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Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 342	Posted - 2014.11.21 18:39:00 - [61] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it by applying further restrictions with no counterbalance to emphasize the role. Unfortunately the system you propose is not fair any more than proposing all suits get a heavy weapon slot would be fair, each role is a specialization and needs to possess advantages accordingly. The BW system does this, whereas the OP does not. 0.02 ISK Cross Hey Cross, what I don't get about the you guys trying to reinvent the logi, is the fact that you seem to have the opinion that everybody should play the same role for the whole match... That is completely opposite of why many play this game. If you destroy all my deployed equipment when I say change into an AV suit, than you punish my efforts from the start or mid of the game. I try to support my team. Many times I'm the only uplinker in the game. But putting down uplinks is not something I want to do for the whole match (though I regularly do it several times a game). I also want to fight AV and do other stuff (terminating clones). So why is it, that you guys think equipment spam Is a good enough reason to implement those changes. If it wasn't for my effort, in many pubs I'd be running the whole way from base to the fight on every spawn. And you know what, in my experience some of the worst spammers, are dedicated logis. These changes won't change a lot regarding spam. And by the way, if all the logis equipment is destroyed, why not make every player just glue to his starting role? Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
korrah silain True Illuminate 7	Posted - 2014.11.21 19:27:00 - [62] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it by applying further restrictions with no counterbalance to emphasize the role. Unfortunately the system you propose is not fair any more than proposing all suits get a heavy weapon slot would be fair, each role is a specialization and needs to possess advantages accordingly. The BW system does this, whereas the OP does not. 0.02 ISK Cross Hey Cross, what I don't get about the you guys trying to reinvent the logi, is the fact that you seem to have the opinion that everybody should play the same role for the whole match... That is completely opposite of why many play this game. If you destroy all my deployed equipment when I say change into an AV suit, than you punish my efforts from the start or mid of the game. I try to support my team. Many times I'm the only uplinker in the game. But putting down uplinks is not something I want to do for the whole match (though I regularly do it several times a game). I also want to fight AV and do other stuff (terminating clones). So why is it, that you guys think equipment spam Is a good enough reason to implement those changes. If it wasn't for my effort, in many pubs I'd be running the whole way from base to the fight on every spawn. And you know what, in my experience some of the worst spammers, are dedicated logis. These changes won't change a lot regarding spam. And by the way, if all the logis equipment is destroyed, why not make every player just glue to his starting role? Why are you suffering under the delusion that the suggestion will destroy ALL uplinks in case of switch? The proposed bw system would allow all deployed uplinks that fit within the band with limits out. The only suit that has zero be is a dentinal, ergo as long as you aren't switching to a sentinal you will keep some uplinks. This effectively functions as a boost to the logistics suit and encourages its use. If you are simply placing uplinks and switching you are part of the problem. As far as equipment spam being a problem it is. It lags the game, discourages actual strategy and encourages an overuse of sentinals with hmgs by allowing people to freely switch and farm wps while being nigh unkillable. If you do not understand this then I am sorry.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 532	Posted - 2014.11.21 19:48:00 - [63] - Quote korrah silain wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it by applying further restrictions with no counterbalance to emphasize the role. Unfortunately the system you propose is not fair any more than proposing all suits get a heavy weapon slot would be fair, each role is a specialization and needs to possess advantages accordingly. The BW system does this, whereas the OP does not. 0.02 ISK Cross Hey Cross, what I don't get about the you guys trying to reinvent the logi, is the fact that you seem to have the opinion that everybody should play the same role for the whole match... That is completely opposite of why many play this game. If you destroy all my deployed equipment when I say change into an AV suit, than you punish my efforts from the start or mid of the game. I try to support my team. Many times I'm the only uplinker in the game. But putting down uplinks is not something I want to do for the whole match (though I regularly do it several times a game). I also want to fight AV and do other stuff (terminating clones). So why is it, that you guys think equipment spam Is a good enough reason to implement those changes. If it wasn't for my effort, in many pubs I'd be running the whole way from base to the fight on every spawn. And you know what, in my experience some of the worst spammers, are dedicated logis. These changes won't change a lot regarding spam. And by the way, if all the logis equipment is destroyed, why not make every player just glue to his starting role? Why are you suffering under the delusion that the suggestion will destroy ALL uplinks in case of switch? The proposed bw system would allow all deployed uplinks that fit within the band with limits out. The only suit that has zero be is a dentinal, ergo as long as you aren't switching to a sentinal you will keep some uplinks. This effectively functions as a boost to the logistics suit and encourages its use. If you are simply placing uplinks and switching you are part of the problem. As far as equipment spam being a problem it is. It lags the game, discourages actual strategy and encourages an overuse of sentinals with hmgs by allowing people to freely switch and farm wps while being nigh unkillable. If you do not understand this then I am sorry. And how do you miss that there are other options for addressing the equipment spam issues that don't infringe on the players' ability to choose? The choice limitation is primarily a nerf for Logis, since when a heavy switches to scout all the work he did as a heavy he keeps! All frames except Logis will be this way, whereas on the inverse if you do Logistical work and for w/e reason have to switch you LOSE the work you performed! And thats just suit switching between classes, the problem STILL exists switching INSIDE the class ie If I run my Amarr Logi and lay links I'm not going to be able to run my CalLogi and also lay hives! Or If I run my Amarr AV minefield builder I'm not going to be able to then trun around and lay links! And so you know, I'm not talking about spamming out 100 links or hives, just usable quantities to establish and retain Field Control. You know, Combat Logistics? BW limits will force most all gameplay into BlobWork, which I guess is the norm in EVE but really will make DUST boring as hell, since it ISN'T a naval warfare simulator, its a ground combat simulator and while they have similarities they do have inherent differences. Other options are available to address the problems which DON'T saddle the Logistics class player with this negative. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
korrah silain True Illuminate 7	Posted - 2014.11.21 19:59:00 - [64] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it by applying further restrictions with no counterbalance to emphasize the role. Unfortunately the system you propose is not fair any more than proposing all suits get a heavy weapon slot would be fair, each role is a specialization and needs to possess advantages accordingly. The BW system does this, whereas the OP does not. 0.02 ISK Cross Hey Cross, what I don't get about the you guys trying to reinvent the logi, is the fact that you seem to have the opinion that everybody should play the same role for the whole match... That is completely opposite of why many play this game. If you destroy all my deployed equipment when I say change into an AV suit, than you punish my efforts from the start or mid of the game. I try to support my team. Many times I'm the only uplinker in the game. But putting down uplinks is not something I want to do for the whole match (though I regularly do it several times a game). I also want to fight AV and do other stuff (terminating clones). So why is it, that you guys think equipment spam Is a good enough reason to implement those changes. If it wasn't for my effort, in many pubs I'd be running the whole way from base to the fight on every spawn. And you know what, in my experience some of the worst spammers, are dedicated logis. These changes won't change a lot regarding spam. And by the way, if all the logis equipment is destroyed, why not make every player just glue to his starting role? Why are you suffering under the delusion that the suggestion will destroy ALL uplinks in case of switch? The proposed bw system would allow all deployed uplinks that fit within the band with limits out. The only suit that has zero be is a dentinal, ergo as long as you aren't switching to a sentinal you will keep some uplinks. This effectively functions as a boost to the logistics suit and encourages its use. If you are simply placing uplinks and switching you are part of the problem. As far as equipment spam being a problem it is. It lags the game, discourages actual strategy and encourages an overuse of sentinals with hmgs by allowing people to freely switch and farm wps while being nigh unkillable. If you do not understand this then I am sorry. And how do you miss that there are other options for addressing the equipment spam issues that don't infringe on the players' ability to choose? The choice limitation is primarily a nerf for Logis, since when a heavy switches to scout all the work he did as a heavy he keeps! All frames except Logis will be this way, whereas on the inverse if you do Logistical work and for w/e reason have to switch you LOSE the work you performed! And thats just suit switching between classes, the problem STILL exists switching INSIDE the class ie If I run my Amarr Logi and lay links I'm not going to be able to run my CalLogi and also lay hives! Or If I run my Amarr AV minefield builder I'm not going to be able to then trun around and lay links! And so you know, I'm not talking about spamming out 100 links or hives, just usable quantities to establish and retain Field Control. You know, Combat Logistics? BW limits will force most all gameplay into BlobWork, which I guess is the norm in EVE but really will make DUST boring as hell, since it ISN'T a naval warfare simulator, its a ground combat simulator and while they have similarities they do have inherent differences. Other options are available to address the problems which DON'T saddle the Logistics class player with this negative. A heavys kills stay dead for the entire battle? How have I been respawning? If you want to kill as a logo then use the gun you get. As far as keeping things managable you will still keep uplinks when you switch, Only some are destroyed as according to your new suit. You want to kill stuff in a suit not limited like the logi then fine but you don't keep the bonuses.
