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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
4154
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Posted - 2014.11.03 04:32:00 -
[1] - Quote
Do you see an issue with the ISK generation capacity in being able to triple stack faction boosters which translate to greater amounts of LP which can now be sold now for ISK? I see a pay to win argument issue here in regards to the necessity of buying the AUR market agent in order for players and corps to get more out of this ISK from LP goods sales in order to use elsewhere such as planetary conquest.
Try the new Planetary Conquest Mode!
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Banjo Robertson
Evzones
Public.Disorder.
294
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Posted - 2014.11.03 04:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
I guess it depends on the resale value of the LP store items.
The most you'd ever get back from an item is 50% of isk value, thats after buying the AUR market agent and having max level Loyaly Rank. 20% of isk value if starting with no bonuses or agent.
They said they'd be using the ISK value for AUR items you sell back, but havent said the ISK value for LP items, since these items already cost ISK ontop of LP, it might be you'd only get back the ISK value associated with the item, rather than the ISK value of the item its based on. |
Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
7254
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Posted - 2014.11.03 05:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:Do you see an issue with the ISK generation capacity in being able to triple stack faction boosters which translate to greater amounts of LP which can now be sold now for ISK? I see a pay to win argument issue here in regards to the necessity of buying the AUR market agent in order for players and corps to get more out of this ISK from LP goods sales in order to use elsewhere such as planetary conquest.
I just realized that you can sell FW assets.
At max rank, how much relative ISK could you generate I wonder....
Bullet Hell and Duct-Tape? Count me in!
FA recruits get free officer BPO's. Enlist today. Must be a scrub to enter.
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VikingKong iBUN
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
154
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Posted - 2014.11.03 05:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
Wait a minute, we're gona need to buy a "Market Agent" with AUR in order to sell stuff for ISK? |
Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
4154
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Posted - 2014.11.03 05:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
VikingKong iBUN wrote:Wait a minute, we're gona need to buy a "Market Agent" with AUR in order to sell stuff for ISK?
No, but it increases you sales rate by 15%. This is a one time purchase for AUR, but it's required in order to bring up your sell back rate to 50% of the item's ISK value in the market.
Try the new Planetary Conquest Mode!
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VikingKong iBUN
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
155
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Posted - 2014.11.03 05:55:00 -
[6] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:VikingKong iBUN wrote:Wait a minute, we're gona need to buy a "Market Agent" with AUR in order to sell stuff for ISK? No, but it increases you sales rate by 15%. This is a one time purchase for AUR, but it's required in order to bring up your sell back rate to 50% of the item's ISK value in the market.
Dafuq?! This is preposterous. This is utterly absurd and ridiculous. I see what people mean when they say Dust just turned PTW. |
Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
4154
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Posted - 2014.11.03 05:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
Banjo Robertson wrote:I guess it depends on the resale value of the LP store items.
The most you'd ever get back from an item is 50% of isk value, thats after buying the AUR market agent and having max level Loyaly Rank. 20% of isk value if starting with no bonuses or agent.
They said they'd be using the ISK value for AUR items you sell back, but havent said the ISK value for LP items, since these items already cost ISK ontop of LP, it might be you'd only get back the ISK value associated with the item, rather than the ISK value of the item its based on.
LP items show an ISK value in the SDE. For example:
Federation Duvolle Specialist Assault Rifle goes for 77,280 ISK.
Try the new Planetary Conquest Mode!
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Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
4154
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Posted - 2014.11.03 05:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
VikingKong iBUN wrote:Jadek Menaheim wrote:VikingKong iBUN wrote:Wait a minute, we're gona need to buy a "Market Agent" with AUR in order to sell stuff for ISK? No, but it increases you sales rate by 15%. This is a one time purchase for AUR, but it's required in order to bring up your sell back rate to 50% of the item's ISK value in the market. Dafuq?! This is preposterous. This is utterly absurd and ridiculous. I see what people mean when they say Dust just turned PTW.
Corps will never play pubs again...I guess there's that.
Try the new Planetary Conquest Mode!
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
9978
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Posted - 2014.11.03 06:23:00 -
[9] - Quote
A common definition of Pay-to-Win is "items of greater quality can only be bought for real money". This scenario does not violate that principle.
On the ISK generation, I believe that the community has asked for a way to make ISK losses in FW more bearable, and I think with the fact that you need to purchase the LP items first, combined with a lower than market price resell value, that this will only offset losses for the most part.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Maken Tosch
Dust University
Ivy League
10060
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Posted - 2014.11.03 06:36:00 -
[10] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:A common definition of Pay-to-Win is "items of greater quality can only be bought for real money". This scenario does not violate that principle.
On the ISK generation, I believe that the community has asked for a way to make ISK losses in FW more bearable, and I think with the fact that you need to purchase the LP items first, combined with a lower than market price resell value, that this will only offset losses for the most part.
I think what VikingKong was getting at is that the Market Agent presents a situation in which players with AUR will be the only ones who can get that advantage of 50% resell value (assuming they maxed out their Loyalty Rank as well). This presents a situation in which players with this agent will suffer less loses in terms of ISK than players without it.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
4155
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Posted - 2014.11.03 06:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
Fair enough Rattati, I could see this encouraging stronger fights. I'm looking at Cat Merc's math and with boosters, high level players are looking at LP payouts above 3000. This roughly equates to +1.2 million per match--equivalent to planetary conquest payouts.
Try the new Planetary Conquest Mode!
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Maken Tosch
Dust University
Ivy League
10061
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Posted - 2014.11.03 06:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:Fair enough Rattati, I could see this encouraging stronger fights. I'm looking at Cat Merc's math and with boosters, high level players are looking at LP payouts above 3000. This roughly equates to +1.2 million per match--equivalent to planetary conquest payouts.
Interesting. So effectively this will mean FW will be a great way to get newbies acclimated into how PC will be before they join.
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
4155
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Posted - 2014.11.03 06:42:00 -
[13] - Quote
Now add a team deploy Maken, and you have corp battles whenever you like.
Try the new Planetary Conquest Mode!
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Maken Tosch
Dust University
Ivy League
10061
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Posted - 2014.11.03 06:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:Now add a team deploy Maken, and you have corp battles whenever you like.
/dreams
On Twitter: @HilmarVeigar #greenlightlegion #dust514 players are waiting.
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
9986
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Posted - 2014.11.03 06:53:00 -
[15] - Quote
The only way to have team deploy is to have an either or system
Create 16 man squad (can only exist in FW)
Join FW queue, q-sync if you want to try and fight another specific 16 man team
If no other 16 man squad is queuing, then wait forever
Is that something someone is interested in?
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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CCP Rattati
C C P
C C P Alliance
9986
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Posted - 2014.11.03 06:54:00 -
[16] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:A common definition of Pay-to-Win is "items of greater quality can only be bought for real money". This scenario does not violate that principle.
On the ISK generation, I believe that the community has asked for a way to make ISK losses in FW more bearable, and I think with the fact that you need to purchase the LP items first, combined with a lower than market price resell value, that this will only offset losses for the most part. I think what VikingKong was getting at is that the Market Agent presents a situation in which players with AUR will be the only ones who can get that advantage of 50% resell value (assuming they maxed out their Loyalty Rank as well). This presents a situation in which players with this agent will suffer less loses in terms of ISK than players without it.
So they will make less ISK per second. Sounds like buying time.
"As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"
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Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
4156
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Posted - 2014.11.03 07:00:00 -
[17] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The only way to have team deploy is to have an either or system
Create 16 man squad (can only exist in FW)
Join FW queue, q-sync if you want to try and fight another specific 16 man team
If no other 16 man squad is queuing, then wait forever
Is that something someone is interested in?
Is there a way to create a sub section in create squad menu to 'create FW squad'?
Try the new Planetary Conquest Mode!
