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korrah silain True Illuminate 1	Posted - 2014.11.19 06:01:00 - [1] - Quote Quick idea just to toss out, but if the goal is to stop logis deploying passive support items and then swapping suits why not make the equipment pop if they spawn in in a suit that doesn't have a copy of the equipment? Then maybe find a way to limit the amount deployable per suit, maybe according to the highest "level" (not meta level, but standard/militia get one copy, adv gets 2 proto gets 3) So for example a suit decides to equip an advanced uplink and a militia uplink would still be limited to two deployable at a time due to adv being his highest level, make the same rules with the hives, maybe allow double the number for Rex's... Heck maybe you could switch the caldari and amarr bonus to possibly add a flat 1 activatable bonus at levels 1, 3, and 5 as well as the existing bonuses to further inscentivise their use... Sorry if any of this is a retread...
korrah silain True Illuminate 1	Posted - 2014.11.19 09:47:00 - [2] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: korrah silain wrote: Quick idea just to toss out, but if the goal is to stop logis deploying passive support items and then swapping suits why not make the equipment pop if they spawn in in a suit that doesn't have a copy of the equipment? Then maybe find a way to limit the amount deployable per suit, maybe according to the highest "level" (not meta level, but standard/militia get one copy, adv gets 2 proto gets 3) So for example a suit decides to equip an advanced uplink and a militia uplink would still be limited to two deployable at a time due to adv being his highest level, make the same rules with the hives, maybe allow double the number for Rex's... Heck maybe you could switch the caldari and amarr bonus to possibly add a flat 1 activatable bonus at levels 1, 3, and 5 as well as the existing bonuses to further inscentivise their use... Sorry if any of this is a retread... well the problem isnt "logi" as such its People who arnt logi main useing logi suit to slap down dozens of uplinks and hives around suply depos and such... myself as a logi i run as a legit logi just useing the hive/uplinks on the suit i choose to deploy as.. and sometimes i have to flip to an AV suit and back again to a logi suit.. if we took your idea it would basically kill the logi role as once a logi does a quick flip to be versatile and drive off a threat (which alot of bitter vets used to tell newer players to do, god damned hypocrites) mostlikly our uplinks would pop meaning all dead soldiers end up back at the MCC if its a hard match.. and being a hard match that would mean a complete loss off the flow of the battle and mean a 100% loss chance and battles would become stale and boring because there would be next to no active uplinks near the spawn point(s) to actually get any fights.. this would kill FW, kill PC, kill dom and skirm.. and only ambush would be left as a viable game mode with SOME action it amazes me as to how narrow and short sighted alot of the playerbase is.. they have almost no idea WTF logi do while slayers slay and vehicles just run away from swarms and scouts with RE's... logi ARE the battle.. with out a logi there is no battle only getting redlined or CRU camped... logi are the second least used suit in the game with commando as the most least used.. if these equipment changes that other people or even rattatti have suggested come into game.. no one will want to play logi after the initial "oooh shiney" wares off.. not even myself.. and i main logi and alt logi on 3 other alts 1 of each race where as main covers all 4 logi.. so i have more then enough experance to know exactly what im saying, what shouldnt change and what will happen if the proposed changes of rattatti and other people happen.. atleast my suggestion is a simple one cutting down on spam while still letting people deploy and switch as desired/needed.. if all team members were to deploy max deployables (190ish currently which would not happen ever its just maybe 2 to 4 WP hungry A holes who ruin it) it would start to cause lag where as my proposal imposes some form of limit which is not restrictive.. but i am also thinking about what the new proposed solo orbitals will do for/to deployable equipment.. we cannot hide uplinks under buildings cause orbitals penetrate everything.. and im only saying uplinks because no one will think of a hive in the middle of nowhere as useful.. F it im going to bed.. there has been far too much stupidity and bitter-vet hypocrisy tonight in this thread. I appreciate your feedback, however seeing as logos have weapons to fight infantry and only the sentinle has no equipment slots what it would actually force you to do is to fit your av fits with your prioritized deployable as their equipment(your things only pop if you are over the limit you get from equipping them) For example you are a proto amarr logi and have 3 uplinks out, and having only skilled nanohives to adv you only have two of those out. you need to drive off a dropship, so you switch to a premade av fram the uplinks would only pop if you had either and advanced or lower uplink, or no uplink in the equipment slot. In the case of only an adv or std or militia uplink fitted their you would lose only 1(adv) or two(std/mlt) as well as your hives. Once you switch back you can redeploy hives. If you are complaining about not being able to drive off infantry, well my understanding is that the logos gave up fire power for support. The numbers I gave out were purely hypothetical of course I haven't done math this is all off the cuff, but please don't misunderstand I'm not trying to belittle the logos or anything, or Nerf them, this simply seems like a simpler path to fixing the problem than the band with system.
