody else should be able to do part time logi aswell by putting down equipment! If you wanted this to work like EVE, you'd have to approach each piece of deactivated equipment and re-activate it. Best PvE idea ever!
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2057	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:15:00 - [75] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: I think I need to elaborate my point! My problem is that my uplinks (most of them or all when spawning heavy) are DESTROYED. In EVE when you leave your drones in space, do they explode? No they don't you can pick them up in a certain timeframe. It should not be different in Dust. If you switch to a suit with less bandwith, the stuff you put down in a logi suit, should just DEACTIVATE !!! So if you switch back to logi, everything starts to work as before! This is the only way to not punish logies that do not want to play in one role for the whole game. There have been enough games where my 6! upliks that I deploy at every game start have made a difference. My being a dedicated maxed AV minmando is obviously helping as well. Why should I be punished when everybody else can switch with no consequences. The only thing I don't want is the DESTRUCTION of the EQUIPMENT. DEACTIVATION while in a low bandwith suit is FINE! And to fight the spam, we need a hardcap of deployed equipment for every Suit, including a logi! I have played logi exclusively for my first year in dust (since open beta) so I know what I'm talking about. No logi needs more than 10 pieces of Equipment on the ground. If he switches to Assautl, only 4 of those would stay active. If he switches to Commando only 3 would stay active. If he switches to Scout, only 2. And the Fatty would only have one or maybe even nothing active. As soon as he switches back to Logi, everything starts working again (if not destroyed inbetwheen). This would encourage strategic placing of stuff, so that if your close to objective links get destroyed and you are in a low bandwith suit, the older links get reactivated automaticly up to the bandwith limit. This would be a fair solution. Because you wouldn't want to be locked to one role. If stuff above bandwith is DESTROYED, I demand that no suit exept logis can use EQUIPMENT AT ALL. When I have to stay in my Suit the whole game to keep my stuff on the field, nobody else should be able to do part time logi aswell by putting down equipment! If you wanted this to work like EVE, you'd have to approach each piece of deactivated equipment and re-activate it. ugh.. just gives me nightmares thinking about how we had to rep all the POS moduals and the POS to online it again after we sucessfully defend it for the second time [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
korrah silain True Illuminate 9	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:18:00 - [76] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it b A heavys kills stay dead for the entire battle? How have I been respawning? If you want to kill as a logo then use the gun you get. As far as keeping things managable you will still keep uplinks when you switch, Only some are destroyed as according to your new suit. You want to kill stuff in a suit not limited like the logi then fine but you don't keep the bonuses. Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. Your entire complaint against this is "but then I lose ALL MY UPLINKS when I switch suits to kill!!! This is dumb because: A) logis switching is the entire problem. B)this effects other suit not the logi suits (as much) because the logis have the bw to have multiple uplinks. Want to farm was/support your team then wear the suit that was intended for it. You can still kill because you have a weapon, want an av fit? Fit a swarmed onto the same suit as a variant then jump back when your mission is accomplished. Same be in same suit no problem there. As for the immortal clone sole comment that was in response to the accusation that heavies don't lose their accomplishments when they spawn, well no but they do lose their only accomplishment (killing) when their victems respawn. It really sounds like you are crying that this "Nerf" to the logis is forcing you to play a logi instead of switching. Edit: Logos "brah" do you even critical think? (Logos is not a typo of logis it is Latin for logic, one of the three cornerstones of traditional debate the other being ethos: ethical arguments, and pathos, appeals to emotion) So lets keep things Logocal and not lose sight of the problem. Equipment spam is the problem, particularly around Supply Depots. Not suit switching. Suit switching YES is HOW many spammers ply their trade HOWEVER is not the actual problem, the SPAM is. So address the SPAM and don't f with the switching! Logo enough for you? As far as my Logi play goes, I am full Logi, through and through. Invested, committed, active at the highest levels of gameplay available. And I guess its these highest levels that very few others participate in that will be hurt that others don't understand because we ALL hate the spam but only a few of us can see there are ways to address it that don't as a peripheral consequence screw other gameplay. If not, allow me to deposit a nice RL parrallel: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Um except the bandwidth limit does combat spammers because it ALSO limits the amount of equipment out period. So not only does the solution come down hard on the suit switchers, it also comes down on spammers while still giving the logis breathing room. Where is the problem? You have yet to show (besides eliminating suit switching tourist logis) how this needs dedicated logis...so no...not logo enough.[/quote] Because the Logistics gameplay being preserved is blobbing, but the gameplay being sacrificed is actual Combat Logistics. Instead of just solving the SPAM. BW will reduce some forms of spam, agreed, but not all. It will ,however, however eliminate all Logistical gameplay outside of BLOBS. Again, these results, spam elimination, could be achieved WITHOUT reducing all Logistics utility to simply serving the blob. And you can keep trying to frame me as a "tourist" but if you go read the Logistics Support thread all the way through and pay attention to my input there you'll see clearly I am anything but. [/quote] How is this solution eliminating logistic and strategic placement? If anything it should encourage it considering your limited resources need to be use more effectively. I have seen matches where as few as 4 uplinks were deployed and allowed the team full effective tactical movement? And if you have another idea in another thread then post a link. As it stands here I am arguing for band width because it seems all the complaints I hear are incorrect, lacking evidence, or frivolous. (And I still see no evidence for your arguments...perhaps examples would help?)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 533	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:21:00 - [77] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: I think I need to elaborate my point! My problem is that my uplinks (most of them or all when spawning heavy) are DESTROYED. In EVE when you leave your drones in space, do they explode? No they don't you can pick them up in a certain timeframe. It should not be different in Dust. If you switch to a suit with less bandwith, the stuff you put down in a logi suit, should just DEACTIVATE !!! So if you switch back to logi, everything starts to work as before! This is the only way to not punish logies that do not want to play in one role for the whole game. There have been enough games where my 6! upliks that I deploy at every game start have made a difference. My being a dedicated maxed AV minmando is obviously helping as well. Why should I be punished when everybody else can switch with no consequences. The only thing I don't want is the DESTRUCTION of the EQUIPMENT. DEACTIVATION while in a low bandwith suit is FINE! And to fight the spam, we need a hardcap of deployed equipment for every Suit, including a logi! I have played logi exclusively for my first year in dust (since open beta) so I know what I'm talking about. No logi needs more than 10 pieces of Equipment on the ground. If he switches to Assautl, only 4 of those would stay active. If he switches to Commando only 3 would stay active. If he switches to Scout, only 2. And the Fatty would only have one or maybe even nothing active. As soon as he switches back to Logi, everything starts working again (if not destroyed inbetwheen). This would encourage strategic placing of stuff, so that if your close to objective links get destroyed and you are in a low bandwith suit, the older links get reactivated automaticly up to the bandwith limit. This would be a fair solution. Because you wouldn't want to be locked to one role. If stuff above bandwith is DESTROYED, I demand that no suit exept logis can use EQUIPMENT AT ALL. When I have to stay in my Suit the whole game to keep my stuff on the field, nobody else should be able to do part time logi aswell by putting down equipment! If you wanted this to work like EVE, you'd have to approach each piece of deactivated equipment and re-activate it. Not everything in here has to work exactly like EVE. If EVE mechanics were that great after all this time that game would be way bigger, not to knock EVE but jus' sayin'. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2058	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:29:00 - [78] - Quote korrah silain wrote: too many quites.. something about logi being useless outside of blobs very true.. i have seen logis slowly dieing off.. we are the second least used suit in the game only slightly less then commando! logi cannot hardly make WP with out uplinks being somewhat persistant(so sorry shayz i dont like your 18 uplink with 3 spawns per uplink idea, because of scouts) so they can get some WP why they perform necessary actions like hacking minor objectives (silos/CRUs vehicles) a logi comes into his own when he is on the front line of a locked gun-battle with uplinks calling in the Un-reviveable clones to bolster the front line but also supply ammo to the troops to keep the locked battle going.. over the number of nerfs and changes locked battles have become somewhat of a fable of late... which i can attest with out these locked battles logi are midway or even at the lower end of the EOM ranking.. with scout/sentinel usually being the top 3 now.. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2058	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:33:00 - [79] - Quote korrah silain wrote: How is this solution eliminating logistic and strategic placement? If anything it should encourage it considering your limited resources need to be use more effectively. I have seen matches where as few as 4 uplinks were deployed and allowed the team full effective tactical movement? And if you have another idea in another thread then post a link. As it stands here I am arguing for band width because it seems all the complaints I hear are incorrect, lacking evidence, or frivolous. (And I still see no evidence for your arguments...perhaps examples would help?) a simple idea could be dont allow equipment that is uplink/hive/triage-hive to be placed with in 10 to 15 m of a silo.. this may stop a little of the spam. but even so on that one map with the underground silo i find a Leeroy scout with flux nades clears it all up nice and quick and get a chunk of WP too.. when we get Solo and team EMP orbitals this will make it even easier.. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4665	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:36:00 - [80] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: I remember this thread and the irony in your reposting seems lost on you considering it's basically 18 pages of defense of Logistics playstyle that will be eliminated with BW imposition as proposed. BW imposition that, largely, is agreed upon as not really eliminating the spam issue it's meant to address. Ever heard the phrase, "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"? You're giving up a bird in our hand for nothing in a bush. Thats a nerf . EDIT: Oh, and handing over Athena Sentinel the victory s/he was looking for in posting that thread. So, one, how is that "largely" agreed upon, exactly? By whom.. You and the OP? As for that fool Athena, what victory? Never got what she wanted, and still won't. I can still swap at a supply depot to switch from an uplink suit to a medic suit, or even a nanohive suit, provided I don't need (not want) more than 8 pieces of EQ out, which I rarely do. This is basically the last time I'm going to respond to one of your posts on the subject of BW because it's simply not getting anywhere. Amarrian God as my witness, I honestly don't think you have the slightest clue how this system really works and what it's intended to do. I am not trolling in any way when I say that. Your comments about this being a buff to scouts somehow, for example, simply defy logic. Bandwith is not a fcking buff to scouts, that makes exactly zero sense. It's not a major buff to logis either, but, stay with me here, thats not the purpose of it. The purpose is to limit EQ spam as much as possible while limiting the impact on dedicated logis as much as possible.* To put it another way, BANDWITH NERFS EVERYONE'S ABILITY TO DROP EQUIPMENT. IT NERFS LOGIS SUBSTANTIALLY LESS. WE ARE NOT TRYING TO TOTALLY FIX LOGIS HERE WITH THIS ONE THING AND STOP THERE. The major buffs to logis are still needed, still on the table, and are not directly related to this in any way. Tell you what, give me a better proposal. Come up with an actual proposal specifically designed to reduce spam.: - Not some nebulous combination of things we've been talking about in Cross' thread. - Not buffing logis in a way unrelated to equipment. Focus! - Not nerfing scouts in a way unrelated to equipment (your scout rage is clouding your judgement, tbh) - Not solo orbitals - Not the radius thing which, yes, is a great idea, which is why I've suggested it 83 times, but you can claim to be whatever amazing coding guru you want, if the developers of the damn game specifically say they can't do it, I'm gonna drop it and move on to something that can actually be done.\ - Not some pie in the sky idea that's not practical - and for the love of God not a blanket restriction of x number of peices of equipment on everyone. Anyone who thinks that's a better solution from the logi perspective should be immediately sterilized as for the good of the human race they should not be allowed to pass on their DNA. Do not mention any of those things, give me a better way to do it that's feasible, will, work, and have much less effect on people in logi suits than everyone else. Do that and I'll stop supporting BW and promote yours. (The godfather of tactical logistics)

korrah silain True Illuminate 9	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:36:00 - [81] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: korrah silain wrote: How is this solution eliminating logistic and strategic placement? If anything it should encourage it considering your limited resources need to be use more effectively. I have seen matches where as few as 4 uplinks were deployed and allowed the team full effective tactical movement? And if you have another idea in another thread then post a link. As it stands here I am arguing for band width because it seems all the complaints I hear are incorrect, lacking evidence, or frivolous. (And I still see no evidence for your arguments...perhaps examples would help?) a simple idea could be dont allow equipment that is uplink/hive/triage-hive to be placed with in 10 to 15 m of a silo.. this may stop a little of the spam. but even so on that one map with the underground silo i find a Leeroy scout with flux nades clears it all up nice and quick and get a chunk of WP too.. when we get Solo and team EMP orbitals this will make it even easier.. Yeah its not just around silos that there is a problem. It is all over.
Vell0cet Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2602	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:38:00 - [82] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Vell0cet wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: I think I need to elaborate my point! My problem is that my uplinks (most of them or all when spawning heavy) are DESTROYED. In EVE when you leave your drones in space, do they explode? No they don't you can pick them up in a certain timeframe. It should not be different in Dust. If you switch to a suit with less bandwith, the stuff you put down in a logi suit, should just DEACTIVATE !!! So if you switch back to logi, everything starts to work as before! This is the only way to not punish logies that do not want to play in one role for the whole game. There have been enough games where my 6! upliks that I deploy at every game start have made a difference. My being a dedicated maxed AV minmando is obviously helping as well. Why should I be punished when everybody else can switch with no consequences. The only thing I don't want is the DESTRUCTION of the EQUIPMENT. DEACTIVATION while in a low bandwith suit is FINE! And to fight the spam, we need a hardcap of deployed equipment for every Suit, including a logi! I have played logi exclusively for my first year in dust (since open beta) so I know what I'm talking about. No logi needs more than 10 pieces of Equipment on the ground. If he switches to Assautl, only 4 of those would stay active. If he switches to Commando only 3 would stay active. If he switches to Scout, only 2. And the Fatty would only have one or maybe even nothing active. As soon as he switches back to Logi, everything starts working again (if not destroyed inbetwheen). This would encourage strategic placing of stuff, so that if your close to objective links get destroyed and you are in a low bandwith suit, the older links get reactivated automaticly up to the bandwith limit. This would be a fair solution. Because you wouldn't want to be locked to one role. If stuff above bandwith is DESTROYED, I demand that no suit exept logis can use EQUIPMENT AT ALL. When I have to stay in my Suit the whole game to keep my stuff on the field, nobody else should be able to do part time logi aswell by putting down equipment! If you wanted this to work like EVE, you'd have to approach each piece of deactivated equipment and re-activate it. Not everything in here has to work exactly like EVE. If EVE mechanics were that great after all this time that game would be way bigger, not to knock EVE but jus' sayin'. I agree that not everything has to work like EVE. Which is why I love the way CCP Rattati wants to do it. My point was that if they were to implement an activation/reactivation mechanic because it was more like EVE, then you'd have to manually reactivate stuff. Best PvE idea ever!
