DUST Search - SCRAMBLER RIFLE HEAT REDUCTION?

Fizzer XCIV wrote:

CCP Rattati wrote:

If someone just bothers to calculate the old heat build up vs shots fired before and after, and reverse engineer a new heat buildup proposal this should be an easy fix

Problem is, the heat buildup mechanics of the ScR aren't really known by the community. Its pretty vague, and in my opinion, overly complex. I literally cannot give you accurate data.

What we do know is that:
GÇóIt is affected by time, fire rate, and shots fired. How these affect it, and how much they affect it is pretty much completely unknown.
GÇóGenerally, as the weapon is fired faster, it takes more shots to overheat. What I mean by this is that firing at say, 560rpm might allow you to fire off 1 more shot compared to if you were to fire at 520rpm, or something like that. We have no idea why, but we generally think that part of the ScRs heat mechanics right be heat/time, somehow.

We really just don't know anything other than "it is firing about 14-15 shots now, and it used to fire about 18-19 shots".

In fact, if there is some rhyme or reason to the heat mechanics of the ScR, could you share it with us? And, if it does happen to be something overly complex, like it seems to be, could you please change it to something a bit easier to understand.
Preferably something simple like heat per shot buildup that allows exactly 18 shots to be fired before overheating, so that we don't have to continue estimating the efficacy of our weapon.

Tl;dr
We don't know what is going on, but would like to know, so that we may provide accurate feedback.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Y-BLOCK BioCyberDevelopment 23	Posted - 2014.10.10 17:39:00 - [1] - Quote Will there be any heat reduction for the semi-auto Scrambler Rifle any time soon? Now that You've Tasted my Mutton.. How do you Like it!?!
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 446	Posted - 2014.10.10 17:48:00 - [2] - Quote Just use the TacAR. Its in a way better place than the ScR right now. I've given up on the Scrambler, turbo faggots got it broken.
Atiim 12857	Posted - 2014.10.10 17:58:00 - [3] - Quote How much damage can they get off before overheating? The 1st Matari Commando -HAND
Alena Ventrallis Vengeance Unbound Dark Taboo 1909	Posted - 2014.10.10 18:09:00 - [4] - Quote Atiim wrote: How much damage can they get off before overheating? At AmAssault level 3, I can go from 45 shots to 29 shots, on average. Listen to my muscle memory Contemplate what I've been clinging to Forty-six and two ahead of me
gauntlet44 LbowDeep Heaven84 Devils General Tso's Alliance 147	Posted - 2014.10.10 18:12:00 - [5] - Quote enough for an assist but not enough for a kill i too have started putting my scramblers back in the closet. mostly for losing 1v1 when i did not previously i wish i could WOW you with the math of it, but alas i cannot. also play as strangeland stranger, larlac theest, gauntlett5487, and balacs sixkin
Y-BLOCK BioCyberDevelopment 23	Posted - 2014.10.10 19:13:00 - [6] - Quote Atiim wrote: How much damage can they get off before overheating? I am skilled to level 5 in both Amaar Assault & Scrambler Rifle, but can only get 18 to 20 rounds off before overheating. Before Delta I was firing at the very least 27 rounds off before over heating, and at that time I was only skilled to level 4 in Amaar Assault! Now that You've Tasted my Mutton.. How do you Like it!?!
Denchlad 7 Dead Man's Game 711	Posted - 2014.10.10 20:29:00 - [7] - Quote Y-BLOCK wrote: Atiim wrote: How much damage can they get off before overheating? I am skilled to level 5 in both Amaar Assault & Scrambler Rifle, but can only get 18 to 20 rounds off before overheating. Before Delta I was firing at the very least 27 rounds off before over heating, and at that time I was only skilled to level 4 in Amaar Assault! No human could get more than 25. I managed 25 rarely but 24 was my average. About 19 shots now with Amarr Assault 5 Scrambler Rifle 5. The Connoisseur of Weapons. 19/19 L5 P1. "GET BACK HERE YOU SCRUB" - Lorelei Zee 2014
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 448	Posted - 2014.10.10 20:44:00 - [8] - Quote Atiim wrote: How much damage can they get off before overheating? Without any Amarr Assault skills. 14-15 shots, or about 900-1000 damage depending on how fast you can fire and the tier of the rifle. Honestly, getting a kill on anything other than starter fits is unnecessarily difficult like this. With Amarr Assault to V. 18-19 shots, or about 1200-1300 damage. Again depending on how fast you can fire, and their tier of the rifle. Enough to kill, but an Assault suit shouldn't be needed to make a weapon viable against anything but a starter fit. I've completely stopped using the ScR. TacAR is just so much better, even with Amassault to 5.
Halla Murr Skullbreakers 35	Posted - 2014.10.10 21:21:00 - [9] - Quote At Operation 4 on my scout I can usually volley down most mediums and will drop many heavies to roughly half armour before I overheat/switch fast enough to my sidearm. I honestly don't know what people are complaining about for the standard ScR. The assault is terrible, but the regular ScR is still better than the TacAR for what it does: still more accurate and more versatile, though the damage profile is worse. Oh, and my AR skills are Op 5, Sharpshooter 3, so actually better than the ScR. Main of Kallas Hallytyr. ADS, Logistics, Scout, Commando and Assault.
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 448	Posted - 2014.10.10 21:54:00 - [10] - Quote Halla Murr wrote: At Operation 4 on my scout I can usually volley down most mediums and will drop many heavies to roughly half armour before I overheat/switch fast enough to my sidearm. I honestly don't know what people are complaining about for the standard ScR. The assault is terrible, but the regular ScR is still better than the TacAR for what it does: still more accurate and more versatile, though the damage profile is worse. Oh, and my AR skills are Op 5, Sharpshooter 3, so actually better than the ScR. On an Amarr Assault, the suit that is meant to the best suit to use a Scrambler Rifle on, without question. A suit that I when I use, I should always choose the ScR over the TacAR, without even having to think about it. On this suit, I would rather use the TacAR because: GÇóIts easier to fit. Even with Fitting Optimization V on the ScR, the Duvolle is easier to fit. GÇóIt does more damage before I have to stop firing, something the Amarr Assault skill should switch around completely, and by a wide margin. GÇóIt has a better damage profile. It just does. I don't want to hear "oh its just more specialized". Yeah, its specialized, but more armor damage is just better, and we both know it. GÇóBetter Hipfire. I don't think I need to explain the virtues of better Hipfire accuracy in a game where 90% of the combat takes place within 25m. GÇóWith Sharpshooter, the kick is the same, if not better. And with all the point I won't be spending on ScR fitting Optimization, I can max this skill no problem. GÇóIMO, the extra damage on the TacAR outweighs the extra range on the ScR. Like I pointed out earlier, 90% of the combat in this games happens at less than 25m, so damage is better. IMO, at least. The one real benefit the ScR is its charge function, but now that you can only pull of 1-2 extra shots after a charge shot the volley attack is severely gimped as well, and only allows about 450 damage before overheat. Which brings me to my next point... GÇóReloading is better than overheating. It takes less time, it allows jumping, switching weapons, sprinting away, and doesn't cause the user any damage. I'd rather reload any day than overheat. Literally he only reason to use the ScR over the TacAR nowadays is to save cash. But there are better ways to save cash...

Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 248	Posted - 2014.10.10 23:45:00 - [11] - Quote I can't agree with every point Fizzer, but I can agree with quite a few. ScR is in a bad spot right now. Although to be honest -- I'm happier now than before delta. The autofire controller spam ruined everyone's day...

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 8563	Posted - 2014.10.11 00:27:00 - [12] - Quote It's enterily possible "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Zindorak G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance 1063	Posted - 2014.10.11 00:34:00 - [13] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Just use the TacAR. Its in a way better place than the ScR right now. I've given up on the Scrambler, turbo faggots got it broken. Yea even AScR is better and that even sucks Pokemon master and Tekken Lord Gk0 Scout yay :)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 5697	Posted - 2014.10.11 01:11:00 - [14] - Quote Halla Murr wrote: At Operation 4 on my scout I can usually volley down most mediums and will drop many heavies to roughly half armour before I overheat/switch fast enough to my sidearm. I honestly don't know what people are complaining about for the standard ScR. The assault is terrible, but the regular ScR is still better than the TacAR for what it does: still more accurate and more versatile, though the damage profile is worse. Oh, and my AR skills are Op 5, Sharpshooter 3, so actually better than the ScR. o/ Halla I'd encourage you to give the ASCR another whirl. It's pretty solid now :-) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley
Atiim 12864	Posted - 2014.10.11 01:22:00 - [15] - Quote According to CCP Rattati, they're currently reviewing the SCR's reduced heat-sink under the HF Delta: Known Issues thread, which implies that the reduced heat-sink is actually a glitch. If someone could create a video comparing the pre-Delta heat buildup to the current heat build up, the verification of this glitch will happen much faster. The 1st Matari Commando -HAND

CCP Rattati C C P C C P Alliance 8566	Posted - 2014.10.11 01:45:00 - [16] - Quote If someone just bothers to calculate the old heat build up vs shots fired before and after, and reverse engineer a new heat buildup proposal this should be an easy fix "As well as stupid, Rattati is incredibly slow and accident-prone, and cannot even swim"

Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 2847	Posted - 2014.10.11 01:49:00 - [17] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: If someone just bothers to calculate the old heat build up vs shots fired before and after, and reverse engineer a new heat buildup proposal this should be an easy fix After a charge, I was able to get about 12ish or 15, somewhere in that ballpark. FAs official perv and lech. My dream is to turn 80 and become a dirty old man chasing skirts.
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 451	Posted - 2014.10.11 02:39:00 - [18] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: If someone just bothers to calculate the old heat build up vs shots fired before and after, and reverse engineer a new heat buildup proposal this should be an easy fix Problem is, the heat buildup mechanics of the ScR aren't really known by the community. Its pretty vague, and in my opinion, overly complex. I literally cannot give you accurate data. What we do know is that: GÇóIt is affected by time, fire rate, and shots fired. How these affect it, and how much they affect it is pretty much completely unknown. GÇóGenerally, as the weapon is fired faster, it takes more shots to overheat. What I mean by this is that firing at say, 560rpm might allow you to fire off 1 more shot compared to if you were to fire at 520rpm, or something like that. We have no idea why, but we generally think that part of the ScRs heat mechanics right be heat/time, somehow. We really just don't know anything other than "it is firing about 14-15 shots now, and it used to fire about 18-19 shots". In fact, if there is some rhyme or reason to the heat mechanics of the ScR, could you share it with us? And, if it does happen to be something overly complex, like it seems to be, could you please change it to something a bit easier to understand. Preferably something simple like heat per shot buildup that allows exactly 18 shots to be fired before overheating, so that we don't have to continue estimating the efficacy of our weapon. Tl;dr We don't know what is going on, but would like to know, so that we may provide accurate feedback.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 248	Posted - 2014.10.11 02:51:00 - [19] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: If someone just bothers to calculate the old heat build up vs shots fired before and after, and reverse engineer a new heat buildup proposal this should be an easy fix That would be easier if we knew exactly how the mechanic was designed. Is it based on shots fired or time spent firing? What is the cooldown rate (in percent with 100 being overheat) before and after? Is the heat buildup linear (each shot fired is worth x heat) or weighted (each shot fired modifed by current heat levels is worth x heat) Is heat applied after the shot is fired as opposed to when a shot is fired (this would explain how lag could allow someone to shoot more shots when firing faster) Etc...
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1952	Posted - 2014.10.11 03:07:00 - [20] - Quote Gonna go test this again, I am pretty sure I was able to get off the same amount of shots as before using amarr assault with maxed skills. Will post back here if I notice anything out of the ordinary. (Not that I am a pro Amarr player or anything, I just feel I have a keen eye for changes) "Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones" "Guns for show, Knives for a pro" MY LIFE FOR AIUR!

Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 452	Posted - 2014.10.11 03:21:00 - [21] - Quote CommanderBolt wrote: Gonna go test this again, I am pretty sure I was able to get off the same amount of shots as before using amarr assault with maxed skills. Will post back here if I notice anything out of the ordinary. (Not that I am a pro Amarr player or anything, I just feel I have a keen eye for changes) That's what I've noticed too. With Amarr Assault to level 5, it overheats just as fast as it used to without any Amarr Assault skills. This leads me to believe that, somehow, the heat generation of the ScR was increased by about 25%.
Hector Carson BLACK MAGES INC. 24	Posted - 2014.10.11 03:25:00 - [22] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Just use the TacAR. Its in a way better place than the ScR right now. I've given up on the Scrambler, turbo faggots got it broken. just to inform you, thanks to the Turbo faggots TacAR may get nerfed next Death to all
Fizzer XCIV Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 453	Posted - 2014.10.11 03:48:00 - [23] - Quote Hector Carson wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Just use the TacAR. Its in a way better place than the ScR right now. I've given up on the Scrambler, turbo faggots got it broken. just to inform you, thanks to the Turbo faggots TacAR may get nerfed next I figured they'd flock to the TacAR. Huh. Well I guess that's what happens when you have a weapon with almost all the advantages that the ScR had and a few it didn't have, but none of the drawbacks, you get a scum magnet. In many ways, the current TarAR is actually a more appealing target for modded controller users than the ScR ever was... Reloads instead of overheating, allowing much better hit and runs. Better Hipfire for a more friendly full-auto experience. More familiar/common RoF, that is much more compatible with modded controllers. Lol. That backfired, huh?
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 7	Posted - 2014.10.11 05:01:00 - [24] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: Problem is, the heat buildup mechanics of the ScR aren't really known by the community. Its pretty vague, and in my opinion, overly complex. I literally cannot give you accurate data. What we do know is that: GÇóIt is affected by time, fire rate, and shots fired. How these affect it, and how much they affect it is pretty much completely unknown. GÇóGenerally, as the weapon is fired faster, it takes more shots to overheat. What I mean by this is that firing at say, 560rpm might allow you to fire off 1 more shot compared to if you were to fire at 520rpm, or something like that. We have no idea why, but we generally think that part of the ScRs heat mechanics right be heat/time, somehow. We really just don't know anything other than "it is firing about 14-15 shots now, and it used to fire about 18-19 shots". In fact, if there is some rhyme or reason to the heat mechanics of the ScR, could you share it with us? And, if it does happen to be something overly complex, like it seems to be, could you please change it to something a bit easier to understand. Preferably something simple like heat per shot buildup that allows exactly 18 shots to be fired before overheating, so that we don't have to continue estimating the efficacy of our weapon. Tl;dr We don't know what is going on, but would like to know, so that we may provide accurate feedback. Fizzer XCIV wrote: That's what I've noticed too. With Amarr Assault to level 5, it overheats just as fast as it used to without any Amarr Assault skills. This leads me to believe that, somehow, the heat generation of the ScR was increased by about 25%. (trimmed quotes a little because bloated quotes are bad) AFAIK, it's been generally accepted that the Scrambler Rifle's heat buildup is actually per second. It also handily explains why firing faster lets you fire more shots before overheating- the heat limit is per second, and not per shot, so firing more shots per second gives the same heat buildup but increased damage output. My best guess is that the heat buildup per second mechanic is also tied to the rate of fire value, and the RoF change is actually what has increased the heat buildup. When considering weapons like the HMG, blaster turrets, and the laser rifle, this actually makes some sense; the catch is that it's pretty much impossible to tell, since the scrambler rifle is the only semi-auto weapon that can consistently overheat partway through a magazine (the Ion pistol doesn't really count, especially due to the auto-seize on charge shot). If I had to take a stab at how to fix the scrambler so it didn't suffer from this increased overheat issue, then I'd say to adjust heat buildup down the same percentage that the RoF was nerfed down. This keeps the heat buildup/RoF relationship the same proportion that it used to be prior to HF Delta.
Mobius Kaethis Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 1943	Posted - 2014.10.11 07:49:00 - [25] - Quote Hector Carson wrote: Fizzer XCIV wrote: Just use the TacAR. Its in a way better place than the ScR right now. I've given up on the Scrambler, turbo faggots got it broken. just to inform you, thanks to the Turbo faggots TacAR may get nerfed next What are you talking about? Very few of us use the TAR right now and I have yet to see someone firing it faster than I can with my mk.1 finger. Now with more evil.
Blueprint For Murder Immortal Guides 103	Posted - 2014.10.11 08:06:00 - [26] - Quote Mobius many of these guys are cheating with turbo mouse/controllers it is the reason their choices are tac ar and prev scr. The weapon works fine for me, but I don't expect to mow through someone by holding down my trigger. New, delicious, Soylent green the miracle food of high-energy plankton gathered from the oceans of the world.