korrah silain True Illuminate 3	Posted - 2014.11.19 18:15:00 - [3] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: . logi, second lowest ehp of all the suits.. end up being much slower to compensate for the ehp gap.. all logi (excluding amarr) only have 1 light weapon slot for what ever weapon they choose.. most all logi cannot fit a mostly proto tank AND proto equipment and proto weapon.. seriously give it a shot on protofits with all L5 skills its impossable.. and thats even on a min logi with just a CR i still have to fit advanced shields and advanced hive to manage to squeese in proto needle proto rep and proto uplink.. as for armor it has to use reactive because of the lower requirments. [/quote] Then perhaps a general buff to the logo speed and ehp is necessary along side the implementation of this system to find a balance, not my decision I am simply trying to advocate for this simplified solution over the bandwidth idea.
korrah silain True Illuminate 6	Posted - 2014.11.21 09:09:00 - [4] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Ku Shala wrote: this will just leave pubs without uplinks and hives more equipment less usage is the solution example: 20 uplinks can be carried that allow 3 spawns only, same restrictions we currently have Or just put a restriction on the amount of uplinks you can have out. Lump uplinks as one thing, not seperated as they are. As it is now I can have 7 links out using different versions of uplinks. The way I suggest is once you have 3 of one type (or mixed) you can lay no more out. Are you going to pay for my respec if that happens so I can get out of the Amarr logi suit? 1) as is stated below amarr and caldari logis are more about the quality of their uplinks/hives getting a boost rather than tan being able to put out more of them 2) if you went back and read my suggestion you would see that I suggested as a possibility those suits getting an extra uplink or hive at levels 1,3, and 5 on the skill chart 3) no one owes you **** if you get needed and then decide its not worth it to run what you used to run. I used to run cloak scouts but with the new wear Nerf decided to respect into commandos and assaults. I did so gracefully without demanding that half the forum (who were rightfully crying for an admittedly still needed scout Nerf) pay for my respect. Equipment spam is ruining the game on multiple fronts, and it at least in some regards is due to logis ergo logis need to be fixed. Besides LOGIS DONT INHERRENTLY GET A BONUS TO THE AMMOUNT THEY DEPLOY RIGHT NOW, do why exactly is decreasing the ludicrously high limit attained by gaming the system screwing logis over? You can still deploy 1-3 uplinks now we just track all uplinks as uplinks. As an aside in regards to the "but then I can't flip to av" argument: so? Av is a slayer role, not really something logis should be doing anyway(Rex's notwithstanding), if anything it should be given to the assaults and commandos, besides with the new swarm launcher a starterfit is effective av. Sounds like you need to get your lazy team mates to chase away the drop ships and tanks. That being said I do believe I heard elsewhere on this forum that the logis may at least be getting a speed buff.
