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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3380
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Posted - 2014.11.03 18:19:00 -
[1] - Quote
Meee One wrote:True Adamance wrote:Fantastic if I can't earn my FW content and prove I'm a loyalist then **** it I'm just going to buy it.
- Mantra of post 1.9 FW kiddies Boosters for FW are ok because it allows early access,ISK returns,and the most important thing is it's temporary. Meaning you have to keep getting boosters to keep the effect. This is how the agent is broken it's permanent. Everything permanent that CCP has offered so far has been low level,but this would be high level. But,if the agent worked like boosters... That wouldn't be as broken. It's the perminance that bothers me.
To be fair BPOs are also permanent and prevent ISK loss, and thus ISK gains go up.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3381
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Posted - 2014.11.03 19:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
One could even argue that a BPO Suits are more valuable than the 15% Market Agent, since every time you die in a BPO suit you're effectively making the amount you would have lost had you purchased that item with ISK. That being said, a BPO offers a 100% return on potential losses that the BPO avoids, and if we assume you die 5-10 times a math in a BPO suit, the savings add up quickly.
Market Agent however is only an additional 15% on basically salvage, since that's the only stuff you're going to want to sell. So in a given pub you're typically going to pick up 0-3 pieces of salvage, and get an additional 15% return on their value...opposed to a 100% return on every death in a BPO suit. The amount extra you make per match with that Agent from selling salvage is so inconsequentially small that it hardly constitutes "ERMERGERD P2W!". Faction Warfare is marginally more valuable due to a higher drop rate of salvage, but again, it's still probably less than what you save with a BPO.
I can really only see significant gains with an Agent in PC, where you're getting substantial amounts of salvage, and typically it's top tiered so its value is rather high. I'd actually tell someone who is newer to not even bother with the Agent and instead purchase a BPO suit because it's going to make them more money in the long run. The agent is probably more worth it if you're in PC a lot and expect to pick up a ton of salvage.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3384
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Posted - 2014.11.03 22:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:Update: Alright, we've established this isn't particularly pay to win, but increasing ISK returns through booster use should cause concern for teams that coordinate opposing FW deploys in order to boost ISK via ending matches fast with suicide cloning in starter suits. Unlike PC there is no initial price investment to start a match (i.e. clone packs). ISK boosting cannot currently be achieved due to LP items previously being unable to be sold. Now with NPC vendor and triple faction booster stacking abilities, players may be able to coordinate large farming efforts to generate large amounts of ISK with relative ease.
At the same time why would you farm LP with this method just to sell it to buy something with ISK? Granted the LP store has many holes in it in terms of what you can buy, but its also arguable that the Items you buy with LP are better than the items you buy with ISK. So...sure you can farm LP, then sell it for half its value to buy the ISK version of the thing you just sold? I think in this case the Vendor isn't the issue, but more so the concern about gaining large amounts of LP very quickly.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3384
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Posted - 2014.11.03 22:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote: EDIT: This isn't like Eve's Plex system where I give CCP money for an in-game card that I can then sell to another player and receive ISK. ISK is being generated from thin air at a rate higher for a player who pays as opposed to a player who doesn't.
But in that closed system it's the same effect. If Dust actually had a player market where inflation was a factor, then yes, making ISK out of thin air would be bad. But in a system where items are generated by the NPC and prices are locked, inflation is far less of a factor. So if you take it as a closed system, the person who buys the PLEX can make ISK with basically zero effort, it doesn't matter where the money comes from in a close system. He has purchased ISK with real world cash, which is something that the other player cannot do unless he also purchases a PLEX and sells it. If someone buys AUR, they can make ISK with basically zero effort. Buying ISK and AUR are effectively the same.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3384
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Posted - 2014.11.03 22:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Jadek Menaheim wrote:Update: Alright, we've established this isn't particularly pay to win, but increasing ISK returns through booster use should cause concern for teams that coordinate opposing FW deploys in order to boost ISK via ending matches fast with suicide cloning in starter suits. Unlike PC there is no initial price investment to start a match (i.e. clone packs). ISK boosting cannot currently be achieved due to LP items previously being unable to be sold. Now with NPC vendor and triple faction booster stacking abilities, players may be able to coordinate large farming efforts to generate large amounts of ISK with relative ease. At the same time why would you farm LP with this method just to sell it to buy something with ISK? Granted the LP store has many holes in it in terms of what you can buy, but its also arguable that the Items you buy with LP are better than the items you buy with ISK. So...sure you can farm LP, then sell it for half its value to buy the ISK version of the thing you just sold? I think in this case the Vendor isn't the issue, but more so the concern about gaining large amounts of LP very quickly. Going by the current math, players with high FW levels are going to earn a minimum 600k every match after they sell their goods--this applies to all players on both teams as LP payouts don't scale with player contribution. If a corp wanted to gain ISK for whatever purpose they could stick 32 players in a match and gain about 20 million ISK for the corp each match. This ability to create ISK out of thin air so quickly really devalues it and the impact of resource scarcity.