Ku Shala The Generals 1023	Posted - 2014.11.21 20:12:00 - [65] - Quote are you going to give heavies an equipment slot? my cal sent is slow so now to forge from elevation I need to call a dropship fly to the tower fire enough forge shots to take out 1 or 2 installations or vehicles fall to the groung call in an rdv with another vehicle to get to a supply depot recall my vehicle or leave it for a BB call in another dropship fly to elevation again to kill 2 maybe 3 vehicles? i support anti spam but make limits per player not suit bandwidth *-¦a+ó a+ú-Æa+äla+ä (Caldari Specialist)* Caldari Loyalist *Assault -Logistics-Sentinal-Scout-Commando Allround CK-0
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 532	Posted - 2014.11.21 20:26:00 - [66] - Quote korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it by applying further restrictions with no counterbalance to emphasize the role. Unfortunately the system you propose is not fair any more than proposing all suits get a heavy weapon slot would be fair, each role is a specialization and needs to possess advantages accordingly. The BW system does this, whereas the OP does not. 0.02 ISK Cross Hey Cross, what I don't get about the you guys trying to reinvent the logi, is the fact that you seem to have the opinion that everybody should play the same role for the whole match... That is completely opposite of why many play this game. If you destroy all my deployed equipment when I say change into an AV suit, than you punish my efforts from the start or mid of the game. I try to support my team. Many times I'm the only uplinker in the game. But putting down uplinks is not something I want to do for the whole match (though I regularly do it several times a game). I also want to fight AV and do other stuff (terminating clones). So why is it, that you guys think equipment spam Is a good enough reason to implement those changes. If it wasn't for my effort, in many pubs I'd be running the whole way from base to the fight on every spawn. And you know what, in my experience some of the worst spammers, are dedicated logis. These changes won't change a lot regarding spam. And by the way, if all the logis equipment is destroyed, why not make every player just glue to his starting role? Why are you suffering under the delusion that the suggestion will destroy ALL uplinks in case of switch? The proposed bw system would allow all deployed uplinks that fit within the band with limits out. The only suit that has zero be is a dentinal, ergo as long as you aren't switching to a sentinal you will keep some uplinks. This effectively functions as a boost to the logistics suit and encourages its use. If you are simply placing uplinks and switching you are part of the problem. As far as equipment spam being a problem it is. It lags the game, discourages actual strategy and encourages an overuse of sentinals with hmgs by allowing people to freely switch and farm wps while being nigh unkillable. If you do not understand this then I am sorry. And how do you miss that there are other options for addressing the equipment spam issues that don't infringe on the players' ability to choose? The choice limitation is primarily a nerf for Logis, since when a heavy switches to scout all the work he did as a heavy he keeps! All frames except Logis will be this way, whereas on the inverse if you do Logistical work and for w/e reason have to switch you LOSE the work you performed! And thats just suit switching between classes, the problem STILL exists switching INSIDE the class ie If I run my Amarr Logi and lay links I'm not going to be able to run my CalLogi and also lay hives! Or If I run my Amarr AV minefield builder I'm not going to be able to then trun around and lay links! And so you know, I'm not talking about spamming out 100 links or hives, just usable quantities to establish and retain Field Control. You know, Combat Logistics? BW limits will force most all gameplay into BlobWork, which I guess is the norm in EVE but really will make DUST boring as hell, since it ISN'T a naval warfare simulator, its a ground combat simulator and while they have similarities they do have inherent differences. Other options are available to address the problems which DON'T saddle the Logistics class player with this negative. A heavys kills stay dead for the entire battle? How have I been respawning? If you want to kill as a logo then use the gun you get. As far as keeping things managable you will still keep uplinks when you switch, Only some are destroyed as according to your new suit. You want to kill stuff in a suit not limited like the logi then fine but you don't keep the bonuses. Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Vell0cet Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2601	Posted - 2014.11.21 20:41:00 - [67] - Quote Have you considered making an AV logi suit? Because that would solve a lot of your complaints. This isn't a nerf to Logis it's a nerf to every other role, and it's an awesome way to address the issue. Best PvE idea ever!
korrah silain True Illuminate 8	Posted - 2014.11.21 20:56:00 - [68] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it b A heavys kills stay dead for the entire battle? How have I been respawning? If you want to kill as a logo then use the gun you get. As far as keeping things managable you will still keep uplinks when you switch, Only some are destroyed as according to your new suit. You want to kill stuff in a suit not limited like the logi then fine but you don't keep the bonuses.[/quote] Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. [/quote] Your entire complaint against this is "but then I lose ALL MY UPLINKS when I switch suits to kill!!! This is dumb because: A) logis switching is the entire problem. B)this effects other suit not the logi suits (as much) because the logis have the bw to have multiple uplinks. Want to farm was/support your team then wear the suit that was intended for it. You can still kill because you have a weapon, want an av fit? Fit a swarmed onto the same suit as a variant then jump back when your mission is accomplished. Same be in same suit no problem there. As for the immortal clone sole comment that was in response to the accusation that heavies don't lose their accomplishments when they spawn, well no but they do lose their only accomplishment (killing) when their victems respawn. It really sounds like you are crying that this "Nerf" to the logis is forcing you to play a logi instead of switching.
Mad Syringe ReDust Inc. 342	Posted - 2014.11.21 21:25:00 - [69] - Quote I think I need to elaborate my point! My problem is that my uplinks (most of them or all when spawning heavy) are DESTROYED. In EVE when you leave your drones in space, do they explode? No they don't you can pick them up in a certain timeframe. It should not be different in Dust. If you switch to a suit with less bandwith, the stuff you put down in a logi suit, should just DEACTIVATE !!! So if you switch back to logi, everything starts to work as before! This is the only way to not punish logies that do not want to play in one role for the whole game. There have been enough games where my 6! upliks that I deploy at every game start have made a difference. My being a dedicated maxed AV minmando is obviously helping as well. Why should I be punished when everybody else can switch with no consequences. The only thing I don't want is the DESTRUCTION of the EQUIPMENT. DEACTIVATION while in a low bandwith suit is FINE! And to fight the spam, we need a hardcap of deployed equipment for every Suit, including a logi! I have played logi exclusively for my first year in dust (since open beta) so I know what I'm talking about. No logi needs more than 10 pieces of Equipment on the ground. If he switches to Assautl, only 4 of those would stay active. If he switches to Commando only 3 would stay active. If he switches to Scout, only 2. And the Fatty would only have one or maybe even nothing active. As soon as he switches back to Logi, everything starts working again (if not destroyed inbetwheen). This would encourage strategic placing of stuff, so that if your close to objective links get destroyed and you are in a low bandwith suit, the older links get reactivated automaticly up to the bandwith limit. This would be a fair solution. Because you wouldn't want to be locked to one role. If stuff above bandwith is DESTROYED, I demand that no suit exept logis can use EQUIPMENT AT ALL. When I have to stay in my Suit the whole game to keep my stuff on the field, nobody else should be able to do part time logi aswell by putting down equipment! Dedicated Minmando Masshole with love for Swarmholing... Not playing logi that much anymore... which is a shame...