korrah silain True Illuminate 7	Posted - 2014.11.21 19:27:00 - [5] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it by applying further restrictions with no counterbalance to emphasize the role. Unfortunately the system you propose is not fair any more than proposing all suits get a heavy weapon slot would be fair, each role is a specialization and needs to possess advantages accordingly. The BW system does this, whereas the OP does not. 0.02 ISK Cross Hey Cross, what I don't get about the you guys trying to reinvent the logi, is the fact that you seem to have the opinion that everybody should play the same role for the whole match... That is completely opposite of why many play this game. If you destroy all my deployed equipment when I say change into an AV suit, than you punish my efforts from the start or mid of the game. I try to support my team. Many times I'm the only uplinker in the game. But putting down uplinks is not something I want to do for the whole match (though I regularly do it several times a game). I also want to fight AV and do other stuff (terminating clones). So why is it, that you guys think equipment spam Is a good enough reason to implement those changes. If it wasn't for my effort, in many pubs I'd be running the whole way from base to the fight on every spawn. And you know what, in my experience some of the worst spammers, are dedicated logis. These changes won't change a lot regarding spam. And by the way, if all the logis equipment is destroyed, why not make every player just glue to his starting role? Why are you suffering under the delusion that the suggestion will destroy ALL uplinks in case of switch? The proposed bw system would allow all deployed uplinks that fit within the band with limits out. The only suit that has zero be is a dentinal, ergo as long as you aren't switching to a sentinal you will keep some uplinks. This effectively functions as a boost to the logistics suit and encourages its use. If you are simply placing uplinks and switching you are part of the problem. As far as equipment spam being a problem it is. It lags the game, discourages actual strategy and encourages an overuse of sentinals with hmgs by allowing people to freely switch and farm wps while being nigh unkillable. If you do not understand this then I am sorry.
korrah silain True Illuminate 7	Posted - 2014.11.21 19:59:00 - [6] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it by applying further restrictions with no counterbalance to emphasize the role. Unfortunately the system you propose is not fair any more than proposing all suits get a heavy weapon slot would be fair, each role is a specialization and needs to possess advantages accordingly. The BW system does this, whereas the OP does not. 0.02 ISK Cross Hey Cross, what I don't get about the you guys trying to reinvent the logi, is the fact that you seem to have the opinion that everybody should play the same role for the whole match... That is completely opposite of why many play this game. If you destroy all my deployed equipment when I say change into an AV suit, than you punish my efforts from the start or mid of the game. I try to support my team. Many times I'm the only uplinker in the game. But putting down uplinks is not something I want to do for the whole match (though I regularly do it several times a game). I also want to fight AV and do other stuff (terminating clones). So why is it, that you guys think equipment spam Is a good enough reason to implement those changes. If it wasn't for my effort, in many pubs I'd be running the whole way from base to the fight on every spawn. And you know what, in my experience some of the worst spammers, are dedicated logis. These changes won't change a lot regarding spam. And by the way, if all the logis equipment is destroyed, why not make every player just glue to his starting role? Why are you suffering under the delusion that the suggestion will destroy ALL uplinks in case of switch? The proposed bw system would allow all deployed uplinks that fit within the band with limits out. The only suit that has zero be is a dentinal, ergo as long as you aren't switching to a sentinal you will keep some uplinks. This effectively functions as a boost to the logistics suit and encourages its use. If you are simply placing uplinks and switching you are part of the problem. As far as equipment spam being a problem it is. It lags the game, discourages actual strategy and encourages an overuse of sentinals with hmgs by allowing people to freely switch and farm wps while being nigh unkillable. If you do not understand this then I am sorry. And how do you miss that there are other options for addressing the equipment spam issues that don't infringe on the players' ability to choose? The choice limitation is primarily a nerf for Logis, since when a heavy switches to scout all the work he did as a heavy he keeps! All frames except Logis will be this way, whereas on the inverse if you do Logistical work and for w/e reason have to switch you LOSE the work you performed! And thats just suit switching between classes, the problem STILL exists switching INSIDE the class ie If I run my Amarr Logi and lay links I'm not going to be able to run my CalLogi and also lay hives! Or If I run my Amarr AV minefield builder I'm not going to be able to then trun around and lay links! And so you know, I'm not talking about spamming out 100 links or hives, just usable quantities to establish and retain Field Control. You know, Combat Logistics? BW limits will force most all gameplay into BlobWork, which I guess is the norm in EVE but really will make DUST boring as hell, since it ISN'T a naval warfare simulator, its a ground combat simulator and while they have similarities they do have inherent differences. Other options are available to address the problems which DON'T saddle the Logistics class player with this negative. A heavys kills stay dead for the entire battle? How have I been respawning? If you want to kill as a logo then use the gun you get. As far as keeping things managable you will still keep uplinks when you switch, Only some are destroyed as according to your new suit. You want to kill stuff in a suit not limited like the logi then fine but you don't keep the bonuses.