True but why would you sell it if you can just use the items you buy with the LP? I mean you say 'whatever reason' but the only thing ISK is good for is either buying suits/weapons or launching PC attacks. The first doesnt make sense as I outline before because its more beneficial to just keep the items you buy with LP. In the second, sure you can launch an attack, but you still need suits and weapons to fight the attack, which circles back to the first point of.....just use the LP to buy the suits then.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3384
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Posted - 2014.11.03 22:44:00 -
[6] - Quote
For the record I'm not really a fan of the triple stacking boosters for FW for the purpose of it providing too much LP gain. I just don't think the LP to ISK conversion is problematic because it's not particularly efficient.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3384
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Posted - 2014.11.03 22:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:True but why would you sell it if you can just use the items you buy with the LP? I mean you say 'whatever reason' but the only thing ISK is good for is either buying suits/weapons or launching PC attacks. The first doesnt make sense as I outline before because its more beneficial to just keep the items you buy with LP. In the second, sure you can launch an attack, but you still need suits and weapons to fight the attack, which circles back to the first point of.....just use the LP to buy the suits then. A lot of game mechanics seems borked by this diminished nature of resource scarcity. It's the ISK generating potential over pubs and PC via farmers that seems problematic. Who says the same people farming have to be the A team that fights your PC battles?
I suppose that's a fair point in that ISK is more liquid than LP or assets.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3385
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Posted - 2014.11.03 23:01:00 -
[8] - Quote
Also a fair point in that it's not perfectly closed, but to that I ask....to what degree does this actually affect things? I guess I find it interesting that people are very up in arms about the Agent, yet so few were upset about the reintroduction of BPOs, which I feel have a MUCH larger effect on ISK generation than the Agent does.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3385
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Posted - 2014.11.03 23:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote: Also a fair point in that it's not perfectly closed, but to that I ask....to what degree does this actually affect things? I guess I find it interesting that people are very up in arms about the Agent, yet so few were upset about the reintroduction of BPOs, which I feel have a MUCH larger effect on ISK generation than the Agent does.
I've always been up in arms about BPO's being anything but Vanity items. Thing is, I learned my lesson trying to convince people because Dusters don't give a **** about Eve's economy; they don't notice the effects they have on it.
Oh I know you have, but public outcry in general is much greater for the Agent but not so much over BPOs. It's just interesting how people perceive things even though their effects are the same.
Here's a thought...what if LP items could be sold but not for ISK. Instead they had the same conversion rate (20-50%) but could be 'traded' for other faction's LP? This keeps the LP in the FW asset cycle but stills allows the purchase of LP from other stores via conversion?
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3386
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Posted - 2014.11.03 23:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
Jadek Menaheim wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote: Also a fair point in that it's not perfectly closed, but to that I ask....to what degree does this actually affect things? I guess I find it interesting that people are very up in arms about the Agent, yet so few were upset about the reintroduction of BPOs, which I feel have a MUCH larger effect on ISK generation than the Agent does.
It goes along with the idea the Leither brought up in the podcast that the introduction of these things now decreases the potential of a meaningful EVE integration down the line. It may also signify the higher likelihood of an asset reset down the line in Legion as caution is thrown to the wind now.
I've always felt that assets will be wipe upon Legion conversion, and honestly I think after the PC ISK faucet, that already had to happen, even before 1.9
SP, BPOs, ect....yeah those need to transfer, but dispoable assets and ISK/LP? I think we passed the point of where transfering those would be appropriate long ago.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3388
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Posted - 2014.11.03 23:24:00 -
[11] - Quote
Well yeah Aeon, the lack of a complete LP store is extremely problematic. I know its a big workload, but especially with 1.9, we need it more than ever.
I would quote EVE (And forgive me if I"m totally off base here) but I seem to recall that doing Incursions earned you CONCORD LP, which can be then used to 'purchase' LP from any faction you want. So in this case you would sell your LP items for CONCORD (or whatever neutral party) LP which could then be use to 'purchase' from the faction of your choice.
EDIT:
Quote:EDIT: By the way did you know PC territories gives POS bonuses in Molden Heath? Just in case you weren't aware, I know a lot of Eve Players don't bother to take advantage of that what with Low Sec being in a perpetual bad state.