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MINA Longstrike
Kirjuun Heiian
1508
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Posted - 2014.11.03 07:03:00 -
[18] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The only way to have team deploy is to have an either or system
Create 16 man squad (can only exist in FW)
Join FW queue, q-sync if you want to try and fight another specific 16 man team
If no other 16 man squad is queuing, then wait forever
Is that something someone is interested in?
Honestly. No. I play a lot of facwar and it's already more than easy enough to sync if people are actually interested in doing it. I don't really want to see it become easier to just stomp the crap out of matches.
What I am interested in, is stuff along the lines of eve's fw, where you can put LP into infrastructure that does stuff like boosts earnings for everyone involved (that's what it does in eve, there's a lot of ideas for what it could do in dust - maybe say give more clones to one side or cause certain districts to have a 'target' placed on them).
Until there's a 'better' interface for facwar that allows dust players to target certain systems and spend loyalty points on infrastructure (maybe LP installations that can be deployed in matches for example), I'm not interested in team deployment.
Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian.
I have a few alts.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
VP Gaming Alliance
634
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Posted - 2014.11.03 07:22:00 -
[19] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The only way to have team deploy is to have an either or system
Create 16 man squad (can only exist in FW)
Join FW queue, q-sync if you want to try and fight another specific 16 man team
If no other 16 man squad is queuing, then wait forever
Is that something someone is interested in?
explain. would you need to field a full 16 man team, or could deploy a partial team? |
Sgt Kirk
Fatal Absolution
8212
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 07:39:00 -
[20] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The only way to have team deploy is to have an either or system
Create 16 man squad (can only exist in FW)
Join FW queue, q-sync if you want to try and fight another specific 16 man team
If no other 16 man squad is queuing, then wait forever
Is that something someone is interested in?
Sure, could we have it PC in addition to your FW only rule?
I'd also like to have it be more distinct and instead of calling it a squad call it a Patrol or something equivalent.
"Man this New Patrol Finder is so nice, I can get into Faction Warfares in no time because of it"
CCP holds the Caldari's hand so this doesn't happen again.
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Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
4158
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Posted - 2014.11.03 07:41:00 -
[21] - Quote
Sgt Kirk wrote:"Man this New Patrol Finder is so nice, I can get into Faction Warfares in no time because of it"
Nice call! 
Try the new Planetary Conquest Mode!
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Meee One
Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki
1238
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Posted - 2014.11.03 08:39:00 -
[22] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:A common definition of Pay-to-Win is "items of greater quality can only be bought for real money". This scenario does not violate that principle.
On the ISK generation, I believe that the community has asked for a way to make ISK losses in FW more bearable, and I think with the fact that you need to purchase the LP items first, combined with a lower than market price resell value, that this will only offset losses for the most part.
>AUR is bought with money
>greater quality being 15% increase to sales
>seeing as there is no ISK version it equals 0%
You yourself,with your own definition of P2W have just stated that this new mechanic is P2W.
Official Blueberry of the Forums.
Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
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Meee One
Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki
1238
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Posted - 2014.11.03 08:49:00 -
[23] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:A common definition of Pay-to-Win is "items of greater quality can only be bought for real money". This scenario does not violate that principle.
On the ISK generation, I believe that the community has asked for a way to make ISK losses in FW more bearable, and I think with the fact that you need to purchase the LP items first, combined with a lower than market price resell value, that this will only offset losses for the most part. I think what VikingKong was getting at is that the Market Agent presents a situation in which players with AUR will be the only ones who can get that advantage of 50% resell value (assuming they maxed out their Loyalty Rank as well). This presents a situation in which players with this agent will suffer less loses in terms of ISK than players without it. So they will make less ISK per second. Sounds like buying time.
Buying time would be if there were an expensive ISK version as well as a comparitively cheap AUR version.
For example:
-100-500 million ISK version
-or-
-20k AUR version
As good F2P models show,you give early access,not exclusive access to your real money spenders.
You make AUR more appealing by making it much faster than ISK,but don't punish those that use ISK.
You already have early access methods in Dust ffs:
-boosters
-AUR gear
Just do with the agent as you would with a 'neo' suit vs a regular.
Official Blueberry of the Forums.
Title given by my #1 fan Sgt Kirk.
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
14081
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Posted - 2014.11.03 09:03:00 -
[24] - Quote
Fantastic if I can't earn my FW content and prove I'm a loyalist then **** it I'm just going to buy it.
- Mantra of post 1.9 FW kiddies
GÇ£How does this all work then?GÇ¥
GÇ£Like so Choirboy.GÇ¥
- Mila to Kador, Sub Zero Club, Shoashu Sasaanko
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Cat Merc
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
12936
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Posted - 2014.11.03 09:09:00 -
[25] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:A common definition of Pay-to-Win is "items of greater quality can only be bought for real money". This scenario does not violate that principle.
On the ISK generation, I believe that the community has asked for a way to make ISK losses in FW more bearable, and I think with the fact that you need to purchase the LP items first, combined with a lower than market price resell value, that this will only offset losses for the most part.
I will do the math when I get home, but IIRC Arkena did a calculation a while ago.
If you play at level 10, at 20% resell, you make 200k~ a match.
At 50% it's 500k.
With boosters I can see this getting to a million ISK a match.
This is just from my memory, I will do the math when I'm back from school.
Feline overlord of all humans - CAT MERC
n+ÅS¦¦Gùò GÇ+GÇ+ GùòS¦¦n++
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CommanderBolt
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
2262
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Posted - 2014.11.03 09:18:00 -
[26] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The only way to have team deploy is to have an either or system
Create 16 man squad (can only exist in FW)
Join FW queue, q-sync if you want to try and fight another specific 16 man team
If no other 16 man squad is queuing, then wait forever
Is that something someone is interested in?
That sounds like an amazing idea to me!
Get those FW channels buzzing with activity trying to find 16 guys to ram into a giant squad ready to fight for their chosen faction. Sounds good to me and I like the fact that they cannot go against a team of randoms, not in a 16man squad.
"Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones"
"Guns for show, Knives for a pro"
MY LIFE FOR AIUR!
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
14081
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Posted - 2014.11.03 10:33:00 -
[27] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The only way to have team deploy is to have an either or system
Create 16 man squad (can only exist in FW)
Join FW queue, q-sync if you want to try and fight another specific 16 man team
If no other 16 man squad is queuing, then wait forever
Is that something someone is interested in?
Not in the slightest if it means organised players are forced to wait outside the Ques for another organised team that would be taking away another means of player organisation to affect what little we actually can from us.
GÇ£How does this all work then?GÇ¥
GÇ£Like so Choirboy.GÇ¥
- Mila to Kador, Sub Zero Club, Shoashu Sasaanko
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
4362
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Posted - 2014.11.03 11:05:00 -
[28] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The only way to have team deploy is to have an either or system
Create 16 man squad (can only exist in FW)
Join FW queue, q-sync if you want to try and fight another specific 16 man team
If no other 16 man squad is queuing, then wait forever
Is that something someone is interested in?
I would be more interested in a system that has 2 queues for facwar. One for teams and one for the rest of us plebes.
Bluntly IMHO all game modes should have a separate team deploy that is exempt from matchmaking rules. If you team deploy you pays your money and takes your chances.
I also believe that bringing a whole team to a fight should result in higher payouts, with winning and losing having a notable effect on the payouts.
We need to incentivise teams, corps and the cooperative aspects of DUST.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Juno Tristan
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
133
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Posted - 2014.11.03 11:40:00 -
[29] - Quote
Meee One wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:A common definition of Pay-to-Win is "items of greater quality can only be bought for real money". This scenario does not violate that principle.
On the ISK generation, I believe that the community has asked for a way to make ISK losses in FW more bearable, and I think with the fact that you need to purchase the LP items first, combined with a lower than market price resell value, that this will only offset losses for the most part. >AUR is bought with money >greater quality being 15% increase to sales >seeing as there is no ISK version it equals 0% You yourself,with your own definition of P2W have just stated that this new mechanic is P2W.