korrah silain True Illuminate 9	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:40:00 - [83] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I remember this thread and the irony in your reposting seems lost on you considering it's basically 18 pages of defense of Logistics playstyle that will be eliminated with BW imposition as proposed. BW imposition that, largely, is agreed upon as not really eliminating the spam issue it's meant to address. Ever heard the phrase, "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"? You're giving up a bird in our hand for nothing in a bush. Thats a nerf . EDIT: Oh, and handing over Athena Sentinel the victory s/he was looking for in posting that thread. So, one, how is that "largely" agreed upon, exactly? By whom.. You and the OP? As for that fool Athena, what victory? Never got what she wanted, and still won't. I can still swap at a supply depot to switch from an uplink suit to a medic suit, or even a nanohive suit, provided I don't need (not want) more than 8 pieces of EQ out, which I rarely do. This is basically the last time I'm going to respond to one of your posts on the subject of BW because it's simply not getting anywhere. Amarrian God as my witness, I honestly don't think you have the slightest clue how this system really works and what it's intended to do. I am not trolling in any way when I say that. Your comments about this being a buff to scouts somehow, for example, simply defy logic. Bandwith is not a fcking buff to scouts, that makes exactly zero sense. It's not a major buff to logis either, but, stay with me here, thats not the purpose of it. The purpose is to limit EQ spam as much as possible while limiting the impact on dedicated logis as much as possible.* To put it another way, BANDWITH NERFS EVERYONE'S ABILITY TO DROP EQUIPMENT. IT NERFS LOGIS SUBSTANTIALLY LESS. WE ARE NOT TRYING TO TOTALLY FIX LOGIS HERE WITH THIS ONE THING AND STOP THERE. The major buffs to logis are still needed, still on the table, and are not directly related to this in any way. Tell you what, give me a better proposal. Come up with an actual proposal specifically designed to reduce spam.: - Not some nebulous combination of things we've been talking about in Cross' thread. - Not buffing logis in a way unrelated to equipment. Focus! - Not nerfing scouts in a way unrelated to equipment (your scout rage is clouding your judgement, tbh) - Not solo orbitals - Not the radius thing which, yes, is a great idea, which is why I've suggested it 83 times, but you can claim to be whatever amazing coding guru you want, if the developers of the damn game specifically say they can't do it, I'm gonna drop it and move on to something that can actually be done.\ - Not some pie in the sky idea that's not practical - and for the love of God not a blanket restriction of x number of peices of equipment on everyone. Anyone who thinks that's a better solution from the logi perspective should be immediately sterilized as for the good of the human race they should not be allowed to pass on their DNA. Do not mention any of those things, give me a better way to do it that's feasible, will, work, and have much less effect on people in logi suits than everyone else. Do that and I'll stop supporting BW and promote yours. Well earlier I had suggested that we limit equipments deployable byhighest level equipped (proto giving 3 uplinks, adv2, and std/mlta 1...)
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2058	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:48:00 - [84] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: No logi needs more than 10 pieces of Equipment on the ground. If stuff above bandwith is DESTROYED, I demand that no suit exept logis can use EQUIPMENT AT ALL. at most i use 3 uplinks.. maybe 1 hive at a time unless choakpoint gunfight of which i slap down 2 triage hives and try to get 2 ammo hives up too.. so thats.. 3+1(4) normal or 3+2+2(7) for heated gunbattles at choakpoints and if proximity mines didnt suck soo much rectum id probably slap a few on a bridge.. probably just 1 meta type.. since i can only use standard atm that would be another 3 to 4 soo that could be 10-11 equipment total IF its a heated gunbattle at a choakpoint, on/near a bridge, and hostiles dont flux/shoot my equipment for +5 WP each... which in the afore mentioned scenario is near imposable to do already as active scanner buff shows ALL the hostiles where my equipment is including mines.. and 1 flux can undo maybe 1 to 3 minutes of work.. and all this is even before i pull out my Rep-tool or injector... and now you see why logi is becomming a dieing role? [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 534	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:56:00 - [85] - Quote korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. Your entire complaint against this is "but then I lose ALL MY UPLINKS when I switch suits to kill!!! This is dumb because: A) logis switching is the entire problem. B)this effects other suit not the logi suits (as much) because the logis have the bw to have multiple uplinks. Want to farm was/support your team then wear the suit that was intended for it. You can still kill because you have a weapon, want an av fit? Fit a swarmed onto the same suit as a variant then jump back when your mission is accomplished. Same be in same suit no problem there. As for the immortal clone sole comment that was in response to the accusation that heavies don't lose their accomplishments when they spawn, well no but they do lose their only accomplishment (killing) when their victems respawn. It really sounds like you are crying that this "Nerf" to the logis is forcing you to play a logi instead of switching. Edit: Logos "brah" do you even critical think? (Logos is not a typo of logis it is Latin for logic, one of the three cornerstones of traditional debate the other being ethos: ethical arguments, and pathos, appeals to emotion) So lets keep things Logocal and not lose sight of the problem. Equipment spam is the problem, particularly around Supply Depots. Not suit switching. Suit switching YES is HOW many spammers ply their trade HOWEVER is not the actual problem, the SPAM is. So address the SPAM and don't f with the switching! Logo enough for you? As far as my Logi play goes, I am full Logi, through and through. Invested, committed, active at the highest levels of gameplay available. And I guess its these highest levels that very few others participate in that will be hurt that others don't understand because we ALL hate the spam but only a few of us can see there are ways to address it that don't as a peripheral consequence screw other gameplay. If not, allow me to deposit a nice RL parrallel: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Um except the bandwidth limit does combat spammers because it ALSO limits the amount of equipment out period. So not only does the solution come down hard on the suit switchers, it also comes down on spammers while still giving the logis breathing room. Where is the problem? You have yet to show (besides eliminating suit switching tourist logis) how this needs dedicated logis...so no...not logo enough. Because the Logistics gameplay being preserved is blobbing, but the gameplay being sacrificed is actual Combat Logistics. Instead of just solving the SPAM. BW will reduce some forms of spam, agreed, but not all. It will ,however, however eliminate all Logistical gameplay outside of BLOBS. Again, these results, spam elimination, could be achieved WITHOUT reducing all Logistics utility to simply serving the blob. And you can keep trying to frame me as a "tourist" but if you go read the Logistics Support thread all the way through and pay attention to my input there you'll see clearly I am anything but. [/quote] How is this solution eliminating logistic and strategic placement? If anything it should encourage it considering your limited resources need to be use more effectively. I have seen matches where as few as 4 uplinks were deployed and allowed the team full effective tactical movement? And if you have another idea in another thread then post a link. As it stands here I am arguing for band width because it seems all the complaints I hear are incorrect, lacking evidence, or frivolous. (And I still see no evidence for your arguments...perhaps examples would help?)[/quote] Sorry bud, I'm willing to show you where to look, but I'm not going to do your homework for you. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=171586&find=unread That is the thread. Frankly, if you're not familiar with all the changes going on right now with regards to Logistics as a class and Logistics as gameplay on behalf of the Logistics Community I'd appreciate your not coming partway in on a lengthy conversation (check those dates) and making statements regarding accuracy, evidence or frivolity. Its counter-logocal and counter productive. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
