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Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
6888
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Posted - 2014.11.03 22:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:A common definition of Pay-to-Win is "items of greater quality can only be bought for real money". This scenario does not violate that principle.
On the ISK generation, I believe that the community has asked for a way to make ISK losses in FW more bearable, and I think with the fact that you need to purchase the LP items first, combined with a lower than market price resell value, that this will only offset losses for the most part. I think what VikingKong was getting at is that the Market Agent presents a situation in which players with AUR will be the only ones who can get that advantage of 50% resell value (assuming they maxed out their Loyalty Rank as well). This presents a situation in which players with this agent will suffer less loses in terms of ISK than players without it. So they will make less ISK per second. Sounds like buying time.
Which is, by your very definition, Pay-to-Win.
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Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
6890
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Posted - 2014.11.03 22:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:
Really reaching up your ass to justify this as pay to win.
Until ISK cannot buy items of similar quality to Aurum for in-gameplay effect it is not pay to win. In all cases aurum only accelerates the availability of items. aurum only accelerates the availability of more ISk. If you were required to buy the agent for aurum in order to earn ISK then it would be pay to win.
saving time is not pay to win. Nice try.
When CCP puts officer weapons/dropsuits/modules up for aurum (and not for ISK/LP) THEN we will have achieved pay to win
It's a premium available only to players that provide the expendable income to receive a permanent in-game bonus that non-paying players cannot receive. SP was one thing; I was against Boosters (especially Omega Boosters) until I sat down and thought about the impact they really have on a Level 5 maximum skill system like we have... But ISK is a game-changer.
If this isn't a problem then why the hell did we nyx PC income through clone generation? So by adding in this "if you pay, you'll get more ISK when you sell stuff" we're basically admitting that the ISK generation was never the problem to begin with and this is a service that is -ONLY- available to players who shell out liquid cash to obtain.
And I'll continue my counter-argument to your rude ass with Pokey's quote:
Pokey Dravon wrote:
But in that closed system it's the same effect. If Dust actually had a player market where inflation was a factor, then yes, making ISK out of thin air would be bad. But in a system where items are generated by the NPC and prices are locked, inflation is far less of a factor. So if you take it as a closed system, the person who buys the PLEX can make ISK with basically zero effort, it doesn't matter where the money comes from in a close system. He has purchased ISK with real world cash, which is something that the other player cannot do unless he also purchases a PLEX and sells it. If someone buys AUR, they can make ISK with basically zero effort. Buying ISK and AUR are effectively the same.
It's not -QUITE- a closed system. Dust 514 doesn't have an in-game player economy but Eve Online -does- and as long as FW and PC are connected to Eve Online, I have an issue with this. It's basically allowing players who pay to actively interfere with the game's economic balance by way of a premium (multiple, in Dust 514) and while it's not as direct as "I'm spending real money to cover my losses in Eve Online" it might as well be due to the far-reaching/long-term effects.
A player buys this agent, spends Aurum on BPOs, etc; he no longer has to pay for low-level losses and makes a profit on any items he sells; more so then non-paying players. He then goes and spends the majority of his time in FW, which has an active effect on Eve Online's FW system through territorial control using ISK that he saved through BPO's in Public Matches and increased gains from selling to the agent... Therefore, affecting Eve's player economy by spending -actual money- and attaining more in-game currency than someone who hadn't.
See my issue now?
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Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
6891
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Posted - 2014.11.03 23:04:00 -
[3] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:
Also a fair point in that it's not perfectly closed, but to that I ask....to what degree does this actually affect things? I guess I find it interesting that people are very up in arms about the Agent, yet so few were upset about the reintroduction of BPOs, which I feel have a MUCH larger effect on ISK generation than the Agent does.
I've always been up in arms about BPO's being anything but Vanity items. Thing is, I learned my lesson trying to convince people because Dusters don't give a **** about Eve's economy; they don't notice the effects they have on it.
EDIT: I mean, don't get me wrong, they're available so I'll buy/use them as much as the next guy... I don't like it though.
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Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
6891
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Posted - 2014.11.03 23:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
Also a fair point in that it's not perfectly closed, but to that I ask....to what degree does this actually affect things? I guess I find it interesting that people are very up in arms about the Agent, yet so few were upset about the reintroduction of BPOs, which I feel have a MUCH larger effect on ISK generation than the Agent does.
I've always been up in arms about BPO's being anything but Vanity items. Thing is, I learned my lesson trying to convince people because Dusters don't give a **** about Eve's economy; they don't notice the effects they have on it. Oh I know you have, but public outcry in general is much greater for the Agent but not so much over BPOs. It's just interesting how people perceive things even though their effects are the same. Here's a thought...what if LP items could be sold but not for ISK. Instead they had the same conversion rate (20-50%) but could be 'traded' for other faction's LP? This keeps the LP in the FW asset cycle but stills allows the purchase of LP from other stores via conversion?
Problem is that there are items missing from the FW stores. If those items were introduced and parity was established (I think it's silly that I can't get damage mods from Gal FW Store) or if ISK was given out as well; then I -might- be down for it.
Breakin Stuff wrote:
If every DUST ISK got dropped into EVE's economy TODAY, and I mean EVERY SINGLE ISK all at the same moment.
We'd notice a minor economic bump that settled out back to normal within three hours.
I don't think you comprehend how little economic power DUST players have compared to even a twenty-day-old EVE newbie running the Level 2-3 ISK printer.
Oh: If you have 2 billion in your wallet you can afford to buy my fitted Kronos. One of thirty ships I have on one character.
Yeah, Breakin, we get it - you're an Eve Player. Coincidentally, I am too, been playing for seven years.
And FW territory control in Dust 514 has a -major- impact on FW in Eve Online. It's not about how much Dusters have in their wallet; try to think outside of your little box while you're being contradictory and conceited.
EDIT: By the way did you know PC territories gives POS bonuses in Molden Heath? Just in case you weren't aware, I know a lot of Eve Players don't bother to take advantage of that what with Low Sec being in a perpetual bad state.
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Aeon Amadi
Fatal Absolution
General Tso's Alliance
6892
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Posted - 2014.11.04 00:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:maybe a more constructive thing to push on would be to make DUST FW less of a schizoid human random number generator and allow EVE pilots to direct mercs at needed support hotspots.
Just a thought.
That would have a more positive effect than any ranting about a 15% ISK agent.
Constructive? Sure.
Realistic? Absolutely not.
See, funny thing is that the 15% ISK agent is -actually happening- as opposed to the major overhaul to FW that was needed since it was released which will likely never happen due to it requiring development time which we've all unanimously accepted simply won't happen as long as Legion is in development.
So, let's continue to argue about something we can actually change as opposed to yet another repeated proposition for something that just ain't going to happen.
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