korrah silain True Illuminate 8	Posted - 2014.11.21 20:56:00 - [7] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it b A heavys kills stay dead for the entire battle? How have I been respawning? If you want to kill as a logo then use the gun you get. As far as keeping things managable you will still keep uplinks when you switch, Only some are destroyed as according to your new suit. You want to kill stuff in a suit not limited like the logi then fine but you don't keep the bonuses.[/quote] Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. [/quote] Your entire complaint against this is "but then I lose ALL MY UPLINKS when I switch suits to kill!!! This is dumb because: A) logis switching is the entire problem. B)this effects other suit not the logi suits (as much) because the logis have the bw to have multiple uplinks. Want to farm was/support your team then wear the suit that was intended for it. You can still kill because you have a weapon, want an av fit? Fit a swarmed onto the same suit as a variant then jump back when your mission is accomplished. Same be in same suit no problem there. As for the immortal clone sole comment that was in response to the accusation that heavies don't lose their accomplishments when they spawn, well no but they do lose their only accomplishment (killing) when their victems respawn. It really sounds like you are crying that this "Nerf" to the logis is forcing you to play a logi instead of switching.
korrah silain True Illuminate 8	Posted - 2014.11.21 21:59:00 - [8] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it b A heavys kills stay dead for the entire battle? How have I been respawning? If you want to kill as a logo then use the gun you get. As far as keeping things managable you will still keep uplinks when you switch, Only some are destroyed as according to your new suit. You want to kill stuff in a suit not limited like the logi then fine but you don't keep the bonuses. Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. Your entire complaint against this is "but then I lose ALL MY UPLINKS when I switch suits to kill!!! This is dumb because: A) logis switching is the entire problem. B)this effects other suit not the logi suits (as much) because the logis have the bw to have multiple uplinks. Want to farm was/support your team then wear the suit that was intended for it. You can still kill because you have a weapon, want an av fit? Fit a swarmed onto the same suit as a variant then jump back when your mission is accomplished. Same be in same suit no problem there. As for the immortal clone sole comment that was in response to the accusation that heavies don't lose their accomplishments when they spawn, well no but they do lose their only accomplishment (killing) when their victems respawn. It really sounds like you are crying that this "Nerf" to the logis is forcing you to play a logi instead of switching. Edit: Logos "brah" do you even critical think? (Logos is not a typo of logis it is Latin for logic, one of the three cornerstones of traditional debate the other being ethos: ethical arguments, and pathos, appeals to emotion)[/quote] So lets keep things Logocal and not lose sight of the problem. Equipment spam is the problem, particularly around Supply Depots. Not suit switching. Suit switching YES is HOW many spammers ply their trade HOWEVER is not the actual problem, the SPAM is. So address the SPAM and don't f with the switching! Logo enough for you? As far as my Logi play goes, I am full Logi, through and through. Invested, committed, active at the highest levels of gameplay available. And I guess its these highest levels that very few others participate in that will be hurt that others don't understand because we ALL hate the spam but only a few of us can see there are ways to address it that don't as a peripheral consequence screw other gameplay. If not, allow me to deposit a nice RL parrallel: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. [/quote] Um except the bandwidth limit does combat spammers because it ALSO limits the amount of equipment out period. So not only does the solution come down hard on the suit switchers, it also comes down on spammers while still giving the logis breathing room. Where is the problem? You have yet to show (besides eliminating suit switching tourist logis) how this needs dedicated logis...so no...not logo enough.