korrah silain True Illuminate 9	Posted - 2014.11.21 23:23:00 - [86] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. Your entire complaint against this is "but then I lose ALL MY UPLINKS when I switch suits to kill!!! This is dumb because: A) logis switching is the entire problem. B)this effects other suit not the logi suits (as much) because the logis have the bw to have multiple uplinks. Want to farm was/support your team then wear the suit that was intended for it. You can still kill because you have a weapon, want an av fit? Fit a swarmed onto the same suit as a variant then jump back when your mission is accomplished. Same be in same suit no problem there. As for the immortal clone sole comment that was in response to the accusation that heavies don't lose their accomplishments when they spawn, well no but they do lose their only accomplishment (killing) when their victems respawn. It really sounds like you are crying that this "Nerf" to the logis is forcing you to play a logi instead of switching. Edit: Logos "brah" do you even critical think? (Logos is not a typo of logis it is Latin for logic, one of the three cornerstones of traditional debate the other being ethos: ethical arguments, and pathos, appeals to emotion) So lets keep things Logocal and not lose sight of the problem. Equipment spam is the problem, particularly around Supply Depots. Not suit switching. Suit switching YES is HOW many spammers ply their trade HOWEVER is not the actual problem, the SPAM is. So address the SPAM and don't f with the switching! Logo enough for you? As far as my Logi play goes, I am full Logi, through and through. Invested, committed, active at the highest levels of gameplay available. And I guess its these highest levels that very few others participate in that will be hurt that others don't understand because we ALL hate the spam but only a few of us can see there are ways to address it that don't as a peripheral consequence screw other gameplay. If not, allow me to deposit a nice RL parrallel: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Um except the bandwidth limit does combat spammers because it ALSO limits the amount of equipment out period. So not only does the solution come down hard on the suit switchers, it also comes down on spammers while still giving the logis breathing room. Where is the problem? You have yet to show (besides eliminating suit switching tourist logis) how this needs dedicated logis...so no...not logo enough. Because the Logistics gameplay being preserved is blobbing, but the gameplay being sacrificed is actual Combat Logistics. Instead of just solving the SPAM. BW will reduce some forms of spam, agreed, but not all. It will ,however, however eliminate all Logistical gameplay outside of BLOBS. Again, these results, spam elimination, could be achieved WITHOUT reducing all Logistics utility to simply serving the blob. And you can keep trying to frame me as a "tourist" but if you go read the Logistics Support thread all the way through and pay attention to my input there you'll see clearly I am anything but. How is this solution eliminating logistic and strategic placement? If anything it should encourage it considering your limited resources need to be use more effectively. I have seen matches where as few as 4 uplinks were deployed and allowed the team full effective tactical movement? And if you have another idea in another thread then post a link. As it stands here I am arguing for band width because it seems all the complaints I hear are incorrect, lacking evidence, or frivolous. (And I still see no evidence for your arguments...perhaps examples would help?)[/quote] Sorry bud, I'm willing to show you where to look, but I'm not going to do your homework for you. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=171586&find=unread That is the thread. Frankly, if you're not familiar with all the changes going on right now with regards to Logistics as a class and Logistics as gameplay on behalf of the Logistics Community I'd appreciate your not coming partway in on a lengthy conversation (check those dates) and making statements regarding accuracy, evidence or frivolity. Its counter-logocal and counter productive. [/quote] 1) so only logis can talk about how to balance equipment spam issues? Then as a scout can I talk about the cloak field issues? Cuz I'd like the delay gone, and eware back, on and maybe a decloak animation extension... 2) as was stated above, this isn't about fixing logis its about fixing eq spam, and yes its going to affect logis but not nearly as much as everyone else. 3) seeing as logis will still be able to put out more equipment than anyone else I fail to see how saying this isn't hurting the logis but further making them a necessity by cutting down other suits role infringements is frivolous.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3976	Posted - 2014.11.21 23:50:00 - [87] - Quote Slave of MORTE wrote: Neither seem like a great solution especially when applied to pc..how many players would have to run dedicated spawns in order for pc ..at least 1 per objective......yall enjoy that That good sir is called opportunity cost and is very much a part of tactical game play. Choosing how to invest your limited resources in a synergistic manner that best supports your plan of action is, for my 0.02 ISK, exactly what competitive game modes like PC should require of their teams and team leaders. If the choices or trade offs were easy/consequence free they would lack substance and relevance. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.11.22 00:28:00 - [88] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I remember this thread and the irony in your reposting seems lost on you considering it's basically 18 pages of defense of Logistics playstyle that will be eliminated with BW imposition as proposed. BW imposition that, largely, is agreed upon as not really eliminating the spam issue it's meant to address. Ever heard the phrase, "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"? You're giving up a bird in our hand for nothing in a bush. Thats a nerf . EDIT: Oh, and handing over Athena Sentinel the victory s/he was looking for in posting that thread. So, one, how is that "largely" agreed upon, exactly? By whom.. You and the OP? As for that fool Athena, what victory? Never got what she wanted, and still won't. I can still swap at a supply depot to switch from an uplink suit to a medic suit, or even a nanohive suit, provided I don't need (not want) more than 8 pieces of EQ out, which I rarely do. This is basically the last time I'm going to respond to one of your posts on the subject of BW because it's simply not getting anywhere. Amarrian God as my witness, I honestly don't think you have the slightest clue how this system really works and what it's intended to do. I am not trolling in any way when I say that. Your comments about me not understanding the point of my own post, or this being a buff to scouts somehow, for example, simply defy logic. Bandwith is not a fcking buff to scouts, that makes exactly zero sense. It's not a major buff to logis either, but, stay with me here, thats not the purpose of it. The purpose is to limit EQ spam as much as possible while limiting the impact on dedicated logis as much as possible.* To put it another way, BANDWITH NERFS EVERYONE'S ABILITY TO DROP EQUIPMENT. IT NERFS LOGIS SUBSTANTIALLY LESS. WE ARE NOT TRYING TO TOTALLY FIX LOGIS HERE WITH THIS ONE THING AND STOP THERE. The major buffs to logis are still needed, still on the table, and are not directly related to this in any way. Tell you what, give me a better proposal. Come up with an actual proposal specifically designed to reduce spam.: - Not some nebulous combination of things we've been talking about in Cross' thread. - Not buffing logis in a way unrelated to equipment. Focus man! - Not nerfing scouts in a way unrelated to equipment (your scout rage is clouding your judgement, tbh) - Not solo orbitals - Not the radius thing which, yes, is a great idea, which is why I've suggested it 83 times, but you can claim to be whatever amazing coding guru you want, if the developers of the damn game specifically say they can't do it, I'm gonna drop it and move on to something that can actually be done.\ - Not some pie in the sky idea that's not practical - and for the love of God not a blanket restriction of x number of peices of equipment on everyone. Anyone who thinks that's a better solution from the logi perspective should be immediately sterilized as for the good of the human race they should not be allowed to pass on their DNA. Do not mention any of those things, give me a better way to do it that's feasible, will work, and have much less effect on people in logi suits than everyone else. Do that and I'll stop supporting BW and promote yours. lol, you might want to go read that thread again bruv, it is literally 18 pages of old pro's (damn I miss DS10) saying suit swapping on the logi side is A-OK. Logibro I believe is in there too. You've already seen my input on getting Logistics (and opportunity spam) away from tourists in the support thread, but to recap -Logistics becomes Dropsuit Command level 5 for entry. If we really want to seal the deal on only allowing the serious in, make Electronics and Engineering level 3 entry requirements as well. -Enact equipment timers. That link/hive cluster doesn't actually get used within say, 7 minutes of placement its capacitor dies. -Enact equipment placement boundaries. I understand you accept the line coders can't make it happen but I don't. Especially since the most recent gamecode doesn't allow me to call in a vehicle within clear and open areas of the cities when before I could. Its a glitch, I understand. Find that glitch, fix it for vehicles and then apply it to depots. -Scouts lose the second equipment slot. You know where I'm at with that, its been my original idea for balance for a while but been poopoo'd, maybe now in light of all the rest of the hubbub you'll recognize that if anyone should have a limit on deploying equipment it shouldn't be a frame whose main purpose is deployment and use of equipment. -Suit switching limits applied to depots. Sorry bro, there's only so many times you can switch here within x amount of time . Come back later. -Overhead map a total clusterfuck of aquamarine interfering with your ability to see where spawns are vs. hives or consoles? Change the damn colors. -Oh and Cross' idea about revamping equipment use quantities vs carried. One out of health and out of ammo merc running past that depot would use most everything there. -Solo OBs, EMP configured that are cheap, easy and permeate the walls. You see a pile of gear, nuke it. For 100 WP. Is that 5? 