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 533	Posted - 2014.11.21 21:46:00 - [70] - Quote korrah silain wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it b A heavys kills stay dead for the entire battle? How have I been respawning? If you want to kill as a logo then use the gun you get. As far as keeping things managable you will still keep uplinks when you switch, Only some are destroyed as according to your new suit. You want to kill stuff in a suit not limited like the logi then fine but you don't keep the bonuses. Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. [/quote] Your entire complaint against this is "but then I lose ALL MY UPLINKS when I switch suits to kill!!! This is dumb because: A) logis switching is the entire problem. B)this effects other suit not the logi suits (as much) because the logis have the bw to have multiple uplinks. Want to farm was/support your team then wear the suit that was intended for it. You can still kill because you have a weapon, want an av fit? Fit a swarmed onto the same suit as a variant then jump back when your mission is accomplished. Same be in same suit no problem there. As for the immortal clone sole comment that was in response to the accusation that heavies don't lose their accomplishments when they spawn, well no but they do lose their only accomplishment (killing) when their victems respawn. It really sounds like you are crying that this "Nerf" to the logis is forcing you to play a logi instead of switching. Edit: Logos "brah" do you even critical think? (Logos is not a typo of logis it is Latin for logic, one of the three cornerstones of traditional debate the other being ethos: ethical arguments, and pathos, appeals to emotion)[/quote] So lets keep things Logocal and not lose sight of the problem. Equipment spam is the problem, particularly around Supply Depots. Not suit switching. Suit switching YES is HOW many spammers ply their trade HOWEVER is not the actual problem, the SPAM is. So address the SPAM and don't f with the switching! Logo enough for you? As far as my Logi play goes, I am full Logi, through and through. Invested, committed, active at the highest levels of gameplay available. And I guess its these highest levels that very few others participate in that will be hurt that others don't understand because we ALL hate the spam but only a few of us can see there are ways to address it that don't as a peripheral consequence screw other gameplay. If not, allow me to deposit a nice RL parrallel: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.

korrah silain True Illuminate 8	Posted - 2014.11.21 21:59:00 - [71] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it b A heavys kills stay dead for the entire battle? How have I been respawning? If you want to kill as a logo then use the gun you get. As far as keeping things managable you will still keep uplinks when you switch, Only some are destroyed as according to your new suit. You want to kill stuff in a suit not limited like the logi then fine but you don't keep the bonuses. Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. Your entire complaint against this is "but then I lose ALL MY UPLINKS when I switch suits to kill!!! This is dumb because: A) logis switching is the entire problem. B)this effects other suit not the logi suits (as much) because the logis have the bw to have multiple uplinks. Want to farm was/support your team then wear the suit that was intended for it. You can still kill because you have a weapon, want an av fit? Fit a swarmed onto the same suit as a variant then jump back when your mission is accomplished. Same be in same suit no problem there. As for the immortal clone sole comment that was in response to the accusation that heavies don't lose their accomplishments when they spawn, well no but they do lose their only accomplishment (killing) when their victems respawn. It really sounds like you are crying that this "Nerf" to the logis is forcing you to play a logi instead of switching. Edit: Logos "brah" do you even critical think? (Logos is not a typo of logis it is Latin for logic, one of the three cornerstones of traditional debate the other being ethos: ethical arguments, and pathos, appeals to emotion)[/quote] So lets keep things Logocal and not lose sight of the problem. Equipment spam is the problem, particularly around Supply Depots. Not suit switching. Suit switching YES is HOW many spammers ply their trade HOWEVER is not the actual problem, the SPAM is. So address the SPAM and don't f with the switching! Logo enough for you? As far as my Logi play goes, I am full Logi, through and through. Invested, committed, active at the highest levels of gameplay available. And I guess its these highest levels that very few others participate in that will be hurt that others don't understand because we ALL hate the spam but only a few of us can see there are ways to address it that don't as a peripheral consequence screw other gameplay. If not, allow me to deposit a nice RL parrallel: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. [/quote] Um except the bandwidth limit does combat spammers because it ALSO limits the amount of equipment out period. So not only does the solution come down hard on the suit switchers, it also comes down on spammers while still giving the logis breathing room. Where is the problem? You have yet to show (besides eliminating suit switching tourist logis) how this needs dedicated logis...so no...not logo enough.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2056	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:08:00 - [72] - Quote korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it b A heavys kills stay dead for the entire battle? How have I been respawning? If you want to kill as a logo then use the gun you get. As far as keeping things managable you will still keep uplinks when you switch, Only some are destroyed as according to your new suit. You want to kill stuff in a suit not limited like the logi then fine but you don't keep the bonuses. Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. Your entire complaint against this is "but then I lose ALL MY UPLINKS when I switch suits to kill!!! This is dumb because: A) logis switching is the entire problem. B)this effects other suit not the logi suits (as much) because the logis have the bw to have multiple uplinks. Want to farm was/support your team then wear the suit that was intended for it. You can still kill because you have a weapon, want an av fit? Fit a swarmed onto the same suit as a variant then jump back when your mission is accomplished. Same be in same suit no problem there. As for the immortal clone sole comment that was in response to the accusation that heavies don't lose their accomplishments when they spawn, well no but they do lose their only accomplishment (killing) when their victems respawn. It really sounds like you are crying that this "Nerf" to the logis is forcing you to play a logi instead of switching. Edit: Logos "brah" do you even critical think? (Logos is not a typo of logis it is Latin for logic, one of the three cornerstones of traditional debate the other being ethos: ethical arguments, and pathos, appeals to emotion) So lets keep things Logocal and not lose sight of the problem. Equipment spam is the problem, particularly around Supply Depots. Not suit switching. Suit switching YES is HOW many spammers ply their trade HOWEVER is not the actual problem, the SPAM is. So address the SPAM and don't f with the switching! Logo enough for you? As far as my Logi play goes, I am full Logi, through and through. Invested, committed, active at the highest levels of gameplay available. And I guess its these highest levels that very few others participate in that will be hurt that others don't understand because we ALL hate the spam but only a few of us can see there are ways to address it that don't as a peripheral consequence screw other gameplay. If not, allow me to deposit a nice RL parrallel: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. [/quote] Um except the bandwidth limit does combat spammers because it ALSO limits the amount of equipment out period. So not only does the solution come down hard on the suit switchers, it also comes down on spammers while still giving the logis breathing room. Where is the problem? You have yet to show (besides eliminating suit switching tourist logis) how this needs dedicated logis...so no...not logo enough.[/quote] the problem is slayers (sentinels and scouts and some assaults) abuseing the logi role just to slap down as much WP generating crap on the ground as possible so they can gain passive wp while they get slayer WP too.. more so i think it was cross who stated that sentinels drop hives/rephives down and just switch to sentinel afterwards to be "stand alone" slayer i could say.. use flux? use EMP?(when its introduced) use mass? use anything with splash! this is why im campaigning against bandwidth UNTILL we have had some time with the NEW ORBITALS to see how they effect the game as i believe with everyone getting acess to solo EMP OB and solo normal OB at reduced cost if you introduce bandwidth AND the new orbitals it could just be like adding too much salt to food.. you cannot really remove the salt afterwards and it leaves an aweful taste in your mouth if you just tolerate it. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 533	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:10:00 - [73] - Quote korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it b A heavys kills stay dead for the entire battle? How have I been respawning? If you want to kill as a logo then use the gun you get. As far as keeping things managable you will still keep uplinks when you switch, Only some are destroyed as according to your new suit. You want to kill stuff in a suit not limited like the logi then fine but you don't keep the bonuses. Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. Your entire complaint against this is "but then I lose ALL MY UPLINKS when I switch suits to kill!!! This is dumb because: A) logis switching is the entire problem. B)this effects other suit not the logi suits (as much) because the logis have the bw to have multiple uplinks. Want to farm was/support your team then wear the suit that was intended for it. You can still kill because you have a weapon, want an av fit? Fit a swarmed onto the same suit as a variant then jump back when your mission is accomplished. Same be in same suit no problem there. As for the immortal clone sole comment that was in response to the accusation that heavies don't lose their accomplishments when they spawn, well no but they do lose their only accomplishment (killing) when their victems respawn. It really sounds like you are crying that this "Nerf" to the logis is forcing you to play a logi instead of switching. Edit: Logos "brah" do you even critical think? (Logos is not a typo of logis it is Latin for logic, one of the three cornerstones of traditional debate the other being ethos: ethical arguments, and pathos, appeals to emotion) So lets keep things Logocal and not lose sight of the problem. Equipment spam is the problem, particularly around Supply Depots. Not suit switching. Suit switching YES is HOW many spammers ply their trade HOWEVER is not the actual problem, the SPAM is. So address the SPAM and don't f with the switching! Logo enough for you? As far as my Logi play goes, I am full Logi, through and through. Invested, committed, active at the highest levels of gameplay available. And I guess its these highest levels that very few others participate in that will be hurt that others don't understand because we ALL hate the spam but only a few of us can see there are ways to address it that don't as a peripheral consequence screw other gameplay. If not, allow me to deposit a nice RL parrallel: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. [/quote] Um except the bandwidth limit does combat spammers because it ALSO limits the amount of equipment out period. So not only does the solution come down hard on the suit switchers, it also comes down on spammers while still giving the logis breathing room. Where is the problem? You have yet to show (besides eliminating suit switching tourist logis) how this needs dedicated logis...so no...not logo enough.[/quote] Because the Logistics gameplay being preserved is blobbing, but the gameplay being sacrificed is actual Combat Logistics. Instead of just solving the SPAM. BW will reduce some forms of spam, agreed, but not all. It will ,however, however eliminate all Logistical gameplay outside of BLOBS. Again, these results, spam elimination, could be achieved WITHOUT reducing all Logistics utility to simply serving the blob. And you can keep trying to frame me as a "tourist" but if you go read the Logistics Support thread all the way through and pay attention to my input there you'll see clearly I am anything but. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Vell0cet Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2602	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:10:00 - [74] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: I think I need to elaborate my point! My problem is that my uplinks (most of them or all when spawning heavy) are DESTROYED. In EVE when you leave your drones in space, do they explode? No they don't you can pick them up in a certain timeframe. It should not be different in Dust. If you switch to a suit with less bandwith, the stuff you put down in a logi suit, should just DEACTIVATE !!! So if you switch back to logi, everything starts to work as before! This is the only way to not punish logies that do not want to play in one role for the whole game. There have been enough games where my 6! upliks that I deploy at every game start have made a difference. My being a dedicated maxed AV minmando is obviously helping as well. Why should I be punished when everybody else can switch with no consequences. The only thing I don't want is the DESTRUCTION of the EQUIPMENT. DEACTIVATION while in a low bandwith suit is FINE! And to fight the spam, we need a hardcap of deployed equipment for every Suit, including a logi! I have played logi exclusively for my first year in dust (since open beta) so I know what I'm talking about. No logi needs more than 10 pieces of Equipment on the ground. If he switches to Assautl, only 4 of those would stay active. If he switches to Commando only 3 would stay active. If he switches to Scout, only 2. And the Fatty would only have one or maybe even nothing active. As soon as he switches back to Logi, everything starts working again (if not destroyed inbetwheen). This would encourage strategic placing of stuff, so that if your close to objective links get destroyed and you are in a low bandwith suit, the older links get reactivated automaticly up to the bandwith limit. This would be a fair solution. Because you wouldn't want to be locked to one role. If stuff above bandwith is DESTROYED, I demand that no suit exept logis can use EQUIPMENT AT ALL. When I have to stay in my Suit the whole game to keep my stuff on the field, nobody else should be able to do part time logi aswell by putting down equipment! If you wanted this to work like EVE, you'd have to approach each piece of deactivated equipment and re-activate it. Best PvE idea ever!
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2057	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:15:00 - [75] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: I think I need to elaborate my point! My problem is that my uplinks (most of them or all when spawning heavy) are DESTROYED. In EVE when you leave your drones in space, do they explode? No they don't you can pick them up in a certain timeframe. It should not be different in Dust. If you switch to a suit with less bandwith, the stuff you put down in a logi suit, should just DEACTIVATE !!! So if you switch back to logi, everything starts to work as before! This is the only way to not punish logies that do not want to play in one role for the whole game. There have been enough games where my 6! upliks that I deploy at every game start have made a difference. My being a dedicated maxed AV minmando is obviously helping as well. Why should I be punished when everybody else can switch with no consequences. The only thing I don't want is the DESTRUCTION of the EQUIPMENT. DEACTIVATION while in a low bandwith suit is FINE! And to fight the spam, we need a hardcap of deployed equipment for every Suit, including a logi! I have played logi exclusively for my first year in dust (since open beta) so I know what I'm talking about. No logi needs more than 10 pieces of Equipment on the ground. If he switches to Assautl, only 4 of those would stay active. If he switches to Commando only 3 would stay active. If he switches to Scout, only 2. And the Fatty would only have one or maybe even nothing active. As soon as he switches back to Logi, everything starts working again (if not destroyed inbetwheen). This would encourage strategic placing of stuff, so that if your close to objective links get destroyed and you are in a low bandwith suit, the older links get reactivated automaticly up to the bandwith limit. This would be a fair solution. Because you wouldn't want to be locked to one role. If stuff above bandwith is DESTROYED, I demand that no suit exept logis can use EQUIPMENT AT ALL. When I have to stay in my Suit the whole game to keep my stuff on the field, nobody else should be able to do part time logi aswell by putting down equipment! If you wanted this to work like EVE, you'd have to approach each piece of deactivated equipment and re-activate it. ugh.. just gives me nightmares thinking about how we had to rep all the POS moduals and the POS to online it again after we sucessfully defend it for the second time [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
korrah silain True Illuminate 9	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:18:00 - [76] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: Cross Atu wrote: Za'ki no system which binds its limits to the player rather than the active deployed dropsuit will be adequate in that no player bound system will address 'dumbfire self logi' (aka spam) which currently not only clutters the field but also undercuts support play. Playing logistics & support should be just that playing. It should not be a thing you do for the first few seconds or minutes of a match prior to depot swapping into a new suit to go slaying (or AV rooftop camping). Support play needs a rework and buff, the OP trivializes the role of support/logistics keeping it in the current passive state while also nerfing it b A heavys kills stay dead for the entire battle? How have I been respawning? If you want to kill as a logo then use the gun you get. As far as keeping things managable you will still keep uplinks when you switch, Only some are destroyed as according to your new suit. You want to kill stuff in a suit not limited like the logi then fine but you don't keep the bonuses. Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. Your entire complaint against this is "but then I lose ALL MY UPLINKS when I switch suits to kill!!! This is dumb because: A) logis switching is the entire problem. B)this effects other suit not the logi suits (as much) because the logis have the bw to have multiple uplinks. Want to farm was/support your team then wear the suit that was intended for it. You can still kill because you have a weapon, want an av fit? Fit a swarmed onto the same suit as a variant then jump back when your mission is accomplished. Same be in same suit no problem there. As for the immortal clone sole comment that was in response to the accusation that heavies don't lose their accomplishments when they spawn, well no but they do lose their only accomplishment (killing) when their victems respawn. It really sounds like you are crying that this "Nerf" to the logis is forcing you to play a logi instead of switching. Edit: Logos "brah" do you even critical think? (Logos is not a typo of logis it is Latin for logic, one of the three cornerstones of traditional debate the other being ethos: ethical arguments, and pathos, appeals to emotion) So lets keep things Logocal and not lose sight of the problem. Equipment spam is the problem, particularly around Supply Depots. Not suit switching. Suit switching YES is HOW many spammers ply their trade HOWEVER is not the actual problem, the SPAM is. So address the SPAM and don't f with the switching! Logo enough for you? As far as my Logi play goes, I am full Logi, through and through. Invested, committed, active at the highest levels of gameplay available. And I guess its these highest levels that very few others participate in that will be hurt that others don't understand because we ALL hate the spam but only a few of us can see there are ways to address it that don't as a peripheral consequence screw other gameplay. If not, allow me to deposit a nice RL parrallel: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Um except the bandwidth limit does combat spammers because it ALSO limits the amount of equipment out period. So not only does the solution come down hard on the suit switchers, it also comes down on spammers while still giving the logis breathing room. Where is the problem? You have yet to show (besides eliminating suit switching tourist logis) how this needs dedicated logis...so no...not logo enough.