korrah silain True Illuminate 9	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:18:00 - [9] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it b A heavys kills stay dead for the entire battle? How have I been respawning? If you want to kill as a logo then use the gun you get. As far as keeping things managable you will still keep uplinks when you switch, Only some are destroyed as according to your new suit. You want to kill stuff in a suit not limited like the logi then fine but you don't keep the bonuses. Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. Your entire complaint against this is "but then I lose ALL MY UPLINKS when I switch suits to kill!!! This is dumb because: A) logis switching is the entire problem. B)this effects other suit not the logi suits (as much) because the logis have the bw to have multiple uplinks. Want to farm was/support your team then wear the suit that was intended for it. You can still kill because you have a weapon, want an av fit? Fit a swarmed onto the same suit as a variant then jump back when your mission is accomplished. Same be in same suit no problem there. As for the immortal clone sole comment that was in response to the accusation that heavies don't lose their accomplishments when they spawn, well no but they do lose their only accomplishment (killing) when their victems respawn. It really sounds like you are crying that this "Nerf" to the logis is forcing you to play a logi instead of switching. Edit: Logos "brah" do you even critical think? (Logos is not a typo of logis it is Latin for logic, one of the three cornerstones of traditional debate the other being ethos: ethical arguments, and pathos, appeals to emotion) So lets keep things Logocal and not lose sight of the problem. Equipment spam is the problem, particularly around Supply Depots. Not suit switching. Suit switching YES is HOW many spammers ply their trade HOWEVER is not the actual problem, the SPAM is. So address the SPAM and don't f with the switching! Logo enough for you? As far as my Logi play goes, I am full Logi, through and through. Invested, committed, active at the highest levels of gameplay available. And I guess its these highest levels that very few others participate in that will be hurt that others don't understand because we ALL hate the spam but only a few of us can see there are ways to address it that don't as a peripheral consequence screw other gameplay. If not, allow me to deposit a nice RL parrallel: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Um except the bandwidth limit does combat spammers because it ALSO limits the amount of equipment out period. So not only does the solution come down hard on the suit switchers, it also comes down on spammers while still giving the logis breathing room. Where is the problem? You have yet to show (besides eliminating suit switching tourist logis) how this needs dedicated logis...so no...not logo enough.[/quote] Because the Logistics gameplay being preserved is blobbing, but the gameplay being sacrificed is actual Combat Logistics. Instead of just solving the SPAM. BW will reduce some forms of spam, agreed, but not all. It will ,however, however eliminate all Logistical gameplay outside of BLOBS. Again, these results, spam elimination, could be achieved WITHOUT reducing all Logistics utility to simply serving the blob. And you can keep trying to frame me as a "tourist" but if you go read the Logistics Support thread all the way through and pay attention to my input there you'll see clearly I am anything but. [/quote] How is this solution eliminating logistic and strategic placement? If anything it should encourage it considering your limited resources need to be use more effectively. I have seen matches where as few as 4 uplinks were deployed and allowed the team full effective tactical movement? And if you have another idea in another thread then post a link. As it stands here I am arguing for band width because it seems all the complaints I hear are incorrect, lacking evidence, or frivolous. (And I still see no evidence for your arguments...perhaps examples would help?)
korrah silain True Illuminate 9	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:36:00 - [10] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: korrah silain wrote: How is this solution eliminating logistic and strategic placement? If anything it should encourage it considering your limited resources need to be use more effectively. I have seen matches where as few as 4 uplinks were deployed and allowed the team full effective tactical movement? And if you have another idea in another thread then post a link. As it stands here I am arguing for band width because it seems all the complaints I hear are incorrect, lacking evidence, or frivolous. (And I still see no evidence for your arguments...perhaps examples would help?) a simple idea could be dont allow equipment that is uplink/hive/triage-hive to be placed with in 10 to 15 m of a silo.. this may stop a little of the spam. but even so on that one map with the underground silo i find a Leeroy scout with flux nades clears it all up nice and quick and get a chunk of WP too.. when we get Solo and team EMP orbitals this will make it even easier.. Yeah its not just around silos that there is a problem. It is all over.