7? Literally pulled from my immediate memory of these things, and all will address spam just as much as the current with none (maybe one or two) having the sort of overarching ill-effects BW will. And a word about scouts: I am NOT a scout-hater. I am an IMBALANCE hater. scouts are imbalanced and have been for a looong time. Too long, in fact. And if they're fixed in place stat-wise, never to be adjusted again then serious buffs need to be afforded to ALL other classes to counter the imbalance. And they need to STOP their interference of those processes. I said it then and I'll say it again It IS DISGUSTING that they would do so. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.11.22 00:31:00 - [89] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Slave of MORTE wrote: Neither seem like a great solution especially when applied to pc..how many players would have to run dedicated spawns in order for pc ..at least 1 per objective......yall enjoy that That good sir is called opportunity cost and is very much a part of tactical game play. Choosing how to invest your limited resources in a synergistic manner that best supports your plan of action is, for my 0.02 ISK, exactly what competitive game modes like PC should require of their teams and team leaders. If the choices or trade offs were easy/consequence free they would lack substance and relevance. Top level PC is full of everybody running, placing and destroying links. Mainly since scouts are spammed (HARD) and scout-logi ability is allowed to be a "thing". Oh, and it'll just be worse if the equipment profile stuff happens since scouts will see all, and can run/jump into areas inaccessible to everyone else, some corners OB proof included. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.11.22 00:42:00 - [90] - Quote Oh, and John? If you don't feel that responding to me is in your best interest I'm ok with that. I'll continue pointing out where you're illogical or incorrect and you can sit mute with nothing to say just like anyone else who's entirely bloated on their own opinion and has the flaws in it made readily apparent for anyone else who comes along to see. If, that's how you want to be. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.11.22 01:02:00 - [91] - Quote One more (since I went and did something else and thought of it): -Since we can't code in an inability to deploy equipment around depots how about coding an inability to bring up the equipment menu while in proximity of a depot? Could the coders handle that? Since they can handle (apparently) coding in BW and making sure the numbers always work, like Amarr Logi uplink bonuses? Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.11.22 01:06:00 - [92] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Vell0cet wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: I think I need to elaborate my point! My problem is that my uplinks (most of them or all when spawning heavy) are DESTROYED. In EVE when you leave your drones in space, do they explode? No they don't you can pick them up in a certain timeframe. It should not be different in Dust. If you switch to a suit with less bandwith, the stuff you put down in a logi suit, should just DEACTIVATE !!! So if you switch back to logi, everything starts to work as before! This is the only way to not punish logies that do not want to play in one role for the whole game. There have been enough games where my 6! upliks that I deploy at every game start have made a difference. My being a dedicated maxed AV minmando is obviously helping as well. Why should I be punished when everybody else can switch with no consequences. The only thing I don't want is the DESTRUCTION of the EQUIPMENT. DEACTIVATION while in a low bandwith suit is FINE! And to fight the spam, we need a hardcap of deployed equipment for every Suit, including a logi! I have played logi exclusively for my first year in dust (since open beta) so I know what I'm talking about. No logi needs more than 10 pieces of Equipment on the ground. If he switches to Assautl, only 4 of those would stay active. If he switches to Commando only 3 would stay active. If he switches to Scout, only 2. And the Fatty would only have one or maybe even nothing active. As soon as he switches back to Logi, everything starts working again (if not destroyed inbetwheen). This would encourage strategic placing of stuff, so that if your close to objective links get destroyed and you are in a low bandwith suit, the older links get reactivated automaticly up to the bandwith limit. This would be a fair solution. Because you wouldn't want to be locked to one role. If stuff above bandwith is DESTROYED, I demand that no suit exept logis can use EQUIPMENT AT ALL. When I have to stay in my Suit the whole game to keep my stuff on the field, nobody else should be able to do part time logi aswell by putting down equipment! If you wanted this to work like EVE, you'd have to approach each piece of deactivated equipment and re-activate it. Not everything in here has to work exactly like EVE. If EVE mechanics were that great after all this time that game would be way bigger, not to knock EVE but jus' sayin'. I agree that not everything has to work like EVE. Which is why I love the way CCP Rattati wants to do it. My point was that if they were to implement an activation/reactivation mechanic because it was more like EVE, then you'd have to manually reactivate stuff. Cool, I get that. I just cringe when people point at EVE sometimes and insist what happens here mechanically should automatically be identical to how it works there mechanically. I actually kinda like the deactivation/reactivation element and think it could allow for some creative expansion of the reptool's ability, maybe as the device used to reactivate dormant gear OR hack dormant equipment from the enemy side. Could be cool. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2060	Posted - 2014.11.22 01:27:00 - [93] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Slave of MORTE wrote: Neither seem like a great solution especially when applied to pc..how many players would have to run dedicated spawns in order for pc ..at least 1 per objective......yall enjoy that That good sir is called opportunity cost and is very much a part of tactical game play. Choosing how to invest your limited resources in a synergistic manner that best supports your plan of action is, for my 0.02 ISK, exactly what competitive game modes like PC should require of their teams and team leaders. If the choices or trade offs were easy/consequence free they would lack substance and relevance. pc isnt competative, its just an isk farm propped up by mule corps to block other corps hitting the parent corp. competative would be bringing back Corp vs Corp but as there is too muck isk flow from pubs+PC and FW isnt stemming that tide CvC would have to have no isk payouts.. but perhaps a FW style salvage system.. and can be played at anytime when 2 corps decide to Epeen joust to see whos got the bigger D*** and/or bankroll.. as incentive maybe have the corp gain/lose ranks for win/lose.. and maybe have prizes for those who are in the top 3.. like bronze silver and gold.. each "season" is 1 month long. and corps cannot bring in "ringers" unless they have been a member of the corp for atleast a full season and/or joins the corp before the next season to actually count for that corp.. this could open a market for actually hireing players for a month to fight for the corp.. bringing some "mercenary" aspect to the players [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 343	Posted - 2014.11.22 01:52:00 - [94] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: I agree that not everything has to work like EVE. Which is why I love the way CCP Rattati wants to do it. My point was that if they were to implement an activation/reactivation mechanic because it was more like EVE, then you'd have to manually reactivate stuff. In eve you just warp to a place and clickeldiclick its put in your cargo and then in the drones bay again... If we could do that on the map, no problem. And there was something invented in the last century called radio links... we don't need to go back to the 18th century and flick switches on our hives and links. But really, I'm getting tired of this mess. CCP tries to fix something in a horribly complicated way, without fixing the real issue. I think it's time to think about something else, to bring logis back. Make certain equipment only usable by