Aurum gives you an advantage, that's the incentive to use it, but its an advantage that can be overcome by playing the game
in this instance, play some pub matches in militia gear and you're back up to the same level of ISK
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Jaysyn Larrisen
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
1288
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Posted - 2014.11.03 12:22:00 -
[30] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The only way to have team deploy is to have an either or system
Create 16 man squad (can only exist in FW)
Join FW queue, q-sync if you want to try and fight another specific 16 man team
If no other 16 man squad is queuing, then wait forever
Is that something someone is interested in?
How hard would this be to implement on a trial basis. Team deploy in FW would be pretty awesome, but it's difficult to judge wait times.
I could see this working pretty well if we made sure to get into out pretty early and often to alert the bulk of the player base. I can also see some pretty interesting FW rivalries occurring....you'll start seeing a few very organized groups coalescing to do this.
I also predict that PC teams will hit this pretty hard as a practice method. It would be pretty easy to advertise "My PC team will be on from 0200-0500 tomorrow in FW...que up if you want to scrimmage".
in short...i like it. It doesn't prevent us from doing things we way we do now and gives a team oriented option.
"Endless money forms the sinews of War." - Cicero
Skype: jaysyn.larrisen
Twitter: @JaysynLarrisen
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
4363
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Posted - 2014.11.03 12:43:00 -
[31] - Quote
Make a twam queue side by side with the regular one but with no overlap between the two.
That way you can have team vs. Team without falling into team vs randoms.
And I misread rattati's post. Derp.
If you do that and put team rewards higher than solo pubstar rewards more people will team deploy.
Making team rewards > solo rewards should be a thing.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Spectral Clone
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3008
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Posted - 2014.11.03 12:49:00 -
[32] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The only way to have team deploy is to have an either or system
Create 16 man squad (can only exist in FW)
Join FW queue, q-sync if you want to try and fight another specific 16 man team
If no other 16 man squad is queuing, then wait forever
Is that something someone is interested in?
Give us the tools, we will figure the rest out...!
EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet".
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Haerr
Clone Manque
1766
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Posted - 2014.11.03 13:06:00 -
[33] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The only way to have team deploy is to have an either or system
Create 16 man squad (can only exist in FW)
Join FW queue, q-sync if you want to try and fight another specific 16 man team
If no other 16 man squad is queuing, then wait forever
Is that something someone is interested in?
Yes. +1 |
13ear
277
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Posted - 2014.11.03 13:42:00 -
[34] - Quote
Meee One wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:A common definition of Pay-to-Win is "items of greater quality can only be bought for real money". This scenario does not violate that principle.
On the ISK generation, I believe that the community has asked for a way to make ISK losses in FW more bearable, and I think with the fact that you need to purchase the LP items first, combined with a lower than market price resell value, that this will only offset losses for the most part. >AUR is bought with money >greater quality being 15% increase to sales >seeing as there is no ISK version it equals 0% You yourself,with your own definition of P2W have just stated that this new mechanic is P2W.
That's literally the dumbest thing you've ever posted, which is saying a lot.
It's not P2W due to the fact that the Market Agent isn't an in game item, those who purchase one don't gain an advantage over those who don't. It simply increases the ISK returns when selling their in game assets.
How could you possibly think players paying real money to increase the amount of ISK they have in game is P2W?
You can't possibly be that stupid.
One original thought is worth a thousand mindless quotings - Diogenes
Winner of EU Squad Cup
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Spectral Clone
Abandoned Privilege
Top Men.
3014
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Posted - 2014.11.03 14:14:00 -
[35] - Quote
Did someone consider that the LP and SP boosters cant cost as much when you can have 3 active, as when you could only have 1?
:D
CCP gon' nerf dat booster cost.
EVE: Legion, also known as: Schroedinger's Game, EVE: Limbo, or just "Not-a-game-yet".
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Cross Atu
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3692
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Posted - 2014.11.03 17:24:00 -
[36] - Quote
Spectral Clone wrote:Did someone consider that the LP and SP boosters cant cost as much when you can have 3 active, as when you could only have 1?
:D
CCP gon' nerf dat booster cost.
I have doubts that this is going to happen, I could be wrong but AFAIK "ability to use more of something" is not equal to "reduction in the value of something" if the boosters are still doing the same work, but now the option to use more than one is present, that is not a case for the cost of the booster to be lowered while the effect remains identical.
The ability to stack is already a buff to booster use, it does not however imply or require another buff to boosters (price reduction) be stacked on top of it.
See a cool idea thread? Mail me the title and I'll take a look =)
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
5148
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Posted - 2014.11.03 17:29:00 -
[37] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:The only way to have team deploy is to have an either or system
Create 16 man squad (can only exist in FW)
Join FW queue, q-sync if you want to try and fight another specific 16 man team
If no other 16 man squad is queuing, then wait forever
Is that something someone is interested in?
I'd donate both my small toes to research if you make it happen.
If you make a team building UI so that squad leaders and FCs can throw together a team without constantly asking how many in each squad, who do you have, etc, I'll throw in a big toe.
It would make it much easier to manage multiple battles in PC as well. Hell you could come out of a PC battle and just take your team straight into FW and vice versa.
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHH how much I don't want to ever have to deal with dumbass blueberries again!
I wish my avatar was Minmatar.
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
5148
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Posted - 2014.11.03 17:33:00 -
[38] - Quote
13ear wrote:Meee One wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:A common definition of Pay-to-Win is "items of greater quality can only be bought for real money". This scenario does not violate that principle.
On the ISK generation, I believe that the community has asked for a way to make ISK losses in FW more bearable, and I think with the fact that you need to purchase the LP items first, combined with a lower than market price resell value, that this will only offset losses for the most part. >AUR is bought with money >greater quality being 15% increase to sales >seeing as there is no ISK version it equals 0% You yourself,with your own definition of P2W have just stated that this new mechanic is P2W. That's literally the dumbest thing you've ever posted, which is saying a lot. It's not P2W due to the fact that the Market Agent isn't an in game item, those who purchase one don't gain an advantage over those who don't. It simply increases the ISK returns when selling their in game assets. How could you think that players paying real money to increase the amount of ISK they have in game is P2W? You can't possibly be that stupid. Edit: After reading a number of your threads, I realize now that you are indeed that stupid.
They have apparently stopped teaching economics in schools. These youngsters think that a company would make a free to play game without microtransactions and expect them to succeed.
I wish my avatar was Minmatar.
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CommanderBolt
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
2267
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Posted - 2014.11.03 17:37:00 -
[39] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:13ear wrote:Meee One wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:A common definition of Pay-to-Win is "items of greater quality can only be bought for real money". This scenario does not violate that principle.
On the ISK generation, I believe that the community has asked for a way to make ISK losses in FW more bearable, and I think with the fact that you need to purchase the LP items first, combined with a lower than market price resell value, that this will only offset losses for the most part. >AUR is bought with money >greater quality being 15% increase to sales >seeing as there is no ISK version it equals 0% You yourself,with your own definition of P2W have just stated that this new mechanic is P2W. That's literally the dumbest thing you've ever posted, which is saying a lot. It's not P2W due to the fact that the Market Agent isn't an in game item, those who purchase one don't gain an advantage over those who don't. It simply increases the ISK returns when selling their in game assets. How could you think that players paying real money to increase the amount of ISK they have in game is P2W? You can't possibly be that stupid. Edit: After reading a number of your threads, I realize now that you are indeed that stupid. They have apparently stopped teaching economics in schools. These youngsters think that a company would make a free to play game without microtransactions and expect them to succeed.
It's not even that guys, its just people feeling overly entitled. If people can't accept what CCP proposes than that is their problem. I for one thing their business model is quite tame for a F2P game. There are a lot of blood sucking demon devs out there.......