korrah silain True Illuminate 9	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:40:00 - [11] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I remember this thread and the irony in your reposting seems lost on you considering it's basically 18 pages of defense of Logistics playstyle that will be eliminated with BW imposition as proposed. BW imposition that, largely, is agreed upon as not really eliminating the spam issue it's meant to address. Ever heard the phrase, "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"? You're giving up a bird in our hand for nothing in a bush. Thats a nerf . EDIT: Oh, and handing over Athena Sentinel the victory s/he was looking for in posting that thread. So, one, how is that "largely" agreed upon, exactly? By whom.. You and the OP? As for that fool Athena, what victory? Never got what she wanted, and still won't. I can still swap at a supply depot to switch from an uplink suit to a medic suit, or even a nanohive suit, provided I don't need (not want) more than 8 pieces of EQ out, which I rarely do. This is basically the last time I'm going to respond to one of your posts on the subject of BW because it's simply not getting anywhere. Amarrian God as my witness, I honestly don't think you have the slightest clue how this system really works and what it's intended to do. I am not trolling in any way when I say that. Your comments about this being a buff to scouts somehow, for example, simply defy logic. Bandwith is not a fcking buff to scouts, that makes exactly zero sense. It's not a major buff to logis either, but, stay with me here, thats not the purpose of it. The purpose is to limit EQ spam as much as possible while limiting the impact on dedicated logis as much as possible.* To put it another way, BANDWITH NERFS EVERYONE'S ABILITY TO DROP EQUIPMENT. IT NERFS LOGIS SUBSTANTIALLY LESS. WE ARE NOT TRYING TO TOTALLY FIX LOGIS HERE WITH THIS ONE THING AND STOP THERE. The major buffs to logis are still needed, still on the table, and are not directly related to this in any way. Tell you what, give me a better proposal. Come up with an actual proposal specifically designed to reduce spam.: - Not some nebulous combination of things we've been talking about in Cross' thread. - Not buffing logis in a way unrelated to equipment. Focus! - Not nerfing scouts in a way unrelated to equipment (your scout rage is clouding your judgement, tbh) - Not solo orbitals - Not the radius thing which, yes, is a great idea, which is why I've suggested it 83 times, but you can claim to be whatever amazing coding guru you want, if the developers of the damn game specifically say they can't do it, I'm gonna drop it and move on to something that can actually be done.\ - Not some pie in the sky idea that's not practical - and for the love of God not a blanket restriction of x number of peices of equipment on everyone. Anyone who thinks that's a better solution from the logi perspective should be immediately sterilized as for the good of the human race they should not be allowed to pass on their DNA. Do not mention any of those things, give me a better way to do it that's feasible, will, work, and have much less effect on people in logi suits than everyone else. Do that and I'll stop supporting BW and promote yours. Well earlier I had suggested that we limit equipments deployable byhighest level equipped (proto giving 3 uplinks, adv2, and std/mlta 1...)