[/quote] Because the Logistics gameplay being preserved is blobbing, but the gameplay being sacrificed is actual Combat Logistics. Instead of just solving the SPAM. BW will reduce some forms of spam, agreed, but not all. It will ,however, however eliminate all Logistical gameplay outside of BLOBS. Again, these results, spam elimination, could be achieved WITHOUT reducing all Logistics utility to simply serving the blob. And you can keep trying to frame me as a "tourist" but if you go read the Logistics Support thread all the way through and pay attention to my input there you'll see clearly I am anything but. [/quote] How is this solution eliminating logistic and strategic placement? If anything it should encourage it considering your limited resources need to be use more effectively. I have seen matches where as few as 4 uplinks were deployed and allowed the team full effective tactical movement? And if you have another idea in another thread then post a link. As it stands here I am arguing for band width because it seems all the complaints I hear are incorrect, lacking evidence, or frivolous. (And I still see no evidence for your arguments...perhaps examples would help?)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 533	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:21:00 - [77] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: I think I need to elaborate my point! My problem is that my uplinks (most of them or all when spawning heavy) are DESTROYED. In EVE when you leave your drones in space, do they explode? No they don't you can pick them up in a certain timeframe. It should not be different in Dust. If you switch to a suit with less bandwith, the stuff you put down in a logi suit, should just DEACTIVATE !!! So if you switch back to logi, everything starts to work as before! This is the only way to not punish logies that do not want to play in one role for the whole game. There have been enough games where my 6! upliks that I deploy at every game start have made a difference. My being a dedicated maxed AV minmando is obviously helping as well. Why should I be punished when everybody else can switch with no consequences. The only thing I don't want is the DESTRUCTION of the EQUIPMENT. DEACTIVATION while in a low bandwith suit is FINE! And to fight the spam, we need a hardcap of deployed equipment for every Suit, including a logi! I have played logi exclusively for my first year in dust (since open beta) so I know what I'm talking about. No logi needs more than 10 pieces of Equipment on the ground. If he switches to Assautl, only 4 of those would stay active. If he switches to Commando only 3 would stay active. If he switches to Scout, only 2. And the Fatty would only have one or maybe even nothing active. As soon as he switches back to Logi, everything starts working again (if not destroyed inbetwheen). This would encourage strategic placing of stuff, so that if your close to objective links get destroyed and you are in a low bandwith suit, the older links get reactivated automaticly up to the bandwith limit. This would be a fair solution. Because you wouldn't want to be locked to one role. If stuff above bandwith is DESTROYED, I demand that no suit exept logis can use EQUIPMENT AT ALL. When I have to stay in my Suit the whole game to keep my stuff on the field, nobody else should be able to do part time logi aswell by putting down equipment! If you wanted this to work like EVE, you'd have to approach each piece of deactivated equipment and re-activate it. Not everything in here has to work exactly like EVE. If EVE mechanics were that great after all this time that game would be way bigger, not to knock EVE but jus' sayin'. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2058	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:29:00 - [78] - Quote korrah silain wrote: too many quites.. something about logi being useless outside of blobs very true.. i have seen logis slowly dieing off.. we are the second least used suit in the game only slightly less then commando! logi cannot hardly make WP with out uplinks being somewhat persistant(so sorry shayz i dont like your 18 uplink with 3 spawns per uplink idea, because of scouts) so they can get some WP why they perform necessary actions like hacking minor objectives (silos/CRUs vehicles) a logi comes into his own when he is on the front line of a locked gun-battle with uplinks calling in the Un-reviveable clones to bolster the front line but also supply ammo to the troops to keep the locked battle going.. over the number of nerfs and changes locked battles have become somewhat of a fable of late... which i can attest with out these locked battles logi are midway or even at the lower end of the EOM ranking.. with scout/sentinel usually being the top 3 now.. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2058	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:33:00 - [79] - Quote korrah silain wrote: How is this solution eliminating logistic and strategic placement? If anything it should encourage it considering your limited resources need to be use more effectively. I have seen matches where as few as 4 uplinks were deployed and allowed the team full effective tactical movement? And if you have another idea in another thread then post a link. As it stands here I am arguing for band width because it seems all the complaints I hear are incorrect, lacking evidence, or frivolous. (And I still see no evidence for your arguments...perhaps examples would help?) a simple idea could be dont allow equipment that is uplink/hive/triage-hive to be placed with in 10 to 15 m of a silo.. this may stop a little of the spam. but even so on that one map with the underground silo i find a Leeroy scout with flux nades clears it all up nice and quick and get a chunk of WP too.. when we get Solo and team EMP orbitals this will make it even easier.. [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
John Demonsbane Unorganized Ninja Infantry Tactics 4665	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:36:00 - [80] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: I remember this thread and the irony in your reposting seems lost on you considering it's basically 18 pages of defense of Logistics playstyle that will be eliminated with BW imposition as proposed. BW imposition that, largely, is agreed upon as not really eliminating the spam issue it's meant to address. Ever heard the phrase, "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"? You're giving up a bird in our hand for nothing in a bush. Thats a nerf . EDIT: Oh, and handing over Athena Sentinel the victory s/he was looking for in posting that thread. So, one, how is that "largely" agreed upon, exactly? By whom.. You and the OP? As for that fool Athena, what victory? Never got what she wanted, and still won't. I can still swap at a supply depot to switch from an uplink suit to a medic suit, or even a nanohive suit, provided I don't need (not want) more than 8 pieces of EQ out, which I rarely do. This is basically the last time I'm going to respond to one of your posts on the subject of BW because it's simply not getting anywhere. Amarrian God as my witness, I honestly don't think you have the slightest clue how this system really works and what it's intended to do. I am not trolling in any way when I say that. Your comments about this being a buff to scouts somehow, for example, simply defy logic. Bandwith is not a fcking buff to scouts, that makes exactly zero sense. It's not a major buff to logis either, but, stay with me here, thats not the purpose of it. The purpose is to limit EQ spam as much as possible while limiting the impact on dedicated logis as much as possible.* To put it another way, BANDWITH NERFS EVERYONE'S ABILITY TO DROP EQUIPMENT. IT NERFS LOGIS SUBSTANTIALLY LESS. WE ARE NOT TRYING TO TOTALLY FIX LOGIS HERE WITH THIS ONE THING AND STOP THERE. The major buffs to logis are still needed, still on the table, and are not directly related to this in any way. Tell you what, give me a better proposal. Come up with an actual proposal specifically designed to reduce spam.: - Not some nebulous combination of things we've been talking about in Cross' thread. - Not buffing logis in a way unrelated to equipment. Focus! - Not nerfing scouts in a way unrelated to equipment (your scout rage is clouding your judgement, tbh) - Not solo orbitals - Not the radius thing which, yes, is a great idea, which is why I've suggested it 83 times, but you can claim to be whatever amazing coding guru you want, if the developers of the damn game specifically say they can't do it, I'm gonna drop it and move on to something that can actually be done.\ - Not some pie in the sky idea that's not practical - and for the love of God not a blanket restriction of x number of peices of equipment on everyone. Anyone who thinks that's a better solution from the logi perspective should be immediately sterilized as for the good of the human race they should not be allowed to pass on their DNA. Do not mention any of those things, give me a better way to do it that's feasible, will, work, and have much less effect on people in logi suits than everyone else. Do that and I'll stop supporting BW and promote yours. (The godfather of tactical logistics)

korrah silain True Illuminate 9	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:36:00 - [81] - Quote Apothecary Za'ki wrote: korrah silain wrote: How is this solution eliminating logistic and strategic placement? If anything it should encourage it considering your limited resources need to be use more effectively. I have seen matches where as few as 4 uplinks were deployed and allowed the team full effective tactical movement? And if you have another idea in another thread then post a link. As it stands here I am arguing for band width because it seems all the complaints I hear are incorrect, lacking evidence, or frivolous. (And I still see no evidence for your arguments...perhaps examples would help?) a simple idea could be dont allow equipment that is uplink/hive/triage-hive to be placed with in 10 to 15 m of a silo.. this may stop a little of the spam. but even so on that one map with the underground silo i find a Leeroy scout with flux nades clears it all up nice and quick and get a chunk of WP too.. when we get Solo and team EMP orbitals this will make it even easier.. Yeah its not just around silos that there is a problem. It is all over.