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
4377
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Posted - 2014.11.03 17:38:00 -
[40] - Quote
When CCP requires you to pay 20.00 per month to earn ISK or else be stuck forever in starter suits DUST becomes pay to win.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Meee One
Amakakeru-Ryu-no-Hirameki
1244
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Posted - 2014.11.03 18:15:00 -
[41] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Fantastic if I can't earn my FW content and prove I'm a loyalist then **** it I'm just going to buy it.
- Mantra of post 1.9 FW kiddies
Boosters for FW are ok because it allows early access,ISK returns,and the most important thing is it's temporary.
Meaning you have to keep getting boosters to keep the effect.
This is how the agent is broken it's permanent.
Everything permanent that CCP has offered so far has been low level,but this would be high level.
But,if the agent worked like boosters...
That wouldn't be as broken.
It's the perminance that bothers me.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3380
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Posted - 2014.11.03 18:19:00 -
[42] - Quote
Meee One wrote:True Adamance wrote:Fantastic if I can't earn my FW content and prove I'm a loyalist then **** it I'm just going to buy it.
- Mantra of post 1.9 FW kiddies Boosters for FW are ok because it allows early access,ISK returns,and the most important thing is it's temporary. Meaning you have to keep getting boosters to keep the effect. This is how the agent is broken it's permanent. Everything permanent that CCP has offered so far has been low level,but this would be high level. But,if the agent worked like boosters... That wouldn't be as broken. It's the perminance that bothers me.
To be fair BPOs are also permanent and prevent ISK loss, and thus ISK gains go up.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
4396
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Posted - 2014.11.03 19:18:00 -
[43] - Quote
And I can use BPOs to run fits for free forever. Does that make them pay to win?
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Thor Odinson42
Molon Labe.
General Tso's Alliance
5152
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Posted - 2014.11.03 19:32:00 -
[44] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:And I can use BPOs to run fits for free forever. Does that make them pay to win?
In the minds of dumb people, yes
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
4402
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Posted - 2014.11.03 19:48:00 -
[45] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:And I can use BPOs to run fits for free forever. Does that make them pay to win? In the minds of dumb people, yes
Thor, be nice and let people prove that they're stupid WITHOUT help.
Should only take minimal baiting and a smattering of logic.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3381
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Posted - 2014.11.03 19:51:00 -
[46] - Quote
One could even argue that a BPO Suits are more valuable than the 15% Market Agent, since every time you die in a BPO suit you're effectively making the amount you would have lost had you purchased that item with ISK. That being said, a BPO offers a 100% return on potential losses that the BPO avoids, and if we assume you die 5-10 times a math in a BPO suit, the savings add up quickly.
Market Agent however is only an additional 15% on basically salvage, since that's the only stuff you're going to want to sell. So in a given pub you're typically going to pick up 0-3 pieces of salvage, and get an additional 15% return on their value...opposed to a 100% return on every death in a BPO suit. The amount extra you make per match with that Agent from selling salvage is so inconsequentially small that it hardly constitutes "ERMERGERD P2W!". Faction Warfare is marginally more valuable due to a higher drop rate of salvage, but again, it's still probably less than what you save with a BPO.
I can really only see significant gains with an Agent in PC, where you're getting substantial amounts of salvage, and typically it's top tiered so its value is rather high. I'd actually tell someone who is newer to not even bother with the Agent and instead purchase a BPO suit because it's going to make them more money in the long run. The agent is probably more worth it if you're in PC a lot and expect to pick up a ton of salvage.
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
4168
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Posted - 2014.11.03 22:05:00 -
[47] - Quote
Update: Alright, we've established this isn't particularly pay to win, but increasing ISK returns through booster use should cause concern for teams that coordinate opposing FW deploys in order to boost ISK via ending matches fast with suicide cloning in starter suits. Unlike PC there is no initial price investment to start a match (i.e. clone packs). ISK boosting cannot currently be achieved due to LP items previously being unable to be sold. Now with NPC vendor and triple faction booster stacking abilities, players may be able to coordinate large farming efforts to generate large amounts of ISK with relative ease.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
4418
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Posted - 2014.11.03 22:07:00 -
[48] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:Update: Alright, we've established this isn't particularly pay to win, but increasing ISK returns through booster use should cause concern for teams that coordinate opposing FW deploys in order to boost ISK via ending matches fast with suicide cloning in starter suits. Unlike PC there is no initial price investment to start a match (i.e. clone packs). ISK boosting cannot currently be achieved due to LP items previously being unable to be sold. Now with NPC vendor and triple faction booster stacking abilities, players may be able to coordinate large farming efforts to generate large amounts of ISK with relative ease.
the only way to prevent that is to lock in a suicide count that kicks you. same as the damage counter that kicks me out when SOME DUMBASS BLUEBERRY rams my Jihad Jeep with his tank.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
4168
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Posted - 2014.11.03 22:12:00 -
[49] - Quote
A suicide or player fell and died limit check is only going to get you so far. Teams that coordinate deploys can just as easily meat grind each other by placing uplinks next to each other.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
4420
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Posted - 2014.11.03 22:17:00 -
[50] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:A suicide or player fell and died limit check is only going to get you so far. Teams that coordinate deploys can just as easily meat grind each other by placing uplinks next to each other.
You can't fix every exploit. It's impossible. Honestly there should be a threshold where the game says "screw it" and allows you to blaze on team-sabotaging blue dots.
But nope.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
4168
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Posted - 2014.11.03 22:22:00 -
[51] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Jadek Menaheim wrote:A suicide or player fell and died limit check is only going to get you so far. Teams that coordinate deploys can just as easily meat grind each other by placing uplinks next to each other. You can't fix every exploit. It's impossible. Honestly there should be a threshold where the game says "screw it" and allows you to blaze on team-sabotaging blue dots. But nope.
Proto gear will be more fun to run away. But don't tell Viktor about any of this. I want the extent of ISK inflation post 1.9 to be a real surprise for him in his Templar Code business. 
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Pokey Dravon
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Posted - 2014.11.03 22:23:00 -
[52] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:Update: Alright, we've established this isn't particularly pay to win, but increasing ISK returns through booster use should cause concern for teams that coordinate opposing FW deploys in order to boost ISK via ending matches fast with suicide cloning in starter suits. Unlike PC there is no initial price investment to start a match (i.e. clone packs). ISK boosting cannot currently be achieved due to LP items previously being unable to be sold. Now with NPC vendor and triple faction booster stacking abilities, players may be able to coordinate large farming efforts to generate large amounts of ISK with relative ease.
At the same time why would you farm LP with this method just to sell it to buy something with ISK? Granted the LP store has many holes in it in terms of what you can buy, but its also arguable that the Items you buy with LP are better than the items you buy with ISK. So...sure you can farm LP, then sell it for half its value to buy the ISK version of the thing you just sold? I think in this case the Vendor isn't the issue, but more so the concern about gaining large amounts of LP very quickly.
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Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
6888
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Posted - 2014.11.03 22:25:00 -
[53] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:A common definition of Pay-to-Win is "items of greater quality can only be bought for real money". This scenario does not violate that principle.
On the ISK generation, I believe that the community has asked for a way to make ISK losses in FW more bearable, and I think with the fact that you need to purchase the LP items first, combined with a lower than market price resell value, that this will only offset losses for the most part. I think what VikingKong was getting at is that the Market Agent presents a situation in which players with AUR will be the only ones who can get that advantage of 50% resell value (assuming they maxed out their Loyalty Rank as well). This presents a situation in which players with this agent will suffer less loses in terms of ISK than players without it. So they will make less ISK per second. Sounds like buying time.
Which is, by your very definition, Pay-to-Win.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
4422
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Posted - 2014.11.03 22:30:00 -
[54] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:A common definition of Pay-to-Win is "items of greater quality can only be bought for real money". This scenario does not violate that principle.