True, but I think only one planet in Skarkon has a moon that is even worth anything in the entire region, and the owners aren't even using the proper SI to take advantage of it Q_Q
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3389
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Posted - 2014.11.03 23:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Well yeah Aeon, the lack of a complete LP store is extremely problematic. I know its a big workload, but especially with 1.9, we need it more than ever. I would quote EVE (And forgive me if I"m totally off base here) but I seem to recall that doing Incursions earned you CONCORD LP, which can be then used to 'purchase' LP from any faction you want. So in this case you would sell your LP items for CONCORD (or whatever neutral party) LP which could then be use to 'purchase' from the faction of your choice. EDIT: Quote:EDIT: By the way did you know PC territories gives POS bonuses in Molden Heath? Just in case you weren't aware, I know a lot of Eve Players don't bother to take advantage of that what with Low Sec being in a perpetual bad state. True, but I think only one planet in Skarkon has a moon that is even worth anything in the entire region, and the owners aren't even using the proper SI to take advantage of it Q_Q Hell would you really want to live next to those pirates from Calamitous Intent?
Fun Fact: OSG was the original owners of Skarkon when Uprising launched. Held onto it for a fair while too. Nice place too, clean air, nice schools for the kids, really great HOA too. But yeah the neighborhoods around there? *shudders*
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3389
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Posted - 2014.11.03 23:51:00 -
[13] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:maybe a more constructive thing to push on would be to make DUST FW less of a schizoid human random number generator and allow EVE pilots to direct mercs at needed support hotspots.
Just a thought.
That would have a more positive effect than any ranting about a 15% ISK agent.
Give EVE players the ability to spend their LP to forcefully start a battle at a specific location
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3389
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Posted - 2014.11.04 00:01:00 -
[14] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:maybe a more constructive thing to push on would be to make DUST FW less of a schizoid human random number generator and allow EVE pilots to direct mercs at needed support hotspots.
Just a thought.
That would have a more positive effect than any ranting about a 15% ISK agent.
Give EVE players the ability to spend their LP to forcefully start a battle at a specific location They shouldn't have to do that. This sort of functionality needs to be in the hands of Dust players. We need to be able to set up our own battles, during our time zones, where we choose....other wise we'd be limited by an artificial mechanics that is our of our control.....more over unfortunately unless you had and EVE player aligned to your corp/ whatever you'd never experience the full FW experience as X corp would specifically form a contract for Y Dust group and no one else.
Fair enough, though if I as a Dust player was going to put out LP in the attempt to trigger a battle, I wouldn't want it to be populated with randoms who could screw it up and make me lose out on my investment. Currently if you're highly leveled in EVE FacWar you get A LOT of LP for dropping an Orbital, so its more feasible to spend LP with the intent of making more. For Dust however our margins are much smaller....so we would need some other means to launch attacks.
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention
3389
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Posted - 2014.11.04 00:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:True Adamance wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:maybe a more constructive thing to push on would be to make DUST FW less of a schizoid human random number generator and allow EVE pilots to direct mercs at needed support hotspots.
Just a thought.
That would have a more positive effect than any ranting about a 15% ISK agent.
Give EVE players the ability to spend their LP to forcefully start a battle at a specific location They shouldn't have to do that. This sort of functionality needs to be in the hands of Dust players. We need to be able to set up our own battles, during our time zones, where we choose....other wise we'd be limited by an artificial mechanics that is our of our control.....more over unfortunately unless you had and EVE player aligned to your corp/ whatever you'd never experience the full FW experience as X corp would specifically form a contract for Y Dust group and no one else. Fair enough, though if I as a Dust player was going to put out LP in the attempt to trigger a battle, I wouldn't want it to be populated with randoms who could screw it up and make me lose out on my investment. Currently if you're highly leveled in EVE FacWar you get A LOT of LP for dropping an Orbital, so its more feasible to spend LP with the intent of making more. For Dust however our margins are much smaller....so we would need some other means to launch attacks. Why are we not able to simply initiate attacks on districts when and where we choose? Or respond to the attacks of our counter part militia's? As I see it why not allow players to either launch an attack on a specified district at which point generates a contract for a set amount of time 5-10 Mins that can be accepted by another team before being autofilled by match making. Meaning if players want to launch specific and targeted strikes they must do so at intervals and risk another organised team competing against them, other wise they are either match made against X randoms or deployed with no opposition (much like how plexes can be flipped with no enemy even bothering to defend them). Other wise players can que up to battles assigned to them by the AI/ Faction
My concern is that if attacks can be freely launched with zero cost, people will only attack. So if everyone is waiting for someone to accept their attack order, no one is in random matchmaking, so who fills the empty slots when that 5-10 minute waiting period happens?
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