Vell0cet Vengeance Unbound RISE of LEGION 2602	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:38:00 - [82] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Vell0cet wrote: Mad Syringe wrote: I think I need to elaborate my point! My problem is that my uplinks (most of them or all when spawning heavy) are DESTROYED. In EVE when you leave your drones in space, do they explode? No they don't you can pick them up in a certain timeframe. It should not be different in Dust. If you switch to a suit with less bandwith, the stuff you put down in a logi suit, should just DEACTIVATE !!! So if you switch back to logi, everything starts to work as before! This is the only way to not punish logies that do not want to play in one role for the whole game. There have been enough games where my 6! upliks that I deploy at every game start have made a difference. My being a dedicated maxed AV minmando is obviously helping as well. Why should I be punished when everybody else can switch with no consequences. The only thing I don't want is the DESTRUCTION of the EQUIPMENT. DEACTIVATION while in a low bandwith suit is FINE! And to fight the spam, we need a hardcap of deployed equipment for every Suit, including a logi! I have played logi exclusively for my first year in dust (since open beta) so I know what I'm talking about. No logi needs more than 10 pieces of Equipment on the ground. If he switches to Assautl, only 4 of those would stay active. If he switches to Commando only 3 would stay active. If he switches to Scout, only 2. And the Fatty would only have one or maybe even nothing active. As soon as he switches back to Logi, everything starts working again (if not destroyed inbetwheen). This would encourage strategic placing of stuff, so that if your close to objective links get destroyed and you are in a low bandwith suit, the older links get reactivated automaticly up to the bandwith limit. This would be a fair solution. Because you wouldn't want to be locked to one role. If stuff above bandwith is DESTROYED, I demand that no suit exept logis can use EQUIPMENT AT ALL. When I have to stay in my Suit the whole game to keep my stuff on the field, nobody else should be able to do part time logi aswell by putting down equipment! If you wanted this to work like EVE, you'd have to approach each piece of deactivated equipment and re-activate it. Not everything in here has to work exactly like EVE. If EVE mechanics were that great after all this time that game would be way bigger, not to knock EVE but jus' sayin'. I agree that not everything has to work like EVE. Which is why I love the way CCP Rattati wants to do it. My point was that if they were to implement an activation/reactivation mechanic because it was more like EVE, then you'd have to manually reactivate stuff. Best PvE idea ever!
korrah silain True Illuminate 9	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:40:00 - [83] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I remember this thread and the irony in your reposting seems lost on you considering it's basically 18 pages of defense of Logistics playstyle that will be eliminated with BW imposition as proposed. BW imposition that, largely, is agreed upon as not really eliminating the spam issue it's meant to address. Ever heard the phrase, "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"? You're giving up a bird in our hand for nothing in a bush. Thats a nerf . EDIT: Oh, and handing over Athena Sentinel the victory s/he was looking for in posting that thread. So, one, how is that "largely" agreed upon, exactly? By whom.. You and the OP? As for that fool Athena, what victory? Never got what she wanted, and still won't. I can still swap at a supply depot to switch from an uplink suit to a medic suit, or even a nanohive suit, provided I don't need (not want) more than 8 pieces of EQ out, which I rarely do. This is basically the last time I'm going to respond to one of your posts on the subject of BW because it's simply not getting anywhere. Amarrian God as my witness, I honestly don't think you have the slightest clue how this system really works and what it's intended to do. I am not trolling in any way when I say that. Your comments about this being a buff to scouts somehow, for example, simply defy logic. Bandwith is not a fcking buff to scouts, that makes exactly zero sense. It's not a major buff to logis either, but, stay with me here, thats not the purpose of it. The purpose is to limit EQ spam as much as possible while limiting the impact on dedicated logis as much as possible.* To put it another way, BANDWITH NERFS EVERYONE'S ABILITY TO DROP EQUIPMENT. IT NERFS LOGIS SUBSTANTIALLY LESS. WE ARE NOT TRYING TO TOTALLY FIX LOGIS HERE WITH THIS ONE THING AND STOP THERE. The major buffs to logis are still needed, still on the table, and are not directly related to this in any way. Tell you what, give me a better proposal. Come up with an actual proposal specifically designed to reduce spam.: - Not some nebulous combination of things we've been talking about in Cross' thread. - Not buffing logis in a way unrelated to equipment. Focus! - Not nerfing scouts in a way unrelated to equipment (your scout rage is clouding your judgement, tbh) - Not solo orbitals - Not the radius thing which, yes, is a great idea, which is why I've suggested it 83 times, but you can claim to be whatever amazing coding guru you want, if the developers of the damn game specifically say they can't do it, I'm gonna drop it and move on to something that can actually be done.\ - Not some pie in the sky idea that's not practical - and for the love of God not a blanket restriction of x number of peices of equipment on everyone. Anyone who thinks that's a better solution from the logi perspective should be immediately sterilized as for the good of the human race they should not be allowed to pass on their DNA. Do not mention any of those things, give me a better way to do it that's feasible, will, work, and have much less effect on people in logi suits than everyone else. Do that and I'll stop supporting BW and promote yours. Well earlier I had suggested that we limit equipments deployable byhighest level equipped (proto giving 3 uplinks, adv2, and std/mlta 1...)