On the ISK generation, I believe that the community has asked for a way to make ISK losses in FW more bearable, and I think with the fact that you need to purchase the LP items first, combined with a lower than market price resell value, that this will only offset losses for the most part. I think what VikingKong was getting at is that the Market Agent presents a situation in which players with AUR will be the only ones who can get that advantage of 50% resell value (assuming they maxed out their Loyalty Rank as well). This presents a situation in which players with this agent will suffer less loses in terms of ISK than players without it. So they will make less ISK per second. Sounds like buying time. Which is, by your very definition, Pay-to-Win. EDIT: This isn't like Eve's Plex system where I give CCP money for an in-game card that I can then sell to another player and receive ISK. ISK is being generated from thin air at a rate higher for a player who pays as opposed to a player who doesn't.
Really reaching up your ass to justify this as pay to win.
Until ISK cannot buy items of similar quality to Aurum for in-gameplay effect it is not pay to win. In all cases aurum only accelerates the availability of items. aurum only accelerates the availability of more ISk. If you were required to buy the agent for aurum in order to earn ISK then it would be pay to win.
saving time is not pay to win. Nice try.
When CCP puts officer weapons/dropsuits/modules up for aurum (and not for ISK/LP) THEN we will have achieved pay to win
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
4168
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Posted - 2014.11.03 22:35:00 -
[55] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Jadek Menaheim wrote:Update: Alright, we've established this isn't particularly pay to win, but increasing ISK returns through booster use should cause concern for teams that coordinate opposing FW deploys in order to boost ISK via ending matches fast with suicide cloning in starter suits. Unlike PC there is no initial price investment to start a match (i.e. clone packs). ISK boosting cannot currently be achieved due to LP items previously being unable to be sold. Now with NPC vendor and triple faction booster stacking abilities, players may be able to coordinate large farming efforts to generate large amounts of ISK with relative ease. At the same time why would you farm LP with this method just to sell it to buy something with ISK? Granted the LP store has many holes in it in terms of what you can buy, but its also arguable that the Items you buy with LP are better than the items you buy with ISK. So...sure you can farm LP, then sell it for half its value to buy the ISK version of the thing you just sold? I think in this case the Vendor isn't the issue, but more so the concern about gaining large amounts of LP very quickly.
Going by the current math, players with high FW levels are going to earn a minimum 600k every match after they sell their goods--this applies to all players on both teams as LP payouts don't scale with player contribution. If a corp wanted to gain ISK for whatever purpose they could stick 32 players in a match and gain about 20 million ISK for the corp each match. This ability to create ISK out of thin air so quickly really devalues it and the impact of resource scarcity.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3384
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Posted - 2014.11.03 22:37:00 -
[56] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:
EDIT: This isn't like Eve's Plex system where I give CCP money for an in-game card that I can then sell to another player and receive ISK. ISK is being generated from thin air at a rate higher for a player who pays as opposed to a player who doesn't.
But in that closed system it's the same effect. If Dust actually had a player market where inflation was a factor, then yes, making ISK out of thin air would be bad. But in a system where items are generated by the NPC and prices are locked, inflation is far less of a factor. So if you take it as a closed system, the person who buys the PLEX can make ISK with basically zero effort, it doesn't matter where the money comes from in a close system. He has purchased ISK with real world cash, which is something that the other player cannot do unless he also purchases a PLEX and sells it. If someone buys AUR, they can make ISK with basically zero effort. Buying ISK and AUR are effectively the same.
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3384
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Posted - 2014.11.03 22:40:00 -
[57] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Jadek Menaheim wrote:Update: Alright, we've established this isn't particularly pay to win, but increasing ISK returns through booster use should cause concern for teams that coordinate opposing FW deploys in order to boost ISK via ending matches fast with suicide cloning in starter suits. Unlike PC there is no initial price investment to start a match (i.e. clone packs). ISK boosting cannot currently be achieved due to LP items previously being unable to be sold. Now with NPC vendor and triple faction booster stacking abilities, players may be able to coordinate large farming efforts to generate large amounts of ISK with relative ease. At the same time why would you farm LP with this method just to sell it to buy something with ISK? Granted the LP store has many holes in it in terms of what you can buy, but its also arguable that the Items you buy with LP are better than the items you buy with ISK. So...sure you can farm LP, then sell it for half its value to buy the ISK version of the thing you just sold? I think in this case the Vendor isn't the issue, but more so the concern about gaining large amounts of LP very quickly. Going by the current math, players with high FW levels are going to earn a minimum 600k every match after they sell their goods--this applies to all players on both teams as LP payouts don't scale with player contribution. If a corp wanted to gain ISK for whatever purpose they could stick 32 players in a match and gain about 20 million ISK for the corp each match. This ability to create ISK out of thin air so quickly really devalues it and the impact of resource scarcity.
True but why would you sell it if you can just use the items you buy with the LP? I mean you say 'whatever reason' but the only thing ISK is good for is either buying suits/weapons or launching PC attacks. The first doesnt make sense as I outline before because its more beneficial to just keep the items you buy with LP. In the second, sure you can launch an attack, but you still need suits and weapons to fight the attack, which circles back to the first point of.....just use the LP to buy the suits then.
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
4168
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Posted - 2014.11.03 22:40:00 -
[58] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:EDIT: This isn't like Eve's Plex system where I give CCP money for an in-game card that I can then sell to another player and receive ISK. ISK is being generated from thin air at a rate higher for a player who pays as opposed to a player who doesn't.
Yes, tampering with resource scarcity is the important thing here. In EVE, the devs have a better control over the ISK faucet with how much ISK is awarded from NPC missions and other activities.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
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3384
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Posted - 2014.11.03 22:44:00 -
[59] - Quote
For the record I'm not really a fan of the triple stacking boosters for FW for the purpose of it providing too much LP gain. I just don't think the LP to ISK conversion is problematic because it's not particularly efficient.
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
4168
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Posted - 2014.11.03 22:47:00 -
[60] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:True but why would you sell it if you can just use the items you buy with the LP? I mean you say 'whatever reason' but the only thing ISK is good for is either buying suits/weapons or launching PC attacks. The first doesnt make sense as I outline before because its more beneficial to just keep the items you buy with LP. In the second, sure you can launch an attack, but you still need suits and weapons to fight the attack, which circles back to the first point of.....just use the LP to buy the suits then.
A lot of game mechanics seems borked by this diminished nature of resource scarcity. It's the ISK generating potential over pubs and PC via farmers that seems problematic. Who says the same people farming have to be the A team that fights your PC battles?
Try the new Planetary Conquest Mode!
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Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
4168
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Posted - 2014.11.03 22:49:00 -
[61] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:For the record I'm not really a fan of the triple stacking boosters for FW for the purpose of it providing too much LP gain. I just don't think the LP to ISK conversion is problematic because it's not particularly efficient.
It'll be much more cost efficient that buying AUR items directly to generate ISK. That fact hurts CCP's bottom line.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3384
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Posted - 2014.11.03 22:51:00 -
[62] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:True but why would you sell it if you can just use the items you buy with the LP? I mean you say 'whatever reason' but the only thing ISK is good for is either buying suits/weapons or launching PC attacks. The first doesnt make sense as I outline before because its more beneficial to just keep the items you buy with LP. In the second, sure you can launch an attack, but you still need suits and weapons to fight the attack, which circles back to the first point of.....just use the LP to buy the suits then. A lot of game mechanics seems borked by this diminished nature of resource scarcity. It's the ISK generating potential over pubs and PC via farmers that seems problematic. Who says the same people farming have to be the A team that fights your PC battles?
I suppose that's a fair point in that ISK is more liquid than LP or assets.
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
6890
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 22:51:00 -
[63] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:
Really reaching up your ass to justify this as pay to win.