certain Suits. Logis: everything except cloaks Assaults: Compact hives (only one carried) and injectors. Commandos: Ammo hives and remotes (they area denial and AV). Scouts: Cloaks and Uplinks (only 2 on the ground at any time and only 5 spawns per link, the good links are coming with the logis) Heavies: Nada, they have (should have) logi friends. All repping (except the compact hives of the Assaults) Is done by logis. All active scanning is also done by the logis alone. If you switch your suit, all stuff that is not compatible with the new suit, makes boom. Have fun with LOGI 514 Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4668	Posted - 2014.11.22 03:11:00 - [95] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Oh, and John? If you don't feel that responding to me is in your best interest I'm ok with that. I'll continue pointing out where you're illogical or incorrect and you can sit mute with nothing to say just like anyone else who's entirely bloated on their own opinion and has the flaws in it made readily apparent for anyone else who comes along to see. If, that's how you want to be. Well, considering that, instead of an actual proposal for EQ spam, you repeated the same off-topic ideas I predicted you would, I think I'm good. It's too bad you wouldn't rather take this idea and improve upon it with ones that actually have some merit in exploring, like the reviving EQ with reptools concept. Instead you dismiss it out of hand, propose fixes to unrelated things, or perseverate on solutions that are not workable. Speaking of which, if you'd like to sit there with your fingers in your ears yelling "lalalala I can't hear you" until CCP Glinda finally admits that, yes Dorothy, we had the power all along, we just didn't want to make the three mouse clicks necessary to enact the installation radius thing, we were just trolling... you go ahead and do that. I'm moving on to find something we can fix. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.11.22 03:52:00 - [96] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Slave of MORTE wrote: Neither seem like a great solution especially when applied to pc..how many players would have to run dedicated spawns in order for pc ..at least 1 per objective......yall enjoy that That good sir is called opportunity cost and is very much a part of tactical game play. Choosing how to invest your limited resources in a synergistic manner that best supports your plan of action is, for my 0.02 ISK, exactly what competitive game modes like PC should require of their teams and team leaders. If the choices or trade offs were easy/consequence free they would lack substance and relevance. pc isnt competative, its just an isk farm propped up by mule corps to block other corps hitting the parent corp. competative would be bringing back Corp vs Corp but as there is too muck isk flow from pubs+PC and FW isnt stemming that tide CvC would have to have no isk payouts.. but perhaps a FW style salvage system.. and can be played at anytime when 2 corps decide to Epeen joust to see whos got the bigger D*** and/or bankroll.. as incentive maybe have the corp gain/lose ranks for win/lose.. and maybe have prizes for those who are in the top 3.. like bronze silver and gold.. each "season" is 1 month long. and corps cannot bring in "ringers" unless they have been a member of the corp for atleast a full season and/or joins the corp before the next season to actually count for that corp.. this could open a market for actually hireing players for a month to fight for the corp.. bringing some "mercenary" aspect to the players pfffft... You can quit that bit right there. PC is competitive as hell, the player population is low more than anything else because pubstar scrubcorps try it and get utterly squashed by actual true protos and then are scared of actually ever competing. This is not a statement against a reintroduction of Corp Battles in some form, but the crap about PC not being competitive and just being an isk farm is bs, as anyone who actually competes knows. Yeah, there's bs corps set up as and for constant farms but thats not PC. Thats farming. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 538	Posted - 2014.11.22 04:01:00 - [97] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Oh, and John? If you don't feel that responding to me is in your best interest I'm ok with that. I'll continue pointing out where you're illogical or incorrect and you can sit mute with nothing to say just like anyone else who's entirely bloated on their own opinion and has the flaws in it made readily apparent for anyone else who comes along to see. If, that's how you want to be. Well, considering that, instead of an actual proposal for EQ spam, you repeated the same off-topic ideas I predicted you would, I think I'm good. It's too bad you wouldn't rather take this idea and improve upon it with ones that actually have some merit in exploring, like the reviving EQ with reptools concept. Instead you dismiss it out of hand, propose fixes to unrelated things, or perseverate on solutions that are not workable. Speaking of which, if you'd like to sit there with your fingers in your ears yelling "lalalala I can't hear you" until CCP Glinda finally admits that, yes Dorothy, we had the power all along, we just didn't want to make the three mouse clicks necessary to enact the installation radius thing, we were just trolling... you go ahead and do that. I'm moving on to find something we can fix. Actually there're several on-topics there and all are relevent in fashion or another. I'm not plugging my ears bro, I hear whats coming loud and clear and don't like it, hence my constant drumbeat of "BW will suck". I've stated my why and how and so far I haven't heard much about those from you except variants of, " I like it so you should too". CCP Glinda I'm sure is the same hook that spent weeks saying, "No No Theres no way to create any sort of sliding sensitivity for profile across range" but hell if there ain't a recent thread that says, "Well, actually we can now we just didn't know how before" and explains that it was intentionally kept quiet. There's no place like Logic, There's no place like Logic, There's no place like Logic..... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
korrah silain True Illuminate 10	Posted - 2014.11.22 04:07:00 - [98] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Oh, and John? If you don't feel that responding to me is in your best interest I'm ok with that. I'll continue pointing out where you're illogical or incorrect and you can sit mute with nothing to say just like anyone else who's entirely bloated on their own opinion and has the flaws in it made readily apparent for anyone else who comes along to see. If, that's how you want to be. Well, considering that, instead of an actual proposal for EQ spam, you repeated the same off-topic ideas I predicted you would, I think I'm good. It's too bad you wouldn't rather take this idea and improve upon it with ones that actually have some merit in exploring, like the reviving EQ with reptools concept. Instead you dismiss it out of hand, propose fixes to unrelated things, or perseverate on solutions that are not workable. Speaking of which, if you'd like to sit there with your fingers in your ears yelling "lalalala I can't hear you" until CCP Glinda finally admits that, yes Dorothy, we had the power all along, we just didn't want to make the three mouse clicks necessary to enact the installation radius thing, we were just trolling... you go ahead and do that. I'm moving on to find something we can fix. Actually there're several on-topics there and all are relevent in fashion or another. I'm not plugging my ears bro, I hear whats coming loud and clear and don't like it, hence my constant drumbeat of "BW will suck". I've stated my why and how and so far I haven't heard much about those from you except variants of, " I like it so you should too". CCP Glinda I'm sure is the same hook that spent weeks saying, "No No Theres no way to create any sort of sliding sensitivity for profile across range" but hell if there ain't a recent thread that says, "Well, actually we can now we just didn't know how before" and explains that it was intentionally kept quiet. There's no place like Logic, There's no place like Logic, There's no place like Logic..... You haven't said **** except I don't like it cuz it doesn't let people switch suits. Seriously if its on topic post it here don't expect people to go crawling through a 59 page thread and then saying oh well pfft if you don't know that's your problem. It is your responsibility to present your arguments here if you have them otherwise you are doing just as jhon says you are.