Apothecary Za'ki Biomass Positive 2058	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:48:00 - [84] - Quote Mad Syringe wrote: No logi needs more than 10 pieces of Equipment on the ground. If stuff above bandwith is DESTROYED, I demand that no suit exept logis can use EQUIPMENT AT ALL. at most i use 3 uplinks.. maybe 1 hive at a time unless choakpoint gunfight of which i slap down 2 triage hives and try to get 2 ammo hives up too.. so thats.. 3+1(4) normal or 3+2+2(7) for heated gunbattles at choakpoints and if proximity mines didnt suck soo much rectum id probably slap a few on a bridge.. probably just 1 meta type.. since i can only use standard atm that would be another 3 to 4 soo that could be 10-11 equipment total IF its a heated gunbattle at a choakpoint, on/near a bridge, and hostiles dont flux/shoot my equipment for +5 WP each... which in the afore mentioned scenario is near imposable to do already as active scanner buff shows ALL the hostiles where my equipment is including mines.. and 1 flux can undo maybe 1 to 3 minutes of work.. and all this is even before i pull out my Rep-tool or injector... and now you see why logi is becomming a dieing role? [[LogiBro ADV/PRO]] [[Level 2 Forum Warrior]] [[Level 2 Forum Pariah]] All Hail our Lord and Savior CCP RATTATTI o7
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 534	Posted - 2014.11.21 22:56:00 - [85] - Quote korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. Your entire complaint against this is "but then I lose ALL MY UPLINKS when I switch suits to kill!!! This is dumb because: A) logis switching is the entire problem. B)this effects other suit not the logi suits (as much) because the logis have the bw to have multiple uplinks. Want to farm was/support your team then wear the suit that was intended for it. You can still kill because you have a weapon, want an av fit? Fit a swarmed onto the same suit as a variant then jump back when your mission is accomplished. Same be in same suit no problem there. As for the immortal clone sole comment that was in response to the accusation that heavies don't lose their accomplishments when they spawn, well no but they do lose their only accomplishment (killing) when their victems respawn. It really sounds like you are crying that this "Nerf" to the logis is forcing you to play a logi instead of switching. Edit: Logos "brah" do you even critical think? (Logos is not a typo of logis it is Latin for logic, one of the three cornerstones of traditional debate the other being ethos: ethical arguments, and pathos, appeals to emotion) So lets keep things Logocal and not lose sight of the problem. Equipment spam is the problem, particularly around Supply Depots. Not suit switching. Suit switching YES is HOW many spammers ply their trade HOWEVER is not the actual problem, the SPAM is. So address the SPAM and don't f with the switching! Logo enough for you? As far as my Logi play goes, I am full Logi, through and through. Invested, committed, active at the highest levels of gameplay available. And I guess its these highest levels that very few others participate in that will be hurt that others don't understand because we ALL hate the spam but only a few of us can see there are ways to address it that don't as a peripheral consequence screw other gameplay. If not, allow me to deposit a nice RL parrallel: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Um except the bandwidth limit does combat spammers because it ALSO limits the amount of equipment out period. So not only does the solution come down hard on the suit switchers, it also comes down on spammers while still giving the logis breathing room. Where is the problem? You have yet to show (besides eliminating suit switching tourist logis) how this needs dedicated logis...so no...not logo enough. Because the Logistics gameplay being preserved is blobbing, but the gameplay being sacrificed is actual Combat Logistics. Instead of just solving the SPAM. BW will reduce some forms of spam, agreed, but not all. It will ,however, however eliminate all Logistical gameplay outside of BLOBS. Again, these results, spam elimination, could be achieved WITHOUT reducing all Logistics utility to simply serving the blob. And you can keep trying to frame me as a "tourist" but if you go read the Logistics Support thread all the way through and pay attention to my input there you'll see clearly I am anything but. [/quote] How is this solution eliminating logistic and strategic placement? If anything it should encourage it considering your limited resources need to be use more effectively. I have seen matches where as few as 4 uplinks were deployed and allowed the team full effective tactical movement? And if you have another idea in another thread then post a link. As it stands here I am arguing for band width because it seems all the complaints I hear are incorrect, lacking evidence, or frivolous. (And I still see no evidence for your arguments...perhaps examples would help?)[/quote] Sorry bud, I'm willing to show you where to look, but I'm not going to do your homework for you. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=171586&find=unread That is the thread. Frankly, if you're not familiar with all the changes going on right now with regards to Logistics as a class and Logistics as gameplay on behalf of the Logistics Community I'd appreciate your not coming partway in on a lengthy conversation (check those dates) and making statements regarding accuracy, evidence or frivolity. Its counter-logocal and counter productive. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
korrah silain True Illuminate 9	Posted - 2014.11.21 23:23:00 - [86] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: korrah silain wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Umm... Do you even Immortal Clone Soul Brah? If kills don't stay dead HOW do we generate a kdr metric? Is that entire section of the statistics leaderboards a fig-a-mentation of my imagination? And I'm already Logi bonus limited when I flip suits in that my Amaarr link bonus disappears on the links I've placed. My links don't dissolve tho. My Min reptool bonus isn't applied when repping with my Gal etc etc etc. cmon dude, put down abacus thinking and get Texas Instruments at least. Your entire complaint against this is "but then I lose ALL MY UPLINKS when I switch suits to kill!!! This is dumb because: A) logis switching is the entire problem. B)this effects other suit not the logi suits (as much) because the logis have the bw to have multiple uplinks. Want to farm was/support your team then wear the suit that was intended for it. You can still kill because you have a weapon, want an av fit? Fit a swarmed onto the same suit as a variant then jump back when your mission is accomplished. Same be in same suit no problem there. As for the immortal clone sole comment that was in response to the accusation that heavies don't lose their accomplishments when they spawn, well no but they do lose their only accomplishment (killing) when their victems respawn. It really sounds like you are crying that this "Nerf" to the logis is forcing you to play a logi instead of switching. Edit: Logos "brah" do you even critical think? (Logos is not a typo of logis it is Latin for logic, one of the three cornerstones of traditional debate the other being ethos: ethical arguments, and pathos, appeals to emotion) So lets keep things Logocal and not lose sight of the problem. Equipment spam is the problem, particularly around Supply Depots. Not suit switching. Suit switching YES is HOW many spammers ply their trade HOWEVER is not the actual problem, the SPAM is. So address the SPAM and don't f with the switching! Logo enough for you? As far as my Logi play goes, I am full Logi, through and through. Invested, committed, active at the highest levels of gameplay available. And I guess its these highest levels that very few others participate in that will be hurt that others don't understand because we ALL hate the spam but only a few of us can see there are ways to address it that don't as a peripheral consequence screw other gameplay. If not, allow me to deposit a nice RL parrallel: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Um except the bandwidth limit does combat spammers because it ALSO limits the amount of equipment out period. So not only does the solution come down hard on the suit switchers, it also comes down on spammers while still giving the logis breathing room. Where is the problem? You have yet to show (besides eliminating suit switching tourist logis) how this needs dedicated logis...so no...not logo enough. Because the Logistics gameplay being preserved is blobbing, but the gameplay being sacrificed is actual Combat Logistics. Instead of just solving the SPAM. BW will reduce some forms of spam, agreed, but not all. It will ,however, however eliminate all Logistical gameplay outside of BLOBS. Again, these results, spam elimination, could be achieved WITHOUT reducing all Logistics utility to simply serving the blob. And you can keep trying to frame me as a "tourist" but if you go read the Logistics Support thread all the way through and pay attention to my input there you'll see clearly I am anything but. How is this solution eliminating logistic and strategic placement? If anything it should encourage it considering your limited resources need to be use more effectively. I have seen matches where as few as 4 uplinks were deployed and allowed the team full effective tactical movement? And if you have another idea in another thread then post a link. As it stands here I am arguing for band width because it seems all the complaints I hear are incorrect, lacking evidence, or frivolous. (And I still see no evidence for your arguments...perhaps examples would help?)[/quote] Sorry bud, I'm willing to show you where to look, but I'm not going to do your homework for you. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=171586&find=unread That is the thread. Frankly, if you're not familiar with all the changes going on right now with regards to Logistics as a class and Logistics as gameplay on behalf of the Logistics Community I'd appreciate your not coming partway in on a lengthy conversation (check those dates) and making statements regarding accuracy, evidence or frivolity. Its counter-logocal and counter productive. [/quote] 1) so only logis can talk about how to balance equipment spam issues? Then as a scout can I talk about the cloak field issues? Cuz I'd like the delay gone, and eware back, on and maybe a decloak animation extension... 2) as was stated above, this isn't about fixing logis its about fixing eq spam, and yes its going to affect logis but not nearly as much as everyone else. 3) seeing as logis will still be able to put out more equipment than anyone else I fail to see how saying this isn't hurting the logis but further making them a necessity by cutting down other suits role infringements is frivolous.