Until ISK cannot buy items of similar quality to Aurum for in-gameplay effect it is not pay to win. In all cases aurum only accelerates the availability of items. aurum only accelerates the availability of more ISk. If you were required to buy the agent for aurum in order to earn ISK then it would be pay to win.
saving time is not pay to win. Nice try.
When CCP puts officer weapons/dropsuits/modules up for aurum (and not for ISK/LP) THEN we will have achieved pay to win
It's a premium available only to players that provide the expendable income to receive a permanent in-game bonus that non-paying players cannot receive. SP was one thing; I was against Boosters (especially Omega Boosters) until I sat down and thought about the impact they really have on a Level 5 maximum skill system like we have... But ISK is a game-changer.
If this isn't a problem then why the hell did we nyx PC income through clone generation? So by adding in this "if you pay, you'll get more ISK when you sell stuff" we're basically admitting that the ISK generation was never the problem to begin with and this is a service that is -ONLY- available to players who shell out liquid cash to obtain.
And I'll continue my counter-argument to your rude ass with Pokey's quote:
Pokey Dravon wrote:
But in that closed system it's the same effect. If Dust actually had a player market where inflation was a factor, then yes, making ISK out of thin air would be bad. But in a system where items are generated by the NPC and prices are locked, inflation is far less of a factor. So if you take it as a closed system, the person who buys the PLEX can make ISK with basically zero effort, it doesn't matter where the money comes from in a close system. He has purchased ISK with real world cash, which is something that the other player cannot do unless he also purchases a PLEX and sells it. If someone buys AUR, they can make ISK with basically zero effort. Buying ISK and AUR are effectively the same.
It's not -QUITE- a closed system. Dust 514 doesn't have an in-game player economy but Eve Online -does- and as long as FW and PC are connected to Eve Online, I have an issue with this. It's basically allowing players who pay to actively interfere with the game's economic balance by way of a premium (multiple, in Dust 514) and while it's not as direct as "I'm spending real money to cover my losses in Eve Online" it might as well be due to the far-reaching/long-term effects.
A player buys this agent, spends Aurum on BPOs, etc; he no longer has to pay for low-level losses and makes a profit on any items he sells; more so then non-paying players. He then goes and spends the majority of his time in FW, which has an active effect on Eve Online's FW system through territorial control using ISK that he saved through BPO's in Public Matches and increased gains from selling to the agent... Therefore, affecting Eve's player economy by spending -actual money- and attaining more in-game currency than someone who hadn't.
See my issue now?
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3385
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Posted - 2014.11.03 23:01:00 -
[64] - Quote
Also a fair point in that it's not perfectly closed, but to that I ask....to what degree does this actually affect things? I guess I find it interesting that people are very up in arms about the Agent, yet so few were upset about the reintroduction of BPOs, which I feel have a MUCH larger effect on ISK generation than the Agent does.
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
6891
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 23:04:00 -
[65] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:
Also a fair point in that it's not perfectly closed, but to that I ask....to what degree does this actually affect things? I guess I find it interesting that people are very up in arms about the Agent, yet so few were upset about the reintroduction of BPOs, which I feel have a MUCH larger effect on ISK generation than the Agent does.
I've always been up in arms about BPO's being anything but Vanity items. Thing is, I learned my lesson trying to convince people because Dusters don't give a **** about Eve's economy; they don't notice the effects they have on it.
EDIT: I mean, don't get me wrong, they're available so I'll buy/use them as much as the next guy... I don't like it though.
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Pokey Dravon
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3385
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Posted - 2014.11.03 23:06:00 -
[66] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
Also a fair point in that it's not perfectly closed, but to that I ask....to what degree does this actually affect things? I guess I find it interesting that people are very up in arms about the Agent, yet so few were upset about the reintroduction of BPOs, which I feel have a MUCH larger effect on ISK generation than the Agent does.
I've always been up in arms about BPO's being anything but Vanity items. Thing is, I learned my lesson trying to convince people because Dusters don't give a **** about Eve's economy; they don't notice the effects they have on it.
Oh I know you have, but public outcry in general is much greater for the Agent but not so much over BPOs. It's just interesting how people perceive things even though their effects are the same.
Here's a thought...what if LP items could be sold but not for ISK. Instead they had the same conversion rate (20-50%) but could be 'traded' for other faction's LP? This keeps the LP in the FW asset cycle but stills allows the purchase of LP from other stores via conversion?
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
4168
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Posted - 2014.11.03 23:08:00 -
[67] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:
Also a fair point in that it's not perfectly closed, but to that I ask....to what degree does this actually affect things? I guess I find it interesting that people are very up in arms about the Agent, yet so few were upset about the reintroduction of BPOs, which I feel have a MUCH larger effect on ISK generation than the Agent does.
It goes along with the idea the Leither brought up in the podcast that the introduction of these things now decreases the potential of a meaningful EVE integration down the line. It may also signify the higher likelihood of an asset reset down the line in Legion as caution is thrown to the wind now.
Try the new Planetary Conquest Mode!
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
4423
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 23:08:00 -
[68] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
Also a fair point in that it's not perfectly closed, but to that I ask....to what degree does this actually affect things? I guess I find it interesting that people are very up in arms about the Agent, yet so few were upset about the reintroduction of BPOs, which I feel have a MUCH larger effect on ISK generation than the Agent does.
I've always been up in arms about BPO's being anything but Vanity items. Thing is, I learned my lesson trying to convince people because Dusters don't give a **** about Eve's economy; they don't notice the effects they have on it. EDIT: I mean, don't get me wrong, they're available so I'll buy/use them as much as the next guy... I don't like it though.
If every DUST ISK got dropped into EVE's economy TODAY, and I mean EVERY SINGLE ISK all at the same moment.
We'd notice a minor economic bump that settled out back to normal within three hours.
I don't think you comprehend how little economic power DUST players have compared to even a twenty-day-old EVE newbie running the Level 2-3 ISK printer.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
4168
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Posted - 2014.11.03 23:09:00 -
[69] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
Also a fair point in that it's not perfectly closed, but to that I ask....to what degree does this actually affect things? I guess I find it interesting that people are very up in arms about the Agent, yet so few were upset about the reintroduction of BPOs, which I feel have a MUCH larger effect on ISK generation than the Agent does.
I've always been up in arms about BPO's being anything but Vanity items. Thing is, I learned my lesson trying to convince people because Dusters don't give a **** about Eve's economy; they don't notice the effects they have on it. Oh I know you have, but public outcry in general is much greater for the Agent but not so much over BPOs. It's just interesting how people perceive things even though their effects are the same. Here's a thought...what if LP items could be sold but not for ISK. Instead they had the same conversion rate (20-50%) but could be 'traded' for other faction's LP? This keeps the LP in the FW asset cycle but stills allows the purchase of LP from other stores via conversion?
I'm on board with that suggestion.
Try the new Planetary Conquest Mode!
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Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
4168
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 23:11:00 -
[70] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:If every DUST ISK got dropped into EVE's economy TODAY, and I mean EVERY SINGLE ISK all at the same moment.
We'd notice a minor economic bump that settled out back to normal within three hours.
I don't think you comprehend how little economic power DUST players have compared to even a twenty-day-old EVE newbie running the Level 2-3 ISK printer.
Oh: If you have 2 billion in your wallet you can afford to buy my fitted Kronos. One of thirty ships I have on one character.
Okay, that's a good point. Under the 1.9 changes $200 of AUR purchases would net you something like 500m ISK in Dust, whereas $20 would get you an Eve Plex that sells for 700m ISK. We wouldn't break EVE, but Eve would break Dust. 
Try the new Planetary Conquest Mode!
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3386
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Posted - 2014.11.03 23:13:00 -
[71] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
Also a fair point in that it's not perfectly closed, but to that I ask....to what degree does this actually affect things? I guess I find it interesting that people are very up in arms about the Agent, yet so few were upset about the reintroduction of BPOs, which I feel have a MUCH larger effect on ISK generation than the Agent does.