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 538	Posted - 2014.11.22 06:06:00 - [99] - Quote korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Oh, and John? If you don't feel that responding to me is in your best interest I'm ok with that. I'll continue pointing out where you're illogical or incorrect and you can sit mute with nothing to say just like anyone else who's entirely bloated on their own opinion and has the flaws in it made readily apparent for anyone else who comes along to see. If, that's how you want to be. Well, considering that, instead of an actual proposal for EQ spam, you repeated the same off-topic ideas I predicted you would, I think I'm good. It's too bad you wouldn't rather take this idea and improve upon it with ones that actually have some merit in exploring, like the reviving EQ with reptools concept. Instead you dismiss it out of hand, propose fixes to unrelated things, or perseverate on solutions that are not workable. Speaking of which, if you'd like to sit there with your fingers in your ears yelling "lalalala I can't hear you" until CCP Glinda finally admits that, yes Dorothy, we had the power all along, we just didn't want to make the three mouse clicks necessary to enact the installation radius thing, we were just trolling... you go ahead and do that. I'm moving on to find something we can fix. Actually there're several on-topics there and all are relevent in fashion or another. I'm not plugging my ears bro, I hear whats coming loud and clear and don't like it, hence my constant drumbeat of "BW will suck". I've stated my why and how and so far I haven't heard much about those from you except variants of, " I like it so you should too". CCP Glinda I'm sure is the same hook that spent weeks saying, "No No Theres no way to create any sort of sliding sensitivity for profile across range" but hell if there ain't a recent thread that says, "Well, actually we can now we just didn't know how before" and explains that it was intentionally kept quiet. There's no place like Logic, There's no place like Logic, There's no place like Logic..... You haven't said **** except I don't like it cuz it doesn't let people switch suits. Seriously if its on topic post it here don't expect people to go crawling through a 59 page thread and then saying oh well pfft if you don't know that's your problem. It is your responsibility to present your arguments here if you have them otherwise you are doing just as jhon says you are. Ohhh dude, I'm so sorry. First and foremost^ I'm not ignoring you (or anyone else), I've been at work this entire time doing work, then reading what I can and posting where I can, and am right now literally in the car to go home doing this since I've realized I never responded to you. Don't mistake the "banter" between John and I, its actually been going for quite awhile here and there. That thread I referred you to has some of it. Second, this isn't actually the thread for my explaining my self, it's Apoth's for him to explain his self and his classic Apoth TMZ title. John and I have been going back and forth in here and other threads, mostly on the BW topic. That being said, hopefully he doesn't mind if I do threadjack a little bit for a minute. The thread for BW feedback we know where it is and my feedback is there too. In response to your points tho: 1. No, of course I do not think only Logis should be discussing the issue of equipment spam. It's everyones problem, and the solutions to it should really work for everyone. I did ask that you read the Logi/Support thread, which if you do you'll see that I am a minority voice in there that it too is not Logi exclusive, so that it could put some context to my BW comments which you labeled as, "frivolous" rather out of hand. 2. Equipment spam needs a solution, yes, however that certain types of Logistical play should be the sacrificial payment for that solution is something I don't agree with. It isn't just a matter of switching suits. SPAM is the problem, not switching suits, SPAM should be what gets eliminated, NOT switching suits. There are other ideas for doing this in these very forums (hell I listed a bunch for John earlier) that wouldn't cost gameplay outside of eliminating perpetual damn SPAM! I DO NOT buy this brand of thinking that says, Well it nerfs everyone but nerfs me the least so its a great idea. Thats not ke, thats not who I am, not where I'm from. I BELIEVE Rattati and CCP can find another way unless they think that everyone is okay with THIS way. I am NOT okay with this way, and I am NOT alone. 3. About frivolity. Frivolity is a matter of perspective. You said you're a scout and would love to have your ewar when cloaked back and an extension on the decloaking animation. I, personally, consider the decloaking animation frivolous because I don't give two ***** about cloaks. Cloaks are fun, cloaks are cool, I am NOT skurred about fighting cloaked enemies. That's my perspective and why, on a topic you probably don't consider frivolous at all especially since in recent weeks you've borne the brunt of adjustments to it because of people QQing about it. Perspective is why I referred you to the Logi/Support thread, so you could read for yourself whats been going on now about reworking Logis for weeks and get some perspective as to where my utter disdain for BW is coming from, since its coming at tye same time as a whole bunch of other ideas very few of which I see as being beneficial enough for Logistics play! 4. I will add a 4th too, about Logistics play. There is a rampant school of thought that Logis belong anchored to heavies keeping beams on them, feeding them ammo and when they die, if they ask, reviving them. I do not attend this school. I am very effective at its techniques, top-caliber PC proven against PC teams NO ONE wanted to challenge, but do not come from that school. Limits? damn, ok page 2 inbound... Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 538	Posted - 2014.11.22 06:32:00 - [100] - Quote ok, 4 cont. I am an understudy of Sun Tzu's School of Upholstery. Specifically a student and practitioner of "Holding Down the Pillow". Here, in DUST, that means that while yes, I am absolutley committed to supporting my corpmate fatties and everyone else in my squad and team, I also am constantly engaged in Logistically ensuring that squad and team can keep control of the areas we want. Sometimes that does mean leaving my heavies with some hives to keep them warm, and trotting off to plant a minefield so tanks don't just barrell right in on us or another squad, setting a link/hive set for another group to spawn etc. This sort of thing is Team Support facilitated by Map Control through Tactical Combat Logistics work . It isn't easy, or a huge WP farm which is why not too many people do it. And the particulars of it change every match, depending on what sorts of opposition we face. And as the enemies adapt to overcome, I adapt to overcome. This methodology is why I am one of the few people rarely trapped behind a redline, and when the random skirm I'm in has my blueberries trapped I can get them out (sometimes. It is warfare after all, and there's little accounting for classic lack of wherewithal, mine or the blues) This methodology, while as adaptable as I am and am willing to be, will be seriously negatively impacted by BW limitations. That seriously negatively impacts what drew me HARD to this game in the first place, the Field Strategy aspect and the available tools to execute. I'm all for limiting SPAM, I hate to limit playstyle too, yes, admittedly, especially, part of mine . And before you rant at me a tirade of accusations that I hate scouts, I DON'T. I HATE the imbalanced nature of some of your base stats and that any idea to compensate is the end of the world for scouting, just like I hate that any "buff" to logis will suddenly spawn slayerlogis everywhere. BW, btw, IMO WILL bring back slayerlogi gameplay, since once those deployables are out, to preserve their effects, MANY members of my class will be donning their Tank Gank n Speed fits, Damage Mods piled, and start ripping through the unaware. We've been combat gimped for a long time and actively playing nice. When theres nothing left to do but gun though, they'll be out and they'll be blazing. okay, I'm done, again I apologise for not responding earlier. Don't take it personally. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

korrah silain True Illuminate 11	Posted - 2014.11.22 06:37:00 - [101] - Quote Just real quick the scout thing while true I am a scout sometimes, I give few fucks about the cloak, I mainly use them for speed and ability to reposition in a fight the comment was sarcastic and rehtorical . And I don't take things personally it just seemed like all of your statements and arguments were lacking substance (again not going to trawll through59 pages of internet forums on game opinion...that way madness lies and I'm already quite mad tyvm) so in seeing your banter of self assuredness and assuming it was leveled at the entire idea of the discussion at hand reacted in a way that is shall we say beneath me. There now that we are on the same page I'll go back and read your number 4 OK now that civility has been restored, assuming you haven't mentioned alternatives here in this thread, for those of us unwilling to crack open a text book what would you suggest? (Besides limiting them away from depots, as I really doubt that would affect much at least alone)
bwd23 S.A.L.U.K.I. Capital Punishment. 0	Posted - 2014.11.22 11:35:00 - [102] - Quote repost from Rats thread, We all know something needs to be done about spam, however the BW idea is bad. Lets say as a logi I drop triage hives, uplinks, and PEs all in perfect spots. In the new meta when I die I can help the team much more by being afk in the redline than going to another role and having all that work disappear. The BW idea encourages afking. Now to my idea. have a 40 meter "red zone" around supply depots where equipment may not be dropped. I am positive this will get rid of nearly 90% of spam. Simple and effective!