man- bear pig D3ATH CARD 57	Posted - 2014.10.11 10:17:00 - [27] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: If someone just bothers to calculate the old heat build up vs shots fired before and after, and reverse engineer a new heat buildup proposal this should be an easy fix Change the heat build up to per shot for the SCR. We have been saying this. YES, WE KNOW IT IT NEEDS A CLIENT PATCH TO FIX. it doesn't change the fact that it's the only way to fix it. Even with real guns, semi-auto fire means that you need to control you shots, limiting them to around 2-4 round bursts. That's why semi-auto is great in games. You need to aim to actually get your shots to count, but when they do hit, they hit hard. With the current heat build up mechanic, you get the same heat build up when controlling your shots to a 2-3 round burst as you do if you spam the trigger. NO semi-auto rifle should operate like this. With the current mechanic of the rifle, you see an enemy at a med range, you aim, maybe charge up a shot, and you fire at him. After the first couple shots, he is gong to start evading your fire. With an automatic rifle, that's easy, just follow him with the right stick while holding the trigger. With a semi-auto, you need to re-adjust your aim, predict where he is going to go, and then fire a controlled burst. With the current mechanic you'll get 3 controlled bursts in a gun fight before it overheats on you. That's bullshit, unless he is an untanked scout or a shield heavy assault, he is going to get away. So how do you kill with the SCR? Same situation, except now you have to hit the fire button as fast as you can, firing off twice as many rounds at him, all the while USING THE SAME HAND to track him as he tries to get out of your line of fire. Was that seriously the idea you guys had when you decided to make the SCR a semi-auto rifle? That yea, it had a higher dps, but the only way you could use it was by firing it as if it was an automatic rifle, with the user's trigger finger being the automatic ROF aspect. It is a broken. This is why auto triggers were able to ruin this rifle. The only way it can be fixed is with a well needed client patch. If you don't want to do it that way, give us SCR users a skill under the SCR tree where we can increase the heat cool down by 10% each level. Multiple other rifles have the "Sharp shooter" skill, so adding another skill for us die hard SCR users wouldn't be too much to as for. Adding this skill wouldn't bring back the auto fire controllers, because they would still need to stop shooting for it to take effect.
Y-BLOCK BioCyberDevelopment 24	Posted - 2014.10.11 15:07:00 - [28] - Quote Fizzer XCIV wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: If someone just bothers to calculate the old heat build up vs shots fired before and after, and reverse engineer a new heat buildup proposal this should be an easy fix Problem is, the heat buildup mechanics of the ScR aren't really known by the community. Its pretty vague, and in my opinion, overly complex. I literally cannot give you accurate data. What we do know is that: GÇóIt is affected by time, fire rate, and shots fired. How these affect it, and how much they affect it is pretty much completely unknown. GÇóGenerally, as the weapon is fired faster, it takes more shots to overheat. What I mean by this is that firing at say, 560rpm might allow you to fire off 1 more shot compared to if you were to fire at 520rpm, or something like that. We have no idea why, but we generally think that part of the ScRs heat mechanics right be heat/time, somehow. We really just don't know anything other than "it is firing about 14-15 shots now, and it used to fire about 18-19 shots". In fact, if there is some rhyme or reason to the heat mechanics of the ScR, could you share it with us? And, if it does happen to be something overly complex, like it seems to be, could you please change it to something a bit easier to understand. Preferably something simple like heat per shot buildup that allows exactly 18 shots to be fired before overheating, so that we don't have to continue estimating the efficacy of our weapon. Tl;dr We don't know what is going on, but would like to know, so that we may provide accurate feedback. Well put!! Now that You've Tasted my Mutton.. How do you Like it!?!
matsumoto yuichi san The Elite Few Inc. The Methodical Alliance 63	Posted - 2014.10.11 15:40:00 - [29] - Quote it all stems from the whole heat / time on a semi auto weapon which just doesn't make sense.
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 1954	Posted - 2014.10.11 15:56:00 - [30] - Quote Ok guys I did some testing yesterday. Here are my results. Amarr Assault 5 / Scrambler 5 (On a Templar Amarr assault suit 'test bed') Test condition A - Using the weapon under normal circumstances while aiming. 1st attempt - Started with 45 rounds, after firing left with 26 rounds = total of 19 shots 2nd attempt - Started with 45 rounds, after firing left with 26 rounds = total of 19 shots 3rd attempt - Started with 45 rounds, after firing left with 26 rounds = total of 19 shots Test condition B - Using the weapon without ANY regard for aim and purely going for maximum fire rate. 1st attempt - Started with 45 rounds, after firing left with 24 rounds = total of 21 shots 2nd attempt - Started with 45 rounds, after firing left with 24 rounds = total of 21 shots 3rd attempt - Started with 45 rounds, after firing left with 24 rounds = total of 21 shots Conclusion - I would be very surprised if you can ever get more than 21 shots off, I swear I used to be able to get about 25 shots off previously. Scrambler 5 - on a NON amarr assault suit (Used Templar logistics which gives no bonus to scrambler overheat) Test condition A - Using the weapon under normal circumstances while aiming. 1st attempt - Started with 45 rounds, after firing left with 31 rounds = total of 14 shots 2nd attempt - Started with 45 rounds, after firing left with 31 rounds = total of 14 shots 3rd attempt - Started with 45 rounds, after firing left with 31 rounds = total of 14 shots Test condition B - Using the weapon without ANY regard for aim and purely going for maximum fire rate. 1st attempt - Started with 45 rounds, after firing left with 29 rounds = total of 16 shots 2nd attempt - Started with 45 rounds, after firing left with 29 rounds = total of 16 shots 3rd attempt - Started with 45 rounds, after firing left with 29 rounds = total of 16 shots Conclusion - I think I used to be able to fire about 17 shots under these conditions before. I was also very surprised at how consistent the test results were. It is clear that the scrambler has been nerfed in terms of amount of shots fired. "Also I think knives are a good idea, big f**k-off shiny ones" "Guns for show, Knives for a pro" MY LIFE FOR AIUR!



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