It goes along with the idea the Leither brought up in the podcast that the introduction of these things now decreases the potential of a meaningful EVE integration down the line. It may also signify the higher likelihood of an asset reset down the line in Legion as caution is thrown to the wind now.
I've always felt that assets will be wipe upon Legion conversion, and honestly I think after the PC ISK faucet, that already had to happen, even before 1.9
SP, BPOs, ect....yeah those need to transfer, but dispoable assets and ISK/LP? I think we passed the point of where transfering those would be appropriate long ago.
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
6891
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 23:13:00 -
[72] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
Also a fair point in that it's not perfectly closed, but to that I ask....to what degree does this actually affect things? I guess I find it interesting that people are very up in arms about the Agent, yet so few were upset about the reintroduction of BPOs, which I feel have a MUCH larger effect on ISK generation than the Agent does.
I've always been up in arms about BPO's being anything but Vanity items. Thing is, I learned my lesson trying to convince people because Dusters don't give a **** about Eve's economy; they don't notice the effects they have on it. Oh I know you have, but public outcry in general is much greater for the Agent but not so much over BPOs. It's just interesting how people perceive things even though their effects are the same. Here's a thought...what if LP items could be sold but not for ISK. Instead they had the same conversion rate (20-50%) but could be 'traded' for other faction's LP? This keeps the LP in the FW asset cycle but stills allows the purchase of LP from other stores via conversion?
Problem is that there are items missing from the FW stores. If those items were introduced and parity was established (I think it's silly that I can't get damage mods from Gal FW Store) or if ISK was given out as well; then I -might- be down for it.
Breakin Stuff wrote:
If every DUST ISK got dropped into EVE's economy TODAY, and I mean EVERY SINGLE ISK all at the same moment.
We'd notice a minor economic bump that settled out back to normal within three hours.
I don't think you comprehend how little economic power DUST players have compared to even a twenty-day-old EVE newbie running the Level 2-3 ISK printer.
Oh: If you have 2 billion in your wallet you can afford to buy my fitted Kronos. One of thirty ships I have on one character.
Yeah, Breakin, we get it - you're an Eve Player. Coincidentally, I am too, been playing for seven years.
And FW territory control in Dust 514 has a -major- impact on FW in Eve Online. It's not about how much Dusters have in their wallet; try to think outside of your little box while you're being contradictory and conceited.
EDIT: By the way did you know PC territories gives POS bonuses in Molden Heath? Just in case you weren't aware, I know a lot of Eve Players don't bother to take advantage of that what with Low Sec being in a perpetual bad state.
Important
Legion Transparency
Post Lv5
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3388
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 23:24:00 -
[73] - Quote
Well yeah Aeon, the lack of a complete LP store is extremely problematic. I know its a big workload, but especially with 1.9, we need it more than ever.
I would quote EVE (And forgive me if I"m totally off base here) but I seem to recall that doing Incursions earned you CONCORD LP, which can be then used to 'purchase' LP from any faction you want. So in this case you would sell your LP items for CONCORD (or whatever neutral party) LP which could then be use to 'purchase' from the faction of your choice.
EDIT:
Quote:EDIT: By the way did you know PC territories gives POS bonuses in Molden Heath? Just in case you weren't aware, I know a lot of Eve Players don't bother to take advantage of that what with Low Sec being in a perpetual bad state.
True, but I think only one planet in Skarkon has a moon that is even worth anything in the entire region, and the owners aren't even using the proper SI to take advantage of it Q_Q
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
14103
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 23:30:00 -
[74] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Well yeah Aeon, the lack of a complete LP store is extremely problematic. I know its a big workload, but especially with 1.9, we need it more than ever. I would quote EVE (And forgive me if I"m totally off base here) but I seem to recall that doing Incursions earned you CONCORD LP, which can be then used to 'purchase' LP from any faction you want. So in this case you would sell your LP items for CONCORD (or whatever neutral party) LP which could then be use to 'purchase' from the faction of your choice. EDIT: Quote:EDIT: By the way did you know PC territories gives POS bonuses in Molden Heath? Just in case you weren't aware, I know a lot of Eve Players don't bother to take advantage of that what with Low Sec being in a perpetual bad state. True, but I think only one planet in Skarkon has a moon that is even worth anything in the entire region, and the owners aren't even using the proper SI to take advantage of it Q_Q
Hell would you really want to live next to those pirates from Calamitous Intent?
GÇ£How does this all work then?GÇ¥
GÇ£Like so Choirboy.GÇ¥
- Mila to Kador, Sub Zero Club, Shoashu Sasaanko
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Jadek Menaheim
Xer Cloud Consortium
4168
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 23:30:00 -
[75] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Well yeah Aeon, the lack of a complete LP store is extremely problematic. I know its a big workload, but especially with 1.9, we need it more than ever.
I would quote EVE (And forgive me if I"m totally off base here) but I seem to recall that doing Incursions earned you CONCORD LP, which can be then used to 'purchase' LP from any faction you want. So in this case you would sell your LP items for CONCORD (or whatever neutral party) LP which could then be use to 'purchase' from the faction of your choice.
I like that. It would be more meaningful if you were penalized more strongly for switching factions, while Concord LP would still allow you to buys some necessary items from competing factions.
Try the new Planetary Conquest Mode!
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
4425
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 23:47:00 -
[76] - Quote
maybe a more constructive thing to push on would be to make DUST FW less of a schizoid human random number generator and allow EVE pilots to direct mercs at needed support hotspots.
Just a thought.
That would have a more positive effect than any ranting about a 15% ISK agent.
EVE Online is what you get when engineers attempt to create "fun" without consulting someone who comprehends the word.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3389
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 23:50:00 -
[77] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Well yeah Aeon, the lack of a complete LP store is extremely problematic. I know its a big workload, but especially with 1.9, we need it more than ever. I would quote EVE (And forgive me if I"m totally off base here) but I seem to recall that doing Incursions earned you CONCORD LP, which can be then used to 'purchase' LP from any faction you want. So in this case you would sell your LP items for CONCORD (or whatever neutral party) LP which could then be use to 'purchase' from the faction of your choice. EDIT: Quote:EDIT: By the way did you know PC territories gives POS bonuses in Molden Heath? Just in case you weren't aware, I know a lot of Eve Players don't bother to take advantage of that what with Low Sec being in a perpetual bad state. True, but I think only one planet in Skarkon has a moon that is even worth anything in the entire region, and the owners aren't even using the proper SI to take advantage of it Q_Q Hell would you really want to live next to those pirates from Calamitous Intent?
Fun Fact: OSG was the original owners of Skarkon when Uprising launched. Held onto it for a fair while too. Nice place too, clean air, nice schools for the kids, really great HOA too. But yeah the neighborhoods around there? *shudders*
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
14105
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 23:50:00 -
[78] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:maybe a more constructive thing to push on would be to make DUST FW less of a schizoid human random number generator and allow EVE pilots to direct mercs at needed support hotspots.
Just a thought.
That would have a more positive effect than any ranting about a 15% ISK agent.
Actually being able to align with the Alliances Primary Plexing Targets and respond to enemy plexers by bumping up the VP they need to take a system?
Why sir I might just have a bubbly fit!
GÇ£How does this all work then?GÇ¥
GÇ£Like so Choirboy.GÇ¥
- Mila to Kador, Sub Zero Club, Shoashu Sasaanko
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3389
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 23:51:00 -
[79] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:maybe a more constructive thing to push on would be to make DUST FW less of a schizoid human random number generator and allow EVE pilots to direct mercs at needed support hotspots.
Just a thought.
That would have a more positive effect than any ranting about a 15% ISK agent.