korrah silain True Illuminate 9	Posted - 2014.11.21 23:23:00 - [12] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. Your entire complaint against this is "but then I lose ALL MY UPLINKS when I switch suits to kill!!! This is dumb because: A) logis switching is the entire problem. B)this effects other suit not the logi suits (as much) because the logis have the bw to have multiple uplinks. Want to farm was/support your team then wear the suit that was intended for it. You can still kill because you have a weapon, want an av fit? Fit a swarmed onto the same suit as a variant then jump back when your mission is accomplished. Same be in same suit no problem there. As for the immortal clone sole comment that was in response to the accusation that heavies don't lose their accomplishments when they spawn, well no but they do lose their only accomplishment (killing) when their victems respawn. It really sounds like you are crying that this "Nerf" to the logis is forcing you to play a logi instead of switching. Edit: Logos "brah" do you even critical think? (Logos is not a typo of logis it is Latin for logic, one of the three cornerstones of traditional debate the other being ethos: ethical arguments, and pathos, appeals to emotion) So lets keep things Logocal and not lose sight of the problem. Equipment spam is the problem, particularly around Supply Depots. Not suit switching. Suit switching YES is HOW many spammers ply their trade HOWEVER is not the actual problem, the SPAM is. So address the SPAM and don't f with the switching! Logo enough for you? As far as my Logi play goes, I am full Logi, through and through. Invested, committed, active at the highest levels of gameplay available. And I guess its these highest levels that very few others participate in that will be hurt that others don't understand because we ALL hate the spam but only a few of us can see there are ways to address it that don't as a peripheral consequence screw other gameplay. If not, allow me to deposit a nice RL parrallel: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Um except the bandwidth limit does combat spammers because it ALSO limits the amount of equipment out period. So not only does the solution come down hard on the suit switchers, it also comes down on spammers while still giving the logis breathing room. Where is the problem? You have yet to show (besides eliminating suit switching tourist logis) how this needs dedicated logis...so no...not logo enough. Because the Logistics gameplay being preserved is blobbing, but the gameplay being sacrificed is actual Combat Logistics. Instead of just solving the SPAM. BW will reduce some forms of spam, agreed, but not all. It will ,however, however eliminate all Logistical gameplay outside of BLOBS. Again, these results, spam elimination, could be achieved WITHOUT reducing all Logistics utility to simply serving the blob. And you can keep trying to frame me as a "tourist" but if you go read the Logistics Support thread all the way through and pay attention to my input there you'll see clearly I am anything but. How is this solution eliminating logistic and strategic placement? If anything it should encourage it considering your limited resources need to be use more effectively. I have seen matches where as few as 4 uplinks were deployed and allowed the team full effective tactical movement? And if you have another idea in another thread then post a link. As it stands here I am arguing for band width because it seems all the complaints I hear are incorrect, lacking evidence, or frivolous. (And I still see no evidence for your arguments...perhaps examples would help?)[/quote] Sorry bud, I'm willing to show you where to look, but I'm not going to do your homework for you. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=171586&find=unread That is the thread. Frankly, if you're not familiar with all the changes going on right now with regards to Logistics as a class and Logistics as gameplay on behalf of the Logistics Community I'd appreciate your not coming partway in on a lengthy conversation (check those dates) and making statements regarding accuracy, evidence or frivolity. Its counter-logocal and counter productive. [/quote] 1) so only logis can talk about how to balance equipment spam issues? Then as a scout can I talk about the cloak field issues? Cuz I'd like the delay gone, and eware back, on and maybe a decloak animation extension... 2) as was stated above, this isn't about fixing logis its about fixing eq spam, and yes its going to affect logis but not nearly as much as everyone else. 3) seeing as logis will still be able to put out more equipment than anyone else I fail to see how saying this isn't hurting the logis but further making them a necessity by cutting down other suits role infringements is frivolous.
korrah silain True Illuminate 10	Posted - 2014.11.22 04:07:00 - [13] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Oh, and John? If you don't feel that responding to me is in your best interest I'm ok with that. I'll continue pointing out where you're illogical or incorrect and you can sit mute with nothing to say just like anyone else who's entirely bloated on their own opinion and has the flaws in it made readily apparent for anyone else who comes along to see. If, that's how you want to be. Well, considering that, instead of an actual proposal for EQ spam, you repeated the same off-topic ideas I predicted you would, I think I'm good. It's too bad you wouldn't rather take this idea and improve upon it with ones that actually have some merit in exploring, like the reviving EQ with reptools concept. Instead you dismiss it out of hand, propose fixes to unrelated things, or perseverate on solutions that are not workable. Speaking of which, if you'd like to sit there with your fingers in your ears yelling "lalalala I can't hear you" until CCP Glinda finally admits that, yes Dorothy, we had the power all along, we just didn't want to make the three mouse clicks necessary to enact the installation radius thing, we were just trolling... you go ahead and do that. I'm moving on to find something we can fix. Actually there're several on-topics there and all are relevent in fashion or another. I'm not plugging my ears bro, I hear whats coming loud and clear and don't like it, hence my constant drumbeat of "BW will suck". I've stated my why and how and so far I haven't heard much about those from you except variants of, " I like it so you should too". CCP Glinda I'm sure is the same hook that spent weeks saying, "No No Theres no way to create any sort of sliding sensitivity for profile across range" but hell if there ain't a recent thread that says, "Well, actually we can now we just didn't know how before" and explains that it was intentionally kept quiet. There's no place like Logic, There's no place like Logic, There's no place like Logic..... You haven't said **** except I don't like it cuz it doesn't let people switch suits. Seriously if its on topic post it here don't expect people to go crawling through a 59 page thread and then saying oh well pfft if you don't know that's your problem. It is your responsibility to present your arguments here if you have them otherwise you are doing just as jhon says you are.