korrah silain True Illuminate 11	Posted - 2014.11.22 11:49:00 - [103] - Quote bwd23 wrote: repost from Rats thread, We all know something needs to be done about spam, however the BW idea is bad. Lets say as a logi I drop triage hives, uplinks, and PEs all in perfect spots. In the new meta when I die I can help the team much more by being afk in the redline than going to another role and having all that work disappear. The BW idea encourages afking. Now to my idea. have a 40 meter "red zone" around supply depots where equipment may not be dropped. I am positive this will get rid of nearly 90% of spam. Simple and effective! I don't see it as promoting asking anymore than the current game does, in fact the suit switching is a big problem that feeds another problem(all the damn people dropping eq then switching to sentinals and murderstomping) so in that respect if you don't want to run in the logi suit then I would rather have you afk your ass at the red line than farm points by having all that eq while you play girilla sentinal. That being said 40 meters is a REALLY large area, and this could end up needing logis even harder on some maps. Simply put suit switching and being able to continually capitalize on eq is a big problem, and I suppose to reiterate and summarize the only way to stop it is to A) somehow link eq to the suit deployed so that switching destroys or disables the placed equipment B) somehow limit the amount of equipment certain suits can have out. B feels less limiting and is where the be system is comingfrom. If there is a third option to cure "tourist logis" then please by all means share, but to my mind this "play style" is what the bw system is meant to address Now to address your theory about the new meta: yes you could do nothing(taking at the redline) or you could continue to help your team by fighting/repping/reviving/redeploying burnt out eq. Hell if you are that afraid of dying after placing your eq you could just pick up a sniper rifle...
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 343	Posted - 2014.11.22 11:58:00 - [104] - Quote BTW, what's a tourist logi? Is it the same as a tourist scout, who was always running assault and now switches to scout when the enemy uses this fit? Or is it the same as a tourist heavy, who is also an assault, that get's his arse handed over to him by Sents and then thinks oh lets switch to a heavy frame...? This is just a rediculous discussion, that will NOT SOLVE THE SPAMMING PROBLEM WHATSOEVER! If you deny one role the strategic possibility of switching to another role, than its NOT BALANCED. If Logis loose deployed stuff when switching suits, NO OTHER SUIT SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO USE CERTAIN EQUIPMENT PERIOD! Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
bwd23 S.A.L.U.K.I. Capital Punishment. 0	Posted - 2014.11.22 12:39:00 - [105] - Quote I do have an even easier solution which was my second choice. It even fixes two big problems at once, and yet again, simple. If you switch suits at supply you lose the suit. It does not count as a death, yet you lose one of that suit. It would make spamming or switching to refill HP very expensive quickly.
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4681	Posted - 2014.11.22 12:46:00 - [106] - Quote . bwd23 wrote: I do have an even easier solution which was my second choice. It even fixes two big problems at once, and yet again, simple. If you switch suits at supply you lose the suit. It does not count as a death, yet you lose one of that suit. It would make spamming or switching to refill HP very expensive quickly. Yeah, even if you could do the radius thing, 40m is a ginormous area, on some maps it would make certain points very hard to defend. Your second idea I don't see as an improvement, certainly not from the logi side. Most complaints come from logis who want the option to switch to other suits if needed, This would come down even harder on them, not to mention the hammer on new players it represents. (The godfather of tactical logistics)
I-Shayz-I I----------I 5146	Posted - 2014.11.22 14:41:00 - [107] - Quote Better idea: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=181929&find=unread 7162 wp with a Repair Tool!
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2079	Posted - 2014.11.22 14:45:00 - [108] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Better idea: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=181929&find=unread i already looked over it and im against having tiny number of spawns per uplink its counter productive for having uplinks in tactical locations #[[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]]
korrah silain True Illuminate 11	Posted - 2014.11.22 20:40:00 - [109] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: BTW, what's a tourist logi? Is it the same as a tourist scout, who was always running assault and now switches to scout when the enemy uses this fit? Or is it the same as a tourist heavy, who is also an assault, that get's his arse handed over to him by Sents and then thinks oh lets switch to a heavy frame...? This is just a rediculous discussion, that will NOT SOLVE THE SPAMMING PROBLEM WHATSOEVER! If you deny one role the strategic possibility of switching to another role, than its NOT BALANCED. If Logis loose deployed stuff when switching suits, NO OTHER SUIT SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO USE CERTAIN EQUIPMENT PERIOD! Tourist logi: logi spawns in, drops eq spam, switches to sentinal at depot, plays sentinal while cashing in wp for eqs.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 543	Posted - 2014.11.22 22:50:00 - [110] - Quote korrah silain wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: BTW, what's a tourist logi? Is it the same as a tourist scout, who was always running assault and now switches to scout when the enemy uses this fit? Or is it the same as a tourist heavy, who is also an assault, that get's his arse handed over to him by Sents and then thinks oh lets switch to a heavy frame...? This is just a rediculous discussion, that will NOT SOLVE THE SPAMMING PROBLEM WHATSOEVER! If you deny one role the strategic possibility of switching to another role, than its NOT BALANCED. If Logis loose deployed stuff when switching suits, NO OTHER SUIT SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO USE CERTAIN EQUIPMENT PERIOD! Tourist logi: logi spawns in, drops eq spam, switches to sentinal at depot, plays sentinal while cashing in wp for eqs If you start arbitrarily limiting eq to suits we may as well be playing a crappy version of battlefield. BW kicks in, tactically map-wise we will be playing BF. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.



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