Give EVE players the ability to spend their LP to forcefully start a battle at a specific location 
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
14105
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 23:54:00 -
[80] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:maybe a more constructive thing to push on would be to make DUST FW less of a schizoid human random number generator and allow EVE pilots to direct mercs at needed support hotspots.
Just a thought.
That would have a more positive effect than any ranting about a 15% ISK agent.
Give EVE players the ability to spend their LP to forcefully start a battle at a specific location
They shouldn't have to do that.
This sort of functionality needs to be in the hands of Dust players.
We need to be able to set up our own battles, during our time zones, where we choose....other wise we'd be limited by an artificial mechanics that is our of our control.....more over unfortunately unless you had and EVE player aligned to your corp/ whatever you'd never experience the full FW experience as X corp would specifically form a contract for Y Dust group and no one else.
GÇ£How does this all work then?GÇ¥
GÇ£Like so Choirboy.GÇ¥
- Mila to Kador, Sub Zero Club, Shoashu Sasaanko
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3389
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 00:01:00 -
[81] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:maybe a more constructive thing to push on would be to make DUST FW less of a schizoid human random number generator and allow EVE pilots to direct mercs at needed support hotspots.
Just a thought.
That would have a more positive effect than any ranting about a 15% ISK agent.
Give EVE players the ability to spend their LP to forcefully start a battle at a specific location They shouldn't have to do that. This sort of functionality needs to be in the hands of Dust players. We need to be able to set up our own battles, during our time zones, where we choose....other wise we'd be limited by an artificial mechanics that is our of our control.....more over unfortunately unless you had and EVE player aligned to your corp/ whatever you'd never experience the full FW experience as X corp would specifically form a contract for Y Dust group and no one else.
Fair enough, though if I as a Dust player was going to put out LP in the attempt to trigger a battle, I wouldn't want it to be populated with randoms who could screw it up and make me lose out on my investment. Currently if you're highly leveled in EVE FacWar you get A LOT of LP for dropping an Orbital, so its more feasible to spend LP with the intent of making more. For Dust however our margins are much smaller....so we would need some other means to launch attacks.
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
6892
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 00:13:00 -
[82] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:maybe a more constructive thing to push on would be to make DUST FW less of a schizoid human random number generator and allow EVE pilots to direct mercs at needed support hotspots.
Just a thought.
That would have a more positive effect than any ranting about a 15% ISK agent.
Constructive? Sure.
Realistic? Absolutely not.
See, funny thing is that the 15% ISK agent is -actually happening- as opposed to the major overhaul to FW that was needed since it was released which will likely never happen due to it requiring development time which we've all unanimously accepted simply won't happen as long as Legion is in development.
So, let's continue to argue about something we can actually change as opposed to yet another repeated proposition for something that just ain't going to happen.
Important
Legion Transparency
Post Lv5
|
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
14106
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 00:23:00 -
[83] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:True Adamance wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:maybe a more constructive thing to push on would be to make DUST FW less of a schizoid human random number generator and allow EVE pilots to direct mercs at needed support hotspots.
Just a thought.
That would have a more positive effect than any ranting about a 15% ISK agent.
Give EVE players the ability to spend their LP to forcefully start a battle at a specific location They shouldn't have to do that. This sort of functionality needs to be in the hands of Dust players. We need to be able to set up our own battles, during our time zones, where we choose....other wise we'd be limited by an artificial mechanics that is our of our control.....more over unfortunately unless you had and EVE player aligned to your corp/ whatever you'd never experience the full FW experience as X corp would specifically form a contract for Y Dust group and no one else. Fair enough, though if I as a Dust player was going to put out LP in the attempt to trigger a battle, I wouldn't want it to be populated with randoms who could screw it up and make me lose out on my investment. Currently if you're highly leveled in EVE FacWar you get A LOT of LP for dropping an Orbital, so its more feasible to spend LP with the intent of making more. For Dust however our margins are much smaller....so we would need some other means to launch attacks.
Why are we not able to simply initiate attacks on districts when and where we choose? Or respond to the attacks of our counter part militia's?
As I see it why not allow players to either launch an attack on a specified district at which point generates a contract for a set amount of time 5-10 Mins that can be accepted by another team before being autofilled by match making.
Meaning if players want to launch specific and targeted strikes they must do so at intervals and risk another organised team competing against them, other wise they are either match made against X randoms or deployed with no opposition (much like how plexes can be flipped with no enemy even bothering to defend them).
Other wise players can que up to battles assigned to them by the AI/ Faction
GÇ£How does this all work then?GÇ¥
GÇ£Like so Choirboy.GÇ¥
- Mila to Kador, Sub Zero Club, Shoashu Sasaanko
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
3389
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 00:32:00 -
[84] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:True Adamance wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:maybe a more constructive thing to push on would be to make DUST FW less of a schizoid human random number generator and allow EVE pilots to direct mercs at needed support hotspots.
Just a thought.
That would have a more positive effect than any ranting about a 15% ISK agent.
Give EVE players the ability to spend their LP to forcefully start a battle at a specific location They shouldn't have to do that. This sort of functionality needs to be in the hands of Dust players. We need to be able to set up our own battles, during our time zones, where we choose....other wise we'd be limited by an artificial mechanics that is our of our control.....more over unfortunately unless you had and EVE player aligned to your corp/ whatever you'd never experience the full FW experience as X corp would specifically form a contract for Y Dust group and no one else. Fair enough, though if I as a Dust player was going to put out LP in the attempt to trigger a battle, I wouldn't want it to be populated with randoms who could screw it up and make me lose out on my investment. Currently if you're highly leveled in EVE FacWar you get A LOT of LP for dropping an Orbital, so its more feasible to spend LP with the intent of making more. For Dust however our margins are much smaller....so we would need some other means to launch attacks. Why are we not able to simply initiate attacks on districts when and where we choose? Or respond to the attacks of our counter part militia's? As I see it why not allow players to either launch an attack on a specified district at which point generates a contract for a set amount of time 5-10 Mins that can be accepted by another team before being autofilled by match making. Meaning if players want to launch specific and targeted strikes they must do so at intervals and risk another organised team competing against them, other wise they are either match made against X randoms or deployed with no opposition (much like how plexes can be flipped with no enemy even bothering to defend them). Other wise players can que up to battles assigned to them by the AI/ Faction
My concern is that if attacks can be freely launched with zero cost, people will only attack. So if everyone is waiting for someone to accept their attack order, no one is in random matchmaking, so who fills the empty slots when that 5-10 minute waiting period happens?
Hotfix Delta Sentinel eHP Calcs
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
14106
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 00:50:00 -
[85] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:
My concern is that if attacks can be freely launched with zero cost, people will only attack. So if everyone is waiting for someone to accept their attack order, no one is in random matchmaking, so who fills the empty slots when that 5-10 minute waiting period happens?
That's and issue I considered which is why I suggested the delay. Few non dedicated players are going to purposefully wait 10 minutes to attack a specific district, which is why any other form of Q-ing would result in players filling up those defensive contracts.
Moreover as stated Defensive Contracts could be specifically waited for and chosen by organised groups to prevent loss of SOV in specific systems.
However that's an imperfect model, something better could surely be iterated upon. Basically what I'm suggesting is to put more freedom and choice in the hands of players who want to be able to get seriously involved with FW, while keeping it simple for those who don't.
Farmers can come and go, picking up contracts in bulk letting them get their SP which dedicated militia groups can be targeting specific systems for offence or defence. Only issue is with the incredibly transient and pointless nature of what we do in Dust 514 these mechanics are solely based on players taking the time to actually care.
Owning a region in Dust is owning a smattering of random districts in random systems at a given time during the day...... it's not like we can actually flip systems/ planets for any meaningful length of time.
GÇ£How does this all work then?GÇ¥
GÇ£Like so Choirboy.GÇ¥
- Mila to Kador, Sub Zero Club, Shoashu Sasaanko
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