korrah silain True Illuminate 11	Posted - 2014.11.22 06:37:00 - [14] - Quote Just real quick the scout thing while true I am a scout sometimes, I give few fucks about the cloak, I mainly use them for speed and ability to reposition in a fight the comment was sarcastic and rehtorical . And I don't take things personally it just seemed like all of your statements and arguments were lacking substance (again not going to trawll through59 pages of internet forums on game opinion...that way madness lies and I'm already quite mad tyvm) so in seeing your banter of self assuredness and assuming it was leveled at the entire idea of the discussion at hand reacted in a way that is shall we say beneath me. There now that we are on the same page I'll go back and read your number 4 OK now that civility has been restored, assuming you haven't mentioned alternatives here in this thread, for those of us unwilling to crack open a text book what would you suggest? (Besides limiting them away from depots, as I really doubt that would affect much at least alone)
korrah silain True Illuminate 11	Posted - 2014.11.22 11:49:00 - [15] - Quote bwd23 wrote: repost from Rats thread, We all know something needs to be done about spam, however the BW idea is bad. Lets say as a logi I drop triage hives, uplinks, and PEs all in perfect spots. In the new meta when I die I can help the team much more by being afk in the redline than going to another role and having all that work disappear. The BW idea encourages afking. Now to my idea. have a 40 meter "red zone" around supply depots where equipment may not be dropped. I am positive this will get rid of nearly 90% of spam. Simple and effective! I don't see it as promoting asking anymore than the current game does, in fact the suit switching is a big problem that feeds another problem(all the damn people dropping eq then switching to sentinals and murderstomping) so in that respect if you don't want to run in the logi suit then I would rather have you afk your ass at the red line than farm points by having all that eq while you play girilla sentinal. That being said 40 meters is a REALLY large area, and this could end up needing logis even harder on some maps. Simply put suit switching and being able to continually capitalize on eq is a big problem, and I suppose to reiterate and summarize the only way to stop it is to A) somehow link eq to the suit deployed so that switching destroys or disables the placed equipment B) somehow limit the amount of equipment certain suits can have out. B feels less limiting and is where the be system is comingfrom. If there is a third option to cure "tourist logis" then please by all means share, but to my mind this "play style" is what the bw system is meant to address Now to address your theory about the new meta: yes you could do nothing(taking at the redline) or you could continue to help your team by fighting/repping/reviving/redeploying burnt out eq. Hell if you are that afraid of dying after placing your eq you could just pick up a sniper rifle...
korrah silain True Illuminate 11	Posted - 2014.11.22 20:40:00 - [16] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: BTW, what's a tourist logi? Is it the same as a tourist scout, who was always running assault and now switches to scout when the enemy uses this fit? Or is it the same as a tourist heavy, who is also an assault, that get's his arse handed over to him by Sents and then thinks oh lets switch to a heavy frame...? This is just a rediculous discussion, that will NOT SOLVE THE SPAMMING PROBLEM WHATSOEVER! If you deny one role the strategic possibility of switching to another role, than its NOT BALANCED. If Logis loose deployed stuff when switching suits, NO OTHER SUIT SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO USE CERTAIN EQUIPMENT PERIOD! Tourist logi: logi spawns in, drops eq spam, switches to sentinal at depot, plays sentinal while cashing in wp for eqs.

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