Cross Atu OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3976	Posted - 2014.11.21 23:50:00 - [87] - Quote Slave of MORTE wrote: Neither seem like a great solution especially when applied to pc..how many players would have to run dedicated spawns in order for pc ..at least 1 per objective......yall enjoy that That good sir is called opportunity cost and is very much a part of tactical game play. Choosing how to invest your limited resources in a synergistic manner that best supports your plan of action is, for my 0.02 ISK, exactly what competitive game modes like PC should require of their teams and team leaders. If the choices or trade offs were easy/consequence free they would lack substance and relevance. See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.11.22 00:28:00 - [88] - Quote John Demonsbane wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: I remember this thread and the irony in your reposting seems lost on you considering it's basically 18 pages of defense of Logistics playstyle that will be eliminated with BW imposition as proposed. BW imposition that, largely, is agreed upon as not really eliminating the spam issue it's meant to address. Ever heard the phrase, "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush"? You're giving up a bird in our hand for nothing in a bush. Thats a nerf . EDIT: Oh, and handing over Athena Sentinel the victory s/he was looking for in posting that thread. So, one, how is that "largely" agreed upon, exactly? By whom.. You and the OP? As for that fool Athena, what victory? Never got what she wanted, and still won't. I can still swap at a supply depot to switch from an uplink suit to a medic suit, or even a nanohive suit, provided I don't need (not want) more than 8 pieces of EQ out, which I rarely do. This is basically the last time I'm going to respond to one of your posts on the subject of BW because it's simply not getting anywhere. Amarrian God as my witness, I honestly don't think you have the slightest clue how this system really works and what it's intended to do. I am not trolling in any way when I say that. Your comments about me not understanding the point of my own post, or this being a buff to scouts somehow, for example, simply defy logic. Bandwith is not a fcking buff to scouts, that makes exactly zero sense. It's not a major buff to logis either, but, stay with me here, thats not the purpose of it. The purpose is to limit EQ spam as much as possible while limiting the impact on dedicated logis as much as possible.* To put it another way, BANDWITH NERFS EVERYONE'S ABILITY TO DROP EQUIPMENT. IT NERFS LOGIS SUBSTANTIALLY LESS. WE ARE NOT TRYING TO TOTALLY FIX LOGIS HERE WITH THIS ONE THING AND STOP THERE. The major buffs to logis are still needed, still on the table, and are not directly related to this in any way. Tell you what, give me a better proposal. Come up with an actual proposal specifically designed to reduce spam.: - Not some nebulous combination of things we've been talking about in Cross' thread. - Not buffing logis in a way unrelated to equipment. Focus man! - Not nerfing scouts in a way unrelated to equipment (your scout rage is clouding your judgement, tbh) - Not solo orbitals - Not the radius thing which, yes, is a great idea, which is why I've suggested it 83 times, but you can claim to be whatever amazing coding guru you want, if the developers of the damn game specifically say they can't do it, I'm gonna drop it and move on to something that can actually be done.\ - Not some pie in the sky idea that's not practical - and for the love of God not a blanket restriction of x number of peices of equipment on everyone. Anyone who thinks that's a better solution from the logi perspective should be immediately sterilized as for the good of the human race they should not be allowed to pass on their DNA. Do not mention any of those things, give me a better way to do it that's feasible, will work, and have much less effect on people in logi suits than everyone else. Do that and I'll stop supporting BW and promote yours. lol, you might want to go read that thread again bruv, it is literally 18 pages of old pro's (damn I miss DS10) saying suit swapping on the logi side is A-OK. Logibro I believe is in there too. You've already seen my input on getting Logistics (and opportunity spam) away from tourists in the support thread, but to recap -Logistics becomes Dropsuit Command level 5 for entry. If we really want to seal the deal on only allowing the serious in, make Electronics and Engineering level 3 entry requirements as well. -Enact equipment timers. That link/hive cluster doesn't actually get used within say, 7 minutes of placement its capacitor dies. -Enact equipment placement boundaries. I understand you accept the line coders can't make it happen but I don't. Especially since the most recent gamecode doesn't allow me to call in a vehicle within clear and open areas of the cities when before I could. Its a glitch, I understand. Find that glitch, fix it for vehicles and then apply it to depots. -Scouts lose the second equipment slot. You know where I'm at with that, its been my original idea for balance for a while but been poopoo'd, maybe now in light of all the rest of the hubbub you'll recognize that if anyone should have a limit on deploying equipment it shouldn't be a frame whose main purpose is deployment and use of equipment. -Suit switching limits applied to depots. Sorry bro, there's only so many times you can switch here within x amount of time . Come back later. -Overhead map a total clusterfuck of aquamarine interfering with your ability to see where spawns are vs. hives or consoles? Change the damn colors. -Oh and Cross' idea about revamping equipment use quantities vs carried. One out of health and out of ammo merc running past that depot would use most everything there. -Solo OBs, EMP configured that are cheap, easy and permeate the walls. You see a pile of gear, nuke it. For 100 WP. Is that 5? 7? Literally pulled from my immediate memory of these things, and all will address spam just as much as the current with none (maybe one or two) having the sort of overarching ill-effects BW will. And a word about scouts: I am NOT a scout-hater. I am an IMBALANCE hater. scouts are imbalanced and have been for a looong time. Too long, in fact. And if they're fixed in place stat-wise, never to be adjusted again then serious buffs need to be afforded to ALL other classes to counter the imbalance. And they need to STOP their interference of those processes. I said it then and I'll say it again It IS DISGUSTING that they would do so. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.11.22 00:31:00 - [89] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: Slave of MORTE wrote: Neither seem like a great solution especially when applied to pc..how many players would have to run dedicated spawns in order for pc ..at least 1 per objective......yall enjoy that That good sir is called opportunity cost and is very much a part of tactical game play. Choosing how to invest your limited resources in a synergistic manner that best supports your plan of action is, for my 0.02 ISK, exactly what competitive game modes like PC should require of their teams and team leaders. If the choices or trade offs were easy/consequence free they would lack substance and relevance. Top level PC is full of everybody running, placing and destroying links. Mainly since scouts are spammed (HARD) and scout-logi ability is allowed to be a "thing". Oh, and it'll just be worse if the equipment profile stuff happens since scouts will see all, and can run/jump into areas inaccessible to everyone else, some corners OB proof included. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC General Tso's Alliance 537	Posted - 2014.11.22 00:42:00 - [90] - Quote Oh, and John? If you don't feel that responding to me is in your best interest I'm ok with that. I'll continue pointing out where you're illogical or incorrect and you can sit mute with nothing to say just like anyone else who's entirely bloated on their own opinion and has the flaws in it made readily apparent for anyone else who comes along to see. If, that's how you want to be. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.



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